Israel / Gaza

Hamas are killing their own people now. BOYCOTT ISRAEL

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28896346

Most of those rockets are completely ineffective, and are the biggest present that Hamas could give to Israel's objectives, which is to ethnic cleanse and depopulate their land of Palestinians.

 

I know you like to be a contrary chap, Alps. Would you disagree with that assessment?

So because they are ineffective that makes it right? Odd statement that. Lets all go out stabbing people with spoons and hope no-one dies, it's all good.

Also if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine, they could. Why are they the only side that seems to adhere to these peace treaties? Answer me that.

So because they are ineffective that makes it right? Odd statement that. Lets all go out stabbing people with spoons and hope no-one dies, it's all good.

 

Also if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine, they could. Why are they the only side that seems to adhere to these peace treaties? Answer me that.

It doesn't make it right, but it does make the Israeli response wildly disproportionate.

It doesn't make it right, but it does make the Israeli response wildly disproportionate.

"On average, since Hamas broke the latest ceasefire there has been a rocket fired at Israel from Gaza every 10 minutes."

Be interested to see how you would cope living under that and what you would say if your Government did nothing about it.

"On average, since Hamas broke the latest ceasefire there has been a rocket fired at Israel from Gaza every 10 minutes."

 

Be interested to see how you would cope living under that and what you would say if your Government did nothing about it.

There's a big difference between doing nothing and what Israel have done/ are doing.

"On average, since Hamas broke the latest ceasefire there has been a rocket fired at Israel from Gaza every 10 minutes."

 

Be interested to see how you would cope living under that and what you would say if your Government did nothing about it.

90% of which get destroyed by the iron dome, long before they get anywhere near civilians

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4558517,00.html

90% of which get destroyed by the iron dome, long before they get anywhere near civilians

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4558517,00.html

calling shurlok to the thread

Most of those rockets are completely ineffective, and are the biggest present that Hamas could give to Israel's objectives, which is to ethnic cleanse and depopulate their land of Palestinians.

 

I know you like to be a contrary chap, Alps. Would you disagree with that assessment?

Jesus, even you must know that is weak as an argument.

Even if Iron Dome is 99% effective (which it is far from), what does the Israeli leadership say to the families of the victims of the remaining 1% ?

Dont forget that this is a nation who post-Holocaust considers the life of every citizen to be sacrosanct.

Lets not also forget this latest spate of violence was caused because Hamas kidnapped, tortured and murdered 3 innocent Israeli teenagers.

Israel is paranoid; it thinks it is surrounded on all sides by nations and people who would cheerfully re-enact the Holocaust and therefore reacts with a level of aggression totally out of proportion to events. However on the other side Hamas are a bunch of thuggish cowards who use their own as fodder for propaganda purposes, and are so f**king stupid they dont realise their tactics play straight into Israeli hands.

90% of which get destroyed by the iron dome, long before they get anywhere near civilians

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4558517,00.html

What is your argument? They should turn it off and make it fair? Lol

There's a big difference between doing nothing and what Israel have done/ are doing.

Israel are defending themselves, it's not their fault they have a superior armed forces, superior defences and Hamas choose to fire rockets from civilian places and don't allow the civilians to leave.

Jesus, even you must know that is weak as an argument.

 

Even if Iron Dome is 99% effective (which it is far from), what does the Israeli leadership say to the families of the victims of the remaining 1% ?

 

Dont forget that this is a nation who post-Holocaust considers the life of every citizen to be sacrosanct.

 

Lets not also forget this latest spate of violence was caused because Hamas kidnapped, tortured and murdered 3 innocent Israeli teenagers.

 

Israel is paranoid; it thinks it is surrounded on all sides by nations and people who would cheerfully re-enact the Holocaust and therefore reacts with a level of aggression totally out of proportion to events. However on the other side Hamas are a bunch of thuggish cowards who use their own as fodder for propaganda purposes, and are so f**king stupid they dont realise their tactics play straight into Israeli hands.

Israel's brute force is playing into Hamas' hands, international opinion is turning

The Hamas mortar that killed 4-year-old Daniel Tragerman today was fired from near an UNRWA school being used as a shelter in Gaza.

 

I'm trying to work out what you are, Charlie.

 

The long term, and preferred theory, is that you're a relatively harmless Middle Englander that has perhaps let too much "collective achievement" define you as a person. There is plenty of evidence for this; your opinions are unfailingly pro-British. Your reviews of historical shows over on the TV thread give an impression of man that not only believed, but lapped up whatever it is your brain has just processed, normally wistful remembrances of our Empire or WW2 days. You take pride in achievements that are not your own, to the extent where you can't handle any conflict with your interpretation of events, because it plays havoc with the composite system of self-worth you've developed.

 

If the idea that your government or its allies are incapable of performing evil acts, then I'd give up the history and start on Power Rangers.

 

Of course, this is just a theory which I'm floating to you for confirmation. If I'm wrong, we can discuss alternatives.

