Malaysia Airlines plane missing

you should be fine

 

Just hope the Royal Navy or the US Navy patrolling the Atlantic do NOT press the red button by accident

maybe, there shouldnt be

the area that this one was shot down has had aircraft shot down recently.

 

not something I would be comfortable flying over. If you would be, fantastic

 

 

if it does come out that russia are somewhat invovlved, then what? a strongly worded statement and a few sanctions imposed?

someone lower down goes to prison??

Current flight routing out of here is up over the centre of the Gulf, up the centre of Iraq, across Turkey just south of Lake Van then cross close to Istanbul or sometimes Bucharest, then over Lake Balaton in Hungary & into Germany. That routing is about an hour shorter than the pre-Iraq invasion route of along the border of Kuwait/Saudi, into Jordan then Syria and out over Beirut & Cyprus before skirting the Balkans. Think I have only once ever had a routing that took us further north and across Berlin

Trust me it feels a lot safer flying over ISIS controlled territory than it ever did being so close to the maniacs in Israel & the old Balkan conflict. Heading further East to Indo-China from Northern Europe then flights will have always crossed close some conflict zone, Georgia, Chechnya, Balkans etc.

Very sad, one of the Brits on the plane was in my Hall at uni. Hope whoever did this gets their just desserts...

As if the shooting down and loss of so many innocent lives isn't enough, I am repulsed and sickened reading, when the first investigators were allowed access, all the bodies have been found stripped of all money, wallets and credit cards.

On the subject of flying over dodgy areas, back in 2008 I recall flying over Afghanistan going to and from Singapore, and worrying about an incident like Ukraine happening. I'm assuming that the terrorists there wouldn't have access to those sort of weapons would they? A fully loaded A380 would make for an ideal target I'm sure.

That is bloody evil if the ****s strip the bodies if cash etc

That us totally sickening . And Putin supports them

I heard the tape earlier between a commander and some terrorist on the ground . One if the main concerns was whether the py found any weapons .

I'm not sure if that recording us genuine or nit but I hope they can arrest the individuals featured in that recording and deal with them accordingly .

I doubt we will ever know what happened, at least with the evidence required.

The crash area has been compromised, it was ages before it was cordoned off (journalists broadcasting live from quite literally on top of the debris included) and the rebels were there first and are making sure people only see what they deem acceptable, as it can be seen by the troubles the first investigation teams have had in reaching the area. I'm sure the black boxes have probably been stolen as well as any possible evidence of a missile. They are probably still messing around with it as we speak.

I know that it is common around the world, but I can't understand why the hell are planes allowed to fly over extremely active war zones. I know commercial flights now fly over Iraq and Afghanistan, but they didn't when the wars there first broke out and it took a good while before air routes were opened and I'm sure the resident pilots can confirm the immense restrictions that exist in such places (I found an old edition of the Airliner World magazine in my basement with a report on the reopening of the central Iraq air route). Less than a year in, I'd imagine IATA, ICAO and all the air travel institutions would've made sure that no traffic would cross that Eastern Ukraine area. Did they just think it was a minor thing a la Georgia?

A final word to the media in the place. So fast to take pictures of bodies and on top of wings and ashes, and tweet it to everyone, yet no one thought about cordoning the area off with whatever they could find. Not much they could do if they had guns pointed at them, but yet there were no efforts to try to isolate the area until today. Speaks volumes of the press of today IMO.

This image shows the recent flight paths of MH17 .

Compiled by Vagelis Karmiros using data from Flightaware

maybe, there shouldnt be

the area that this one was shot down has had aircraft shot down recently.

 

not something I would be comfortable flying over. If you would be, fantastic

 

 

if it does come out that russia are somewhat invovlved, then what? a strongly worded statement and a few sanctions imposed?

someone lower down goes to prison??

But perhaps the Islamic rebels don't have the advanced weaponry that will unfalteringly fall into the wrong hands when ex Soviet states are torn apart from within.

