Saints fans jailed

[View From The Top]

I like the way you avoid the facts.

They same, obviously, can be said of yourself.

[StuRomseySaint]

IN MY OPINION! Peopl are allowed opinions and you are not always right like you think you are!

Well as VFTT and I have already pointed out. If it was the same old faces then the police would have 5 0'clock knocked them, not plastering them in local press and media trying to find out who the fook they were.

Do you not agree?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Whilst I agree I also feel that their sentences were harsh, especially those where it was a 1st offence.

I also know that custodial sentences were the target of the OB. By B-I-L was a DS on the case. I also know that they didn't get any one those they actually wanted.

I imagine then that is why it says in the article their investigations are continuing...

[StuRomseySaint]

I imagine then that is why it says in the article their investigations are continuing...

I think it is more a case of the 'people they actually wanted' were not stupid enough to cause trouble outside the stadium.

[Thedelldays]

I think it is more a case of the 'people they actually wanted' were not stupid enough to cause trouble outside the stadium.

so, you agree that those gone "down" are indeed..STUPID...?

stu...do you know any of them..? (not know of them..but know them)

[Ponty]

Stu, you're taking this way too personally. Surely how grown men go about their business, and the consequences thereof, is up to them?

[Loyal Saint]

What a total and utter over the top farce this all is.

The jail terms are ****ing ridiculous, as was the OB decision to let fans out at the same time, as was their cushy number of trawling through hours and hours of footage at tax payers expense

The whole thing stinks. Plenty of skates were lobbing missiles yet no punishment received. In fact I don’t remember too many Leeds fans getting locked up for throwing missiles at SMS and that was inside the ground.

Best wishes to the fellas involved

[StuRomseySaint]

so, you agree that those gone "down" are indeed..STUPID...?

stu...do you know any of them..? (not know of them..but know them)

Of course it was stupid!

Stupid actions by stupid people.

Stupid sentances by a stupid justice system.

There, how's about that for a nice balanced way to finish?

[aintforever]

The jail terms are ****ing ridiculous, as was the OB decision to let fans out at the same time, as was their cushy number of trawling through hours and hours of footage at tax payers expense


That's what annoys me the most, some fat arsed copper was sat here for days and days going through that CCTV footage - all at our expense.

God knows how many serious crimes were being committed while the lazy **** was sat there munching on doughnuts. I expect they needed a servere sentence to justify their obscene waste of money.

At least the Tories are gonna cut their overtime and hopefully there should be a few old bill on the dole in the coming months.

[up and away]

Might make other idiots think again before starting trouble at games, particularly the youth element.

They behaved like idiots, but these sentences do seem harsh when you read about rapists or paedo's who escape jail sentences (i personally know a convicted rapist who escaped jail).

I cannot believe so many on here could not fathom out beforehand that penalties for football related violence, automatically suffers harsher penalties. We have been so trouble free relatively to how things used to be, that many have forgotten how bad things were and the reason government guidelines to judges in these cases are so draconian. So a lot of fans forgot this and never realised the penalties involved, well they do now along with any other considering something similar.

[Thedelldays]

lol

nothing better than people on the saintsweb getting "outraged" with something to do (in any form) with saints

[Yeti]

Well as VFTT and I have already pointed out. If it was the same old faces then the police would have 5 0'clock knocked them, not plastering them in local press and media trying to find out who the fook they were.

Do you not agree?

Game, set and match SRS. New balls for SaintNeil90

[Dog]

On a serious note, how will all this effect our English hooligan league place, surely pushing for a place in europe, Stu?

[Bristol_Benji]

I agree, the sentences do appear on the outset to be quite high but most will be out in six months, if not earlier. I would imagine most will also have an option of being in an 'open prison' after a few months (meaning they go back at night, but spend the days on the outside), therefore i think 12months is fine. If it was 6 months, they'd be out in 3, and i personally wonder if that'd be enough of detterant for others.

The fact is, violence at football games used to be common. No one wants it to go back to those days so harsher penalities were accepted when they came in. St Marys has recently seen an increase in violence so this may stop that happening again. Perhaps.

[RedWillie]

I've said it before, all those involved had a choice...to get involved or walk home like the vast majority of us without getting involved.
They chose to get involved. All to easy to blame others for their actions in todays namby pamby, nannie state. It's the Police's fault, it's their parents fault, it's the Pompey fans fault, it's the Leeds fans fault, it's the clubs fault....utter, utter rubbish, it is no one's fault but their own.
So face facts and they should the consequences.

[Red and White Russ]

That's what annoys me the most, some fat arsed copper was sat here for days and days going through that CCTV footage - all at our expense.

God knows how many serious crimes were being committed while the lazy **** was sat there munching on doughnuts. I expect they needed a servere sentence to justify their obscene waste of money.

At least the Tories are gonna cut their overtime and hopefully there should be a few old bill on the dole in the coming months.

What a ridiculous statement. This isn't Starsky and Hutch you know. So the Tories cut expenditure to an already under maned police force, and this solves the problem does it?
Those guys got what they deserved. If they have jobs and families they should have acted more responsibly. I've got no sympathy for them.

[RedWillie]

absolutely, no defence for them. They chose to do it


What a ridiculous statement. This isn't Starsky and Hutch you know. So the Tories cut expenditure to an already under maned police force, and this solves the problem does it?
Those guys got what they deserved. If they have jobs and families they should have acted more responsibly. I've got no sympathy for them.

[StuRomseySaint]

What a ridiculous statement. This isn't Starsky and Hutch you know. So the Tories cut expenditure to an already under maned police force, and this solves the problem does it?
Those guys got what they deserved. If they have jobs and families they should have acted more responsibly. I've got no sympathy for them.

I think the point he is making is that if they have the time to launch an operation involving hundreds of hours of police officer time to jail 12 people for throwing coins, then surely they are indeed overstaffed and can be cut.

[SET]

Were they involved in a violent disorder? Yes
Were they caught? Yes

Tough luck, they committed a crime and are now getting their reward for it.

I've zero sympathy, if they don't like the thought of prison they could have just gone home after the game, like the thousands of us that did.

[Micky]

That's what annoys me the most, some fat arsed copper was sat here for days and days going through that CCTV footage - all at our expense.

God knows how many serious crimes were being committed while the lazy **** was sat there munching on doughnuts. I expect they needed a servere sentence to justify their obscene waste of money.

At least the Tories are gonna cut their overtime and hopefully there should be a few old bill on the dole in the coming months.

Sorry, but this made me laugh - do you honestly believe any of what you wrote...?

[Arcadian]

Oh dear. There are some fantastic barrack room lawyers on here. Remind me not to ask any of you to represent me next time I get involved in violent disorder.

The sentences have been reached based on the crimes they have been convicted of. You can moan about it all you want, but the judge is fully justified in doling out those sentences. They may seem harsh to some, but they are as much of a deterrent as anything else. Rightly so as well, the punishments seem to have made a few people on here sit up and take notice.

And read the report again - a pensioner needed stitches, someone else almost with a serious eye injury. Maybe minor to some, but if it was one of my family I'd be wanting some time dished out to the perpetrators.

Also does sound like the police allowed it to happen. Which makes the idiots who took part in the violence even more stupid! Oh look, police. Oh look, cameras. I know, let's start chucking things.

There seems to be a few people saying 'ignore the criminal damage thing, they're only being punished for chucking coins'. But as far as I've read, the actual details haven't been released. So let's ignore the chucking coins bit for now as well, until the truth comes out.

Oh and if that is all you are clinging to, just remember that throwing an object is showing intent to injure. It isn't the same as speeding, or even drink driving...these are reckless. Intent to cause harm is worse, it is more like speeding AND aiming your car at a pedestrian. It is also just as cowardly.

[dune]

I think the point he is making is that if they have the time to launch an operation involving hundreds of hours of police officer time to jail 12 people for throwing coins, then surely they are indeed overstaffed and can be cut.

The thing is these convictions will refresh the memories of those who forgot about Maze Hill. We won't be seeing a repeat of the trouble around the stadium for a very long time because of those sentences. Surely you must agree this is a good thing.

[rocknrollman no2]

Oh dear. There are some fantastic barrack room lawyers on here. Remind me not to ask any of you to represent me next time I get involved in violent disorder.

The sentences have been reached based on the crimes they have been convicted of. You can moan about it all you want, but the judge is fully justified in doling out those sentences. They may seem harsh to some, but they are as much of a deterrent as anything else. Rightly so as well, the punishments seem to have made a few people on here sit up and take notice.

And read the report again - a pensioner needed stitches, someone else almost with a serious eye injury. Maybe minor to some, but if it was one of my family I'd be wanting some time dished out to the perpetrators.

Also does sound like the police allowed it to happen. Which makes the idiots who took part in the violence even more stupid! Oh look, police. Oh look, cameras. I know, let's start chucking things.

There seems to be a few people saying 'ignore the criminal damage thing, they're only being punished for chucking coins'. But as far as I've read, the actual details haven't been released. So let's ignore the chucking coins bit for now as well, until the truth comes out.

Oh and if that is all you are clinging to, just remember that throwing an object is showing intent to injure. It isn't the same as speeding, or even drink driving...these are reckless. Intent to cause harm is worse, it is more like speeding AND aiming your car at a pedestrian. It is also just as cowardly.

In answer to the last bit of your post regards throwing objects etc,i just wish the police were so enthusiastic about getting convictions when away fans throw coins etc into the Northam.Ive had friends who have been hit by away fans (especially pompey fans),throwing things at us,but the police seem reluctant to do anything about it,even though they have cctv in the ground.
I have also witnessed a Luton fan punch someone outside St Marys right in front of a copper and despite my offer to be a witness,the policeman didnt want to know,instead he ignored the victims and my protest and let the Luton fan go.
I think the police were trying to justify their expenses.

[SFC Forever]

Remembering how I felt walking through some of the louts with my 11 yo daughter and 6 yo son, they deserve everything they got and more. My boy wouldn't go to a game for three games after he witnessed that.

[Thedelldays]

Remembering how I felt walking through some of the louts with my 11 yo daughter and 6 yo son, they deserve everything they got and more. My boy wouldn't go to a game for three games after he witnessed that.
there we go ladies and gents.....if any reason why these deserve their penalty

[aintforever]

there we go ladies and gents.....if any reason why these deserve their penalty

Yeah, scaring a couple of kids - that deserves a year behind bars.

[Arcadian]

Same here, one of my mates was assaulted outside the stadium and in full view of a policeman. But regardless of other things that have happened, it doesn't make what they have done any better or worse. They got caught and have gone down. Tough luck for them.

[Cowesboy]

Great to see these scumbags getting what they deserve.

[View From The Top]

there we go ladies and gents.....if any reason why these deserve their penalty

Scaring kids at the footy = 1 year.

Being a kiddy fiddler = 6 months.

My problem with it all is that the sentences were decided, ahead of time, by the CPS / OB. I'm just surprised they weren't dished out just before the WC started. And before anyone says it's ******s you may like to read my posts when this 1st all surfaced as by B-I-L, a DS on the case, said that jail terms were going to be dished out for all those convicted.

[Thedelldays]

Scaring kids at the footy = 1 year.

Being a kiddy fiddler = 6 months.

My problem with it all is that the sentences were decided, ahead of time, by the CPS / OB. I'm just surprised they weren't dished out just before the WC started. And before anyone says it's ******s you may like to read my posts when this 1st all surfaced as by B-I-L, a DS on the case, said that jail terms were going to be dished out for all those convicted.


they were not charged with scaring kids though....infact, as someone has posted..does any of us know the "full details"...infact, does anyone actually know these people we are offended for..?

[Denzil]

Remembering how I felt walking through some of the louts with my 11 yo daughter and 6 yo son, they deserve everything they got and more. My boy wouldn't go to a game for three games after he witnessed that.

It probably wasn't the greatest idea to take your children to that game.

[View From The Top]

It probably wasn't the greatest idea to take your children to that game.

Took my 7 yo and Corky Morris took his 7 & 9 yo. They all loved it.

[View From The Top]

they were not charged with scaring kids though....infact, as someone has posted..does any of us know the "full details"...infact, does anyone actually know these people we are offended for..?

It's not that they been done, they deserved to be, but jail time for what actually happened is OTT IMHO.

[StuRomseySaint]

I wonder what the 2 skates who threw the firecracker at Mounted Police will get? If we are going to have a proportionate sentance, then I guess they are looking at 10 years.

[Ponty]

Handling explosives, IMO.

[stu0x]

I think the police were trying to justify their expenses.


My problem with it all is that the sentences were decided, ahead of time, by the CPS / OB.
Just for all the obvious legal experts on here - you do realise that sentencing is decided by the COURTS, don't you? It has nothing to do with the Police/CPS.

I also find truly hilarious the suggestion on this thread that apparently the Police shouldn't have bothered investigating this matter, and by doing so they're demonstrating they are over-resourced. You know, given it was a major incident that made the press and involved large-scale offending, and all that. What else should they not bother investigating, out of interest? On that basis, the odd poxy rape or murder doesn't seem like a very good use of resources.


I wonder what the 2 skates who threw the firecracker at Mounted Police will get? If we are going to have a proportionate sentance, then I guess they are looking at 10 years.
Probably very little. The Courts often take the approach when it comes to assaults/offences against Police that they should almost expect it. Whereas every other judicial system in the world punishes offending against the Police extra-harshly (on the basis that it's an attack on a representative of the crown etc), in the UK they tend to be more lenient, not less. Bizarre.

Stu, just out of interest (as you seem to have a great deal personally invested in this matter), have you actually seen the video footage from the EGs? You seem to refer repeatedly to 'throwing coins' as the (only) thing that these people did - is that based on what they said, or what has actually been proven? I'm asking the question in all seriousness, I know very little about this matter and on the face of it the sentences do seem strong. Having said that, one thing I do know about disorder is you'll never ever get to the truth of the extent what happened unless it's captured on video, and even then often not 100%, so I would just be naturally sceptical of an acertation that 'all they did was throw a coin'.

And incidentally FYI, Violent Disorder is a far more 'serious' offence than Criminal Damage, and encapsulates disorder as a whole (obviously) - the fact that they weren't separately charged with criminal damage does not mean that any damage caused (or indeed any assaults committed) are not taken into consideration in the sentencing - quite the opposite.

[saintscottofthenortham]

I know the Sister of the 19 year old Matthew Hinton, who was sentanced to a year at a YOI. Unless he has changed dramatically, i.e gone from one extreme to the the other in the year or so I havnt seen him around, then this young lad has had a hell of a coming down on for what would have been a moment of madness for him.

All the sentances are harsh, and IMO, there should only have been sentances for those that have previous.

Pompey get away with stealing over £100 Million, while our fans get put away for throwing Hub Caps??? Pathetic.

[modern matron]

I know the Sister of the 19 year old Matthew Hinton, who was sentanced to a year at a YOI. Unless he has changed dramatically, i.e gone from one extreme to the the other in the year or so I havnt seen him around, then this young lad has had a hell of a coming down on for what would have been a moment of madness for him.

All the sentances are harsh, and IMO, there should only have been sentances for those that have previous.

Pompey get away with stealing over £100 Million, while our fans get put away for throwing Hub Caps??? Pathetic.

I don't class them as fans! No loss so stop over reacting....

[Nexstar]

If you enjoy sitting/hiding behind your PC trying to prove people wrong and that's what gives you a hard-on every night, can I suggest you get on a dating site and find a bird ( or bloke in your case )

LOL, you've posted 42 times in a thread that is not even 24 hours old, possibly the most hypocritical thing i've seen all day :lol:

[Hatch]

Custodial sentences are a complete load of bollokks for what they have done.

I just drove home from the pub, I had three pints, how long for that do reckon,, 15 years.. I could have killed a family.

[modern matron]

Custodial sentences are a complete load of bollokks for what they have done.

I just drove home from the pub, I had three pints, how long for that do reckon,, 15 years.. I could have killed a family.

Poor boys.... you talk a load of ********.........

[StuRomseySaint]

Stephen Jordan, 49, of Middle Road, Sholing, was seen pulling on the 6ft high fence by an officer. He later made the 'toe to toe' comment in interview.

Plumber Marcus Bevan, 23, of Warburton Road, Thornhill, threw missiles at the Pompey fans and later said in a police interview he wanted to fight them.

A report said his aggressive action inspired others to do the same.

Former Royal Navy engineer and Falklands veteran, Christopher Stevens, 46, of Stagbrake Close, Southampton, threw bottle tops, while James Smith, 34, of Brentwood Crescent, Southampton threw a stone.