So you don't want to talk about the tunnelling campaign or Hamas hiding rockets in schools then? The real world's a bugger sometimes isn't it? Just when you think you've got it all figured out it throws up sh1te like this. In my imagination you are starting to resemble one of those megalomaniac computers on Star Trek, smoke emanating from your vents muttering 'does not compute' when confronted with a logical paradox or just too much complexity.

As for my 'unfailingly pro British' standpoint this is another of your gross oversimplifications I'm afraid - you seem to be specialising in those. I've never attempted to disguise the fact that I am fascinated by our history, because to me history is a fascinating subject. However, anyone who bothers to study history will soon come to understand that no nation possesses a monopoly on virtue and wisdom. Our story seems to me a remarkable one, and I dare say the people of these islands have made a contribution to world history out of all proportion to our number - but in that respect Britain is no different from any other nation.

While I hesitate to bring WWII into this discussion yet again, you really would do well to read Martin Middlebrook's book on the Battle of Hamburg. (see my post#657 in 'what are you reading') If you did then you might gain a better insight into the moral ambiguity of war and the virtual impossibility of calling right from wrong in a situation where those simple terms have become immersed in a sea of suffering.

But I doubt you'll bother.

Jesus, even you must know that is weak as an argument.

 

Even if Iron Dome is 99% effective (which it is far from), what does the Israeli leadership say to the families of the victims of the remaining 1% ?

How about signing up to the ten year truce that Hamas offered before any of this happened? It was based on ten reasonable conditions, many of which are the recurring subject of discussions now.

Instead, they tell them that Israel is their land and that the Palestinians are terrorists.

Dont forget that this is a nation who post-Holocaust considers the life of every citizen to be sacrosanct.

Every Israeli citizen.

Everyone else, particularly the Palestinians, are up for negotiation.

Lets not also forget this latest spate of violence was caused because Hamas kidnapped, tortured and murdered 3 innocent Israeli teenagers.

Actually, it was later determined that those murders were not ordered by Hamas leadership. Israel grudgingly admitted that they think it was a rogue cell.

Even if the Hamas leadership had ordered the murders, it still doesn't justify the doctrine of collective punishment. It is exactly the same principle the Nazis used; kill one of ours, and we'll kill scores of yours.

Israel is paranoid; it thinks it is surrounded on all sides by nations and people who would cheerfully re-enact the Holocaust and therefore reacts with a level of aggression totally out of proportion to events. However on the other side Hamas are a bunch of thuggish cowards who use their own as fodder for propaganda purposes, and are so f**king stupid they dont realise their tactics play straight into Israeli hands.

Israel is incredibly paranoid. If you want an insight into just how paranoid, I thoroughly recommend you watch Defamation. Their kids emerge from school believing the whole world hates them. Part of the documentary covers a school trip to Auschwitz. While on the trip, the Israeli kids approach three Polish geezers sitting on a bench and address them in Hebrew. The Polish chaps pull a confused face and mutter something in Polish, at which point the Israeli schoolkids immediately think that these guys are anti-semitic and want to do them harm. Both sides of the conversation are subtitled, so it's clear that the Polish blokes say nothing of the sort. The kids are brainwashed to the point where they are terrified by anyone outside their group.

With that context, it isn't difficult to see why hardliners keep finding power in Israel, or why Moshe Feiglin has enjoyed support for his disgusting views and a place in the Knesset.

Historically, I can't argue with your position. The various pan-Arab efforts against Israel prove your point. Israel enjoyed massive support amongst the West and the left until they started messing with Lebanon in the eighties. In just 30 years, their reputation is in the mud, and the only reason that they still enjoy undeserved support here is because of the very powerful lobbying movement, and clear bias from the BBC.

I listened to the entirety of PM this afternoon. They mentioned the killing of 19 Israeli informers in Gaza, twice. They mentioned the death of a four year old Israeli child killed by mortar at least four times. Not a mention of Palestinian casualties. Pure propaganda, and the BBC used to be a champion for the Palestinian cause.

Like yourself, I've often considered the stupidity of the Hamas attacks. Why do the one thing that you know will get your people killed? I think in many cases, an element of Mossad infiltration is in play. That'd certainly segue with the reports of informers being killed today. What else do Israeli assets get up to in Gaza?

Israel as constituted is an illegal state. They have settled land allocated to the Palestinians by UN agreement to the extent where a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders would be almost impossible to create. That has been the plan all along; make the Palestinian problem smaller and smaller until it goes away. Hamas have the legal right to resist their occupier, which Israel is based on international law and the 1967 borders.

The tide of criticism toward Israel's disproportionate actions is growing. Biggest ever Gaza demo here in the UK, and that is despite the media echo chamber (not you, Channel4 News). Hopefully, there will be enough pressure to change minds, perhaps get that ten year ceasefire. But when Israeli kids are raised in fear and taught that gentiles hate them, will hurt them, and just don't understand their situation anyway, will Israeli ears hark what gentiles have to say?

