Interesting Article...

This might have been posted somewhere already.....if it has then no doubt the post will be deleted/merged....

worth a read in my opinion.

http://www.footyplace.com/features/ffp-to-blame-for-southampton-exodus-0730298110

Yes, pity we dont look like we have the substance and knowhow on the board to make something like this happen...

Yes, pity we dont look like we have the substance and knowhow on the board to make something like this happen...

FWIW I suspect we do have people at the top who would be capable of making something like this happen, though we also have a host of decision makers and committees now all with their own visions, agendas, personalities. I miss the Dons ruthless single minded vision.

I also think Cortese would agree with most of that article, thinking back over some of his very limited comments over the years:

Looking to emulate the Barca academy, our Southampton Way philosophy at Staplewood etc.

Saying one day we could pay a player £200K PW (Regarding the FFP figures in the article, again, if Cortese really was able to deliver the CL, then he could increase the wage bill accordingly).

Saying we can never compete with the financial wealth of the big six, and that we have to think of other ways to be competitive, such as the academy (football leaders thing).

Recently saying that SFC will always find it hard to resist the big clubs due to the salaries that the players would be offered.

Oh well!

Err.. That's the impression I've had all along. Surely that's why we set up a development centre in North Africa and packed Radhi Jaïdi off to be it's figurehead, and why Ralph keeps harkin on about branding and commercial operations?

Ever since Cortese quite rightly stated his opposition to FFP but failed to convince anyone that it shouldn't be implemented, it was clear that we needed a new way to grow the club within the boundaries set by FFP.

The only catch is that we'd ideally also like to keep playing in the Premier League as well as bringing the country's top talent through our academy, which is where things start to get complicated!

This might have been posted somewhere already.....if it has then no doubt the post will be deleted/merged....

 

worth a read in my opinion.

 

http://www.footyplace.com/features/ffp-to-blame-for-southampton-exodus-0730298110

Cheers for posting - interesting read.

I may have mentioned once or twice that it's possibly the pesky FFP rules that have scuppered our ambitions....

I am left wondering whether the ultimate reason for Katharina and Cortese "falling out" was that Cortese wanted to flout the FFP rules, sticking two fingers up to the Premier League in the process (and taking any punishment on the chin) whilst Katharina wasn't willing to break the rules (her being Swiss and honourable and all that...)

Anyone know what our 'punishment' would be if we did break the FFP wage cap? Points deduction? A fine? Slap on the wrist? If the punishment is a fine, does anyone know if the potential financial rewards of breaking the rules (e.g. Champions League qualification) could/would outweigh the cost of paying the fine?

I'm just picking up on what Krueger said yesterday about the club switching its strategy, in the wake of Cortese's departure, from a fast-track route into Europe to a more slower organic path....

Cheers for posting - interesting read.

 

I may have mentioned once or twice that it's possibly the pesky FFP rules that have scuppered our ambitions....

 

I am left wondering whether the ultimate reason for Katharina and Cortese "falling out" was that Cortese wanted to flout the FFP rules, sticking two fingers up to the Premier League in the process (and taking any punishment on the chin) whilst Katharina wasn't willing to break the rules (her being Swiss and honourable and all that...)

 

Anyone know what our 'punishment' would be if we did break the FFP wage cap? Points deduction? A fine? Slap on the wrist? If the punishment is a fine, does anyone know if the potential financial rewards of breaking the rules (e.g. Champions League qualification) could/would outweigh the cost of paying the fine?

 

I'm just picking up on what Krueger said yesterday about the club switching its strategy, in the wake of Cortese's departure, from a fast-track route into Europe to a more slower organic path....

You only have to look at the transfer activity this summer at Man City and PSG to see how crippling the punishments can be.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/ferguson-fears-loopholes-will-defeat-new-ffp-rules-7685236.html

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-city-could-make-legal-688417

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1753485-how-paris-saint-germain-and-monaco-will-beat-financial-fairplay

And the Monkey Chicken Petting Zoo??

Cheers for posting - interesting read.

 

I may have mentioned once or twice that it's possibly the pesky FFP rules that have scuppered our ambitions....