You only have to know a small amount about central Africa right now to know that if the Libyans had anything really useful weapon wise it would now be being use in the CAR and Mali.

So why oh why are the BBC and no doubt other uk tv news stations continuing to report that it was an accident

I don't here Obama or that calling it an accident

It was an act of terrorism

So now You can almost hear the human rights defence lawyers put forward a defence of . This was an accident my lord . My client didn't intend to kill any one when they placed a car bomb outside a busy shopping centre .

So why oh why are the BBC and no doubt other uk tv news stations continuing to report that it was an accident

 

I don't here Obama or that calling it an accident

It was an act of terrorism

 

So now You can almost hear the human rights defence lawyers put forward a defence of . This was an accident my lord . My client didn't intend to kill any one when they placed a car bomb outside a busy shopping centre .

perhaps it was an accidental act of terrorism or bavure as the French term it. This will be another Syrian Chemical Arms jobby, everyone blames everyone else and all real physical proof will be destroyed leaving just the NSA's no doubt illegal evesdropping as all the "proof" that remains. They listen in and watch everywhere, when it suits people it's scandalous,when it tends to indicate that some unpopular person or cause has been up to no good it's the bee's balls. Trouble with the NSA or their offshoots is that what's published is so selective, it has to support the US cause or stance, no doubt they know what hapened to that other MH flight as well, but on that they're keeping schtuuum.

So why oh why are the BBC and no doubt other uk tv news stations continuing to report that it was an accident

 

I don't here Obama or that calling it an accident

It was an act of terrorism

 

So now You can almost hear the human rights defence lawyers put forward a defence of . This was an accident my lord . My client didn't intend to kill any one when they placed a car bomb outside a busy shopping centre .

If the rebels were responsible, and it looks increasingly likely, then the chatter from their ranks indicates they thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military asset.

It's a war zone. If you can think of an environment where accidents are MORE likely to happen, I'd be very interested.

This image shows the recent flight paths of MH17 .

 

 

Compiled by Vagelis Karmiros using data from Flightaware

That's pretty odd. Thoughts Pap?

In 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in Iranian airspace.All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died. The yanks have never apologised.

Probably itchy fingered Captain or just a horrible **** up.

MH17 could have shot down by Russian seperatists , Ukranian Air Force or even an US controlled false flag attack. Unless it was a false flag (which wouldnt surprise me) it was probably a horrible mistake. Anyone one with any knowledge of the history of war knows these incidents happen all the time. The worst thing is the way the

way the mainstream media is spinning it to suit thier agenda.

That's pretty odd. Thoughts Pap?

It does appear as if this plane specifically flew into harm's way, doesn't it?

I wonder why it deviated so much.

In 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in Iranian airspace.All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died. The yanks have never apologised.

Probably itchy fingered Captain or just a horrible **** up.

MH17 could have shot down by Russian seperatists , Ukranian Air Force or even an US controlled false flag attack. Unless it was a false flag (which wouldnt surprise me) it was probably a horrible mistake. Anyone one with any knowledge of the history of war knows these incidents happen all the time. The worst thing is the way the

way the mainstream media is spinning it to suit thier agenda.

Gleiwitz, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, false accusations of Kuwaiti babies being turfed out of incubators by Iraqis, 9/11.

Before anyone starts, I don't think the Americans did Pearl Harbor to themselves. I do think that Roosevelt made it a very attractive target, and knew that such an outrage was the only way an isolationist America was going to get involved in another war.

It does appear as if this plane specifically flew into harm's way, doesn't it?

 

I wonder why it deviated so much.

To take top spot in the news just as Israel push into Gaza

To take top spot in the news just as Israel push into Gaza

Now now, you'll be suggesting it's really MH370 filled with crash test dummies or other expendable folk any time now.

...