Cameron Jordan, 22, son of Steven Jordan, threw a large piece of plastic and pulled at the fence. Matthew Hinton, 19, of Hillside Avenue, Southampton, threw a coin, as did Lewis Buckley, 24, of The Millburns, Romsey.

James Koral, 20, of Haddon Drive, Eastleigh, threw several missiles while Xavier Whyte, 22, of Wilton Road, Southampton, threw a plastic chair.

Kevin Medway, 28, of Old Farm Drive, Southampton, pulled the fence and threw a bottle top, while Michael Byles, 24, of Aldemoor Road, Southampton, grabbed at the fence.

Alan Taylor, 30, of Milton Road, Southampton, aggressively confronted a PCSO after going to the scene looking for a fight, 'so he could be beaten up and die'.

The men's barristers indicated their remorse and shame over what happened.

***********************

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/39Saints-fans-looked-for-Pompey.6357904.jp

Now please, that is the charges, tell me pulling on a f*cking fence deserves 12 months prison, it's a f*cking disgrace,

[Hatch]

, while Michael Byles, 24, of Aldemoor Road, Southampton, grabbed at the fence.



String him up.....

[View From The Top]

Just for all the obvious legal experts on here - you do realise that sentencing is decided by the COURTS, don't you? It has nothing to do with the Police/CPS.

Strange then how I was told, and as posted on here at the time, what the sentences would be isn't it.

You're nuts if you think the CPS don't have any input into sentencing once a conviction is made.

[StuRomseySaint]

String him up.....

12 months prison, according to some of the idiots on here, that's well deserved for grabbing a fence.

And before anyone says anything, I am pretty sure if there was anything else, then the reporter from the News would have mentioned it?

Also, what I want to know, who the fook had the bottle tops? :shock:

[harvey]

I feel sorry for those lads who kicked the **** out of that cyclist on central bridge (4 on 1 I think), on the basis of that sentencing, they're gonna get hung drawn and quartered.

Oh! maybe not, it seems that one of the alleged suspects has ADAH or whatever (yawn) and been on 'Trisha'........probably get a nice holiday to the world cup final or something.

[sotonjoe]

Stephen Jordan, 49, of Middle Road, Sholing, was seen pulling on the 6ft high fence by an officer. He later made the 'toe to toe' comment in interview.

Plumber Marcus Bevan, 23, of Warburton Road, Thornhill, threw missiles at the Pompey fans and later said in a police interview he wanted to fight them.

A report said his aggressive action inspired others to do the same.

Former Royal Navy engineer and Falklands veteran, Christopher Stevens, 46, of Stagbrake Close, Southampton, threw bottle tops, while James Smith, 34, of Brentwood Crescent, Southampton threw a stone.

Cameron Jordan, 22, son of Steven Jordan, threw a large piece of plastic and pulled at the fence. Matthew Hinton, 19, of Hillside Avenue, Southampton, threw a coin, as did Lewis Buckley, 24, of The Millburns, Romsey.

James Koral, 20, of Haddon Drive, Eastleigh, threw several missiles while Xavier Whyte, 22, of Wilton Road, Southampton, threw a plastic chair.

Kevin Medway, 28, of Old Farm Drive, Southampton, pulled the fence and threw a bottle top, while Michael Byles, 24, of Aldemoor Road, Southampton, grabbed at the fence.

Alan Taylor, 30, of Milton Road, Southampton, aggressively confronted a PCSO after going to the scene looking for a fight, 'so he could be beaten up and die'.

The men's barristers indicated their remorse and shame over what happened.

***********************

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/39Saints-fans-looked-for-Pompey.6357904.jp

Now please, that is the charges, tell me pulling on a f*cking fence deserves 12 months prison, it's a f*cking disgrace,

Good point. Why don't you write one of your letters and see if the judge will let them serve their sentence in installments?

[SET]

Point still stands, if they'd gone home like the rest of us they would not now be in prison

[Psycrow]

Strange then how I was told, and as posted on here at the time, what the sentences would be isn't it.

You're nuts if you think the CPS don't have any input into sentencing once a conviction is made.

I'm sure they make recommendations, and they have targets for the crimes they are investigating. But that doesn't mean that the courts will even pay heed to them

[StuRomseySaint]

Seriously can't get my head around that some of you are actually happy that people have been put in prison for doing nothing more than grabbing a fence ( it was nothing more than that, it's in black and white ) in the heat of the moment, or threw a bottle top or bit of plastic and they are not looking at least 5 or 6 months in prison, lost jobs, lost houses, kids having their Dads taken away for that time.

For what? Grabbing a f*cking fence. Now sorry, but regardless of the police filming, you could be excused for thinking that grabbing a fence is not going to get you put in prison, nor is throwing a 'bottle top' .

My thoughts go out to all the lads families, many of whom might lose their house or are wondering how they are going to be able to put food on the table for the kids and hope they all are released asap.

We really do have some retarded supporters, I don't know if you think it's funny them getting put in prison just to show off, or whether you genuinely feel it, either way... it's wrong. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and would be saying exactly the same if it was the other way round and it was P*mpey fans that got shafted by the justice system.

Put it into perspective, you can burgle a house, nick a car, drink drive, put someone in hospital after a fight in town, mug a granny etc and STILL expect less than a 12 month prison sentence which them lads got for 'grabbing a fence' .

Some people on here need to either stop showing off or get some perspective.

[Mr_Red]

1. Surely you don't believe everything written in the press?!
2. You simply would not get 12months for 'pulling on a fence'
3. The sentences will almost certainly be halved
4. Don't be a nob and you won't go to jail - this heat of the moment stuff is nonsense

[Wes Tender]

95% of the people on here haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

I feel that its only fair to include you in that 95%, as you somehow believe that the culprits would otherwise be model law abiding citizens.

[Psycrow]

Seriously can't get my head around that some of you are actually happy that people have been put in prison for doing nothing more than grabbing a fence ( it was nothing more than that, it's in black and white ) in the heat of the moment, or threw a bottle top or bit of plastic and they are not looking at least 5 or 6 months in prison, lost jobs, lost houses, kids having their Dads taken away for that time.

For what? Grabbing a f*cking fence. Now sorry, but regardless of the police filming, you could be excused for thinking that grabbing a fence is not going to get you put in prison, nor is throwing a 'bottle top' .

My thoughts go out to all the lads families, many of whom might lose their house or are wondering how they are going to be able to put food on the table for the kids and hope they all are released asap.

We really do have some retarded supporters, I don't know if you think it's funny them getting put in prison just to show off, or whether you genuinely feel it, either way... it's wrong. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and would be saying exactly the same if it was the other way round and it was P*mpey fans that got shafted by the justice system.

Put it into perspective, you can burgle a house, nick a car, drink drive, put someone in hospital after a fight in town, mug a granny etc and STILL expect less than a 12 month prison sentence which them lads got for 'grabbing a fence' .

Some people on here need to either stop showing off or get some perspective.

Stu, burgling a house, drink driving, nicking a car, fighting in town and putting someing in hospital and mugging a granny are all different to what these lads were put away for 1 simple reason. They don't involve huge crowds. As has been said many times in this thread and others, football violence is always going to be punished much more severly by the law. The reason that is the case is because of the potential for huge riots that can come from small actions. It can't even be compared to other violent crimes in that respect. Its the POTENTIAL they're trying to prevent by making an example of these guys trying to deter future incidents.

However the majority of those jailed weren't simply jailed for "grabbing a fence" or "throwing a bottle top". Only 2 of them were. Others threw missiles, coins, stones, a chair. You're playing down what they're actual actions were way too much. Through this thread you've gone from say they "Just threw a stone" to "They just threw pieces of wood" and now "They just grabbed a fence and throw a bottle top" They were throwing objects with the intention of harming others.

If the reporter in the article you posted has his facts right and some of them only grabbed at a fence, then yes maybe the sentences are too severe. I have a feeling more details may emerge though. As we've all seen in the last couple of months, reporters aren't always the most accurate people in the world.

You can't refer to failures in punishing offenders of other crimes adequately as a means of justifying your claim that their sentences are too harsh either. 2 wrongs don't make a right. If a mugger/rapist/murderer doesn't get a sentence that you consider fair, you can't let all other people convicted of crimes off lightly simply because of it. The examples that have been given on this thread are spurious and self serving also. For every "kiddie fiddler" (not your post above I know) that has gotten 6 months in jail, there are 100 who were jailed for years.

[StuRomseySaint]

1. Surely you don't believe everything written in the press?!
2. You simply would not get 12months for 'pulling on a fence'
3. The sentences will almost certainly be halved
4. Don't be a nob and you won't go to jail - this heat of the moment stuff is nonsense

It was written by a local news reporter sitting in on the court proceedings, don't you think that if there was something a bit more juicy to put in the story then she would have done.

12 months not for pulling on a fence, but for 'grabbing it'. 12 months for throwing A bottle top. 12 months for throwing 1 coin.

Pathetic, almost as pathetic as our retarded support praising the justice system.

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu, burgling a house, drink driving, nicking a car, fighting in town and putting someing in hospital and mugging a granny are all different to what these lads were put away for 1 simple reason. They don't involve huge crowds. As has been said many times in this thread and others, football violence is always going to be punished much more severly by the law. The reason that is the case is because of the potential for huge riots that can come from small actions. It can't even be compared to other violent crimes in that respect. Its the POTENTIAL they're trying to prevent by making an example of these guys trying to deter future incidents.

However the majority of those jailed weren't simply jailed for "grabbing a fence" or "throwing a bottle top". Only 2 of them were. Others threw missiles, coins, stones, a chair. You're playing down what they're actual actions were way too much. Through this thread you've gone from say they "Just threw a stone" to "They just threw pieces of wood" and now "They just grabbed a fence and throw a bottle top" They were throwing objects with the intention of harming others.

If the reporter in the article you posted has his facts right and some of them only grabbed at a fence, then yes maybe the sentences are too severe. I have a feeling more details may emerge though. As we've all seen in the last couple of months, reporters aren't always the most accurate people in the world.

You can't refer to failures in punishing offenders of other crimes adequately as a means of justifying your claim that their sentences are too harsh either. 2 wrongs don't make a right. If a mugger/rapist/murderer doesn't get a sentence that you consider fair, you can't let all other people convicted of crimes off lightly simply because of it. The examples that have been given on this thread are spurious and self serving also. For every "kiddie fiddler" (not your post above I know) that has gotten 6 months in jail, there are 100 who were jailed for years.

Seriously, one threw a plastic chair. ( watch the footage, it was one of them super light garden chairs which would do no more harm than maybe a scratch)

7 minutes 28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKU5JeQTWg4

What did that person get? 14 months in prison. Are you honestly, honestly telling me that the offence you can clearly see on the footage, which doesn't go anywhere near the P*mpey fans, nor does it hit the police. And YES , that was all his offence was, this is confirmed in the press release which I posted earlier, so don't come back with the " err, I bet that's not all he did "... it WAS all he did, otherwise details would have been released.

Seriously, if you think that is warranted of a 14 month sentence then you need to get off your high horse.

On a last point, I have no doubt people in real life think the sentences are harsh and that it's just alot of status posturing on here tonight. I honestly don't believe anyone can justify someone getting put behind bars for what you see on the video... that's just f*cking ludicrous.

[Rowan Gorilla 5]

You keep mentioning the £30,000 of damage.

How many of them where charged with criminal damage?

How many of them were having a 'running fight' , if so, who with and how many punches where thrown?

What were the police BEING PAID FOR BY SFC?

Was it to prevent trouble or to just nick anyone causing trouble? Or both?

Check out the definition of 'violent disorder' and look at the various different levels of assault and the types of criminal damage that there are and you will see why. What criminal act(s) people are charged with is down to the Crown Prosecution Service and not the police.

[StuRomseySaint]

Check out the definition of 'violent disorder' and look at the various different levels of assault and the types of criminal damage that there are and you will see why. What criminal act(s) people are charged with is down to the Crown Prosecution Service and not the police.

Regardless... I have just posted a video up of one of the offences which earnt the chap a 14 month sentence. Look at the video.

Do you think 14 months in prison for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road is justice served? Or maybe a tad on the harsh side?

[NorthamSteve]

Nobody was in a fight and nobody was seriously injured. So it's a bit of a hypothetical situation.
.

Which is why I started my question with 'Hypothetically speaking'.

[Rowan Gorilla 5]

Regardless... I have just posted a video up of one of the offences which earnt the chap a 14 month sentence. Look at the video.

Do you think 14 months in prison for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road is justice served? Or maybe a tad on the harsh side?

See what a 'designated sporting event' is and that will shed some light on the matter.

Because one sentence for one type of crime might seem unduly lenient it does not necessarily follow that another sentence for another type of crime is therefore unduly harsh.

Look at the sentences that were dished out to some of those involved in the Bradford, Burnley and Oldham riots.

[Saint Fan CaM]

The sentence is an irrelevance. All those who put themselves into a situation whereby they could have been accused of violent disorder or conduct have only themselves to blame. I saw some of the disturbance and there were both men, women and children involved in some way, however not all got charged - only a small minority who were seen to be causing the worst damage or acting in the most violent manner. Is there any evidence that an innocent bystander got sentenced, because if so I might start to get concerned?

[Fan The Flames]

The disproportionate sentences are wrong and the guys should appeal. My mate got stamped on on a Saturday night out and was in a specialist head ward for a week, the Police arrested the bloke on the night but had no appetite to pursue the case. I know what out of the two is worse. If people can not see that the Police have an agenda around football games then they are blind, its been going on for years. I don't remember anyone getting these sentences after the Countryside Alliance riot and don't get me started if these were rugby lads, it would be put down to high jinks. Is the same level of Policing undertaken in our Town Centres on a Saturday night, no and it won't until they get landlords to foot the bill. Hampshire Police have previous with the gay chanting fiasco.

On a wider point I bet all the guys are thinking what tits they are for giving a year of their lives for shouting at someone who happens to support another football club. The Pompey thing has now got out of hand and maybe we should all shoulder some of the blame. As a set of fans, us and them, we have let the rivalry get so bitter and through our unchecked words and actions we have now created a atmosphere that makes people compelled to act in a way that they wouldn't do to anybody else. People act in a certain way when they feel they have a licence to act that way and the pungency of the anti-pompey environment we have created has encouraged these blokes to feel that their actions were warranted and would be admired. So maybe it's time to step it down a bit for the sake of others in the future.

[liebherr driver]

I frankly cant believe the utter sh!te posted by the plebs on here who get on their soap boxes spouting indignant condemnation for the victims of this police and media witch hunt. Freeborns must be rubbing their hands at the insurance payout. Of course they will exaggerate damage claims, they repair the cars themselves ! I was there, in the aftermath and I struggled to see anywhere near £30,000 of damage, although hub caps and windscreen wipers are obviously expensive to replace. I bet they wish we played Pompey every week at home.

If you want a conspiracy theory then ask why there were no riot police deployed at a category C game, why both sets of fans were allowed to exit the ground at the same time. I myself have been attacked by Pompey fans on more than one occasion both home and away when minding my own business, been kept inside Nottarf Krap for well over an hour in the rain with no roof, all at the insistence of Hampshire Police.

None of the lads sentenced had previous form for football related violence, prisons are overcrowded meaning non football offences are often meted with alternative punishments, and yet the judge in his infinite wisdom saw fit to make an example of them.

Rough justice indeed.

[Mr_Red]

It was written by a local news reporter sitting in on the court proceedings, don't you think that if there was something a bit more juicy to put in the story then she would have done.

12 months not for pulling on a fence, but for 'grabbing it'. 12 months for throwing A bottle top. 12 months for throwing 1 coin.

Pathetic, almost as pathetic as our retarded support praising the justice system.


I'm not praising the justice system, I'm saying I don't believe all that happened has been divulged. I'm also saying you don't get put away for nothing.
Its fair to suggest the terms may be harsh (tho the sentences will not be seen out in full), but if it puts people off in the future then thats the definition of a deterrent.
Thank you for implying my views are retarded.

[Wade Garrett]

I wish the police were as interested when it comes to the w@nkers who run up my road booting wing mirrors and cars on a regular basis.

[StuRomseySaint]

I'm not praising the justice system, I'm saying I don't believe all that happened has been divulged. I'm also saying you don't get put away for nothing.
Its fair to suggest the terms may be harsh (tho the sentences will not be seen out in full), but if it puts people off in the future then thats the definition of a deterrent.
Thank you for implying my views are retarded.

Courts in this country are open houses. It was reported by a journo from the P*rtsmouth news exactly what they did... as I said, if there was more to the story, they would have reported it to make it sound a bit interesting. There wasn't though... that was it. I posted a video of the 'incident' that saw one person get 14 months.

