Progressive Rock

[NorthamSteve]

I'm writing a short history of Progressive Rock and metal as part of my Uni work.

If you could spare me a few minutes and give me your views on when it really started. ie; would you consider Sgt Pepper to be the first prog record, of was it the Moody Blues, or even later, possibly Dark Side of the Moon, or something else.

Also, if any of you were there at the time, not necessarily into the tunes but were aware of it, or were you against it as part of the punk movement.

Anything is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Steve

[NorthamSteve]

I wish I could edit the grammar on that post.... bit tired, sorry.

[Hamilton Saint]

I would say that "Prog Rock" emerged as a recognisable genre in the late 60s/early 70s. Popular albums in those early days: In the Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson; The Yes Album by Yes; Emerson, Lake & Palmer's first album. I never thought of The Moody Blues as progressive rock - to me they were a glorified (and rather pretentious) pop band - who put out LPs masquerading as "concept albums". Other notable bands in the early phase: Genesis, Camel, Van Der Graf Generator, Pink Floyd.

Sgt. Pepper is not prog rock but you can see certain elements tending towards that style and approach.

[Baj]

I'm writing a short history of Progressive Rock and metal as part of my Uni work.

If you could spare me a few minutes and give me your views on when it really started. ie; would you consider Sgt Pepper to be the first prog record, of was it the Moody Blues, or even later, possibly Dark Side of the Moon, or something else.

Also, if any of you were there at the time, not necessarily into the tunes but were aware of it, or were you against it as part of the punk movement.

Anything is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Steve

Without looking at the author of this thread, I was about to write ' you should chat to Northam Steve'.... not much help....

[Counterforce]

Try running keywords through JSTOR and Project Muse (which you should have access to?) for up-to-date scholarship. Also, is there a way of checking through back issues of 'The Wire'? They must have published all kinds of 'primers' and quasi-academic stuff on prog over the years. Also, if it's the relationship between prog and *metal* you're focusing on, then that points you in very specific directions (in the sense that prog also crosses over with folk, jazz, avant garde electronica, tribal/traditional musics etc). So thinking along those lines (and outside others) will help to focus it.

Turkish prog and psych from the 70s is *incredible* by the way... But that's another story!

Hope that's of some use...

[NorthamSteve]

Try running keywords through JSTOR and Project Muse (which you should have access to?) for up-to-date scholarship. Also, is there a way of checking through back issues of 'The Wire'? They must have published all kinds of 'primers' and quasi-academic stuff on prog over the years. Also, if it's the relationship between prog and *metal* you're focusing on, then that points you in very specific directions (in the sense that prog also crosses over with folk, jazz, avant garde electronica, tribal/traditional musics etc). So thinking along those lines (and outside others) will help to focus it.

Turkish prog and psych from the 70s is *incredible* by the way... But that's another story!

Hope that's of some use...

What you say all makes sense (and I will check out some Turkish stuff too). What I'm looking for here is some people's opinions, as opposed to press or academia. So, if you have some, chuck them here and I'll kick them about a bit.

Cheers!

[NorthamSteve]

I would say that "Prog Rock" emerged as a recognisable genre in the late 60s/early 70s. Popular albums in those early days: In the Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson; The Yes Album by Yes; Emerson, Lake & Palmer's first album. I never thought of The Moody Blues as progressive rock - to me they were a glorified (and rather pretentious) pop band - who put out LPs masquerading as "concept albums". Other notable bands in the early phase: Genesis, Camel, Van Der Graf Generator, Pink Floyd.

Sgt. Pepper is not prog rock but you can see certain elements tending towards that style and approach.

Camel, Van Der Graf Generator!! You legend! I new there was something I was missing.

[Pugwash]

Then there was Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull (sort of Prog) and The Alan Parsons Project coming late to the scene. Try looking up Roger Dean (Artist) who did a lot of the fantasy album covers - mostly associated with Yes.

[Pugwash]

Once bought a record by Faust - made Kraftwerk sound mainstream. Totally weird. Bought PFM's first album - they were an Italian prog rock band signed to ELP's record label (Manticore) as I was well into ELP. Good album actually.

Yes were a great band, particularly liked by the art college girls. Lots of fun discovering the deep meaning behind Jon Anderson's absurd lyrics. ;)

[Counterforce]

Bought PFM's first album - they were an Italian prog rock band signed to ELP's record label (Manticore) as I was well into ELP. Good album actually.