 

I am left wondering whether the ultimate reason for Katharina and Cortese "falling out" was that Cortese wanted to flout the FFP rules, sticking two fingers up to the Premier League in the process (and taking any punishment on the chin) whilst Katharina wasn't willing to break the rules (her being Swiss and honourable and all that...)

 

Anyone know what our 'punishment' would be if we did break the FFP wage cap? Points deduction? A fine? Slap on the wrist? If the punishment is a fine, does anyone know if the potential financial rewards of breaking the rules (e.g. Champions League qualification) could/would outweigh the cost of paying the fine?

 

I'm just picking up on what Krueger said yesterday about the club switching its strategy, in the wake of Cortese's departure, from a fast-track route into Europe to a more slower organic path....

Look at QPR. Drove a cart and horses through the regulations last season, with Redknapp doing his usual. They risked a points deduction, but are currently 'expecting' only a big fine. Though there doesn't seem much sign of them actually paying it.

You only have to look at the transfer activity this summer at Man City and PSG to see how crippling the punishments can be.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/ferguson-fears-loopholes-will-defeat-new-ffp-rules-7685236.html

 

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-city-could-make-legal-688417

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1753485-how-paris-saint-germain-and-monaco-will-beat-financial-fairplay

Perhaps an interesting extract from that 3rd article in your list....

"The aforementioned are all ways of effectively increasing revenue, but that is without mentioning player sales.

Like any club that gets taken over and improves its standing within the European game, there will always be players moved on who don’t quite fit in with the team’s plans any longer. Recouping a sizeable amount of the original fee paid for the player—or in other cases, turning a profit—is another part of PSG’s strategy. "

So, by selling players some of our players at a profit we are simply emulating the PSG model of revenue generation.....

What I don't see explained in the regs that I've read, is .......

year 1: club exceeds the £4million pay increase by say £20million, raising its wage bill form say the £52 bear point to £72 million. It is punished.

year 2 : is the club's base wage bill now £72million? So it could continue to pay £72 million, or indeed raise it by another £4 million, with no further punishment?

if so, it may even be a sensible tactic for a club (with a rich backer) to deliberately break the rules and take even a points deduction one year, to allow it to compete with the big boys in future years.

that's exactly what I was wondering - absolutely screw the pooch year one - pay the fine and next year you'll be set to really challenge on an equal par with the 'big' boys

I'd like to know what the punishments actually are...?? anyone know..?

so the way i see it its ok for manure to compete financially to the tune of say £181 million wages and be in debt dont forget to the tune of £600-750 million and still be ok for the ffp? yet were solvent and get shafted for being responsible..........um weird

Perhaps the recent player sales are being completed to establish a war chest to pay the FFP fine? With the PL/Sky money this must be close to £160m, so even if the fine was £1m, it would be a small price to pay.

Nah, too simple eh?

Seems to me like FPP is a classic attempt at regulation to manipulate the market... and its completely backfired... pretty much like something like RDR has done for financial advice in this country,....

What I don't see explained in the regs that I've read, is .......

 

year 1: club exceeds the £4million pay increase by say £20million, raising its wage bill form say the £52 bear point to £72 million. It is punished.

 

year 2 : is the club's base wage bill now £72million? So it could continue to pay £72 million, or indeed raise it by another £4 million, with no further punishment?

 

 

if so, it may even be a sensible tactic for a club (with a rich backer) to deliberately break the rules and take even a points deduction one year, to allow it to compete with the big boys in future years.

If that scenario holds true, which I've no reason to doubt, then I can easily see how Cortese and Katharina could have come to metaphorical blows over this. Cortese strikes me as the kind of chap who would break the rules in the short term in order to achieve the longer term goal, but I would imagine Katharina wouldn't contemplate such a ruse. Just a hunch as always of course.

Sounds like a case for the Office of Fair Trading to me ... Interesting article

FFP certainly does look like it was put together in the Snug down the Dog and Duck after an afternoon on the beer, and written down on the back of a fag packet and ratified by another group who were on the Brandy and Cigar course of a very exceptional meal, the fact that you can be operating with many Millions of pounds of debt and still be able to spend money like water without recourse is barking mad.