Your views are indeed retarded if you think that 14 months is the right sentence for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road.

[dune]

Stu, do you believe these sentences will act as a detterent?

[skintsaint]

should do - after seeing what this can lead to I certainly wouldnt go around being a nobber after a football game.

14 months is harsh though. Cant they appeal?

[trousers]

Stu - if I was to come around your house and throw stones at your car causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage, what punishment would you be happy for me to receive?

Or, in other words, what level of punishment would you put in place that would deter me from doing it in the first place?

Genuine question.

[trousers]

Point still stands, if they'd gone home like the rest of us they would not now be in prison

Aye. It's quite simple isn't it?

[Daren W]

Seriously, one threw a plastic chair. ( watch the footage, it was one of them super light garden chairs which would do no more harm than maybe a scratch)

7 minutes 28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKU5JeQTWg4

What did that person get? 14 months in prison. Are you honestly, honestly telling me that the offence you can clearly see on the footage, which doesn't go anywhere near the P*mpey fans, nor does it hit the police. And YES , that was all his offence was, this is confirmed in the press release which I posted earlier, so don't come back with the " err, I bet that's not all he did "... it WAS all he did, otherwise details would have been released.

Seriously, if you think that is warranted of a 14 month sentence then you need to get off your high horse.

On a last point, I have no doubt people in real life think the sentences are harsh and that it's just alot of status posturing on here tonight. I honestly don't believe anyone can justify someone getting put behind bars for what you see on the video... that's just f*cking ludicrous.

I'd add to that, what sort of justice system do we have when you can have the most vile child porn on your pc and possibly get a lighter sentence.

The point here is that the police are culpable after letting the fans out together. We can argue the rights and wrong football violence until we're blue in the face but the one fact that a lot of the posters on here seem to be actively avoiding.

The sentences are disproportionate.... end of.

[trousers]

I'd add to that, what sort of justice system do we have when you can have the most vile child porn on your pc and possibly get a lighter sentence.

The point here is that the police are culpable after letting the fans out together. We can argue the rights and wrong football violence until we're blue in the face but the one fact that a lot of the posters on here seem to be actively avoiding.

The sentences are disproportionate.... end of.

Of course, there are two ways of dealing with "disproportionate" sentences....

(a) increase the sentences for "vile" crimes

Or

(b) decrease the sentences for "football violence"

[stmusicdude]

Regardless... I have just posted a video up of one of the offences which earnt the chap a 14 month sentence. Look at the video.

Do you think 14 months in prison for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road is justice served? Or maybe a tad on the harsh side?
It's all very well simplifying it .. but they were NOT sent to prison for 14 months for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road .. It's more to do with what they did collectively & the environment surrounding them.
They are not 12,13 or 14 year old lads going through adolescence. They ALL knew what they were doing & the implications to them & their families if caught .. yet still they did it .. & now we are supposed to feel sorry for them .. Oh do grow up!!


In this thread you have gone from calling people who disagree retards to pathetic & changing just what it is these people did. I know which I think is pathetic ...

As it happens I actually think the sentences do SEEM tough .. but at the same time .. about bloody time lets see some more like this for this sort of behavior & get the louts away from the games, if they cant act like decent human beings prior to & after the games I don't want them anywhere near the stadium.

[Ponty]

I'd add to that, what sort of justice system do we have when you can have the most vile child porn on your pc and possibly get a lighter sentence.



That just suggests that the minimum sentences for other crimes aren't high enough.

[trousers]

That just suggests that the minimum sentences for other crimes aren't high enough.

Exactly

[StuRomseySaint]

It's all very well simplifying it .. but they were NOT sent to prison for 14 months for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road .. It's more to do with what they did collectively & the environment surrounding them.
They are not 12,13 or 14 year old lads going through adolescence. They ALL knew what they were doing & the implications to them & their families if caught .. yet still they did it .. & now we are supposed to feel sorry for them .. Oh do grow up!!


In this thread you have gone from calling people who disagree retards to pathetic & changing just what it is these people did. I know which I think is pathetic ...

As it happens I actually think the sentences do SEEM tough .. but at the same time .. about bloody time lets see some more like this for this sort of behavior & get the louts away from the games, if they cant act like decent human beings prior to & after the games I don't want them anywhere near the stadium.

Of course they are tough, someone just got carted off to Parkhurst ( where the majority of them have gone ) for 14 months for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road.

I am sure pretty much every person on this forum has commited an offence in their life which would be deemed as more serious that throwing a plastic chair about 3 metres into an empty road.

[StuRomseySaint]

That just suggests that the minimum sentences for other crimes aren't high enough.

Super. Let's pay out more tax and make sure we can fill the prisons up with everyone who fights on a Friday night, anyone who goes more than 5mph over the limit, anyone that swears in public, drops litter...

You must be super rich.

I don't know if you read the news Ponty, but our prisons are overcrowded... prople who nick cars, put people in hospital after a fight on a Friday night, burglars, sexual offenders etc are all avoiding jail, whilst some lad who throws a plastic chair ( at nobody ) is inside for 14 months.

[dune]

Super. Let's pay out more tax and make sure we can fill the prisons up with everyone who fights on a Friday night, anyone who goes more than 5mph over the limit, anyone that swears in public, drops litter...

You must be super rich.

I don't know if you read the news Ponty, but our prisons are overcrowded... prople who nick cars, put people in hospital after a fight on a Friday night, burglars, sexual offenders etc are all avoiding jail, whilst some lad who throws a plastic chair ( at nobody ) is inside for 14 months.

He shouldn't have been throwing a plastic chair. How you can defend those morons is beyond me. They weren't kids - they were adults, and they did it right in front of a film crew.

[trousers]

Super. Let's pay out more tax and make sure we can fill the prisons up with everyone who fights on a Friday night, anyone who goes more than 5mph over the limit, anyone that swears in public, drops litter...

You must be super rich.

I don't know if you read the news Ponty, but our prisons are overcrowded... prople who nick cars, put people in hospital after a fight on a Friday night, burglars, sexual offenders etc are all avoiding jail, whilst some lad who throws a plastic chair ( at nobody ) is inside for 14 months.

Why would raising deterent levels across the board increae the prison population?

The greater the punishment the more thought people are likely to give before committing the crime in the first place?

Using an extreme to illustrate a point, if the punishment for driving over the speed limit was having my gonads removed by a meat cleaver I can assure you that I would studiously drive everywhere at 20 mph.

[Wade Garrett]

....

[Wade Garrett]

Stu - if I was to come around your house and throw stones at your car causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage, what punishment would you be happy for me to receive?

Or, in other words, what level of punishment would you put in place that would deter me from doing it in the first place?

Genuine question.

The point is, for me, is that the police aren't interested in pursuing this sort of crime. It is zero tolerance on this sort of crime, at an early age, that stops youngsters growing up to be criminals with no respect for the law.

I have first hand experience of this. It is a recurring problem where I live and the police couldn't be less interested. Too much work for them.

[sadoldgit]

£30,000 of criminal damage. Throwing missiles that could have caused serious injury. If this had been Pompey supporters those of you who say this is wrong would expect harsher sentencing. The only way to stamp out mindess violence is to dish out tough sentences. A riot in the streets isn't any less so because it is carried out by football supporters.

[trousers]

The point is, for me, is that the police aren't interested in pursuing this sort of crime. It is zero tolerance on this sort of crime, at an early age, that stops youngsters growing up to be criminals with no respect for the law.

I have first hand experience of this. It is a recurring problem where I live and the police couldn't be less interested. Too much work for them.

The police "aren't interested" because they know the scumbags will get a slap on the wrist and let back out into the community.

Again, if the deterent was high enough there would be less crime in the first place.

In my example, rhe deterent for someone throwing stones at Stu's car will not be high enough to prevent it happening, or at least significantly reduce the likelihood.

[Thedelldays]

stu..many cant get their head around why you seem to offended for everyone lately..

like you say to me on other threads...this has nothing to do with you..so shut up

[dune]

I wonder if Stu's attitude woould be different if students had damaged his car, or thrown a projectile and cut his granddads head....

[warsash saint]

I had kids throwing stones at my windows late Saturday night.....my 4 year old daughter was a sleep just a few feet from the window. If the police catch up with these w**kers, do you really think that they will get a year in jail ? Like f**k they will !!

I think the issue here is the sheer inconsistancy of the sentencing. The 'fans' caught were complete idiots - ban them from the ground, give them big fines even a suspended sentence...but 12 months in prison ??

[View From The Top]

We will know if the sentences have worked by the antics of "the yoof" next season, but I reckon they'll forget soon enough.

What I'm quite sure of is that if the offences had been at a match that didn't involve pompey they wouldn't have been sent down.

[View From The Top]

I think the issue here is the sheer inconsistancy of the sentencing. The 'fans' caught were complete idiots - ban them from the ground, give them big fines even a suspended sentence...but 12 months in prison ??

Agree 100%.

The lads who laid into the Yeovil fans got lesser sentences.

[sadoldgit]

There is a big difference at someone throwing a stone at a car and a street riot. Rioting is rioting and is no less so if it involves football. I have had my car vandalised and it is very annoying, but I don't put that in the same league as a major brawl kicking off in the streets.

[Sour Mash]

The sentence is an irrelevance. All those who put themselves into a situation whereby they could have been accused of violent disorder or conduct have only themselves to blame. I saw some of the disturbance and there were both men, women and children involved in some way, however not all got charged - only a small minority who were seen to be causing the worst damage or acting in the most violent manner. Is there any evidence that an innocent bystander got sentenced, because if so I might start to get concerned?

Not really, that's what the majority of this thread has been about.

[Sour Mash]

Stu, do you believe these sentences will act as a detterent?

Giving kids who nick some sweets a year in prison might act as a deterrent, doesn't mean it would be a fair sentence.

[Sour Mash]

there we go ladies and gents.....if any reason why these deserve their penalty

Utter B*****S, there was no reason why any Saints fan/or member of public would have had to walk through or be ANYWHERE near the incident.

[Turkish]

I feel that its only fair to include you in that 95%, as you somehow believe that the culprits would otherwise be model law abiding citizens.

Well do they have any 'previous'? if they dont then that suggests they are apart from one moment of madness. As far as i am aware only one or two do, so the vast majority would be considered law abising citizens, have jobs, families, etc which they risk losing because of 2 minutes of stupidity. But seriously, 14 months for throwing a plastic chair, 12 months for throwing a stone, stuck in prison in Parkhurst with murders, armed robbers etc, do you seriously think that is right?

[Cabrone]

I'd imagine that these sentences will make a lot of wannabe thugs think twice before wanting to cause trouble and I guess that is exactly why these idiots got the sentences that they did.

No sympathy for them, they weren't kids and they knew what they were doing.

If they didn't want to go to jail then maybe they should have behaved themselves in the first place, something that really isn't difficult for the vast majority of fans.

[Daren W]

There is a big difference at someone throwing a stone at a car and a street riot. Rioting is rioting and is no less so if it involves football. I have had my car vandalised and it is very annoying, but I don't put that in the same league as a major brawl kicking off in the streets.

Hold on a second, so is the issue "rioting"? If so, if missiles were hurled at a political march would the offenders be getting year long sentence? It has to be proportionate, a riot is a riot.
I doubt very much if political rioters would get a similar sentence...

[saintjay77]

Hold on a second, so is the issue "rioting"? If so, if missiles were hurled at a political march would the offenders be getting year long sentence? It has to be proportionate, a riot is a riot.
I doubt very much if political rioters would get a similar sentence...

There has been a tougher stance on Football related violence for a long time though. Mainly due to the regular violence that used to follow football years ago.

If this type of offence just carried a slap on the wrist then there is a high chance that things would progress next time there is a local derby and we could start moving back to how things used to be.

Yes the sentances were harsh when compared to some other offences away from football and if each offence was delt with as if it was 1 chap on his own then no doubt the police would not have been interested. But it wasnt and the sentances were harsh to deter future problems which im fairly sure it will.

Name and shaming the next pedo and then stringing him up by his balls from London Bridge might be harsh by the letter of the law but it also might make future sick fuk's think twice before they go down that route.

[SaintSi]

considering when i did some work for the probation service there were enough pedos to fill a community service bus, i think they have been sentenced rather harshly in comparison.

[Psycrow]

Of course they are tough, someone just got carted off to Parkhurst ( where the majority of them have gone ) for 14 months for throwing a plastic chair into an empty road.

I am sure pretty much every person on this forum has commited an offence in their life which would be deemed as more serious that throwing a plastic chair about 3 metres into an empty road.

The fact that he hit an empty road is irrelivant. He threw it in the direction of a group of people, possibly inciting a riot. I've said this twice already now, so I'll put it in caps this time because its being conveniently ignored. IT IS INCITEMENT. THE PUNISHMENT IS MORE THAN IT WOULD BE IN A NORMAL SITUATION BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL OF A RIOT BECAUSE OF THE LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVOLVED. If he threw that chair, on camera, onto a road at 3am after a niteclub, he'd get the fine you're talking about. But he didn't did he? He threw it in the direction of hundreds of angry opposing fans and cops. He didn't hit anybody... but not for the want of trying.

[Sour Mash]

The fact that he hit an empty road is irrelivant. He threw it in the direction of a group of people, possibly inciting a riot. I've said this twice already now, so I'll put it in caps this time because its being conveniently ignored. IT IS INCITEMENT. THE PUNISHMENT IS MORE THAN IT WOULD BE IN A NORMAL SITUATION BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL OF A RIOT BECAUSE OF THE LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVOLVED. If he threw that chair, on camera, onto a road at 3am after a niteclub, he'd get the fine you're talking about. But he didn't did he? He threw it in the direction of hundreds of angry opposing fans and cops. He didn't hit anybody... but not for the want of trying.

You think you're so clever? None of the charges towards any of these individuals related to incitement (as far as we currently know). They have been give 12months + prison sentences for as little as shaking a fence aggresively and it's a joke - or do I need to put that in capitals? Would be looking at possibly doubling (or close to) the sentences if any of these contested the charges and actually went not guilty. Madness and I find it disgusting the way some on here have literally got a hard-on from the fact that as a result of 1 minute of stupidity blokes with clear records, jobs, families, etc are looking at year long prison sentences (yes I know they won't have to serve all of it, but that's not really the point).

I hope most of the utterly smug c**ts on here never f**k up and do something rash and stupid and get an unduly harsh punishment for it.

[dune]

I wonder how many of those defending these yobs are hooligans/hooligan wannabee's themselves.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

The fact that he hit an empty road is irrelivant. He threw it in the direction of a group of people, possibly inciting a riot. I've said this twice already now, so I'll put it in caps this time because its being conveniently ignored. IT IS INCITEMENT. THE PUNISHMENT IS MORE THAN IT WOULD BE IN A NORMAL SITUATION BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL OF A RIOT BECAUSE OF THE LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVOLVED. If he threw that chair, on camera, onto a road at 3am after a niteclub, he'd get the fine you're talking about. But he didn't did he? He threw it in the direction of hundreds of angry opposing fans and cops. He didn't hit anybody... but not for the want of trying.

I had a look at the video twice now and the plastic chair did not seem to be thrown in the direction of any Portsmouth supporters, infact there were none anywhere near the incident. Also, as you seem to have put incitement in capitals, as far as I am aware, if it was incitement to riot, they would have been charged with this as well, if there was criminal damage caused, they would have been charged with this as well.

Police would not just charge someone with Violent Disorder ( which is to cause violence or make threats of violence whilst in a group of 3 or more ) if there was criminal damage caused by the individual or other then make no mistakes, they would have been charged with that offence as well, as they would for incitement to riot if they warranted it, or assault if they actually threw a punch.

It seems this chap done no more than toss a plastic chair into an empty road ( not at P*rstmouth fans ) and now he has to serve probably 6 months in prison for his actions. It does seem a little bit OTT. A community order and ban from football would have sufficed.

[Psycrow]

Hold on a second, so is the issue "rioting"? If so, if missiles were hurled at a political march would the offenders be getting year long sentence? It has to be proportionate, a riot is a riot.
I doubt very much if political rioters would get a similar sentence...

A violent political protest is still a different situation in the main. There would rarely be 2 opposing groups of people at a political protest, the only exception I can think of offhand would be the Orange Marches in NI.

[Psycrow]

considering when i did some work for the probation service there were enough pedos to fill a community service bus, i think they have been sentenced rather harshly in comparison.

Just because they were out on probation when you dealing with them doesn't mean they hadn't served lengthy sentences.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

A violent political protest is still a different situation in the main. There would rarely be 2 opposing groups of people at a political protest, the only exception I can think of offhand would be the Orange Marches in NI.