On an Italian tip, Area are pretty amazing... And their vocalist (Demetrio Stratos) is from a different planet. Big influence on everyone from Mike Patton to Yamatsuka Eye to Diamanda Galas.

Also - Goblin!!! The soundtracks to 'Suspiria' and 'Profondo Rosso' are some of my all-time favourites. And you can really hear the way they've influenced John Zorn, Secret Chiefs 3 etc.

Is Frank Zappa 'prog'?

[Pugwash]

Goblin - good call!

I'll see your Frank Zappa and raise you Captain Beefheart.

[Frank's cousin]

'Is its Prog?' Checklist:

Gatefold sleeve album cover with 'odd' cover art, lyrics in side and rements of the odd splif having been rolled
Capes as part of stage outfits
Keyboards Rock
27 artics needed for the lighting and stage show
Audience all male
Lyrics that could be lifted from Tolkien
Only 1 song on the Album...but many 'movements'
Complex time signatures that change mid way through a track
Wierd chord progressions

[gjphilsaint]

Progressive...the art of developing something beyond that which is the norm. So... when did prog start..? What was the norm.... (at the time), what differentiates it from the other moves from the norm....and ever changing scenario...and then dont forget, for some prog became the norm and then what happened? (Punk probably).
Ok thats my opener..... for me Prog was a bit like supporting the saints...i didnt find Prog, it found me! I listen to a wide range of music, but it was the likes of YES, early Genesis, ELP just struck a chord (excuse the pun) at a tangent..it just turned my head at the right time. Was it the romance of the themes, the classical/jazz influences to rock music that did it? One thing is sure..I was loyal to the Prog cause, but at the same time I knew when it had lost its way, the romance disappeared, some of the classical/jazz influences were replaced with pop orientated ones... Prog was never replaced in my musical tastes, the masters just ran out of steam. However, devotees to Prog (neo-prog?) kept the genre moving on... IQ/Pendragon/Twelfth Night took up the mantle and (in my opinion) did prog better in the 80s than the Masters (Yes/Genesis). And today... Prog has influenced bands like Elbow who certainly slip into some form of niche that has Prog overtones.

There you go theres my set of ramblings.... do with them what you will..but in closing i think you might want to be certain what exactly Prog was Progressing.

I suspect that I have only scratched the surface with my Prog Rock experiences, and I didnt even mention some of the more obscure stuff like Tonto's Expanding Headband, so if anyone wants to enlighten me feel free...

[gjphilsaint]

...and now i am going to have to use my 2nd of 3 posts to add The Enid into the 1980s mix... there... now lets hope that saints dont sign someone mega and i cannot join in on the underwhelming for another 24 hours!

[manji]

For real Prog check the "Prog Is Not A Four Letter Word" CD curated by Andy Votel.

[manji]

Oh yeah.................Magma..............

[miserableoldgit]

Was really into Cream when I was younger with Disraeli Gears being the epitome of Prog-Rock (overlong drum solo`s, tracks lasting for hours etc) and I loved it! Also Blodwyn Pig, Mick Abrahams band after he left Jethro Tull. Gentle Giant (mentioned earlier) evolved out of the Pompey band Simon Dupree and the Big Sound (Kites).

A lot of the prog-rock groups evolved from the blues/R&B boom of the mid to late 60`s and of course the Punk movement of the mid 70`s was a direct "protest" against the bloated thing that prog-rock had become.

[NorthamSteve]

Progressive...the art of developing something beyond that which is the norm. So... when did prog start..? What was the norm.... (at the time), what differentiates it from the other moves from the norm....and ever changing scenario...and then dont forget, for some prog became the norm and then what happened? (Punk probably).
Ok thats my opener..... for me Prog was a bit like supporting the saints...i didnt find Prog, it found me! I listen to a wide range of music, but it was the likes of YES, early Genesis, ELP just struck a chord (excuse the pun) at a tangent..it just turned my head at the right time. Was it the romance of the themes, the classical/jazz influences to rock music that did it? One thing is sure..I was loyal to the Prog cause, but at the same time I knew when it had lost its way, the romance disappeared, some of the classical/jazz influences were replaced with pop orientated ones... Prog was never replaced in my musical tastes, the masters just ran out of steam. However, devotees to Prog (neo-prog?) kept the genre moving on... IQ/Pendragon/Twelfth Night took up the mantle and (in my opinion) did prog better in the 80s than the Masters (Yes/Genesis). And today... Prog has influenced bands like Elbow who certainly slip into some form of niche that has Prog overtones.