It certainly has all gone to the dogs. I just wonder when the football bubble will burst through pure apathy: sadly when you look at Barcelona and Real getting 55% of the TV money in Spain that day looks a very very long way off.

Fantastic article. And the incredible idea presented in the last few paragraphs of Saints launching a global football development school actually isn't that insane. Someone with vision could do that. It would be a gamble if the only purpose was to nurture talent for the club to play or sell. But if you add on to that the idea of building Southampton as a global brand that stands for giving every talented kid anywhere in the world a chance to realize their potential.. now that really would be something.

KL, are you there? This would be a vision your dad would be proud of.

This might have been posted somewhere already.....if it has then no doubt the post will be deleted/merged....

 

worth a read in my opinion.

 

http://www.footyplace.com/features/ffp-to-blame-for-southampton-exodus-0730298110

Yay I posted the article about 10 mins before you on the awful BBC article thread, encouraging people to read this instead, but not being a full member, wasn't able to start a new thread, so glad someone has given it some publicity of its own. Funny how a relatively positive article (well, nearer the end!) only has a handful of replies compared to pages following the BBC article... sorry - not funny, meant normal round these parts!

Everyone should read the article, interesting to know how many peoples minds it changes, and if people can be a bit more rational and stop hating Ralph/Les/KL etc, like we sold all the players just because we wanted to. I posted it directly in reply to someone saying that Saints purposely chose not to offer the leaving players the same wages they were being offered elsewhere...

Yes, interesting, thanks for that.

I do find the whole thing very interesting. But what I can't understand is what the Premier League is doing? If there is a European Super League (ESL), then wouldn't that mean that those that run the PL would have a severely diminished product, and they aren't likely to be running the ESL. They might have a finger in the ESL pie, but that would be less than what they currently have with the PL. So we have a situation where the Big 6 + Everton have basically made the top 7 a closed shop. The gap between them and us will get more and more as they make ever more money until it really will be meaningless to have the league in the format that it is currently in. To be honest, I already feel that it has reached that point, but it will just get worse and worse. So Charles Greeen's comments might well be prophetic, although hugely arrogant and ignoring the fact that it is smaller clubs that have allowed the big boys to get big. I do think it fairly inevitable that there will be a ESL to the detriment of football in all countries. As I don't support Man Utd or Real Madrid, I have little interest in seeing them play each other every year in a league.

Having said that, football is an entertainment business. You do not have to have the highest standard of football to be entertained. Much more entertaining if teams are equally matched, so maybe an ESL won't be the worst thing in the world. As the article says, and as I have been banging on about, I really can't see the point of joining a competition that you have no chance of winning. What is the point of being an established mid table teams? Is it only so that you can get the rewards and watch the top 6 swan into town with all their foreign players? How often have supporters said that they would rather be in the Championship? While that might not be strictly true, I think that we all understand the sentiment. They/us can win the Championship. I guess you can say that we won the PL (section 2) last season. Wow - that's great.

But as I say, I really can't understand what the PL is doing. They seem to be becoming architects of their own downfall.

What a great article.......superb. Really interesting angle re. the Academy too. Makes it more the shameful that Cortese completely ignored the marketing side of the club as, ironically, this could allow us to e marginally more competitive. Hope RK is doing something about this.....

It is entirely plausible that the Football Club could become a relatively small appendage to a mighty, global Academy machine. It is certainly the way to go for Saints and indeed I hinted as much in some posts last week.

It is entirely plausible that the Football Club could become a relatively small appendage to a mighty, global Academy machine. It is certainly the way to go for Saints and indeed I hinted as much in some posts last week.

That is just odd

The academy is there to support the football club. The end game and focus should always be the first team.

The priorities should not be the other way around.

Global Academy? Mmmmmm that would be relatively inexpensive to run and could reap dividends. Expand into Germany, Holland and go from there?

The way to make the FFP fair is to identify the club with the highest make bill, set the ceiling at that and say it can only increase by rpi each year.

That is just odd

The academy is there to support the football club. The end game and focus should always be the first team.

 

The priorities should not be the other way around.