I would like to point out EDL and UAF marches, which clash on an almost weekly basis... with few arrests and convictions, but alot more violent disorder than was seen at the Portsmouth game. Infact only this weekend the UAF were attacking police officers!!! With no arrests, infact the police actually backed off so not to cause any more trouble. If only the Hampshire Constabulary had deployed the same preventative tactics instead of making decisions which increased the likelyhood of disorder tenfold.

http://www.thisishampshire.net/uk_national_news/8229635.Police_attacked_at_anti_racist_demo/?ref=mr

[Psycrow]

You think you're so clever? None of the charges towards any of these individuals related to incitement (as far as we currently know). They have been give 12months + prison sentences for as little as shaking a fence aggresively and it's a joke - or do I need to put that in capitals? Would be looking at possibly doubling (or close to) the sentences if any of these contested the charges and actually went not guilty. Madness and I find it disgusting the way some on here have literally got a hard-on from the fact that as a result of 1 minute of stupidity blokes with clear records, jobs, families, etc are looking at year long prison sentences (yes I know they won't have to serve all of it, but that's not really the point).

I hope most of the utterly smug c**ts on here never f**k up and do something rash and stupid and get an unduly harsh punishment for it.

I never said they did. But the crime of Violent disorder doesn't carry a set punishment. The punishment ranges and the judge has discretion to choose the punishment for each specific case. My point is that the fact that there was a risk of riot because of their actions was surely taken into account and a heavier than normal charge increased.

I'll ignore the patronising "You think you're clever" statement.

[holepuncture]

considering when i did some work for the probation service there were enough pedos to fill a community service bus, i think they have been sentenced rather harshly in comparison.

Abso-bloody-lutely, the contradictions that go on in our justice system are disgraceful, and we have arguably the best legal system about.

What is worth pointing out is, despite our overcrowded prisons, it costs more to enforce community service on a petty criminal/thug than it does to imprison them, through the cost of management/supervision, transport, insurance, damage costs etc.

Tell a crack addicted shoplifter to re-soil a roundabout and see how motivated they are!

Tell a well'ard football hooligan to do.. well... anything.... sod it, lock em up!



The fact that he hit an empty road is irrelivant. He threw it in the direction of a group of people, possibly inciting a riot. I've said this twice already now, so I'll put it in caps this time because its being conveniently ignored. IT IS INCITEMENT. THE PUNISHMENT IS MORE THAN IT WOULD BE IN A NORMAL SITUATION BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL OF A RIOT BECAUSE OF THE LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVOLVED. If he threw that chair, on camera, onto a road at 3am after a niteclub, he'd get the fine you're talking about. But he didn't did he? He threw it in the direction of hundreds of angry opposing fans and cops. He didn't hit anybody... but not for the want of trying.

The aggressor normally gets harsh treatment, in consideration of the chair throwing mug.

It does seem like this lot have been stitched up a bit by the law, making powerful political statements.

It was an exceptional day, saints and saints fans dominating the game for 60 mins, then it just turned on our heads. the skates awoke from their silence and started abusing the northam/itchen.

I felt my blood boil that day, I wanted to blow my top, ive never been so angry/hurt/frustrated at a game before in my life... However... as an adult... I was able to control my emotions, had a pint after the game, and went on my way.

I feel for this lot of saints fans, it was an exceptional day and a lot to stomach after the last 5 years at SFC.

Unfortunately if you start indulging in swinging chairs above your head, on police camera, you really are just bending over and applying lube for MR OB

All a bit of a shame really, but hey, if as SRS and the Turk keep pointing out, if they are respectable gentlemen Monday to Friday, they should only have to serve 50% of the sentence on good behavior, they'll be out for Xmas!

[Psycrow]

I had a look at the video twice now and the plastic chair did not seem to be thrown in the direction of any Portsmouth supporters, infact there were none anywhere near the incident. Also, as you seem to have put incitement in capitals, as far as I am aware, if it was incitement to riot, they would have been charged with this as well, if there was criminal damage caused, they would have been charged with this as well.

Police would not just charge someone with Violent Disorder ( which is to cause violence or make threats of violence whilst in a group of 3 or more ) if there was criminal damage caused by the individual or other then make no mistakes, they would have been charged with that offence as well, as they would for incitement to riot if they warranted it, or assault if they actually threw a punch.

It seems this chap done no more than toss a plastic chair into an empty road ( not at P*rstmouth fans ) and now he has to serve probably 6 months in prison for his actions. It does seem a little bit OTT. A community order and ban from football would have sufficed.

I presumed they were out of shot, apologies if I was wrong. It was thrown into an area with quite a number of police though.

I replied about the incitement bit already. I didn't mean it as a legal term or something they had been charged with.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

I presumed they were out of shot, apologies if I was wrong. It was thrown into an area with quite a number of police though.

I replied about the incitement bit already. I didn't mean it as a legal term or something they had been charged with.

It was indeed thrown into an area with lots of police.

Was there intent to harm or cause injury though? I doubt it, it certainly doesn't seem to have been thrown with force at any specific person, it simply seems to have been tossed over the fence. So on that note, I find 14 months inprisonment for that, harsh to say the least.

That's my view, I will leave you to bicker now. :D

[Psycrow]

It was indeed thrown into an area with lots of police.

Was there intent to harm or cause injury though? I doubt it, it certainly doesn't seem to have been thrown with force at any specific person, it simply seems to have been tossed over the fence. So on that note, I find 14 months inprisonment for that, harsh to say the least.

That's my view, I will leave you to bicker now. :D

Then why throw it? Seriously, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I normally ignore these things on here. But why throw a chair into a group of people if your intention isn't to harm?

I also said before that I don't think some of the sentences are justified, I'm trying to play devil's advocate. I just really believe that the fact that there were hundreds of people involved has led to much bigger sentences than would normally apply for these offences.

[saintjay77]

It was indeed thrown into an area with lots of police.

Was there intent to harm or cause injury though? I doubt it, it certainly doesn't seem to have been thrown with force at any specific person, it simply seems to have been tossed over the fence. So on that note, I find 14 months inprisonment for that, harsh to say the least.

That's my view, I will leave you to bicker now. :D

Didnt the one that got 14 months have a previous history or something? I guess that would have been taken into consideration when dishing out the punishment.

I agree the punishments seem harsh when compared to a similar incident away from football but harsh sentances seem to be the only thing so called football fans listen too. If a banning order and a slap on the wrist were to have been given I would bet the same mugs would be in the same situation at the next chance they got. Along with a few hundred more thinking they can have a bit of a ruck and if they get caught they will just get a slap on the wrist too.

With these sentances even the few who get carried away with the situation will think twice before they go as far next time and the hoolies the OB were probably hoping to catch will think even harder.

So while its a shame that these mugs have been harshly punished for there actions I cant complain as it will go a long way to keeping going to the footy with my kids a much more enjoyable experience.

[saint boggy]

Didnt the one that got 14 months have a previous history or something? I guess that would have been taken into consideration when dishing out the punishment.

I agree the punishments seem harsh when compared to a similar incident away from football but harsh sentances seem to be the only thing so called football fans listen too. If a banning order and a slap on the wrist were to have been given I would bet the same mugs would be in the same situation at the next chance they got. Along with a few hundred more thinking they can have a bit of a ruck and if they get caught they will just get a slap on the wrist too.

With these sentances even the few who get carried away with the situation will think twice before they go as far next time and the hoolies the OB were probably hoping to catch will think even harder.

So while its a shame that these mugs have been harshly punished for there actions I cant complain as it will go a long way to keeping going to the footy with my kids a much more enjoyable experience.


and there-in lies the reasoning behind the sentences......

[Secret Site Agent]

Are you saying that them losing their jobs, having their lives turned upside down, children having their parents taken away is an acceptable punishment for throwing a fookin coin?

You seriously are retarded.

Well I got to ask, Why aren't you in prison with them STU? Or MLG? Or ME? Simple, because we didn't get involved in that. I was there on the day, with my daughter and even if I wasn't with her I wouldn't have been involved. I think you will find not only are the sentaces harsh because of 'football violence' but also for the damage and costs as well. I do have some sympathy with them, but at the end of the day, and this is harsh too, they did it and they have to pay the price.

And as we know, in the real world money is more importatnt than life, unless it is hundreds of millions then it is acceptable.

[Surman4no7shirt]

You ignored the £30,000 of criminal damage. Also this may have been their last chance and were told if they did anything again they'd get a custodial sentence.

They ripped the hub caps and wing mirrors off of the garages cars... causing £30,000 worth of damage and probably much more cost in terms of the work the people at the garage must have had to do afterwards. Sorry its the people, who are almost certainly other Saints Fans, who had to pick up the pieces afterwards that I feel sorry for. Mindless idiots like this deserve to be in jail and prevented from breeding, they are polluting the gene pool.

[Joensuu]

I don't undertand this 'empty street' thing. The chair only just misses the police officers. It was obviously aimed at them, with intent.

If you swing for a stranger, you might get away with it. If you swing for a stranger in view of a police officer, you're likely to get a fine or short sentence. But, if you swing for a police officer, you will have the full force of the law thrown at you, and if you have previous, will almost certainly get six months. The chair was obviously intended to injure a police officer.

I don’t feel the slightest sympathy for those involved. They had plenty of warning, they have seen how police tackle football disorders in the past. They could see the CCTV cameras. But still they decided to try and incite a potentially dangerous situation for the police to handle. They are definitely causing a public order offence, whether that is (merely) 'affray', or more accurately 'violent disorder' (possibly even verging on 'riot'). There is no way these people didn't know what the penalty would be. Hopefully this will warn others away from acting as stupidly in the future. Unfortunately, somehow I doubt it will.

What is worse, is the sickening way in which some on here have continuously suggested that the actions of those found guilty was in some way trivial, or that the police entrapped them. They offended. They offended in full knowledge of the penalties. They offended in full view of the cameras. They deserve everything they get.

I thought this board had a policy of punishing posters who support violence behaviour.

[Sour Mash]

So while its a shame that these mugs have been harshly punished for there actions I cant complain as it will go a long way to keeping going to the footy with my kids a much more enjoyable experience.

WTF? Can people on here honestly tell me how often their football going experiences are ruined by hooliganism these days? I know loads of families that have been going week in, week out to football and have never had it effect them, even in the 80s, so what does this have to do with anything?

I can't think of one possible reason why the incident at the Freebourne garages would have had any impact on the day out of any Saints fans at that game.

Yet another very strange point made on this thread.

[Surman4no7shirt]

I can't think of one possible reason why the incident at the Freebourne garages would have had any impact on the day out of any Saints fans at that game.

Pretty sure it ruined the day of the Saints Fans who work at Freebourne Garages! What about if you had to get past this group with children on your way home and they were half scared to death? What if you don't like violence and seeing it ruined your day? What about if you were a Saints supporting Policeman getting a chair thrown at you by a bunch of idiots?

It's pretty easy for someone of average intelligence to think of some reasons why this may have ruined the experience of Saints fans at the game.

[Turkish]

One simple question. Are any of us going to feel safer at St Marys next season knowing that these 12 guys, who weren't know to Hampshire police as trouble makers, are behind bars?

[Sour Mash]

Pretty sure it ruined the day of the Saints Fans who work at Freebourne Garages! What about if you had to get past this group with children on your way home and they were half scared to death? What if you don't like violence and seeing it ruined your day? What about if you were a Saints supporting Policeman getting a chair thrown at you by a bunch of idiots?

It's pretty easy for someone of average intelligence to think of some reasons why this may have ruined the experience of Saints fans at the game.

Yet another individual posting about something they know nothing about! Why? You clearly don't know what you are posting about, so why write on a public forum?

No-one had to walk past this incident! It was at the far side of a car park, up against a fence, with Pompey fans the other side. There can't have been more than one or maybe two individuals working at the garage that day, I can appreciate it wouldn't have been a hugely pleasant experience for them, but they were not threatened or attacked in anyway. There were plenty of women and kids and general Saints fans hanging around watching it happen, all looking/feeling fairly unthreatened.

[saintjay77]

WTF? Can people on here honestly tell me how often their football going experiences are ruined by hooliganism these days? I know loads of families that have been going week in, week out to football and have never had it effect them, even in the 80s, so what does this have to do with anything?

I can't think of one possible reason why the incident at the Freebourne garages would have had any impact on the day out of any Saints fans at that game.

Yet another very strange point made on this thread.

Personally I wouldnt have taken my kids to a saints v poopy match just to make sure they dont get injured by mindless idiots lobbing coins and chairs around. I would have more expected it to be from the blue mindless idiots but none the less I thought it would be sensible to pass that game by and watch it on the tv.

Maybe the next time Saints play poopy the mindless idiots will be a bit more thoughtfull in there actions and I might think there is less chance my kids could get hurt. Derby games are what its all about and to get one over your rivals and be there to be a part of it is amazing. So I would love my kids to experience it. Not going to happen as long as there are mindless idiots there intent on turning a footy match into a riot though. As long as the OB are being harsh on Football related crime the more chance my kids have of going to one of these games.

Or would you rather the PB did nothing and wait for full scale riots to occur before they stepped in with a few slapped wrists?

[RedAndWhite91]

I got punched at the pub last week. Nothing came of it. If this was at the football, the other bloke no doubt would now be in prison.

I actually LOL'd at the Daily Echo report too, their description of the events were exaggerated I felt. "Terrifying scenes" yeah right, I saw women, children, shirters and old people laughing and following the 'action', stood at the garage, goading Pompey fans, chasing it all down around Northam up to Brittania Road.

[saintjay77]

One simple question. Are any of us going to feel safer at St Marys next season knowing that these 12 guys, who weren't know to Hampshire police as trouble makers, are behind bars?

If thats how not known trouble makers get treated then the likly hood of known trouble makers turning up to cause trouble is much lower so yes I would probably feel a little safer and more likly to bring my kids.

[Wiltshire Saint]

It won't necessarily make me feel safer as I can look after myself and drink down the Plume, but it might make some of the older fans or families that attend games feel safer, and that is agood thing.

All I can say is "Good riddance to bad rubbish". I'm just saddened that the sentence wasn't longer. These sort of criminals will only get out after a few months and egged on by their brain-dead mates (the likes of whom can be seen on here) repeat the offences they commited to get in trouble in the first place. They don't accept what they did was wrong so will simply do it again.....maybe next time they will kill someone. Maybe that's what people are waiting for? I bet there would stuill be some on here who would defend these potential murderers.

Throw away the bloody key is my advice to the authorities (or at least see to it that there are "accidents" that these thugs are involved in whilst inside)

[Wilko]

How many people were injured?

[Wiltshire Saint]

I got punched at the pub last week. Nothing came of it. If this was at the football, the other bloke no doubt would now be in prison.

I bet you were with your gobby little brother. The pair of you deserve a good kicking.

[RedAndWhite91]

I bet you were with your gobby little brother. The pair of you deserve a good kicking.

You're trying this particular wind up for the third time now and it's still as boring as ever. Yaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

[View From The Top]

Personally I wouldnt have taken my kids to a saints v poopy match just to make sure they dont get injured by mindless idiots lobbing coins and chairs around. I would have more expected it to be from the blue mindless idiots but none the less I thought it would be sensible to pass that game by and watch it on the tv.

Maybe the next time Saints play poopy the mindless idiots will be a bit more thoughtfull in there actions and I might think there is less chance my kids could get hurt. Derby games are what its all about and to get one over your rivals and be there to be a part of it is amazing. So I would love my kids to experience it. Not going to happen as long as there are mindless idiots there intent on turning a footy match into a riot though. As long as the OB are being harsh on Football related crime the more chance my kids have of going to one of these games.

Or would you rather the PB did nothing and wait for full scale riots to occur before they stepped in with a few slapped wrists?

I took my 7yo and sat in our usual seats in the family centre with plenty of other kids. They loved it and are not emotionally scared from the experience nor did I or they ever feel threatened. The same can be said for all the "high risk" games such as Millwall and Leeds.

Some people need to grow a pair.

[Sour Mash]

Personally I wouldnt have taken my kids to a saints v poopy match just to make sure they dont get injured by mindless idiots lobbing coins and chairs around. I would have more expected it to be from the blue mindless idiots but none the less I thought it would be sensible to pass that game by and watch it on the tv.

Maybe the next time Saints play poopy the mindless idiots will be a bit more thoughtfull in there actions and I might think there is less chance my kids could get hurt. Derby games are what its all about and to get one over your rivals and be there to be a part of it is amazing. So I would love my kids to experience it. Not going to happen as long as there are mindless idiots there intent on turning a footy match into a riot though. As long as the OB are being harsh on Football related crime the more chance my kids have of going to one of these games.