To take top spot in the news just as Israel push into Gaza

I am waiting for the USA to instigate a no flight zone over Israel and start surgical strikes on Israeli air bases to protect Gaza.

In 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in Iranian airspace.All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died. The yanks have never apologised.

Probably itchy fingered Captain or just a horrible **** up.

MH17 could have shot down by Russian seperatists , Ukranian Air Force or even an US controlled false flag attack. Unless it was a false flag (which wouldnt surprise me) it was probably a horrible mistake. Anyone one with any knowledge of the history of war knows these incidents happen all the time. The worst thing is the way the

way the mainstream media is spinning it to suit thier agenda.

I was serving in the Gulf at the time and whilst plenty of things are still covered by the OSA it's fair to say that it could have so very easily being avoided if it had been anyone but the septics.

That's pretty odd. Thoughts Pap?

What's odd, that the Russian-backed propaganda machine is in overdrive, or that you fell for it?

What's odd, that the Russian-backed propaganda machine is in overdrive, or that you fell for it?

For the sake of argument, let's assume the most cynical position and assume that all governments are legalised protection rackets.

Which crime syndicate's marketing do you like best?

That's pretty odd. Thoughts Pap?

Not sure there is anything odd about that, there is plenty of variations in the flight paths. I think it shows quite clearly why the flight might have made itself more of a target.

What's odd, that the Russian-backed propaganda machine is in overdrive, or that you fell for it?

Or the notion that propaganda only exists on one side of any conflict?

What's odd, that the Russian-backed propaganda machine is in overdrive, or that you fell for it?

Yes the Russian propaganda machine. It permiates every corner of our society. We are deluged with Russian films, TV programmes,fashion, sport, newspapers, magazines. They even have military bases over here. Oh hang on.........................

Or the notion that propaganda only exists on one side of any conflict?

Are you seriously suggesting that the Russian Government explanation is equally as credible as the US and British Government explanations?

If you are, ask yourself why the flight and voice recorders from an American built aircraft registered in Malaysia on a flight from Netherlands to Malaysia that "crashed" in Ukraine were stolen from the site and taken to Russia for "examination"?

If it looks like a guilty duck, walks like a guilty duck and quacks like a guilty duck, it's probably not a swan.

This image shows the recent flight paths of MH17 .

 

 

Compiled by Vagelis Karmiros using data from Flightaware

Routes vary from day to day depending in the favourability of the winds at cruise altitude. Particularly on long haul routes where it can make a big difference over a 12 hour flight. Another reason could be thunderstorm avoidance. Take it from me, those f**king things are everywhere in Europe. If you come across a particularly nasty squall line you could go 100 miles off course avoiding it.

Has that map actually been verified by anyone official? It could be completely made up.

If the Russians, even for a single millisecond, thought that the Ukrainians had done it, they'd have been gleefully allowing investigators unhindered access and the black boxes would have been opened and examined in Farnborough by now.

They fact that they haven't tells you all you need to know.

Just in and seen the news seems the pro Russian militia at the site have been trying to destroy evidence and Osceola monitors have had their movements restricted . Also now being reported that bodies have been move and the Dutch gov are very angry over this .

Pap

factories , train crashes , coach crashes ferries and costa Concordia to name but a few environments where accidents do occur .

Pap

Are you subscribed to this ?

Didn't take long for the conspiracy brigade to kick in

http://wp.me/p1LY0z-2mF

That map is not so weird when you consider that another flight out of the 10 deviated by exactly the same distance to the South of the main path...

To see if it is that different, and to avoid the angry speculation of anti-Western Westerners in this forum, we need someone to find each airline flying Europe-Kuala Lumpur and their last 10 flight paths over the area.

Pap

 

Are you subscribed to this ?

 

Didn't take long for the conspiracy brigade to kick in

 

http://wp.me/p1LY0z-2mF

How do you see that as a conspiracy brigade publication? It is quite sensibly and rationally pointing out questions that need answering.

