LIVE DEBATE: The EU - in or out - Clegg vs Farage

36% reported Clegg won, I am one of those 36% and that is an impressive score for an establishment figure. Crucially Clegg won in Labour supporters. Also, the poll gave extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters. I guess we will see come the General Election whether they get such levels or not.

This is all just bloody nonsense. The politicians don't want the referendum because the people may well give the answer they don't want. Whatever the arguments it is time for the people to be given the chance to make the decision. After all nobody under 55 has ever voted on it and for those that have, the common market is something entirely different to what we have now. Clegg has been banging on about a vote if there is substantial change. He is ignoring the fact that nobody ever endorsed what we have now never mind the future. Time for the referendum.

This is all just bloody nonsense. The politicians don't want the referendum because the people may well give the answer they don't want. Whatever the arguments it is time for the people to be given the chance to make the decision. After all nobody under 55 has ever voted on it and for those that have, the common market is something entirely different to what we have now. Clegg has been banging on about a vote if there is substantial change. He is ignoring the fact that nobody ever endorsed what we have now never mind the future. Time for the referendum.

It was endorsed by our elected parliament or is our elected representives votes not count anymore.

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It was endorsed by our elected parliament or is our elected representives votes not count anymore.

It was endorsed by our elected parliament or is our elected representives votes not count anymore.

 

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What breathtaking naivety!

It was a part of a basket of policies contained in the parties' manifestos so you conclude that because a particular party received a higher percentage of votes than another, then that party had the policy on a single issue that the electorate wanted?

The European elections are concentrated solely on the issues of Europe, so that if a party has the main policy of wishing to leave the EU, or at least to renogiate the terms of our membership so that it is solely a trading arrangement as it it was originally, then the votes for that party would have sinificance. In a General Election that is not the case and it is foolish to pretend that it is.

What breathtaking naivety!

 

It was a part of a basket of policies contained in the parties' manifestos so you conclude that because a particular party received a higher percentage of votes than another, then that party had the policy on a single issue that the electorate wanted?

 

The European elections are concentrated solely on the issues of Europe, so that if a party has the main policy of wishing to leave the EU, or at least to renogiate the terms of our membership so that it is solely a trading arrangement as it it was originally, then the votes for that party would have sinificance. In a General Election that is not the case and it is foolish to pretend that it is.

what nonsense most of the treaty changes have gone threw parliment ie The Maastricht Treaty and lisbon treaty being the major ones so it has had a democratic mandate even if you don,t agree with the process. if people really want us out of the eu i suggest they vote ukip in parliamentary elections so they can enough mps to do that has clearly none of the major partys will do it .

Do you seriously believe that the general public would have endorsed the Maastricht treaty had they been given a referendum on it? ffs, Major had enough trouble getting it past his own party. Electing a party to government should not mean that you give them carte blanche to do anything they feel like for the next 5 years.

Incidentally, if Blair had had his way, we'd be in the eurozone now. Not for any practical economic reason, but because tony wanted to sit at the big table with all the other credible european leaders like berlusconi and francois hollande. The fact that we avoided that fate is one of two things I thank Gordon Brown for, the other being his rearguard (but ultimately unsuccessful) opposition to the debacle of the iraq invasion.

Do you seriously believe that the general public would have endorsed the Maastricht treaty had they been given a referendum on it? ffs, Major had enough trouble getting it past his own party. Electing a party to government should not mean that you give them carte blanche to do anything they feel like for the next 5 years.

 

Incidentally, if Blair had had his way, we'd be in the eurozone now. Not for any practical economic reason, but because tony wanted to sit at the big table with all the other credible european leaders like berlusconi and francois hollande. The fact that we avoided that fate is one of two things I thank Gordon Brown for, the other being his rearguard (but ultimately unsuccessful) opposition to the debacle of the iraq invasion.

The establishment portrayed Bill Cash and other Maastricht rebels as loons and nutters, but they were right and chmps like Hestletine and Clarke wrong.