Or would you rather the PB did nothing and wait for full scale riots to occur before they stepped in with a few slapped wrists?

Utter b*******s as always from you. There were probably thousands of kids there that day, their parents showed some savvy and they all had an enjoyable and safe day. I wouldn't walk my kids around by the away end after a heated derby match, same way as I wouldn't walk them along a high street full or bars at chucking out time or take them to a lively music concert. As stated above, there is absolutely no reason why this incident would have had any impact on any kids there that day supporting Saints.

And as for your final pont, the police sat back and let the incident happen (could be argued that they wanted it to happen, hence taking the unusal step of letting the fans out at the same time), they clearly weren't overly bothered about disorder breaking out.

[saintjay77]

I took my 7yo and sat in our usual seats in the family centre with plenty of other kids. They loved it and are not emotionally scared from the experience nor did I or they ever feel threatened. The same can be said for all the "high risk" games such as Millwall and Leeds.

Some people need to grow a pair.

TBH I wouldnt expect any problems sitting in the family stand. But outside the ground with a bunch of moronic poopy fans near by I would have half expected things to be thrown and saints fans to react. I just dont fancy putting 3 kids under 11 into that kind of situation. Taking my kids into a potenial riot situation to show I have grown a pair doesnt seem like the way forward to me.

With all that said, the OB should have done better but it still doesnt excuse the mindless idiots getting involved.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Southampton v Yeovil

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Stamping on persons head.
Sentence - Suspended sentence and 3 year football ban.

Southampton v Portsmouth

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Grabbing a Fence
Sentence - 12 months inprisonment, 6 year ban from football.

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Tossing a plastic chair in the air, hitting nobody.
Sentence - 14 months inprisonment. 6 year ban from football.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't deserve to be punished... but there is a severe lack of consistancy, which I think is what peoples gripe is.

What do you class as more severe? Grabbing a fence or stamping on someones head?

I think I know which one I would rather see punished.

[saintjay77]

Utter b*******s as always from you. There were probably thousands of kids there that day, their parents showed some savvy and they all had an enjoyable and safe day. I wouldn't walk my kids around by the away end after a heated derby match, same way as I wouldn't walk them along a high street full or bars at chucking out time or take them to a lively music concert. As stated above, there is absolutely no reason why this incident would have had any impact on any kids there that day supporting Saints.

And as for your final pont, the police sat back and let the incident happen (could be argued that they wanted it to happen, hence taking the unusal step of letting the fans out at the same time), they clearly weren't overly bothered about disorder breaking out.

Nice to know my opinion is utter BS. Im sure there is a label for your opinion too but I cant be bothered to get into that.

Had I taken my kids I would have expected the poopy lot to be kept in after so if my route home takes me anywhere near the away end (which when im staying in Southampton it does) I would have walked right out and been not far from the problems. Plenty of familys there your right but I still wouldnt have been happy looking after 3 kids when all that was going on.

What actually happened wasnt that much but the courts have delt with it in such a way that the liklyhood of it getting worse next time is greatly reduced and maybe next time I will take my kids along. Had they done naff all the chances are that next time may be more serious would mean I would be less likly to take my kids.

The police didnt do enough to stop it happening clearly as they let the poopy lot out at the same time but they did enough to keep the 2 sets of fans apart. Maybe they should have just sat back completly and let the mindless idiots beat each other to death. then dish out a few banning orders for being very naughty boys.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Thank God these thugs have been put away, I already feel safer in the knowledge that I can enjoy Southampton games without the threat of violence posed by these neanderthols.

Good riddance. Hope they learn their ****ing lesson. Act like an idiot, and you should be punished.

[saintjay77]

Southampton v Yeovil

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Stamping on persons head.
Sentence - Suspended sentence and 3 year football ban.

Southampton v Portsmouth

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Grabbing a Fence
Sentence - 12 months inprisonment, 6 year ban from football.

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Tossing a plastic chair in the air, hitting nobody.
Sentence - 14 months inprisonment. 6 year ban from football.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't deserve to be punished... but there is a severe lack of consistancy, which I think is what peoples gripe is.

What do you class as more sever? Grabbing a fence or stamping on someones head?

Agree completly but that just highlights up how stupid the sentance was for saints v yeovil.

If these tougher sentances are the new bench mark and are followed up with more tougher sentances for future problems then it should reduce the problems in and around footy.

If the sentances carry on like they did for the saints v yeovil incident then its not really going to deter mindless idiots at all is it?

[INFLUENCED.COM]

By the time we next play them most will have forgotten about these sentances and the same will occur, unless of course, the Police ensure the majority of our fans have dispersed before opening the doors to them which should have happened this time, those intent on 'meeting up' will do so irrespective but that would be a limited few.
DBP's post above highlights how inconsitent and disproportionate these sentances are

[Turkish]

why do some people insist on refering to the Skates as Poopy? They deserve to have a coin thrown at them just for the irritation factor of that stupid word.

[West End Saint]

I have to say that the punishment is very harsh for the crime when you look at what is going on in the world.

If this wasnt Football related I can't see the sentences would be the same.

I am not saying they should be let off if they were not involved they wouldnt have a problem but I do think it is harsh.

[norwaysaint]

They were all grown ups, knowingly doing illegal things right in front of the police. Seems fair enough.

[saintjay77]

why do some people insist on refering to the Skates as Poopy? They deserve to have a coin thrown at them just for the irritation factor of that stupid word.

You would have to have a strong arm to throw it at me then.

If you want to call them by there proper name then do it. Skates is another word that we use and as I am and have been for years a skater I dont like to insult my 4 wheeled footwear by labeling them down the road with the same word, i choose a different word that makes it both clear who I am talking about while also thinking of sh it.

[Surman4no7shirt]

I can't think of one possible reason why the incident at the Freebourne garages would have had any impact on the day out of any Saints fans at that game


There can't have been more than one or maybe two individuals working at the garage that day, I can appreciate it wouldn't have been a hugely pleasant experience for them, but they were not threatened or attacked in anyway.

If you are working somewhere and £30,000 worth of damage is caused there at the time, I am pretty sure they would feel threatened, and the point you were making was that it wouldn’t have an impact, which obviously it would, as you have just stated in your second; contradictory post.

FWIW I agree that there is a lack of consistency in the English and Welsh justice system (know nothing about the separate Scottish courts) in terms of sentencing. However, blaming the police for the incident or playing the incident down is not a valid argument, its like blaming tree’s for global warming because they don’t convert enough CO2 into oxygen.

[Sour Mash]

If you are working somewhere and £30,000 worth of damage is caused there at the time, I am pretty sure they would feel threatened, and the point you were making was that it wouldn’t have an impact, which obviously it would, as you have just stated in your second; contradictory post.

FWIW I agree that there is a lack of consistency in the English and Welsh justice system (know nothing about the separate Scottish courts) in terms of sentencing. However, blaming the police for the incident or playing the incident down is not a valid argument, its like blaming tree’s for global warming because they don’t convert enough CO2 into oxygen.

No not necesarrily, depends on the way the damage was done. There were plenty of normal fans just hanging around in the garages watching all this,including women and fairly young kids. Oh and one or maybe two people out of 30k feeling a bit intimated is unfortunate, but should hardly be classed as a riot. This wasn't a riot or anything like it, it was shaking the fence, chucking a plastic chair and some coins, no "innocent bystander" Saints fans were affected and any skates there could have moved further away, rather than standing there goading and chucking stuff back, like many of us witnessed. Stupid, irresponsible behaviour? Yes? Worthy of these heavy sentences? Certainly not.

[dune]

One simple question. Are any of us going to feel safer at St Marys next season knowing that these 12 guys, who weren't know to Hampshire police as trouble makers, are behind bars?

Yes, because all the yobs now know where they stand. Behave or go to jail.

[View From The Top]

TBH I wouldnt expect any problems sitting in the family stand. But outside the ground with a bunch of moronic poopy fans near by I would have half expected things to be thrown and saints fans to react. I just dont fancy putting 3 kids under 11 into that kind of situation. Taking my kids into a potenial riot situation to show I have grown a pair doesnt seem like the way forward to me.

With all that said, the OB should have done better but it still doesnt excuse the mindless idiots getting involved.

Strange how we managed to walk to and from the game, 2 adults with three kids under 10, without an issue.

We saw no rioting or disorder.

Potential riot situation my arse.

[OldNick]

Stu - if I was to come around your house and throw stones at your car causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage, what punishment would you be happy for me to receive?

Or, in other words, what level of punishment would you put in place that would deter me from doing it in the first place?

Genuine question.Trousers, the thing is we all know if that did happe n the police would either take no action or the perpetrator would get a 25quid fine and 5 hours community service. Do not tell me he would get 12 months inside. That is why I believe it was harsh

[trousers]

Trousers, the thing is we all know if that did happe n the police would either take no action or the perpetrator would get a 25quid fine and 5 hours community service. Do not tell me he would get 12 months inside. That is why I believe it was harsh

But that's my point. I was asking Stu what level of deterent (aka punishment) he would put in place rather than, as you rightly point out, the inconsistent malaise that we have now.

So, yep, totally agree but my question was seeking a solution to the existing problem

[Wes Tender]

Well do they have any 'previous'? if they dont then that suggests they are apart from one moment of madness. As far as i am aware only one or two do, so the vast majority would be considered law abising citizens, have jobs, families, etc which they risk losing because of 2 minutes of stupidity. But seriously, 14 months for throwing a plastic chair, 12 months for throwing a stone, stuck in prison in Parkhurst with murders, armed robbers etc, do you seriously think that is right?

Look, I already pointed out that I'm not passing comment on whether the severity of the punishment was commensurate with the seriousness or otherwise of the crime. Neither do I make anything of whether these people had previous or not. I simply do not accept that anybody can be categorised as being a model decent and law abiding citizen if they acted in the way that these people did who have been meted out jail sentences. How much is excusable as being one moment of madness? If it was drink related, then at least there is an excuse of them not being compos mentis perhaps, although of course that does not qualify as a let off if they get behind the wheel of a car. It seems to me that this one moment of madness could be used to excuse all manner of criminal activity, whereas most law-abiding citizens would be incapable of these misdemeanours, almost by definition.

[Denzil]

They were all grown ups, knowingly doing illegal things right in front of the police. Seems fair enough.



You sound like a right laugh. I bet there's never a dull moment in your house.

WAC.

[mcjwills]

Southampton v Yeovil

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Stamping on persons head.
Sentence - Suspended sentence and 3 year football ban.

Southampton v Portsmouth

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Grabbing a Fence
Sentence - 12 months inprisonment, 6 year ban from football.

Charge - Violent Disorder
Offence - Tossing a plastic chair in the air, hitting nobody.
Sentence - 14 months inprisonment. 6 year ban from football.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't deserve to be punished... but there is a severe lack of consistancy, which I think is what peoples gripe is.

What do you class as more severe? Grabbing a fence or stamping on someones head?

I think I know which one I would rather see punished.


Well its obvious the judge who gave out the sentence for the Yeovil game didn't give out a harsh enough one for the idiots at the Portsmouth game to pay enough attention, perhaps the sentences handed out for the Portsmouth game will make people sit up and take notice, and hence the harshness if the sentences,

[Jonnyboy]

You would have to have a strong arm to throw it at me then.

If you want to call them by there proper name then do it. Skates is another word that we use and as I am and have been for years a skater I dont like to insult my 4 wheeled footwear by labeling them down the road with the same word, i choose a different word that makes it both clear who I am talking about while also thinking of sh it.

skateboarding should be a crime

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Well its obvious the judge who gave out the sentence for the Yeovil game didn't give out a harsh enough one for the idiots at the Portsmouth game to pay enough attention, perhaps the sentences handed out for the Portsmouth game will make people sit up and take notice, and hence the harshness if the sentences,

Without being pedantic, the Yeovil incident went to court AFTER the Portsmouth game had been played.

[JRM]

I can't believe some of the smug cu'nts on here taking great enjoyment in a group of fellow saints fans being stitched up by the police / government conspiracy. The police deliberately let the skates out at the same time. They then sat back at filmed rubbing their hands knowing it would kick off and thanks very much those convictions will earn them another season of cushty overtime. All the best to the lads involved, none of them deserve a custodial hopefully they and their families will be ok. It disgusts me the saints fans will be entering prison passing rapists, muggers at peados on their way out on early release. This country has its priorities all wrong.

[dune]

I can't believe some of the smug cu'nts on here taking great enjoyment in a group of fellow saints fans being stitched up by the police / government conspiracy. The police deliberately let the skates out at the same time. They then sat back at filmed rubbing their hands knowing it would kick off and thanks very much those convictions will earn them another season of cushty overtime. All the best to the lads involved, none of them deserve a custodial hopefully they and their families will be ok. It disgusts me the saints fans will be entering prison passing rapists, muggers at peados on their way out on early release. This country has its priorities all wrong.

The sentences do seem harsh but in terms of a detterent they are just what was needed. In recent years hooliganism has once again grown and it's only tough action such as this that will make the hoodlums think twice. If in future derbies there is less trouble then you'll be grateful that the courts took this action.

[saintjay77]

skateboarding should be a crime

I agree cause I skate on skate's. Ice or Roller but not board. Play skater and ice hockey as I cant run for sh it. :D

[John B]

The sentences do seem harsh but in terms of a detterent they are just what was needed. In recent years hooliganism has once again grown and it's only tough action such as this that will make the hoodlums think twice. If in future derbies there is less trouble then you'll be grateful that the courts took this action.

Dont forget the 2018 World Cup is up for grabs and we dont want football violence to harm our chances

[up and away]

One simple question. Are any of us going to feel safer at St Marys next season knowing that these 12 guys, who weren't know to Hampshire police as trouble makers, are behind bars?

The sentences by comparison are extremely harsh and the police should have kept the Pompey fans in St mary's for at least 45 minutes after full time, as we had to suffer at Fratton park. But the reason for these sentences are because of the past history of mass football violence and why the government insists upon it being eradicated early. When you have trouble on this scale it is virtually impossible for a police force to control the situation and we have clearly seen in the past horrific personal injuries and financial damage. Because football violence on this scale is so difficult to control, the authorities bring the full force of the law to bear to attempt to keep this to a minimum. This is how football violence was reduced to next to nothing previously. It's the same laws and penalties, just several have forgotten because it was so long ago.

Now anyone who has not figured that out by now has to pay the price for not thinking more than their actions!

[Thedelldays]

lol at this thread..

a bunch of numbnuts have gone to prison for a few months....big deal..

maybe next time..instead of frothing at the mouth when we play pompey...they will go straight home (if they are even allowed in SMS)

[Noodles34]

[QUOTE=Turkish;763877]One simple question. Are any of us going to feel safer at St Marys next season knowing that these 12 guys, who weren't know to Hampshire police as trouble makers, are behind bars?[/QUOTE

Err, a couple that I know are serious trouble makers mate, the father and son, Steve and Cameron Jordan, very well known indeed. I spoke to Steve after the incident before the arrrests and the way he said it was the way it looked, a bit of fence shaking and a few things thrown (from both sides it has to be said), he didn't think it was much, guess he was wrong!
Anyone know what happened to the Skates who were throwing stuff?

[wagon 84]

Anyone know what happened to the Skates who were throwing stuff? Nothing
No surprise there really as the ob are only targeting our lot.
Does anyone know yet why the ob let the skates out the same time as us yet?

[docker-p]

There is no justice in those sentences. If they had raped someone they would have got less. Absolutely ridiculous. Good luck to them, i hope they appeal

[alehouseboys]

Anyone know what happened to the Skates who were throwing stuff?

I'm sure their pictures will be plastered all across the local papers shortly as it's been pointed out things were being thrown in both directions. And that skate that was caught throwing the firework at the Police...wow is he in the sh............

The local OB and the courts have certainly set the bar now for football hooligans, all those nawty 657 are gonna have to watch their step now they're back in the unruly lower leagues.

[Pecho Lobo]

I haven't read the whole thread just parts so not sure if this has been pointed out yet. Violent disorder is , in the scheme of public order offences a serious matter and is one down from riot. That I suspect is the reason for the sentences which would be entirely in line with sentencing guidelines for this offence. It is not a question of just being abusive but far more serious than that, and the group element is a major part of the offence.It is the behaviour of the group taken together using or threatening unlawful violence etc. There is no point in comparing it to any other criminal offence (driving etc) since the sentence would be in accordance with guidelines for violent disorder and it is the elements of this offence that are relevant.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

lol at this thread..

a bunch of numbnuts have gone to prison for a few months....big deal..

maybe next time..instead of frothing at the mouth when we play pompey...they will go straight home (if they are even allowed in SMS)

That's a surprise, Delldays coming on a thread, disagreeing with something, trying to get a reaction.