FWIW I don't believe any government any more.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Russian Government explanation is equally as credible as the US and British Government explanations?

Nope,

I'm saying it's like all propaganda during wars. Both sides will tell their version of events and the truth will be somewhere in the middle. No matter who reports it, news is not reality. It is an agenda-driven artificial construction designed to represent reality.

In this case a key cultural difference between the English and the Russians is that the Russians don't really do subtlety. They'll be more upfront and direct about what they twist and invent regarding the recent events but what about our press?

Let's look at what's been the news headline on the BBC website all day, the text that millions will glance at and perceive as fact -

Ukraine rebels 'destroy MH17 clues'

That's not a fact, it's an allegation presented as a fact. Subtle and very clever. Do you think the BBC will have a headline like "Ukraine 'must bear responsibility for MH17 disaster' reporting what Putin's been claiming? No, because the BBC like all media outlets is agenda driven, and I've come across far too much rubbish printed in local and national media to believe that everything is always one side's fault in a conflict.

When ourselves and the U.S. were propping up Saddam's regime in the 1980s and Saddam brutally murdered thousands of his own people with VX/Sarin gas, I'll never forget the U.S. categorically stating Iran had done it, when they knew full well it was Saddam.

Ask yourself why the flight and voice recorders from an American built aircraft registered in Malaysia on a flight from Netherlands to Malaysia that "crashed" in Ukraine were stolen from the site and taken to Russia for "examination"?

Out of genuine interest, has anyone (other than the Ukrainian government) said or confirmed the black boxes have been sent to Moscow?

If the Russians, even for a single millisecond, thought that the Ukrainians had done it, they'd have been gleefully allowing investigators unhindered access and the black boxes would have been opened and examined in Farnborough by now.

 

They fact that they haven't tells you all you need to know.

LOL the Russians are the finest chess players in the world my friend. Even if they had concrete proof the Ukrainian army had shot it down, who would believe them?

Besides it was almost certainly Ukrainians who done it. The 10 or so forces that make up the pro-Russian militants are Ukrainian (some of them army and police defectors). They aren't Russian, just because Russia supports them and sells them arms.

Also I don't think there's many people on either side that will have Farnborough as the first choice destination for black boxes in that part of the world.

How do you see that as a conspiracy brigade publication? It is quite sensibly and rationally pointing out questions that need answering.

 

FWIW I don't believe any government any more.

Exactly!

Pap

 

Are you subscribed to this ?

 

Didn't take long for the conspiracy brigade to kick in

 

http://wp.me/p1LY0z-2mF

Er, no - but I didn't need to be. Little that we've seen is concrete yet; all circumstantial. Suddenly flying over a war zone when so many previous iterations of the same flight had avoided it is a little puzzling. Depends who is directing the aircraft, but the Ukrainians as instigators is an obvious line of investigation.

The whole situation in Ukraine is fúcked. Here's a rundown of recent events, if you haven't been paying attention. Ukraine had competing deals on the table from East and West. The Russian deal was an energy subsidy and a multi-billion dollar loan with no strings on how that money should be invested in the country. The West's counter-offer was the usual stuff; the swirling tendrils of the IMF or some other Western controlled bank and eventual membership of the EU. The democratically elected President of Ukraine went for the Russian deal.

It was never closed, because he was unconstitutionally removed by members of his own party. They held a vote and secured a majority, but didn't get the required threshold to remove their President from office. With the help of the far right and the West, they removed him anyway. That is legal in the West's eyes.

The referendum in Crimea to return the province to Russia's sphere of influence, which was a popular vote and massively in favour of cutting ties with Ukraine, wasn't legal - despite having more apparent legitimacy in reflecting the will of the people.

The West has stirred this up (see Victoria Nuland, etc) and in my view, as has happened so often recently, we're making both the wrong friends and the wrong enemies. The Ukrainian Far Right? Do me a fúcking favour. Is that really who we're cosying up to these days? This of course, follows the suggestion that we buddy up with our Al Qaeda ally rebel fighters in Syria against the hated Assad.