Umm.

Well I actually met some young Israeli's a little while ago and Paps description of them as a bunch of brain washed Hitler Youth style fanatics doesn't really fit all that well with the perfectly normal and rational (well as rational as teenagers get) youngsters I remember.

But he must be right I suppose because George Galloway and the internet says it's true don't you know ...

Umm.

 

Well I actually met some young Israeli's a little while ago and Paps description of them as a bunch of brain washed Hitler Youth style fanatics doesn't really fit all that well with the perfectly normal and rational (well as rational as teenagers get) youngsters I remember.

 

But he must be right I suppose because George Galloway and the internet says it's true don't you know ...

Basic comprehension betrays you.

That'd be my description of events from a documentary, linked on this thread. People can view it for themselves and decide whether the first-hand statements of Israeli children are any more reliable than the evidence you've presented in your rebuttal.

Umm.

 

Well I actually met some young Israeli's a little while ago and Paps description of them as a bunch of brain washed Hitler Youth style fanatics doesn't really fit all that well with the perfectly normal and rational (well as rational as teenagers get) youngsters I remember.

 

But he must be right I suppose because George Galloway and the internet says it's true don't you know ...

Only small examples but on the backpacking circuit I met some lovely individual, free thinking Israelis, but most of them go round in big groups and even have their own hostels. Unlike other nationalities who seem to mix better.

Certainly in Thailand they seem to have a bad reputation among the locals for rudeness, stealing etc. Possibly exaggerated but I remember hostels with "No Israeli" signs.

Only small examples but on the backpacking circuit I met some lovely individual, free thinking Israelis, but most of them go round in big groups and even have their own hostels. Unlike other nationalities who seem to mix better.

 

Certainly in Thailand they seem to have a bad reputation among the locals for rudeness, stealing etc. Possibly exaggerated but I remember hostels with "No Israeli" signs.

Certain Israeli voices are some of the most critical toward Israel, and provide some of the most interesting perspectives, Yoav Shamir and Gilad Atzmon are two I have already mentioned. Predictably, both have caught flak and the AS tag from the lobby. Atzmon is routinely protested; those protesting him haven't even read his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M5V_aqAck0

One of the comments on that YouTube video describes the students as useful idiots, a fair assessment. Atzmon's stuff is described as anti-semitic, but it's really not what I took from it. It describes the problems of a nation of immigrants with different cultural perspectives and different interpretations of Jewish identity. His main claims are that in the absence of cultural or religious unity, fear of annihilation, something he terms as pre-traumatic stress disorder, was one of the few unifying factors in this nascent people. Yoav Shamir's film shows how this fear is deliberately cultivated; taught in schools.

The benefit of Israeli criticism is the context it provides. I wonder how much more of it there would be if people were not ex-communicated and defamed when they spoke out.

Basic comprehension betrays you.

 

That'd be my description of events from a documentary, linked on this thread. People can view it for themselves and decide whether the first-hand statements of Israeli children are any more reliable than the evidence you've presented in your rebuttal.

Yes people will no doubt read your (disgraceful) post and then form their own opinion, on you as well as on what Israeli children are really like.

My opinion is that anyone who chooses to stoop so low as to stereotype an entire nations youth as 'all the same' essentially must have a screw loose somewhere. From my personal experience of meeting (a few) young Israeli's they come across as perfectly normal youngsters, a little more polite and reserved than ours tend to be perhaps, but not all that different from their peers here in Europe or in the United States.

So if you really want to unearth a prime example of fanaticism at work then abandon youtube and leftist propaganda because a eminently simple solution to your problem is at hand - you need only look in a mirror.

Yes people will not doubt read your (disgraceful) post and then form their own opinion, on you as well as on what Israeli children are really like.

 

My opinion is that anyone who chooses to stoop so low as to stereotype an entire nations youth as 'all the same' essentially must have a screw loose somewhere. From my personal experience of meeting (a few) young Israeli's they come across as perfectly normal youngsters, a little more polite and reserved than ours tend to be perhaps, but not all that different from their peers here in Europe or in the United States.

 

So if you really want to unearth a prime example of fanaticism at work then abandon youtube and leftist propaganda because a eminently simple solution to your problem is at hand - you need only look in a mirror.

The Israelis treat Palestinian kids as "all the same".

I'm not saying all Israeli kids are the same, but I am saying that the Israeli education system cultivates a sense of fear, of impending destruction and that gentiles can't be trusted. It's an even weirder accusation when many of my sources, including the film in question, are by people born in Israel.

If sir has anything beyond bungling attempt character assassination and vague, unverifiable accounts of meetings with Israeli children, or the broad and unyielding apologism for a regime that deliberately targets Palestinian children for murder, let us know.

The Israelis treat Palestinian kids as "all the same".