I suggest you find a hobby, or a girlfriend, it might give you a new sense of being.

[docker-p]

I haven't read the whole thread just parts so not sure if this has been pointed out yet. Violent disorder is , in the scheme of public order offences a serious matter and is one down from riot. That I suspect is the reason for the sentences which would be entirely in line with sentencing guidelines for this offence. It is not a question of just being abusive but far more serious than that, and the group element is a major part of the offence.It is the behaviour of the group taken together using or threatening unlawful violence etc. There is no point in comparing it to any other criminal offence (driving etc) since the sentence would be in accordance with guidelines for violent disorder and it is the elements of this offence that are relevant.
But the few the OB managed to get shouldn't have to serve a day or two for all those the OB couldn't get, which appears the case. This is banana republic justice. You can tell the Tories are back at the helm :)

[LGTL]

Isn't it strange how the Police let us all out at the same time, and then have had people sent to jail for a year for pushing a fence. It looks like they got what they wanted anyway.

[alehouseboys]

I haven't read the whole thread just parts so not sure if this has been pointed out yet. Violent disorder is , in the scheme of public order offences a serious matter and is one down from riot. That I suspect is the reason for the sentences which would be entirely in line with sentencing guidelines for this offence. It is not a question of just being abusive but far more serious than that, and the group element is a major part of the offence.It is the behaviour of the group taken together using or threatening unlawful violence etc. There is no point in comparing it to any other criminal offence (driving etc) since the sentence would be in accordance with guidelines for violent disorder and it is the elements of this offence that are relevant.

Well officer, why wasn't everyone present that day arrested? Both sets of fans were as guilty as each other for the "threat". And you really should have locked up TCWTB years ago, particularly for p*ssing on our seats.

And...why did you let them out at the same time?

[trousers]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3Av6630aEDxqNu3M%3A%3Adealbreaker.com %2F2009%2F11%2F19%2F&t=1&usg=AFrqEzew1eTV3SYCS6ZGzFasAW0NPVt90Q

[Ponty]

Isn't it strange how the Police let us all out at the same time, and then have had people sent to jail for a year for pushing a fence. It looks like they got what they wanted anyway.

They were given what they wanted! That's the whole point. No one, not the police or anyone else, made them throw sh*t and grab at the fence, etc. That was their choice.

[100%Red&White]

They were given what they wanted! That's the whole point. No one, not the police or anyone else, made them throw sh*t and grab at the fence, etc. That was their choice.

If that IS the reason they let everyone out the same time then the Police took a mighty gamble as it could have resulted in innocent people getting caught up in serious violence.

They got lucky both sets of fans couldn't break through a wire fence and a dozen Saints fans were snapped throwing stones/rattling fences. I guess they got lucky.

[BridgnorthSaint]

Are you saying that them losing their jobs, having their lives turned upside down, children having their parents taken away is an acceptable punishment for throwing a fookin coin?

You seriously are retarded.

Yep - If I was the judge I'd have added a public flogging - They are a disgrace to our club

[wagon 84]

yep - if i was the judge i'd have added a public flogging - they are a disgrace to our club

t.w.a.t

[warsash saint]

If that IS the reason they let everyone out the same time then the Police took a mighty gamble as it could have resulted in innocent people getting caught up in serious violence.

They got lucky both sets of fans couldn't break through a wire fence and a dozen Saints fans were snapped throwing stones/rattling fences. I guess they got lucky.

I agree that on reflection it was probably a stupid idea for the Police to let everyone out at same time BUT I assume the Police has to weigh up whether the Skates would cause more trouble keeping them in & trashing the place like they did last time.

[Turkish]

Yes, because all the yobs now know where they stand. Behave or go to jail.

I am not talking about 'all the yobs' are our strets a safer place because becuase these guys are in jail. Also do you think it is right that a few fall guys, not known to police, not know to the courts as 'hooligans' are hung out to dry so 'all the yobs' as you put it know where they stand? The stand out one for me was the guy who got a year for grabbing the fence and shouting aggresively. **** me, i've shouted aggresively at football a few times myself, we best watch our step next season or there'll be plenty more year jail terms and 6 year bans dished out if this is the benchmark for violent disorder

[dune]

I am not talking about 'all the yobs' are our strets a safer place because becuase these guys are in jail. Also do you think it is right that a few fall guys, not known to police, not know to the courts as 'hooligans' are hung out to dry so 'all the yobs' as you put it know where they stand? The stand out one for me was the guy who got a year for grabbing the fence and shouting aggresively. **** me, i've shouted aggresively at football a few times myself, we best watch our step next season or there'll be plenty more year jail terms and 6 year bans dished out if this is the benchmark for violent disorder

I refer you back to the previous comment. Seriously 99.99% of fans go to the football for a laugh and visiting different towns and cities and enjoying meeting people from them is what it should be all about. In the 50's and 60's Saints fans used to watch Pompey and vice versa. That is what it's all about. All these yobs that have attached themselves to clubs are not how it was and they are not how it should be. It's time to move on and grow up.

[Daren W]

As a footnote to all of this, has anyone questioned the police in all of this? Amongst all the pro and con of this debate, has anyone suggested the police hold an inquiry as to why, on a hotly contested, top graded local derby, the police saw fit to let home and away fans mingle out side the ground?
People are in prison, now will the police be held accountable for their incompetence?

[dune]

As a footnote to all of this, has anyone questioned the police in all of this? Amongst all the pro and con of this debate, has anyone suggested the police hold an inquiry as to why, on a hotly contested, top graded local derby, the police saw fit to let home and away fans mingle out side the ground?
People are in prison, now will the police be held accountable for their incompetence?

Letting the Pompey fans out at the same time was the right thing to do. Why should innocent Pompey fans be made to walk through St Marys to their cars stood out like sore thumbs because the bulk of the crowd had dispersed?

[Pedro]

So prisons can't be bursting at the seams or the Government directive about not jailing burglars etc is bullsh**t otherwise these would have got community service, suspended sentences or something similar.

Claus got a drug offence lingering, didn't do his drink driving rehab and in court for assaulting a woman, got a £500 fine. The judge said it didn't concern him af jobs and families were affected and yet when sentences are considered these factors are usually taken into account, totally OTT.

The OB didn't try to stop what happened, just wanted it to start so they could film it, get some convictions and brownie points. All this could have been avoided and the whole of the garage could have been fenced off so that the re-directed fans couldn't shortcut across the forecourt.

[Turkish]

I refer you back to the previous comment. Seriously 99.99% of fans go to the football for a laugh and visiting different towns and cities and enjoying meeting people from them is what it should be all about. In the 50's and 60's Saints fans used to watch Pompey and vice versa. That is what it's all about. All these yobs that have attached themselves to clubs are not how it was and they are not how it should be. It's time to move on and grow up.

and a lot of people shout aggresively, they had better sleep with their shoes on if shouting aggresively is violent disorder.

[Turkish]

Letting the Pompey fans out at the same time was the right thing to do. Why should innocent Pompey fans be made to walk through St Marys to their cars stood out like sore thumbs because the bulk of the crowd had dispersed?

You really are clueless. Morally maybe it was but for safety of the public was it? If it was why does every derby in the country, including the ones at Fratton Park in 04-05, keep away fans in? Maybe in your world everyone walks the streets holding hands and swaps scarves and kisses each other on the cheek whilst congratulating their rivals on their win and the other side wishing them better luck next time. But, as is becoming quite evident, you dont live in the real world.

[Turkish]

As a footnote to all of this, has anyone questioned the police in all of this? Amongst all the pro and con of this debate, has anyone suggested the police hold an inquiry as to why, on a hotly contested, top graded local derby, the police saw fit to let home and away fans mingle out side the ground?
People are in prison, now will the police be held accountable for their incompetence?

No, but they should be. I'd also add that the echo should be taken to task for glamourising it. Headline news now on 7 occasions since the day of the derby. If it wasn't for the echo glorifying the incident it would have long been forgotten. I also get the impression the police were hoping for something to happen, they even had a BBC film crew following them around on the day FFS!!! Interesting that the police at first descirbed it as a job well done and they kept trouble to a minimum yet now they have got their headlines and convictions they stopped a riot. Amazing what a few headlines can do.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

As a footnote to all of this, has anyone questioned the police in all of this? Amongst all the pro and con of this debate, has anyone suggested the police hold an inquiry as to why, on a hotly contested, top graded local derby, the police saw fit to let home and away fans mingle out side the ground?
People are in prison, now will the police be held accountable for their incompetence?

I believe that people should email the IPCC and question this.

Someone needs to be held accountable from the police force for making the decision to let fans out at the same time.

[trousers]

I believe that people should email the IPCC and question this.

Someone needs to be held accountable from the police force for making the decision to let fans out at the same time.

Perhaps they thought that football fans were clever enough not to start fighting with other football fans.....oh....

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Perhaps they thought that football fans were clever enough not to start fighting with other football fans.....oh....

Would you say that someone should be held accountable for that very foolish decision to let Southampton and Portsmouth fans out at the same time? It was not hard to predict what was going to happen. This is why every other single *hostile derby in the country uses this tactic, without exception.

What is it they say about assumptions being the mother of all f*ck-ups?

[dune]

You really are clueless. Morally maybe it was but for safety of the public was it? If it was why does every derby in the country, including the ones at Fratton Park in 04-05, keep away fans in? Maybe in your world everyone walks the streets holding hands and swaps scarves and kisses each other on the cheek whilst congratulating their rivals on their win and the other side wishing them better luck next time. But, as is becoming quite evident, you dont live in the real world.

You're the one that is looking for angles to shift the blame away from the thugs. Morally it was the right course of action - why should the thugs dictate when fans leave a stadium? In the safety of the public it was the right course of action - why should normal pompey fans be exposed to feral thugs by being forced to walk through St marys when the bulk of the crowd had dispersed? Your whole stance on this is in favour of the criminals and I applaud Hampshire Constabulary for putting the general public first.

[trousers]

Would you say that someone should be held accountable for that very foolish decision to let Southampton and Portsmouth fans out at the same time? It was not hard to predict what was going to happen. This is why every other single *hostile derby in the country uses this tactic, without exception.

What is it they say about assumptions being the mother of all f*ck-ups?

I agree that it was a somewhat strange move by the police given the inability of some human beings to walk from A-to-B without getting involved in some aggro but it's a sad indictment on 'Great' Britain today when some people appear to be looking at the police as the root cause here when in fact the root cause is some human beings being incapable of avoiding conflict.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

I agree that it was a somewhat strange move by the police given the inability of some human beings to walk from A-to-B without getting involved in some aggro but it's a sad indictment on 'Great' Britain today when some people appear to be looking at the police as the root cause here when in fact the root cause is some human beings being incapable of avoiding conflict.

The police have a duty to protect the public from all forms of criminal activity, including public disorder.

Of course it is the fault of the individuals for the disorder, but on a much more serious scale, it is the fault of the police for allowing it to happen though bad policing decisions.

They need to be held accountable for that in the same way that the individuals jailed have been held accountable for their actions.

[Turkish]

I agree that it was a somewhat strange move by the police given the inability of some human beings to walk from A-to-B without getting involved in some aggro but it's a sad indictment on 'Great' Britain today when some people appear to be looking at the police as the root cause here when in fact the root cause is some human beings being incapable of avoiding conflict.

FFS!!!!! No one is saying that!!! Should thye have done it? - no. Are they responsible for their actions? - yes- did they deserve to be punished for being stupid? yes. were the sentances over the top? - yes, could the whole thing have been avoided if the police had done what every other police force and every other derby in everyother town does? - yes. So none of this need never happen if the police had shown common sense and for that they need to be held accountable, as have the guys that commited the so called violent disorder.

[trousers]

FFS!!!!! No one is saying that!!! Should thye have done it? - no. Are they responsible for their actions? - yes- did they deserve to be punished for being stupid? yes. were the sentances over the top? - yes, could the whole thing have been avoided if the police had done what every other police force and every other derby in everyother town does? - yes. So none of this need never happen if the police had shown common sense and for that they need to be held accountable, as have the guys that commited the so called violent disorder.

Fair point

[Gorgiesaint]

I believe that people should email the IPCC and question this.

Someone needs to be held accountable from the police force for making the decision to let fans out at the same time.


The police have a duty to protect the public from all forms of criminal activity, including public disorder.

Of course it is the fault of the individuals for the disorder, but on a much more serious scale, it is the fault of the police for allowing it to happen though bad policing decisions.

They need to be held accountable for that in the same way that the individuals jailed have been held accountable for their actions.

Spot on. In the same way, they have to operate for rules of entrapment for various offences - it was a crazy decision to let both sets of fans out at the same time given what had happened in the game. Saints fans were held in for 45 minutes at their last visit to fartton, why? Because it was the right thing to do. The same should have applied here. Whoever made the decision has to be made accountable for some poor decision making, in the same way that these individuals have now been made accountable for their actions.

[SET]

Point still stands. Had they gone home like the rest of us rather than try to goad the ob and Pompey. They would not now be in prison, only themselves to blame.

[dune]

FFS!!!!! No one is saying that!!! Should thye have done it? - no. Are they responsible for their actions? - yes- did they deserve to be punished for being stupid? yes. were the sentances over the top? - yes, could the whole thing have been avoided if the police had done what every other police force and every other derby in everyother town does? - yes. So none of this need never happen if the police had shown common sense and for that they need to be held accountable, as have the guys that commited the so called violent disorder.

The police have nothing to be held accountable for. They did their job and they did it well. The fact that the innocent Pompey fans were able to blend in with the crowds and safely get to their cars without sticking out like sore thumbs is a credit to the operation.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

The police have nothing to be held accountable for. They did their job and they did it well. The fact that the innocent Pompey fans were able to blend in with the crowds and safely get to their cars without sticking out like sore thumbs is a credit to the operation.

I am sure the lady who had her car vandalised as she was leaving would have a different opinion of that.

Also, I think you forget that they let the Portsmouth fans out then held them in Britannia Road and did not let them go on their way, only very few women/families were allowed out of the corden. So with respect Dune, you are talking rubbish.

[saintjay77]

FFS!!!!! No one is saying that!!! Should thye have done it? - no. Are they responsible for their actions? - yes- did they deserve to be punished for being stupid? yes. were the sentances over the top? - yes, could the whole thing have been avoided if the police had done what every other police force and every other derby in everyother town does? - yes. So none of this need never happen if the police had shown common sense and for that they need to be held accountable, as have the guys that commited the so called violent disorder.

I agree with all of that but just to make a point. The Sentances were pretty good when you consider they were looking at a maximum of 5 years inside. The charges while technically correct were probably on the extreme side and im sure there could have been different charges used that would have carried a lower sentance.

As for letting them out at the same time or not, I guess they thought that after investing in a fence to seperate the fans it made sense to them to use it by letting them out together. If they wanted to let them out seperatly I doubt they would have put the fence up and just shepparded them into the ground then then just left them for an hour befole letting them on there way. Just a guess mind as I dont know if a fence has been put up elsewhere and staggered exits used or not.

Either way, Saints v poopy is always going to be a game under the spot light and the OB were always going to try to be seen as being tough on Football related crime so they were bound to get a result in there mind. Makes anyone that stepped over the line a little more stupid IMO as it was not as if it wasnt expected.

[dune]

I am sure the lady who had her car vandalised as she was leaving would have a different opinion of that.

Also, I think you forget that they let the Portsmouth fans out then held them in Britannia Road and did not let them go on their way, only very few women/families were allowed out of the corden. So with respect Dune, you are talking rubbish.

No Stu, i'm not talking rubbish. The incident with the grown "men" picking on a middle aged woman only serves to illustrate the people the police are dealing with and you could extraoplate that single incident to multiple incidents had the yobs been given the opportunity to "get at" more pompey fans. If these lowlifes were prepared to vent their irrational anger on a middle aged woman one can only assume they would have taken it one step further against a man.

Ask yourself this:

Should the priority of the police be to protect the feral louts from themselves or to protect the inocent public from the feral louts? Any rational person would support the latter and therefore the police did the right thing in allowing the Pompey fans out at the same time so they had a chance of blending in with the dispersing crowd.

Thankyou for bringing this incident to mt attention as it only serves to illustrate the point I was making.

[Sour Mash]

I agree with all of that but just to make a point. The Sentances were pretty good when you consider they were looking at a maximum of 5 years inside.

No they weren't. You yet again show how little you know about this subject.