How do you see that as a conspiracy brigade publication? It is quite sensibly and rationally pointing out questions that need answering.

The term "conspiracy theory" is weaponised language, primed after the JFK assassination and regurgitated ever since. Boiled down, it means "don't take it seriously, kids". That's why anything important is labelled as such.

Needless to say, I don't take it seriously

FWIW I don't believe any government any more.

Why should you?

No need for black boxes. The Americans have satellites permanently monitoring that region and know exactly what happened.

Russia has a lot to answer for, the situation in Ukraine is completely their doing.

If there was any doubt as to who was responsible for this tragedy it has disappeared after Russia's rather timid reaction. They know they have f*cked up because the rest of the world just cannot ignore the situation and do nothing whilst passenger jets are being blown out of the sky.

Nope,

 

I'm saying it's like all propaganda during wars. Both sides will tell their version of events and the truth will be somewhere in the middle. No matter who reports it, news is not reality. It is an agenda-driven artificial construction designed to represent reality.

 

In this case a key cultural difference between the English and the Russians is that the Russians don't really do subtlety. They'll be more upfront and direct about what they twist and invent regarding the recent events but what about our press?

 

Let's look at what's been the news headline on the BBC website all day, the text that millions will glance at and perceive as fact -

 

Ukraine rebels 'destroy MH17 clues'

 

That's not a fact, it's an allegation presented as a fact. Subtle and very clever. Do you think the BBC will have a headline like "Ukraine 'must bear responsibility for MH17 disaster' reporting what Putin's been claiming? No, because the BBC like all media outlets is agenda driven, and I've come across far too much rubbish printed in local and national media to believe that everything is always one side's fault in a conflict.

 

When ourselves and the U.S. were propping up Saddam's regime in the 1980s and Saddam brutally murdered thousands of his own people with VX/Sarin gas, I'll never forget the U.S. categorically stating Iran had done it, when they knew full well it was Saddam.

 

 

 

Out of genuine interest, has anyone (other than the Ukrainian government) said or confirmed the black boxes have been sent to Moscow?

 

 

 

 

LOL the Russians are the finest chess players in the world my friend. Even if they had concrete proof the Ukrainian army had shot it down, who would believe them?

 

Besides it was almost certainly Ukrainians who done it. The 10 or so forces that make up the pro-Russian militants are Ukrainian (some of them army and police defectors). They aren't Russian, just because Russia supports them and sells them arms.

 

Also I don't think there's many people on either side that will have Farnborough as the first choice destination for black boxes in that part of the world.

I thought it was reported that the rebel leader, who tweeted that they'd shot down a plane and then deleted it, was Russian born.

What's odd, that the Russian-backed propaganda machine is in overdrive, or that you fell for it?

I just don't know what to think anymore man its all so confusing. Maybe you can tell me what to think?

Russia has a lot to answer for, the situation in Ukraine is completely their doing.

 

If there was any doubt as to who was responsible for this tragedy it has disappeared after Russia's rather timid reaction. They know they have f*cked up because the rest of the world just cannot ignore the situation and do nothing whilst passenger jets are being blown out of the sky.

How have you come to these conclusions?

The situation in Ukraine is as chaotic as it is precisely because so many agents are involved. We've seen the grim spectacle of the far right rescuing democracy in Ukraine, the US have been caught on tape discussing their plans for a new regime, and is part of wider battles, such as the Eurasian Union vs the European Union, or the EU versus the US (Fúck the EU, they said ). On the ground, things are just as, if not murkier.

How is Russia responsible for everything here?

How have you come to these conclusions?

 

The situation in Ukraine is as chaotic as it precisely because so many agents are involved. We've seen the grim spectacle of the far right rescuing democracy in Ukraine, the US have been caught on tape discussing their plans for a new regime, and is part of wider battles, such as the Eurasian Union vs the European Union, or the EU versus the US (Fúck the EU, they said ). On the ground, things are just as, if not murkier.