 

I'm not saying all Israeli kids are the same, but I am saying that the Israeli education system cultivates a sense of fear, of impending destruction and that gentiles can't be trusted. It's an even weirder accusation when many of my sources, including the film in question, are by people born in Israel.

 

If sir has anything beyond bungling attempt character assassination and vague, unverifiable accounts of meetings with Israeli children, or the broad and unyielding apologism for a regime that deliberately targets Palestinian children for murder, let us know.

Might the fact that the Israeli education system has been forced to provide their children with air raid shelters at every school - shelters that are in all too regular use by the way - explain why some Israeli kids might have become fearful? An obvious enough point I would have thought but too subtle for you perhaps. Before you say it, I see no one on here disputing the fact that Palestinian kids have it even worse - much worse actually.

As for Israeli 'deliberately' targeting Gaza children I'm not at all sure that's really true. I must add here that this forum still awaits your response to (seemingly reliable) reports that Hamas has concealed rockets in UN run schools. Indeed, please feel free to address this specific point when you are ready to do so.

In any case I wonder if the parents of the little boy (aged 4) killed in a Hamas mortar attack on his kibbutz last Friday feel that their child's murder was a unintentional result of this long war, or whether Hamas 'deliberately' targeted him? Hamas rockets tend to be crude and rather inaccurate weapons (smaller but akin to the old Scud or V1 missile perhaps) but a heavy mortar in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing is a lethally accurate weapon.

But you tell me - afterall you seem to have all the answers don't you?

As for Israeli 'deliberately' targeting Gaza children I'm not at all sure that's really true. I must add here that this forum still awaits your response to (seemingly reliable) reports that Hamas has concealed rockets in UN run schools. Indeed, please feel free to address this specific point when you are ready to do so.

If there is any lack of certainty, perhaps it's a background knowledge thing.

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/emergency-reports/gaza-situation-report-27

 

• UNRWA strongly condemns the Israeli missile strike next to an UNRWA shelter in Rafah, killing nine people, including five children aged 3 to 15 who sought refuge in the school.
  
• UNRWA preliminary investigations indicate that five UNRWA emergency shelters – all of which are UN Premises protected under the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations – have been subject to direct kinetic strikes by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). One of those emergency shelters has been struck on two occasions. Three of these five schools are funded by the United States of America, and a fourth school is funded by the European Commission. UNRWA estimates that a total of 95 installations have been damaged since 8 July 2014 in 135 strikes, including at least 10 direct hits. The appalling incident in Rafah yesterday is the first time a strike in the immediate vicinity of one of UNRWA premises caused fatalities, and comes only four days after UNRWA staff carried out dead and wounded civilians from the UN school in Jabalia. UNRWA continues to call upon the State of Israel to respect international law, which requires that principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution in an attack must be taken into account by parties to a conflict.
  

In any case I wonder if the parents of the little boy (aged 4) killed in a Hamas mortar attack on his kibbutz last Friday feel that their child's murder was a unintentional result of this long war, or whether Hamas 'deliberately' targeted him? Hamas rockets tend to be crude and rather inaccurate weapons (smaller but akin to the old Scud or V1 missile perhaps) but a heavy mortar in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing is a lethally accurate weapon.

 

But you tell me - afterall you seem to have all the answers don't you?

Perhaps the parents are wondering if their son would be alive if any of the peace initiatives offered recently, or over the years, would have made their son more secure than the present plan of "mowing the lawn" and eventual genocide.

Israel doesn't want peace. When Hamas was outside of the Palestinian unity government, the negotiating Palestinians gave up far more than was required than under international law, agreeing to cede settlements and give up a Palestinian right of return. Israel walked away from that, just as they are making the current Egyptian-led efforts irreconcilable by flat out disagreement or alternatively, agreeing to a point in principle and then attaching so many of their own conditions as to make it meaningless.

This opinion piece from the Jerusalem Post is at least honest about the fate of Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Into-the-fray-Why-Gaza-must-go-368862

I don't have all the answers, but I think the solution here is US pressure; Washington is in a unique position of influence and there are reasons to suggest that it might wield it. The Obama administration was furious over the UN shelter bombing.

In the Obama administration’s most blunt statement of the three-week-old war, the White House said it is “extremely concerned that thousands of internally displaced Palestinians who have been called on by the Israeli military to evacuate their homes are not safe in U.N. designated shelters in Gaza.”

 

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/30/us-condemns-israeli-shelling-shelter-gaza/#ixzz3BCniMUxi

Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

No-one has all the answers. I find research helps, tho.

The basic problem always comes back to economics. In ireland, unrest and terrorism came from the poor areas where catholics were being treated badly.

Now we have a situation where palestinians are being kept in abject poverty by the Israeli blockade and aren't allowed to build an economy.

If people have more material comforts then it's easier to forget about religion, land and hatred and just enjoy life.

The Israelis are terrified of having a strong Palestine on their borders, but the current situation will do nothing to stop the rockets being fired into their territory.