[100%Red&White]

There were plenty of vids on the web just after the derby showing both sets of fans acting in a 'threatening' manner, the one that appears most is probably as the skates came out of Southampton Central. They were constantly trying to break out of the police cordon and, I think I remember correctly, at least one was arrested for throwing a firework at a Police horse. Yet all the Police cameras appear to have been solely pointed at Saints fans.

For what these Saints fans have gone down for surely a number of skates should have faced similar justice?

[Turkish]

No Stu, i'm not talking rubbish. The incident with the grown "men" picking on a middle aged woman only serves to illustrate the people the police are dealing with and you could extraoplate that single incident to multiple incidents had the yobs been given the opportunity to "get at" more pompey fans. If these lowlifes were prepared to vent their irrational anger on a middle aged woman one can only assume they would have taken it one step further against a man.

Ask yourself this:

Should the priority of the police be to protect the feral louts from themselves or to protect the inocent public from the feral louts? Any rational person would support the latter and therefore the police did the right thing in allowing the Pompey fans out at the same time so they had a chance of blending in with the dispersing crowd.

Thankyou for bringing this incident to mt attention as it only serves to illustrate the point I was making.

Dune, i saw the incident you are talking about, i was there, i am on the you tube clip walking past the car, i saw the grown 'men' picking on middle aged women. You dont have a clue what you are talking about. It was ONE man, this man was told to **** off by people round him and stop being a *****, all Saints fans, the car allowed to pass through the crowd without any further hassle. Would that happen in Portsmouth? I would put my mortagage on it that it wouldn't.

As for your comment about the Pompey fans being allowed to blend in with the crowd, do you really believe that there weren't just as many pompey fans who would have been up for a ruck if they'd be allowed too? Do you really believe that the Pompey fans would just go on their merry way, the fans mingling and chatting to each other with gay abandon? If you really think that after the game one of the firecest rivalries in English football would result in a love in as they all walked home together then you dont live in another planet you live in another universe.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

We should make Dune incharge of Hampshire Constabulary.

By his opinions, we wouldn't need a police force, apart from arresting people. Because at the end of the day, it's not up to the police to prevent disorder. lol

[Turkish]

You're the one that is looking for angles to shift the blame away from the thugs. Morally it was the right course of action - why should the thugs dictate when fans leave a stadium? In the safety of the public it was the right course of action - why should normal pompey fans be exposed to feral thugs by being forced to walk through St marys when the bulk of the crowd had dispersed? Your whole stance on this is in favour of the criminals and I applaud Hampshire Constabulary for putting the general public first.

Well why bother having police at all? just let everyone out together, in fact, do away with segregation too and ticketing, let everyone just turn up and all sit together. What happens happens. Why let a simple thing like safety get in the way.

[dune]

Well why bother having police at all? just let everyone out together, in fact, do away with segregation too and ticketing, let everyone just turn up and all sit together. What happens happens. Why let a simple thing like safety get in the way.

During the 50's and 60's there was no segregation. The police and the government need to look back to then to solve the yob problem. National Service is the answer imo.

[SFKA South Woodford]

Surely this should work both ways then, by your logic, the 2000 of us that were at Fratton in 2004 have had our civil liberties curtailed illegally by Hampshire police. Should we launch a joint action against them?

I'm a normal Saints fan, who has no interest in violence, and yet I was kept locked in that sh*thole along with over 1900 other decent law abiding Saints fans because the police were in your estimation cow towing to their feral thugs. We then stood out like sore thumbs to their thugs when leaving that pit, and those that used the train to get to the game, were subjected to a multitude of things being thrown at them and verbal abuse from people whose houses and flats were passed on the way back to the station, the police even knew where those people lived, yet were any of them arrested, no.

I take exception to excessive sentencing and erosion of our civil liberties in this country, especially with police incitement at mass protest events for which offences have been recategorised and sentences stiffened, protest is a civil right and one of the things that my grandparents generation were willing to lay their lives on the line to protect, and yet you can now get a stiffer sentence for exercising that right than you can for mugging an old lady. There were even arrests made at the countryside alliance march, and that was supposed to have consisted of nothing more than the cream of and most polite and mild mannered in society.

[saintjay77]

No they weren't. You yet again show how little you know about this subject.

No of course your right. 5 years would have been so much better than 1 year.

Violent disorder
Title: Public order
Offence: Violent disorder
Legislation: Section 2 Public Order Act 1986
Commencement Date:
Mode of Trial: Either Way
Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: 5 years

Get back in your box FFS

[saintjay77]

There were plenty of vids on the web just after the derby showing both sets of fans acting in a 'threatening' manner, the one that appears most is probably as the skates came out of Southampton Central. They were constantly trying to break out of the police cordon and, I think I remember correctly, at least one was arrested for throwing a firework at a Police horse. Yet all the Police cameras appear to have been solely pointed at Saints fans.

For what these Saints fans have gone down for surely a number of skates should have faced similar justice?

I think it sucks that some from the poopy lot were not also charged with similar offences but im guessing that being the minority group may have had something to do with it?

[saintjay77]

Well why bother having police at all? just let everyone out together, in fact, do away with segregation too and ticketing, let everyone just turn up and all sit together. What happens happens. Why let a simple thing like safety get in the way.

Some of that works in Rugby. ;)

[Sour Mash]

No of course your right. 5 years would have been so much better than 1 year.

Violent disorder
Title: Public order
Offence: Violent disorder
Legislation: Section 2 Public Order Act 1986
Commencement Date:
Mode of Trial: Either Way
Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: 5 years

Get back in your box FFS

I know the highest sentence possible is 5 years. That in know way makes their sentences "good" or "lucky". You do not understand how sentencing works. God knows why you post on this thread.

[saintjay77]

I know the highest sentence possible is 5 years. That in know way makes their sentences "good" or "lucky". You do not understand how sentencing works. God knows why you post on this thread.

When the maximum sentance is 5 years and they only got 1 I would say they got off fairly lightly. That doesnt take much understanding IMO.

They were unlucky to be charged with Violent Disorder for on the face of it, doing not allot.

I dont know why I have to explain almost everyone of my posts to you but if you really want me to get off "your" thread just ask. This being a Saints Forum and me being a Paid member and a Saints fan I thought I have every right to post and give my opinion. I am not trying to state anything as fact but trying to be objective. If you have a problem with that then hit the ignore button and feck off. x

[Turkish]

When the maximum sentance is 5 years and they only got 1 I would say they got off fairly lightly. That doesnt take much understanding IMO.

They were unlucky to be charged with Violent Disorder for on the face of it, doing not allot.

I dont know why I have to explain almost everyone of my posts to you but if you really want me to get off "your" thread just ask. This being a Saints Forum and me being a Paid member and a Saints fan I thought I have every right to post and give my opinion. I am not trying to state anything as fact but trying to be objective. If you have a problem with that then hit the ignore button and feck off. x

Or alternatively they could have done away with the drama and expense of a crown court trial and put it through magistates where the maximum is 6 months

Arrest and Punishment
‘Violent disorder’ is triable either way although it will usually be tried on indictment. It carries a maximum sentence of 5 years on indictment or 6 months before magistrates and is therefore an “arrestable offence”. At a trial on indictment, a jury will usually have the alternative option of convicting the defendant of the lesser offence of threatening behaviour (Section 4 of the act).

Or they could have given them a threatening behaviour charge which according to the above a jury usually have the option of. Not quite so dramatic in the media that though is it.

[Rowan Gorilla 5]

We need to blame someone or something for all of this. I know, authority. It must be the collective faults of the police, the CPS and the courts that all of this happened and a number of unfortunate innocents were wrongly convicted and given grossly disproportionate sentences for what they were wrongly convicted for in the first instance. Outrage. Why isn't the criminal justice system more like Minority Report? That would sort it. Wouldn't it? Oh no, innocent until proven guilty isn't it? Back to the drawing board then.

I seriously don't know what some people expect. How are the police meant to totally prevent large-scale public disorder? If disorder does take place then the police are wrong to arrest those they catch in the interests of fairness because some others got away? It's wrong that these same people are then found guilty even though evidence and the letter of the law suggests that they are? It's wrong that custodial sentences of roughly 12 months each are handed out because a murderer might get away with 14 years?

They broke the law. They were caught. They were found guilty. They were punished.

Lucky they don't live in certain other countries where the police are slightly more hands on and a little less accountable and the sentences passed down by the courts just a bit sterner.

[Sour Mash]

We need to blame someone or something for all of this. I know, authority. It must be the collective faults of the police, the CPS and the courts that all of this happened and a number of unfortunate innocents were wrongly convicted and given grossly disproportionate sentences for what they were wrongly convicted for in the first instance. Outrage. Why isn't the criminal justice system more like Minority Report? That would sort it. Wouldn't it? Oh no, innocent until proven guilty isn't it? Back to the drawing board then.

I seriously don't know what some people expect. How are the police meant to totally prevent large-scale public disorder? If disorder does take place then the police are wrong to arrest those they catch in the interests of fairness because some others got away? It's wrong that these same people are then found guilty even though evidence and the letter of the law suggests that they are? It's wrong that custodial sentences of roughly 12 months each are handed out because a murderer might get away with 14 years?

They broke the law. They were caught. They were found guilty. They were punished.

Lucky they don't live in certain other countries where the police are slightly more hands on and a little less accountable and the sentences passed down by the courts just a bit sterner.

Ha ha, some of you oddballs seriously crack me up :lol:

[Fan The Flames]

We need to blame someone or something for all of this. I know, authority. It must be the collective faults of the police, the CPS and the courts that all of this happened and a number of unfortunate innocents were wrongly convicted and given grossly disproportionate sentences for what they were wrongly convicted for in the first instance. Outrage. Why isn't the criminal justice system more like Minority Report? That would sort it. Wouldn't it? Oh no, innocent until proven guilty isn't it? Back to the drawing board then.

I seriously don't know what some people expect. How are the police meant to totally prevent large-scale public disorder? If disorder does take place then the police are wrong to arrest those they catch in the interests of fairness because some others got away? It's wrong that these same people are then found guilty even though evidence and the letter of the law suggests that they are? It's wrong that custodial sentences of roughly 12 months each are handed out because a murderer might get away with 14 years?

They broke the law. They were caught. They were found guilty. They were punished.

Lucky they don't live in certain other countries where the police are slightly more hands on and a little less accountable and the sentences passed down by the courts just a bit sterner.


In response to your first point innocent people have been found guilty hundreds of times or the guilty have been given disproportionate sentences in our near perfect judicial system . On the other point no one disagrees with that, the whole point of this thread was the ridiculous custodial sentences these guys got.

[dune]

We need to blame someone or something for all of this. I know, authority. It must be the collective faults of the police, the CPS and the courts that all of this happened and a number of unfortunate innocents were wrongly convicted and given grossly disproportionate sentences for what they were wrongly convicted for in the first instance. Outrage. Why isn't the criminal justice system more like Minority Report? That would sort it. Wouldn't it? Oh no, innocent until proven guilty isn't it? Back to the drawing board then.

I seriously don't know what some people expect. How are the police meant to totally prevent large-scale public disorder? If disorder does take place then the police are wrong to arrest those they catch in the interests of fairness because some others got away? It's wrong that these same people are then found guilty even though evidence and the letter of the law suggests that they are? It's wrong that custodial sentences of roughly 12 months each are handed out because a murderer might get away with 14 years?

They broke the law. They were caught. They were found guilty. They were punished.

Lucky they don't live in certain other countries where the police are slightly more hands on and a little less accountable and the sentences passed down by the courts just a bit sterner.

Well said. I bet that the yobs will think twice before causing trouble at future derby games.

[Turkish]

Well said. I bet that the yobs will think twice before causing trouble at future derby games.

Just out of interest Dune, do you go to games?

[Rowan Gorilla 5]

In response to your first point innocent people have been found guilty hundreds of times or the guilty have been given disproportionate sentences in our near perfect judicial system . On the other point no one disagrees with that, the whole point of this thread was the ridiculous custodial sentences these guys got.

The sentences are not that ridiculous. Check out some of the sentences dished out for the Bradford, Burnley and Oldham riots. Officially large-scale violent disorder and not riots. Just because a repeat burglar gets a slap on the wrist does not mean that 14 months for shaking a fence in this context is over-zealous. It means that the slap on the wrist is too soft a punishment. Complain about that.

[dune]

Just out of interest Dune, do you go to games?

Yep.

[Turkish]

The sentences are not that ridiculous. Check out some of the sentences dished out for the Bradford, Burnley and Oldham riots. Officially large-scale violent disorder and not riots. Just because a repeat burglar gets a slap on the wrist does not mean that 14 months for shaking a fence in this context is over-zealous. It means that the slap on the wrist is too soft a punishment. Complain about that.

Would this be the riots where over 1000 people rioted, throwing firebombs, bricks etc, 300 odd coppers injured? That is exactly the same as a plastic chair and a few bottles tops and stones being thrown over a fence isn't it. I just despair of some peoples logic.

[Turkish]

Yep.

really? Did you go to the Pompey game?

[dune]

really? Did you go to the Pompey game?

Not missed a Derby in years. Carry on.

[Turkish]

Not missed a Derby in years. Carry on.

Of course, you could say anything on here and no one would know any different, anyway, do these derbies you've not missed in years include the ones at Fratton Park? You know, when Saints fans were kept inside for over an hour each time.

[dune]

Of course, you could say anything on here and no one would know any different, anyway, do these derbies you've not missed in years include the ones at Fratton Park? You know, when Saints fans were kept inside for over an hour each time.

Merrington was the boss at my first derby, and i've not missed one since, but of course I could say anything on here.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

I was just up the pub, there was police outside, someone walked straight past them and into a pub and chopped some old grannys head off and casually walked back out the pub, stopping to shake a police officers hand on the way.

I don't blame the police for not stopping it, it's not their job after all, I blame the loon with the machete.

[Turkish]

Merrington was the boss at my first derby, and i've not missed one since, but of course I could say anything on here.

So obviously when Pompey rioted at Fratton Park you were angry that the police kept you in the ground after the game in 2004 and didn't let you out to blend into the crowd outside.

[Turkish]

I was just up the pub, there was police outside, someone walked straight past them and into a pub and chopped some old grannys head off and casually walked back out the pub, stopping to shake a police officers hand on the way.

I don't blame the police for not stopping it, it's not their job after all, I blame the loon with the machete.

I wonder what Dunes take of event in Chandlers Ford was a few years back, when police prevented an armed robbery using guns and shot one of the criminals carrying it out. In Dunes world they should have let the robbery take place, guns and all and stood by and filmed it and hope that the camera footage they recorded was enough to gain convictions at a later date. Rather than stopping it like they did of course. Why should bank robbers dictate to normal bank users when and where they can do their banking. What do you think of that Dune?

[JustMike]

We need to blame someone or something for all of this. I know, authority. It must be the collective faults of the police, the CPS and the courts that all of this happened and a number of unfortunate innocents were wrongly convicted and given grossly disproportionate sentences for what they were wrongly convicted for in the first instance. Outrage. Why isn't the criminal justice system more like Minority Report? That would sort it. Wouldn't it? Oh no, innocent until proven guilty isn't it? Back to the drawing board then.

I seriously don't know what some people expect. How are the police meant to totally prevent large-scale public disorder? If disorder does take place then the police are wrong to arrest those they catch in the interests of fairness because some others got away? It's wrong that these same people are then found guilty even though evidence and the letter of the law suggests that they are? It's wrong that custodial sentences of roughly 12 months each are handed out because a murderer might get away with 14 years?

They broke the law. They were caught. They were found guilty. They were punished.

Lucky they don't live in certain other countries where the police are slightly more hands on and a little less accountable and the sentences passed down by the courts just a bit sterner.

well said!

[Kingsland Nick]

The sentences seem inconsistent with earlier ones arising from the same "riot":

http://http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5009132.Four_fans_in_court_following_derby_game/
FOUR fans involved in violent clashes during the Saints and Pompey FA Cup derby have today been given three-year football banning orders.

Daniel Poskitt, 21, from Sholing Road, Southampton, was charged with causing harrasment, alarm or distress contrary to Section 5 of the Public Order Act. He pleaded guilty and was fined £135 and handed a three year banning order.

The following were charged with fear or provocation of violence contrary to Section 4 of the Public Order Act.

Perran Maddern, 18, from Dairy Lane, Chichester pleaded guilty and was fined £200 and handed a three year banning order.

Mark Davis, 37, from Nightingale Grove, Southampton pleaded guilty and was fined £350 and handed a three year banning order.

David Michael Guy, 44, from Beverley Gardens, Bursledon pleaded guilty and was fined £367 and handed a three year banning order.

They appeared at Southampton Magistrates' Court with four others who were also charged with fear or provocation of violence.