Starting with grocer Heath all Tory leaders have abandoned the British peoples rights and played fast and loose with our sovereignty. Even Thatch said one thing in public but in reality did another. The great shame is that labour did an about turn and instaed of sticking up for British workers went native and are now nearly as loony as the lib/dumbs when it comes to Europe.

what nonsense most of the treaty changes have gone threw parliment ie The Maastricht Treaty and lisbon treaty being the major ones so it has had a democratic mandate even if you don,t agree with the process. if people really want us out of the eu i suggest they vote ukip in parliamentary elections so they can enough mps to do that has clearly none of the major partys will do it .

I reiterate, what breathtaking naivety to believe that the government had a mandate to accept those massive changes to the original Treaty of Rome and the resultant loss of sovereignty and to assume that they could get away with it without giving the electorate a chance to vote on it in a referendum.

And I shall certainly be availing myself of the opportunity of voting UKIP in the European elections to express my displeasure at their arrogance. I reserve my vote in Parliamentary elections for the broad tranche of policies that affect the governance of the nation over the 5 year period, not the narrower issues that appertain just to Europe.

Arrogance is right. Two things I hope Nigel brings up on weds ; the way people are forced to vote again after a defeat and the fact that the EU is so corrupt its aduditors haven't signed off its accounts for 20 odd years.

Trouble is ukip will do well in the euro elections but then those so called same voters will drift back to there own favoured party in a general election so much for principles.and those who keep on a referendum I will remind you we are a parliamentary democracy first and for most.

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Arrogance is right. Two things I hope Nigel brings up on weds ; the way people are forced to vote again after a defeat and the fact that the EU is so corrupt its aduditors haven't signed off its accounts for 20 odd years.

Two excellent points. If we were offered a trading agreement with the EU, I would 100% vote out in a referendum. I hate the fact that time and again our elected representatives are hamstrung by EU legislation.

Having said that, it's not all bad. The Social Chapter at least offered protection to workers that we didn't have before. If the Tories had their way, workers wouldn't have any protection at all.

Trouble is ukip will do well in the euro elections but then those so called same voters will drift back to there own favoured party in a general election so much for principles.and those who keep on a referendum I will remind you we are a parliamentary democracy first and for most.

 

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First and foremost Solent mp's are elected to represent their constituents, 72% of the population want the vote so democracy is being denied regardless of whether you are pro or anti European, you can not be anti democratic surely?

The odd thing about Farage is that he bangs on about EU waste and lack of accountability - yet he had one of the worst attendance and voting records of any MEP

The odd thing about Farage is that he bangs on about EU waste and lack of accountability - yet he had one of the worst attendance and voting records of any MEP

What does that mean?

The odd thing about Farage is that he bangs on about EU waste and lack of accountability - yet he had one of the worst attendance and voting records of any MEP

Its better than cleggs at Westminster.

Being pro-Europe I'd obvious vote to stay in but we should have a referendum regardless.

Clegg is getting hammered so hard I actually feel sorry for the Liberal elitist bellend.

Farage is wiping the floor with him.

Boring and predictable so I'm watching Chelsea

Farage is wiping the floor with him.

That he did.

Clegg just resorted to stupid gags and pointless comparisons. He didn't make a mature case for remaining in Europe. Totally blew it.

That he did.

 

Clegg just resorted to stupid gags and pointless comparisons. He didn't make a mature case for remaining in Europe. Totally blew it.

Yep. I'm only persuaded when people make a persuasive argument. Simply attacking farage does nothing to change my mind. Farage destroyed him.

27 percent think clegg won. Says it all.

I lost count of the amount of times Clegg resorted to slating Farage and UKIP instead of dealing with the question. They were supposed to be debating the EU, what the hell has Farage's opinion on Putin got to do with anything?

Not a fan of UKIP at all but less of a fan of Lib Dems.

Just watching Kay on Sky asking that Lib Dem guy what he thought about losing 70% to 30% and he just kept saying we were successful and Clegg got his points across. Kay say's "But you lost?" and he replied "well we didn't".....