The basic problem always comes back to economics. In ireland, unrest and terrorism came from the poor areas where catholics were being treated badly.

 

Now we have a situation where palestinians are being kept in abject poverty by the Israeli blockade and aren't allowed to build an economy.

 

If people have more material comforts then it's easier to forget about religion, land and hatred and just enjoy life.

 

The Israelis are terrified of having a strong Palestine on their borders, but the current situation will do nothing to stop the rockets being fired into their territory.

Huge agreement with this; my SDLP landlady reckons that prosperity kept the spirit of the GFA going. We take all this stuff for granted, but the increased opportunities over there for all have helped to transform the place.

Oddly enough, the Unionists have come off worse in the short-term. In the bad old days, nepotism was rife within the Unionist community. If your dad worked in the ship factory, you worked in the ship factory. This led to a lot of people not bothering too much with education, hurting them now in the more egalitarian employment market.

It'd be very interesting to see what the Palestinians could build given a lasting agreement of peace and the infrastructure projects (seaport, airport) to do it.

I feel really sorry for Gaza, i hope he gets his drinking under control.

I dont think it is right to compare the Palestinians to the oppressed in the ghettos or in South Africa. They clearly have their issues but they are hardly the innocents here. Both sides are entrenched in their positions and causing death and misery.

I dont think it is right to compare the Palestinians to the oppressed in the ghettos or in South Africa. They clearly have their issues but they are hardly the innocents here. Both sides are entrenched in their positions and causing death and misery.

It's a fair enough statement if qualified, sadoldgit.

Why do you disagree with the comparisons though?

Chomsky reckons calling the situation in Israel apartheid, as understood by the situation in South Africa, is a let-off for Israelis. He thinks it is far worse. South Africans have been amongst Gaza's strongest supporters on the streets. Desmond Tutu, who spoke at the recent rally, wouldn't characterise that assessment as unfair.

The Warsaw ghetto / Gaza comparison rings true enough for me. One ethnicity, hemmed in and unable to leave, suffering collective punishment when trying to escape their situation. To re-iterate; Hamas action is legal under international law, Israel's is not. In a world where innocents are hard to come by, how about going with international law?

so, no wrong doing on both sides, just Israel?

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/09/palestineisrael-indiscriminate-palestinian-rocket-attacks

lol, Bats been doing his research.

I think it's a mistake to try to argue that there isn't fault on both sides. But the Israelis have killed far more civilians, are illegally occupying territory and are keeping the Palestinians in state of poverty with their economic blockade.

Whereas the Palestinians have fired rockets in order to protest at the above

I find research helps ...

You see this is where you are going wrong Pap because those who lay claim to being genuine 'seekers after the truth' are obliged to commence their research with an attempt to see both sides of a question first (or looking at 'the other side of the hill' as Basil Liddell-Hart once said) and only then forming a conclusion based on that perspective. You on the other hand listen to George Galloway's bile, limit your so called 'research' to finding opinions that happen to fit in with your own particular set of partisan assumptions and then come on here claiming to know how to solve the problems of the middle east! For your information resolving this intractable conflict has defeated the best efforts of generations of statesmen - so methinks the chances of you and 'gorgeous george' solving it in five minutes with a unholy mixture of anti-semitism, leftist dogma and hubris aren't very high.

I must say that you are hardly likely to enhance your (dubious) reputation on here by continuing to conflate this long war between Israel and the Palestinians with the vile crimes of Nazi Germany during WWII. I'm disappointed (but not really surprised) to see that you have now gone so far as to accuse Israel of 'genocide' - your term. Explain to me how come Arabs killing Jews is 'defence', but Jews killing Arabs is 'genocide'? If two sides shooting, shelling and bombing each other amounts to the same thing as genocide then please list all the wars in Human history that were not then genocidal in nature. No, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence of course, but you don't have a shred of actual evidence to support this wild 'genocide' claim because it's a obvious lie. Shame on you.

I would hope that most reasonably intelligent people on here have acquired at least a basic understanding of the unprecedented scale and extent of Nazi war crimes. Armed with that knowledge I assume that they should then be equipped to see your disgraceful comparison for the nonsense that it is. A mere smidgen of historical learning should tell anyone that the Warsaw and Lodz ghettos were - unlike Gaza - but a intermediate stop on the road to the horrors of Auschwitz-Birkenow. There are no gas chambers (or their latter day equivalent) in Israel - everyone reading this knows it.

I think there's a special place in hell reserved for those responsible for what Adolf Eichmann described as the 'Final Solution' to the Jewish problem. As terrible as the situation in Gaza certainly is, what amounts to a long running territorial dispute between Israel and the Palestinians hardly amounts to 'genocide' by any stretch of the imagination.

Forgive the terse response; I don't want to bore people any more than they have been.

1) Comparisons between the behaviour of the present Israeli administration and the Nazi regime are not new, often repeated and certainly not the exclusive brainchild of myself and George Galloway.