 

How is Russia responsible for everything here?

Looks to me like most the people of the Ukraine want to be part of the EU and Russia can't handle that fact so are trying to grab what they can (like they did). Backing the rebels in the east is part of that and this tragedy is a direct result.

Looks to me like most the people of the Ukraine want to be part of the EU and Russia can't handle that fact so are trying to grab what they can (like they did). Backing the rebels in the east is part of that and this tragedy is a direct result.

Have you been watching Red Dawn on repeat?

BTF

I only copied that from a saints fan on Facebook and ask pap on his views

As or the black boxes would they have recorded anything if out of the blue if the plane have been hit by a missile ?

Has it been confirmed the black recording boxes have disappeared from the scene .

Where is derry and co . Re what would they actually record

I just don't know what to think anymore man its all so confusing. Maybe you can tell me what to think?

No, but I can suggest that you should. Think, I mean, rather than just take everything you see and read at face value.

You posted that a map/chart posted on the internet was "odd". You said it was odd.

Are you a pilot? Are you an air traffic controller? Do you have hands-on knowledge if international long-haul flight planning?

My suggestion, unless the answer to any of the above is yes, is that you actually have no idea whether it was odd or not.

p.s. If you are a pilot, a controller or work for BA long haul flight planning, then please accept my apologies.

p.p.s. The Russians do have form. Those of us old enough will remember that they tried to convince us all that the Korean jumbo jet they shot down in 1983 killing 269 was deliberately re-routed to spy on them.

No, but I can suggest that you should. Think, I mean, rather than just take everything you see and read at face value.

May I ask sir how he has arrived at such certainty himself?

Which claim was it that put you over the edge? The immediate rush to blame rebels, the photograph of a "rebel" Buk missile launcher or the reports that rebels have been pilfering from the dead?

The last one worked very well in deflecting blame at Hillsborough, y'see.

No, but I can suggest that you should. Think, I mean, rather than just take everything you see and read at face value.

 

You posted that a map/chart posted on the internet was "odd". You said it was odd.

 

Are you a pilot? Are you an air traffic controller? Do you have hands-on knowledge if international long-haul flight planning?

 

My suggestion, unless the answer to any of the above is yes, is that you actually have no idea whether it was odd or not.

 

 

p.s. If you are a pilot, a controller or work for BA long haul flight planning, then please accept my apologies.

p.p.s. The Russians do have form. Those of us old enough will remember that they tried to convince us all that the Korean jumbo jet they shot down in 1983 killing 269 was deliberately re-routed to spy on them.

My 10% troll-side is smirking that you bothered to write so much.

There are loads of places for trolling on SWF. A thread about the murder of 298 innocent people isn't one of them

There are loads of places for trolling on SWF. A thread about the murder of 298 innocent people isn't one of them

Think you might be hearing trip trapping when none exists.

As far as I can make out, Jonnyboy hasn't been trolling you. If anything, it's the other way around. You've set your stall out pretty comprehensively. You require someone to be a pilot, air traffic controller or a specialist in long haul flight to have an opinion on what looks like a deviation (from every other recent flight) into a war zone.

You're absolutely certain that it's Russian-backed and that it was murder (therefore intentional), based on what, we don't know - because you haven't said.

In a sense though, doesn't really matter what we think. Decisions are going to be made at the national leader level. How many of them do you think will put their people on the line against Russia based on everything that has made you so certain?

The term "conspiracy theory" is weaponised language, primed after the JFK assassination and regurgitated ever since. Boiled down, it means "don't take it seriously, kids". That's why anything important is labelled as such.

 

Needless to say, I don't take it seriously

That's good to know. Of course, the term 'weaponised language' is also weaponised language. Boiled down it means: "It's a conspiracy kids!"