There you go theres my set of ramblings.... do with them what you will..but in closing i think you might want to be certain what exactly Prog was Progressing.

I suspect that I have only scratched the surface with my Prog Rock experiences, and I didnt even mention some of the more obscure stuff like Tonto's Expanding Headband, so if anyone wants to enlighten me feel free...

You first line there is almost a carbon copy of what is already in my piece....

[NorthamSteve]

This is all good stuff guys, cheers!

[Ohio Saint]

Soft Machine, Matching Mole, Gong is a fun story to follow. Just love them pot head pixies! :)

[ericofarabia]

Soft Machine, Matching Mole, Gong is a fun story to follow. Just love them pot head pixies! :)

One of the most bizarre gigs I've ever been to was Gong supporting Hawkwind at The Bomo WinterGardens.

You could barely see the stage through the haze of what was most certainly not ordinary cigarette smoke. Some of the band were wearing Traffic Cones with inflatable rubber duck swim ming rings on.

Hawkwinds Light Show with Stacia gyrating around on stage was awesome. An incredible evenings entertainment indeed.

[sussexsaint]

No one has mentioned early Marillion

[richpassivity]

Try running keywords through JSTOR and Project Muse (which you should have access to?) for up-to-date scholarship. Also, is there a way of checking through back issues of 'The Wire'? They must have published all kinds of 'primers' and quasi-academic stuff on prog over the years. Also, if it's the relationship between prog and *metal* you're focusing on, then that points you in very specific directions (in the sense that prog also crosses over with folk, jazz, avant garde electronica, tribal/traditional musics etc). So thinking along those lines (and outside others) will help to focus it.

Turkish prog and psych from the 70s is *incredible* by the way... But that's another story!

Hope that's of some use...

The 'Love, Peace & Poetry - Turkish Psychedelic Music' CD is great!

[richpassivity]

I really like CARAVAN - especially the first 3 albums.

[Frank's cousin]

Rush 2112 - interestingy new album out in June, returns to a 'concept album' - single release ' headlong flight ' on you tube sounds good - if heavy prog is your bag.

[gjphilsaint]

No one has mentioned early Marillion

Yes ! good call there. I saw early marillion at The marquee in 81/2? The days before the record deal, with photo copied sheets of the early band newsletter The WEB being circulated..Grendel & Margaret...and the day I met FISH in a record store in Worcester asking him to sign my poster of the Marillion eye... a good band to fill the gap left by a pop orientated Genesis of the 1980s.

[miserableoldgit]

One of the most bizarre gigs I've ever been to was Gong supporting Hawkwind at The Bomo WinterGardens.

You could barely see the stage through the haze of what was most certainly not ordinary cigarette smoke. Some of the band were wearing Traffic Cones with inflatable rubber duck swim ming rings on.

Hawkwinds Light Show with Stacia gyrating around on stage was awesome. An incredible evenings entertainment indeed.
Went to the Isle of Wight Festival in 1970. When we arrived, the first thing that we went to, after putting our tents up, was a large "blow up" marquee, with an air-lock at the entrance. Inside was a soup kitchen giving away free soup and bread (God knows what was in the soup!) and Hawkwind were in there playing a set, with film being projected on them - at least I think it was! It may have been the result of the "soup"!

[Steeleye Saint]

Anyone remember a radio programme called Sounds Interesting on Radio 3? Early seventies I think. Hosted by a very well spoken man called Derek Jewell. He introduced me to the likes of Wishbone Ash, Gentle Giant and more that slip my mind - he was quite an influence on me at the time.

I used to live in a flat in Reading, and one Christmas Eve I was trying to get to sleep – Christmas Day was going to be full on – and the guy in the flat downstairs was playing heavy rock music quite loudly and I went to ask him to turn it down - I know, bah humbug and all that. Anyway, he did, but the music he was playing stuck in my mind, and I only found out years later what it was and who it was by, and I still play it occasionally and bask in the memory of those days when I was an old man before my time. Xanadu by Rush was the name of the track.

Have you all forgotten about Jimi Hendrix? Any thesis on Prog Rock surely has to include the master doesn't it? Are You Experienced was a real eye, sorry ear opener for me and after that I had to have more of the heavy stuff. Yes and Jethro Tull were among my favourites too.