Which just shows how thick Lib Dems are and unwilling to accept they could actually be wrong...

Tim Fallon on LBC right now saying Clegg won both debates, essentially by insisting black was white.

EDIT: You Gov Poll

68% Farage

27% Clegg

One in three Lib Dems thought Farage won

Thought it was crap debate turned into a shouting match so turned over to watch PSG v Chelsea which was more exciting to be honest.

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Nigel nailed him.

As I said earlier in the thread, the more people see clegg the less they like him. Love all the lib/dumbs trying to spin.

Clegg did not answer many questions, attacked Nigel instead of sticking up for what he believed in.

Nigel has had the whole establishment throwing shiete at him all week and he creamed it. Love it.

" The people's army"

Nigel is currently the only political leader who is listening to the man on the street and who stands up for what the British people want. That's why he is doing so well.

Nigel is currently the only political leader who is listening to the man on the street and who stands up for what the British people want. That's why he is doing so well.

I'd be very interested to read about his policies for health, education, social services, police, armed forces etc etc etc

He's a one trick pony

I'd be very interested to read about his policies for health, education, social services, police, armed forces etc etc etc

 

He's a one trick pony

I saw a quote on Twitter from him earlier - "I don't have a foreign policy". Speaks volumes.

I can see support for UKIP growing and growing to be honest. Many of the issues people face everyday such as downward pressure on wages, lack of housing, difficulty in getting your kid into your chosen school, pressure on services and youth unemployment make the open door immigration policy seem barmy.

I can see support for UKIP growing and growing to be honest. Many of the issues people face everyday such as downward pressure on wages, lack of housing, difficulty in getting your kid into your chosen school, pressure on services and youth unemployment make the open door immigration policy seem barmy.

I'm a leftie by nature but I think that assessment is spot on. The traditional parties have spent so long fighting for the middle ground from their Westminster bubble that they've lost touch with the reality of ordinary folk. Farage, regardless of what I think of his party and it's aims, at least has a grasp of that reality.

I saw a quote on Twitter from him earlier - "I don't have a foreign policy". Speaks volumes.

Almost certainly taken out of context. I'm sure that comment was qualified.

I saw a quote on Twitter from him earlier - "I don't have a foreign policy". Speaks volumes.

His policy is not to have a policy?

His policy is not to have a policy?

I suspect he said something about not meddling in the affairs of others. I don't know though as I don't know where that is from.

Thought it was crap debate turned into a shouting match so turned over to watch PSG v Chelsea which was more exciting to be honest.

 

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Run away, close your eyes, typical.

I'd be very interested to read about his policies for health, education, social services, police, armed forces etc etc etc

 

He's a one trick pony

Agree i was disapponted in both farage and cleggs performances so I turned over to watch skysports but ukip will do well in the euro elections and then do there usual collapse at the general election and will hand the election to labour by virtue of most of there support is coming from its core tory base support by default even though I think the Tory lib pact has done well in government and deserve 5 more years.

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The problem with Europe is not the open borders, or legislation or costs -its the fact it has expanded too far to include countries which don't have much in common and where the standard of living is very different. If it had stuck to the core countries - France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Benelux, Scandinavia etc you wouldn't see big movements of people.

The problem with Europe is not the open borders, or legislation or costs -its the fact it has expanded too far to include countries which don't have much in common and where the standard of living is very different. If it had stuck to the core countries - France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Benelux, Scandinavia etc you wouldn't see big movements of people.

That's a very good point actually and one I'm inclined to agree with. No going back now though unless there is a big crash.

The problem with Europe is not the open borders, or legislation or costs -its the fact it has expanded too far to include countries which don't have much in common and where the standard of living is very different. If it had stuck to the core countries - France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Benelux, Scandinavia etc you wouldn't see big movements of people.

Never considered that, great point.

The problem with Europe is not the open borders, or legislation or costs -its the fact it has expanded too far to include countries which don't have much in common and where the standard of living is very different. If it had stuck to the core countries - France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Benelux, Scandinavia etc you wouldn't see big movements of people.