2) Appreciate the updated Chapel End Charlie definition on genocide. Am presently in the process of mailing historians of note, informing them that the attempted or successful destruction of an ethnic group is no longer enough; gas chambers are now the clincher. They'll have a lot of genocides to reclassify.

3) Finally, I reckon it's always a mistake to try and speak on behalf of the board. Not only is it presumptous to the point of rudeness, but it also betrays a lack of confidence in your own points. Reputation attacks are fine as long as your own is defensible.

I think it's a mistake to try to argue that there isn't fault on both sides. But the Israelis have killed far more civilians, are illegally occupying territory and are keeping the Palestinians in state of poverty with their economic blockade.

 

Whereas the Palestinians have fired rockets in order to protest at the above

This.

No one can expect people to live in the conditions forced upon Gaza by Israel's blockade and expect no reaction. If I was living in Gaza I'm pretty sure I would be one of the guys firing rockets.

This.

 

No one can expect people to live in the conditions forced upon Gaza by Israel's blockade and expect no reaction. If I was living in Gaza I'm pretty sure I would be one of

the guys firing rockets.

I read a good analogy. No-one would blame a rape victim for punching his/her assailant

This.

No one can expect people to live in the conditions forced upon Gaza by Israel's blockade and expect no reaction. If I was living in Gaza I'm pretty sure I would be one of the guys firing rockets.

I don't know; if you're not being provided the context and don't have a great deal of knowledge about history or world affairs, then I imagine it can be quite easy for say, your average BBC viewer to arrive at that impression. That's why the BBC was protested; for providing coverage that was devoid of any context or balance, unless it's for the Israelis.

Example. Every time Israeli commits an atrocity, we're given some sort of justifying context. Hamas killed teenagers, fired rockets, etc. Reciprocal context for the Palestinians is either based on a world that began yesterday or just not provided at all.

I read a good analogy. No-one would blame a rape victim for punching his/her assailant

Brilliantly succinct.

I read a good analogy. No-one would blame a rape victim for punching his/her assailant

But would they blame him or her for killing the assailant? I think the law might.

Forgive the terse response; I don't want to bore people any more than they have been.

 

1) Comparisons between the behaviour of the present Israeli administration and the Nazi regime are not new, often repeated and certainly not the exclusive brainchild of myself and George Galloway.

 

2) Appreciate the updated Chapel End Charlie definition on genocide. Am presently in the process of mailing historians of note, informing them that the attempted or successful destruction of an ethnic group is no longer enough; gas chambers are now the clincher. They'll have a lot of genocides to reclassify.

 

3) Finally, I reckon it's always a mistake to try and speak on behalf of the board. Not only is it presumptous to the point of rudeness, but it also betrays a lack of confidence in your own points. Reputation attacks are fine as long as your own is defensible.

1 - So you feel that repartition of a lie transforms it into something resembling a truth? How Stalin would have approved.

2 - My working definition of genocide is: the attempted mass murder of an large group of people - most often those from a different ethnic group. Clearly not what is happening in Gaza I'd say - but if you can prove otherwise then do so.

3 - It seems that you seem to under the impression that your anti-Semitism represents some kind of consensus - again hardly the case here I would hope.

By the way the forum still awaits any sort of cogent reply to reports that Hamas has concealed rockets in schools. I'm starting to think that this might be a 'inconvenient truth' that you'd rather brush under the carpet.

No one can expect people to live in the conditions forced upon Gaza by Israel's blockade and expect no reaction ...

I kind of agree with you, the Gazan people have every right in the world to protest - they have much to protest about.

However when confronting a massively superior enemy a policy of 'jaw-jaw' might be wiser than 'war-war' because the military balance of power shows that the Palestinian people have embarked on a road that can only lead to their inevitable defeat. There is no guarantee alas that protesting in a less violent manner will certainly gain them a quick resolution to their appalling situation. It seems likely however that it would lead to more support internationally and ultimately perhaps improve the prospects of some kind of satisfactory resolution being agreed with their neighbours because the Israel people aren't the monsters one person on here would have you believe they are.

Should Hamas continue with their current campaign of attempting to bombard Israel into submission then I can only see further bloodshed in this region. Whether you agree with them or not, Israel will not compromise with terror and it is both equipped and prepared to react aggressively to attacks upon it. So terror breeds terror then, and that is the cold hard reality of the situation.

If you want to talk about the 'blockade' then do so, but you might do well to ask yourself why was the blockade of Gaza imposed in the first place? Those who like to brag of their extensive 'research' might wonder why their research has not thrown up the fact that Israel has (during periods of relative calm in the region) relaxed in border controls. Anyone on here prepared to open their eyes and accept the full complexity of the situation might even see that this is not a simple Jew v Arab conflict because Egypt and Jordan don't recognise Hamas either ... and I hardly think those Arab states could be described as the natural home of Zionist extremism.

so, no wrong doing on both sides, just Israel?