Mike Oldfield with Tubular Bells too - not sure if it's prog rock but definitely a classic concept album.

[sadoldgit]

I'm writing a short history of Progressive Rock and metal as part of my Uni work. If you could spare me a few minutes and give me your views on when it really started. ie; would you consider Sgt Pepper to be the first prog record, of was it the Moody Blues, or even later, possibly Dark Side of the Moon, or something else.Also, if any of you were there at the time, not necessarily into the tunes but were aware of it, or were you against it as part of the punk movement.Anything is much appreciated. Cheers, SteveOur first true Progressive band was probably The Nice. They certainly influenced the early Yes and married rock, jazz and classical music with various levels of success from about 1967. Band like The Nice and Jethro Tull were know as Underground in those days - the name for "alternative" music at the time. Releasing singles was seen as selling out and it was mostly about the albums. The Nice/King Crimson morphed into ELP, Yes brought in Steve Howe, the Gabriel era Genesis found their feet and the goldern years of Prog Rock were born - probably between 1970 and 1974. Punk was actually quite small. It was more New Wave that came through in the late 70s and made the real difference - although the Dinosaur bands they were suppoed to kill off were making even more money doing stadium tours. Genesis were more commercially successful post 1977.Check out Keith Emerson, Jon Anderson, Steve Howe, Chris Squire, Greg Lake, Ian Anderson, Robert Fripp, Rick Wakeman, Dave Greenslade. Prog rock was singually very English, although others followed, the pure type of Prog Rock came from the English middle class. The birthing poing was prbably Sgt Pepper and The Moody Blues' Days Of Future Past.Prog at its best? Fine examples are ELPs Pictures At An Exhibition, Tarkus, Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery. In The Court Of The Crimson King by King Crimson. The Yes Album, Fragile and Close To The Edge by Yes. Thick As A Brick by Jethro Tull. For the early stuff anything by The Nice will give you the heads up.I went to see Carl Palmer's band the other week and for a guy in his 60s he is still an incredible drummer. He is still gigging so once again the notion that Punk did away with fine musicianship is nonsense.Going back to the New Wave. The Stranglers ripped off The Doors and The Jam ripped off The Small Faces, The Who, The Kinks and The Beatles so the only New thing about them was the bands rather than the music. Oh and for the guy who mentioned Marillion, they total ripped off early Genesis and Gabriel.Never real thought of Pink Floyd as Progressive. They were a psychadelic band who changed massively when Syd freaked out and left.

[sadoldgit]

Should have added Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England By The Pound and The Lambs Lies Down On Broadway by Genesis as classic Prog albums.

[Crazy Diamond]

I interviewed Rick Wakeman a year or two ago. Try getting in touch with him via his website, he's a great guy and always happy to talk.

[sfcsfcsfc]

that's taken me back, Gong from the planet Gong with flying teapots and pixies

[pressingon]

I've never understood the view that Sgt Pepper was a prog record. IMHO it's a collection of vaudeville/music hall ditties-"Sgt Pepper" and "Mr Kite", nursery rhyme sing-along’s "Help for my Friends", "Lovely Rita", "When I'm 64" the typical Beatles pop songs "Getting Better", "Fixing a Hole" and "Good Morning" Harrison made much better Eastern/Sitar music than "Within You". The nonsensical drug fuelled "Lucy in the Sky" The standout tracks are the beautiful "She's leaving Home" and a groundbreaking "A Day in a Life". All in all a good pop album elevated to cult status thanks to the magic of George Martin and a multitude of sound effects.
Don't get me wrong I'm a Beatles fan who was lucky enough to see them live twice, bought all their albums as released and still enjoy their music today. Masters of the pop single-absolutely, prog rock-never.

[pressingon]

What you say all makes sense (and I will check out some Turkish stuff too).Cheers!

I came on this thread to try and get away from Turkish!!

[pressingon]

[QUOTE=miserableoldgit;1366369]Was really into Cream when I was younger with Disraeli Gears being the epitome of Prog-Rock (overlong drum solo`s, tracks lasting for hours etc)QUOTE]

I would have said Disraeli Gears was a blues based rock album. The drum solo's of the day were perfect for a trip to the loo then the bar and still time to roll a fat one! (same for the rest of the band I expect)
Sidenote-saw Cream in Soton 1967? one of the worst gigs I've ever attended.