Goes against the EU undercurrent of expanding and getting in cheap labour and undermining the workers.

My company does 60% of it's business with EU countries. Whether we are in or out of Europe our clients would still do business with us. It is nonsense to suggest that coming out of Europe would cost thousands of jobs.

All politicians are self-serving power-seeking ****s who don't give a flying **** about anyone.

The day I get diagnosed with some terminal disease or other I shall take down as many of these arseholes that I can.

Make no mistake Nigel will have the establishment running scared tonight because Clegg brought out the old cliches, lies and slurs and they just didn't register. When a third of your supporters think the other side won, you're in big trouble. This wasn't a debate held in the centre but a debate from fundamental ends of the divide. It was in or out , for a third of lib/dumbs to side with a Ukip leader is unbelievable.

Clegg throw the normal rubbish, 3 million jobs, isolating ourselves, not many laws, need a referendum only when traety change, the out voters are stuck in the past, the same old rubbish we've heard for years and the people didn't believe him. He then tried to smear ukip and Nigel and the people didn't believe him. The establishments tactics were there for all to see and they were rejected.

Cleggs performance tonight was pitiful. The only person happier than a Kipper tonightis Vince cable. Roll on the European elections when the peoples army sticks it to the man again.

For those banging on about ukips other policies , its very simple. This was a debate about in or out of the EU. That's what Clegg challanged Nigel to. Clegg tried to bring in gay marriages a other stuff, Nigel kept to the brief and its clear Clegg seriously cocked up. If people want to hear ukips views on other policy areas I presume they'll want him involved in Westminster debates before the next election.

The boy Clegg showed that intellectually he is a pygmy. The rhetoric he used to try and discredit Farage was often infantile. One can see why he is the leader of the junior political party, which is the only level that he could aspire to. He habitually tried to twist things that Farage said in a vain attempt to show him in a poor light, but anybody who was not partisan to either side would have seen through his shallow subterfuge. Clegg was occasionally caught off balance and became shrill, whereas Farage to his credit remained relatively calm throughout.

I think that the crucial point was reached when Clegg claimed that the Lib Dems supported having a referendum whenever there were substantial changes brought about by a European Treaty, but that they wouldn't support holding one now, because of the current fragile state of the economy. Weasel words in reality, as presumably the next time there is a treaty, a referendum could be delayed by the same argument, that the economy was in a fragile state at that time. Perhaps treaties should only be held when our economy is strong, so that we can have our referendum. It has been 40 years since the last one and there have been several treaties since, with no opportunity for the British public to have their say on them, so quite understandable that they have become disillusioned with the political class and their promises which they have consistently broken.

Again, I come to the conclusion that Clegg made a big mistake in challenging Farage on this issue and he will pay for his poor judgement next month in the European elections.

"I agree with Wes."

Clegg tried the new labour trick of taking stuff out of context and trying to ram it hope. Luckily the people are seeing beyond that. Some of his claims about Nigel were ludicrous, particularly the "tax payer funded EU job, who on earth advised that? It was as if he planned it all in advance and was unable to think on his feet. It was like a little voice in his head saying " dont forget gay marriage" and " remember the WG Grace joke".

Its done for Clegg , the knives will be out. He's handed Ukip the momentum by agreeing to the debate. He's toast when the EU results come in.

I've seen Clegg's act plenty of times on here. To SaintsWeb's posters' credit, they did it with significantly more variety than this melon managed.

Over the two debates, I lost count of the amount of times that Clegg said "fantasy". It was also highly amusing to see Clegg accuse Farage of fear-mongering while stating that three million British jobs were on the line if we left. Looks like my opinion back in the original thread has been vindicated by events, not that I'm claiming much from this. It was a real no-brainer. Clegg got eviscerated by Farage in this debate. Worse to come in the European elections.

I made all these points of a Euro sceptic when I first joined and got call all sorts of stupid reactionary names, whats changed? Was I correct then as now?