Ashley Singh, 19, from Mandela Way, Southampton pleaded guilty and was fined £100.

Nick Singh Digwa, 29, from Mandela Way, Southampton pleaded guilty and was fined £150.

[and two who pleaded not guilty]

The Crown Prosecution Service is considering appealing the sentences handed to Digwa and Singh to the Crown Court, so they can be issued with football banning orders.

Does anybody know what this group actually did? Some of those jailed don't seem to have done much more than causing alarm or distress.

[JustMike]

Ha ha, some of you oddballs seriously crack me up :lol:

why? what exactly was "oddball" about the post you quoted?

Can't do the time etc etc

[Turkish]

well said!

NOt really, what he said is in fact a load of ********, because no one is saying they were innocent, no one is saying it is the collective fault of the CPS, police etc and someone needs to be blamed. What people are saying is that the sentances,for in one case, shouting aggresively, which carried 12 months, are massively over the top. What people have also said is if the hampshire police did what every other police force in the country and they themselves have done in in recent derbies and kept the away fans in the ground until the area was clear then the whole thing would have been avoided. Which it would have, undoubtedly.

[Ponty]

I wonder what Dunes take of event in Chandlers Ford was a few years back, when police prevented an armed robbery using guns and shot one of the criminals carrying it out. In Dunes world they should have let the robbery take place, guns and all and stood by and filmed it and hope that the camera footage they recorded was enough to gain convictions at a later date. Rather than stopping it like they did of course. Why should bank robbers dictate to normal bank users when and where they can do their banking. What do you think of that Dune?

Well I, for one, think you're reaching slightly. Not quite as far as DBP above but pretty far.

[BridgnorthSaint]

We all break the law everyday, have never done 38 mph in a 30 zone? how many men have never had a fight? Not many i know, let he who is without sin..... The point is these guys day by day are probably decent, law abiding citizens, but they acted stupidly and have been punished for thier actions in a ridiculously over the top way just so the government and Hants OB can be seen to make an example of people, best legal system in the world? It is if your a repeat offender, if are a nornmal bloke you cross the line just once though you are ****ed.

The point you appear to make is a good one - If you get caught committing a crime you must face the consequences. These people now have to face up to the consequences of their pathetic behaviour. If you don't want to go to prison then behave at the match. I am sick of people coming on this site and defending the actions of morons that get a sniff of the barmaids apron and want to fight the world. If you want to fight join the army they are looking for brave fighters, otherwise behave so that others can take their families to the match in safety.

[Turkish]

Well I, for one, think you're reaching slightly. Not quite as far as DBP above but pretty far.

Why? The police prevented that armed robbery. The police could- not saying would have, but COULD have prevented the scenes at Freeborn garage by keeping the pompey fans in, clearing the area then letting them out, like every other police force does. Both are crimes, one was prevented by the actions of the police, which were very brave and commendable, one was not prevented by the actions of the police, when it could have been. What is the difference?

[BridgnorthSaint]

In response to your first point innocent people have been found guilty hundreds of times or the guilty have been given disproportionate sentences in our near perfect judicial system . On the other point no one disagrees with that, the whole point of this thread was the ridiculous custodial sentences these guys got.

Are you implying that they were innocent?

[Gorgiesaint]

I was just up the pub, there was police outside, someone walked straight past them and into a pub and chopped some old grannys head off and casually walked back out the pub, stopping to shake a police officers hand on the way.

I don't blame the police for not stopping it, it's not their job after all, I blame the loon with the machete.

So if the police (on the guys way in) see that he has a machete & can see he's outraged by something, would you expect them to open the door for him, or do something to prevent him using his machete?

By the way - I agree that all of these people need to take personal responsibility for their actions so have no excuses. But the police also have a responsibility.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

So if the police (on the guys way in) see that he has a machete & can see he's outraged by something, would you expect them to open the door for him, or do something to prevent him using his machete?

By the way - I agree that all of these people need to take personal responsibility for their actions so have no excuses. But the police also have a responsibility.

Indeed, it was clearly very hostile and volatile before and during the P*mpey game, so it's the same thing.

Also, who the f*ck do the Cumbria police think they are? I understand they were blocking roads and making people stay indoors, simply because some loon was walking the streets killing people?

Who the f*ck do they think they are? What happened to our civil rights? Just because someone is running around killing people, the police shouldn't be stopping people going down the shop for a loaf of bread just incase he decides to shoot them.

It's a f*cking disgrace. I agree with Dune, rather than try and prevent innocent people getting caught up in it, they should have let people carry on with their normal everyday life.

I am writing an email to the IPCC RIGHT NOW

[Turkish]

So if the police (on the guys way in) see that he has a machete & can see he's outraged by something, would you expect them to open the door for him, or do something to prevent him using his machete?

By the way - I agree that all of these people need to take personal responsibility for their actions so have no excuses. But the police also have a responsibility.

Dune thinks they should open the door for him, why let machete wielding thugs ruin the day for non machete wielding thugs .....

[Ponty]

Pathetic, both of you.

You've gone beyond the point of reasonable argument here.

[View From The Top]

You'd have to be pretty feeble minded, or Stanley, not to be able to work out why the OB set up the fences, stood around with their video cameras and let everyone out at the same time.

Unfortunately for them they didn't nick any of those they wanted to get because they weren't dumb enough to kick off outside the ground.

Stupid idiots for getting involved but I don't believe they deserved jail time. Those that kicked that Yeovil fan in the head whilst he was out cold did!

[saintjay77]

Or alternatively they could have done away with the drama and expense of a crown court trial and put it through magistates where the maximum is 6 months

Arrest and Punishment
‘Violent disorder’ is triable either way although it will usually be tried on indictment. It carries a maximum sentence of 5 years on indictment or 6 months before magistrates and is therefore an “arrestable offence”. At a trial on indictment, a jury will usually have the alternative option of convicting the defendant of the lesser offence of threatening behaviour (Section 4 of the act).

Or they could have given them a threatening behaviour charge which according to the above a jury usually have the option of. Not quite so dramatic in the media that though is it.

I think your last point would probably have been more sensible but no matter which way it ended up I think there would still be debate about it.

The OB could have gone steaming in with battons and horses to split up the croud which would of no doubt caused a backlash as most fans there would have through it would be unnecisary and the OB's actions would have done nothing but agrivate the situation.

The press probably didnt help matters by dramatising things that bit more which may have left the OB thinking they had to make more of a statement.

But out of all of this the fact remains that the OB charged them as they did and in court when defended by Barristers they still ended up getting what we think are harsh punishments. What were there Barristers there for? Did they not point out that there clients did nothing more than shake a fence or shout angrily? Are they planning an appeal?

Although it looks harsh to us and a charge of threatening behaviour seems more reasonable to most, they cant get away from the fact that had they walked away like most others they wouldnt be in this situation.

[saintjay77]

I was just up the pub, there was police outside, someone walked straight past them and into a pub and chopped some old grannys head off and casually walked back out the pub, stopping to shake a police officers hand on the way.

I don't blame the police for not stopping it, it's not their job after all, I blame the loon with the machete.

Are you suggesting that had one of the saints fans involved was weilding a machette the OB would still have just sat back and filmed it?

[Turkish]

Pathetic, both of you.

You've gone beyond the point of reasonable argument here.

Not really Ponty, in your opinion prehaps, but i know looking at your posts you sit on the 'lock um up and throw away the key' side of the fence. Dunes comments were "why should the thugs dictate when fans leave a stadium? In the safety of the public it was the right course of action - why should normal pompey fans be exposed to feral thugs by being forced to walk through St marys when the bulk of the crowd had dispersed"
When it was suggest the police could have avoid the whole thing by not letting the Pompey fans out. So they COULD have prevented it if they had chose too, just like they chose to prevent the armed robbery in Chandlers Ford. Just because you dont agree with me does not make my views pathetic.

[saintjay77]

You'd have to be pretty feeble minded, or Stanley, not to be able to work out why the OB set up the fences, stood around with their video cameras and let everyone out at the same time.

Unfortunately for them they didn't nick any of those they wanted to get because they weren't dumb enough to kick off outside the ground.

Stupid idiots for getting involved but I don't believe they deserved jail time. Those that kicked that Yeovil fan in the head whilst he was out cold did!


If they wanted to catch a load of muppets having a ruck you would have thought they wouldnt have bothered putting up a fence to seperate them wouldnt you?

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Pathetic, both of you.

You've gone beyond the point of reasonable argument here.

The point is Mr Ponty ( I will call you Mr, because you are a Moderator ) , it is pretty obvious by simply keeping them in, as happens with every single other hostile game in the country, that trouble could have been prevented.

Do you agree or not?

The police where either stupid, or it was a sting ( which also went wrong ).

Which one do you think it was?

[Turkish]

I think your last point would probably have been more sensible but no matter which way it ended up I think there would still be debate about it.

The OB could have gone steaming in with battons and horses to split up the croud which would of no doubt caused a backlash as most fans there would have through it would be unnecisary and the OB's actions would have done nothing but agrivate the situation.

The press probably didnt help matters by dramatising things that bit more which may have left the OB thinking they had to make more of a statement.

But out of all of this the fact remains that the OB charged them as they did and in court when defended by Barristers they still ended up getting what we think are harsh punishments. What were there Barristers there for? Did they not point out that there clients did nothing more than shake a fence or shout angrily? Are they planning an appeal?

Although it looks harsh to us and a charge of threatening behaviour seems more reasonable to most, they cant get away from the fact that had they walked away like most others they wouldnt be in this situation.

If you read View from the Tops comments his BIL works for the FIU and the sentance were predetermined before the trial/guilty pleas, so their barristers were about as useful as trying to out out a bush fire with a tea cup full of water.

IMO i think a few cracks round the nut with a batton might make people think twice, that is what they do in Europe.

[Ponty]

I sit firmly on the "If they were stupid enough to do it front of police with cameras then they deserve what they get" side of the fence. I've not actually voiced an opinion about the length of the sentence, other than to say that it makes sentencing for more serious crime look pathetic by example, and I stand by all of that. What I haven't done is paint a patently ridiculous scenario then try and use it to justify the opinion that the OB are somehow responsible for the whole thing.

[dune]

I get the feeling that Turkish is just crying because the sentences have put a nail in the coffin of the feral yobs that attach themselves to football clubs. If there is less trouble at future derbies because the yobs fear imprisonment then good.

[Ponty]

If you read View from the Tops comments his BIL works for the FIU and the sentance were predetermined before the trial/guilty pleas, so their barristers were about as useful as trying to out out a bush fire with a tea cup full of water.

Except that the OB and CPS can only recommend a sentence, they cannot enforce or predetermine one. That's all on the judge.

[saintjay77]

If you read View from the Tops comments his BIL works for the FIU and the sentance were predetermined before the trial/guilty pleas, so their barristers were about as useful as trying to out out a bush fire with a tea cup full of water.

IMO i think a few cracks round the nut with a batton might make people think twice, that is what they do in Europe.

I might have missed that but I thought View From The Top said that the OB were going for a custodial sentance. Didnt see they had one agreed already. Isnt that illegal in its self? Surly any Barrister worth his salt would be able to get a case thrown out of court if he could prove the OB were acting a Judge and Jury before someone is even proven guilty in the court of law and all that?

[Turkish]

I sit firmly on the "If they were stupid enough to do it front of police with cameras then they deserve what they get" side of the fence. I've not actually voiced an opinion about the length of the sentence, other than to say that it makes sentencing for more serious crime look pathetic by example, and I stand by all of that. What I haven't done is paint a patently ridiculous scenario then try and use it to justify the opinion that the OB are somehow responsible for the whole thing.

I have NEVER said the OB are responsbile, look back through my posts on this subject. What i have said numerous times and i'll say it again now is
1/ The people involved were silly to do so
2/ They deserve to be punished, having been found guilty
3/ Their sentances were way over the top- again using 12 months for shouting aggresively as an stand out example
4/ The whole thing could have been avoided if the police had done what EVERY OTHER police force do and hold away fans in after games. Like they have done themselves to us at Fratton.

I have said this on many many occasions.

[Kingsland Nick]

It seems that what an individual does isn't important, if he is part of a violent group:


Violent disorder

Title: Public order

Offence: Violent disorder

Legislation: Section 2 Public Order Act 1986

Commencement Date:

Mode of Trial: Either Way

Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: 5 years

Specified offence under Section 224 CJA 2003

Sentencing Range:

Aggravating & Mitigating Factors
Busy public place. Large group, people put in fear. Vulnerable victims, weapons, fighting between rival groups. Planning/organisation. Racially/religiously aggravated. Injuries/damage. Violence towards Police. Disguises. Impulsive action. Provocation.

Relevant Sentencing Guidelines (If Any)
None

Relevant Sentencing Case Law

Sentencing guidance in cases of serious disorder:-
R v Chapman (2002) 146 SJ
D took part in street riot over a number of hours. Threw stones at Police and re-armed himself in order to continue.3 years in YOI on G plea. Upheld.

R v Hebron and Spencer 11 Cr. App. R (S) 226
Both under 21 and took part in N.Y. Eve riot.
H threw bottles at Police. S shook fists and shouted "Kill the Bill".
10 and 12 months respectively was an appropriate sentence.
IT IS NOT ONLY THE PRECISE NATUTE OF THE INDIVIDUAL ACTS BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT THE DEFENDANTS HAVE TAKEN PART.

R v Green [1997]2 Cr. App. R.(S) 191
Revenge attack. 3 men attended house of victim plus one. Property damaged. Assaults with baseball bats. 3 and 4 years prison upheld.

R v Watson & others (1990) 12 Cr App R (S) 477
Retaliatory violence. D with others, broke into premises, caused damage. Attacked innocent persons. Good character. 18 months prison.

R v Rees [2006]1 Cr App R (S)
A feature of the offence is that it is not the individual conduct of one offender that is of importance but the nature of the offending as a whole.

Ancillary Orders:

Compensation
Banning orders

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/violent_disorder/

[Thedelldays]

4/ The whole thing could have been avoided if the police had done what EVERY OTHER police force do and hold away fans in after games. Like they have done themselves to us at Fratton.

I have said this on many many occasions.

that is clearly not true

[Turkish]

I get the feeling that Turkish is just crying because the sentences have put a nail in the coffin of the feral yobs that attach themselves to football clubs. If there is less trouble at future derbies because the yobs fear imprisonment then good.

Nothing of the sort Dune. So come on then, did you express your outrage to the boys in blue when you weren't allowed to leave Fratton Park in 2004? Or where you glad they kept you in the ground and cleared the Pomey fans away?

[View From The Top]

Except that the OB and CPS can only recommend a sentence, they cannot enforce or predetermine one. That's all on the judge.

Very true but it's no accident that I posted on the thread, when the Echo first ran the story, what the charges and sentences (if convicted) would be, or would be pressed for, as I'd been told by someone involved in the case.

With the exception of the longer term for the fella with previous I was pretty accurate.

[Turkish]

that is clearly not true

why?

[saintjay77]

I might have missed that but I thought View From The Top said that the OB were going for a custodial sentance. Didnt see they had one agreed already. Isnt that illegal in its self? Surly any Barrister worth his salt would be able to get a case thrown out of court if he could prove the OB were acting a Judge and Jury before someone is even proven guilty in the court of law and all that?

Could it be that the OB went for the charges they did thinking that the judge may reduce the charges to Threatening Behaviour or on appeal the charges may get reduced? Aim high and still get a result if the Judge sides with the defendants a bit?

Just an idea and no idea if they would or could do that.

[View From The Top]

Nothing of the sort Dune. So come on then, did you express your outrage to the boys in blue when you weren't allowed to leave Fratton Park in 2004? Or where you glad they kept you in the ground and cleared the Pomey fans away?

Don't forget Dune is an expert on feral yobs as he goes on National Front marches.

[Gorgiesaint]

I sit firmly on the "If they were stupid enough to do it front of police with cameras then they deserve what they get" side of the fence. I've not actually voiced an opinion about the length of the sentence, other than to say that it makes sentencing for more serious crime look pathetic by example, and I stand by all of that. What I haven't done is paint a patently ridiculous scenario then try and use it to justify the opinion that the OB are somehow responsible for the whole thing.

Ponty, I'm not saying that the OB are responsible for the whole thing but they have some responsibility.

Had it completely kicked off, do you think that if there was another derby the following week then the OB would have made the same decision to release the Pompey fans at the same time? IMO they would make the decision that has been made at every other derby game and hold them back - which is actually what they should have done in the first place. It does not excuse the idiots for causing trouble but the OB have a duty of care to the public. IMO they did not discharge that duty of care properly.