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/09/palestineisrael-indiscriminate-palestinian-rocket-attacks

Hang on, pap says Hamas are justified under international law to fire these rockets...

Lets face it, we all know Hamas hasnt got the balls to try to take on the Israeli army, which is actually the response permitted under international law.

I kind of agree with you, the Gazan people have every right in the world to protest - they have much to protest about.

 

However when confronting a massively superior enemy a policy of 'jaw-jaw' might be wiser than 'war-war' because the military balance of power shows that the Palestinian people have embarked on a road that can only lead to their inevitable defeat. There is no guarantee alas that protesting in a less violent manner will certainly gain them a quick resolution to their appalling situation. It seems likely however that it would lead to more support internationally and ultimately perhaps improve the prospects of some kind of satisfactory resolution being agreed with their neighbours because the Israel people aren't the monsters one person on here would have you believe they are.

 

Should Hamas continue with their current campaign of attempting to bombard Israel into submission then I can only see further bloodshed in this region. Whether you agree with them or not, Israel will not compromise with terror and it is both equipped and prepared to react aggressively to attacks upon it. So terror breeds terror then, and that is the cold hard reality of the situation.

 

If you want to talk about the 'blockade' then do so, but you might do well to ask yourself why was the blockade of Gaza imposed in the first place? Those who like to brag of their extensive 'research' might wonder why their research has not thrown up the fact that Israel has (during periods of relative calm in the region) relaxed in border controls. Anyone on here prepared to open their eyes and accept the full complexity of the situation might even see that this is not a simple Jew v Arab conflict because Egypt and Jordan don't recognise Hamas either ... and I hardly think those Arab states could be described as the natural home of Zionist extremism.

Yep.

Charlie 1 Pap 0....

I kind of agree with you, the Gazan people have every right in the world to protest - they have much to protest about.

 

However when confronting a massively superior enemy a policy of 'jaw-jaw' might be wiser than 'war-war' because the military balance of power shows that the Palestinian people have embarked on a road that can only lead to their inevitable defeat. There is no guarantee alas that protesting in a less violent manner will certainly gain them a quick resolution to their appalling situation. It seems likely however that it would lead to more support internationally and ultimately perhaps improve the prospects of some kind of satisfactory resolution being agreed with their neighbours because the Israel people aren't the monsters one person on here would have you believe they are.

 

Should Hamas continue with their current campaign of attempting to bombard Israel into submission then I can only see further bloodshed in this region. Whether you agree with them or not, Israel will not compromise with terror and it is both equipped and prepared to react aggressively to attacks upon it. So terror breeds terror then, and that is the cold hard reality of the situation.

 

If you want to talk about the 'blockade' then do so, but you might do well to ask yourself why was the blockade of Gaza imposed in the first place? Those who like to brag of their extensive 'research' might wonder why their research has not thrown up the fact that Israel has (during periods of relative calm in the region) relaxed in border controls. Anyone on here prepared to open their eyes and accept the full complexity of the situation might even see that this is not a simple Jew v Arab conflict because Egypt and Jordan don't recognise Hamas either ... and I hardly think those Arab states could be described as the natural home of Zionist extremism.

The problem with talking without substantiation is that you're reasonably easily defeated when presented with a few, basic facts. Hamas' campaign of bombing Israel into submission. Have you actually checked the history of the recent ceasefires?

Israel is most often the breaker of ceasefires, which ruins your dogma of Hamas' constant bombardment. This latest round of attacks wasn't started by a rocket attack either. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers began this round of attacks. Of course, once hostilities kick off, Hamas do end up firing rockets, and simple minded folk get to pretend that the Hamas artillery is capable of bombing Israel into submission.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/

Thanks for making the points about Egypt and Jordan's stance. They are an excellent example of a continuing criticism I have of your analysis. At best, it's born of ignorance and omits key information. At worst, it's outright shít

Jordan makes the "sins of omission" category. Yes, it's true that King Abdullah has knocked Hamas back, but there is popular support amongst Jordanians (many former Palestinians) and Abdullah has his own reasons for not wanting to promote them, mainly to do with keeping Jordanian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood contained. Your point about lack of recognition looks a little weaker when put in the context of a single autocrat and internal conflicts of interest.

Egypt not recognising Hamas omits loads too, but is probably better recognised as an example of complete shít. The military junta in Cairo has its own Muslim Brotherhood issues, and that's a factor, but the complete shít part of the "Egypt doesn't recognise Hamas" argument is surely Egypt's recent leading role in brokering cease-fires between Israel and Hamas. If Egypt doesn't recognise Hamas, why is it inviting the organisation to its capital city for peace talks as representatives of Gaza, including the military wing?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/19/israel-hamas-blame-rockets-air-strikes-end-gaza-truce

Basic research, sir.

Some very good news on this front. Israel and Hamas have agreed to a long-term ceasefire, in talks brokered by Egypt.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/gaza-ceasefire-israel-palestinians-halt-fighting

Some very good news on this front. Israel and Hamas have agreed to a long-term ceasefire, in talks brokered by Egypt.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/gaza-ceasefire-israel-palestinians-halt-fighting

I bet there are still rockets coming out of Gaza...

I bet there are still rockets coming out of Gaza...

Not with any currency of note.

I seem to remember some Middle East expert on here assuring us that Israel would never accept peace because his googling .. sorry 'research' .. had told him that they are in fact a bunch of warmongering genocidal extremists hell-bent on murdering the entire population of Gaza - when they're not busy indoctrinating all their children into a state of extreme fanaticism that is. But here they are with nearly two million Palestinians still inexplicably left alive in Gaza agreeing to yet another ceasefire. It seems they are even (despite their murderous nature) allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza. If you didn't know better you'd almost think that Israeli's too were tired of all this wanton destruction and bloodshed just like any normal (less Jewish that is) Human Being would be. Let's all hope that this latest ceasefire is not as stillborn as all the other recent examples have been and Hamas 'gives peace a chance' this time.

Talking about Hamas, I've done some googling of my own and while I can't claim it represents anything amounting to proper peer-reviewed impartial evidence, quotes taken out of context can sometimes be misleading, but taken on face value anyway it does seem that Hamas extremists may not actually speak for all the population of Gaza after all: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip-conflict.html

“The human catastrophe is just very immense, it’s getting worse and worse every day, and I think that’s one of the reasons Hamas took into consideration in accepting the cease-fire ... the mood is very critical of Israel, but they are also asking questions of Hamas: Why did we have to go through all this? Why is there no cease-fire? Why did we provoke Israel into this war? More and more questions are in the minds of the Palestinians, especially in this last week.”

Professor Mkhaimar Abusada. Al-Azhar University, Gaza City.

Well I for one make the professor right in all respects. I also think he's a brave man indeed for daring to criticise Hamas while living among them in the Gaza Strip. In any case he's probably in a far better position (both intellectually and physically) to call it than any of us are from the safety of our armchairs over here. However I reckon non of that will stop our resident 'usual suspect' from hitting the internet and telling us all why he's so very wrong of course ...

Depressingly, I think the long term prognosis might be the same. However, if there was ever a subject I wanted to be proved wrong on, this is it.

I'd expect more of the same in a couple of years, if not sooner. Like most of these major incidents, it probably won't be started by rocket attack. Tunnel-hunting in 2008, teenagers this time. The myth doesn't quite fit the reality.

Good to see Chapel End Charlie sourcing stuff, and finally twigging that Hamas isn't Palestine. Told you there was gold in them Internet hills, Charlie - but it's certainly not new to me, or this thread. Equation, especially the Palestinian = Hamas = Terrorist mantra, was part of this thread's early life, used to justify the targeted murder of kids, as I recall.

I've got no problems with the Professor's statements; he has every right to editorialise the opinions of the Palestinians he has met. I wonder whether many would agree with his digest though.

Oh while it's true that Hamas was originally elected into power (way back in 2006 if memory serves) any claim to real democratic legitimacy now seems tenuous to put it mildly - at least until new free and fair elections are held.

I must add that the recent summary execution by Hamas of 18 alleged Palestinian 'collaborators' (sic) hardly equates to any acceptable judicial process either. I note with interest that the death/murder of these people has aroused no protest from some otherwise vehement advocates of Palestinian rights on here. Why is that I wonder? Nevertheless it is obvious that Hamas and the Palestinians are not necessarily one and the same thing.

I find that this is one of the many benefits of real study, because even a little learning tends to make you rather less likely to resort to 'tar everyone with the same brush' tactics so indicative of the fanatical mindset - as those who (for instance) have attempted to demonise an entire generation of Israeli children would do.

It's admirable that you're trying to grasp such complex topics, Charlie - but don't you think you'd be better off getting a handle on the basics first? Just a few posts ago, you were adamant that Egypt didn't recognise Hamas, yet today, a long term ceasefire between Israel and Hamas has been brokered by Egypt. You beg the forum to accept your credentials of real study, yet fail to get the basics right? Difficult to reconcile, especially when it's compounded with shifting positions and a lack of source material. Those are valid criticisms, as is the charge that Israeli children are being taught that the world hates them, documented in Yoav Shamir's Defamation.

Here it is again, in case anyone missed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liJ2v19o46A

Dissent dealt with, home and abroad.

Israel:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/27/opinion/how-israel-silences-dissent.html?_r=2

Salford:

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/orthodox-jewish-man-beaten-mob-criticising-israel/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/noone-harmed-in-arson-attack-on-antiisrael-orthodox-rabbis-car-9749404.html

Rinse and repeat on the horizon. Collective punishment for all.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/deadly-attack-in-jerusalem-synagogue