Welcome to the brave new world.

The way to make the FFP fair is to identify the club with the highest make bill, set the ceiling at that and say it can only increase by rpi each year.

That could work. Certainly much better than how it is currently set up where teams can only expand x% on what they are now, rather than improve by more if they can afford it.

Good article, and it explains Saints predicament well. I've always thought that it was not coincidence that Cortese left after the FFP rules came in. I can imagine that he might have wanted to flaunt the rules, but we know that the likelihood is that the authorities will come down like a ton of bricks on a club like Saints, but clubs like Man City will get a punishment that they are in a position to cope with quite easily. Fair play it certainly isn't, as even that tabloid idiot Martin Samuels has worked out.

Too many posters on the forum ignoring the consequences of FFP!

Fantastic article. And the incredible idea presented in the last few paragraphs of Saints launching a global football development school actually isn't that insane. Someone with vision could do that. It would be a gamble if the only purpose was to nurture talent for the club to play or sell. But if you add on to that the idea of building Southampton as a global brand that stands for giving every talented kid anywhere in the world a chance to realize their potential.. now that really would be something.

 

KL, are you there? This would be a vision your dad would be proud of.

The idea of a global academy is not insane, but the idea that it could be a Southampton brand is I'm afraid a little far-fetched. It is based on the idea that Southampton Saints (ughhh!) Academy is a world-wide phenomenon and would be well understood by fans of the PL, and therein lies the problem. We may have this grandiose idea that the Southampton Academy is the best there is, but in reality as far as the PL is concerned what (or who) has it produced. The only world renowned player is Bale, and he does not play in the PL. Even then most people would (wrongly) associate him with Spuds. Walcott and Chamberlain are hardly world superstars. Shaw? Really has not done anything of note as yet. Lallana, noting of any great note. These are all great products of our Academy, but there is no-one other than Bale who would be talked about out side of England. Whereas ManU for instance could easily point to the Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, etc raft of players who are all household names, and even Liverpool could boast more well known Academy products than us. Unfortunately the only Club that could really sell a global Academy brand would be Barcelona. In the USA Southampton is probably best known for the Titanic rather than any football connection, and many Americans would probably think you were talking about Southampton, New York rather than Southampton, England.

Too many posters on the forum ignoring the consequences of FFP!

It'll be forgotten by all except a few, and you can guarantee that years in the future, people on here will repeat verbatim nonsense about KL attempting to sell the club and thats why she sold the players, or it being Ralph's fault coz he prefers hockey, or the players leaving coz they all had a secret pact, and the more plausible reasons for our players leaving will be ignored. I bet 95% of people on this forum if asked for the reasons for the players leaving wouldn't even mention the FFP.

I still find it odd that the info contained within this article hasn't been picked up elsewhere and its barely been commented on here. I guess its not dramatic or negative enough to warrant "red top" paper inclusion or people just can't be bothered to read the article.

To have a world wide academy. You need to be a world wide brand

We are not

To have a world wide academy. You need to be a world wide brand

 

We are not...YET

There, I fixed it for you. It seems your mind has trouble with the concept of a future reality and continual improvement.

There, I fixed it for you. It seems your mind has trouble with the concept of a future reality and continual improvement.

We won't be mate. We hit the dizzy heights of 8th and the players could not wait to leave and there was nothing we could do apparently.

Sad really

We won't be mate. We hit the dizzy heights of 8th and the players could not wait to leave and there was nothing we could do apparently.

 

Sad really

But what if those players going was seen as a way to push on to the next phase of the plan? We've got some exciting new young talent coming through and a chance to invest £100m into balancing the team with experienced players who will play for Koeman. No guarantees, but if we see that investment, this could be an equally exciting season.

Good and in many ways informative article.

However, now for the caveat, it contains one rather considerable flaw or misconception. The writer finishes his conceptual thrust with, "With the memory of Bale and co still fresh, there is a brief window of opportunity for Saints to grab a seat at football’s top table. Inevitably it will take a triumph of marketing, not football to get them there, but it’s got to be worth a shot, surely?" It is always good to end a piece on an optimistic note, however, the concept that in a sense negaes it is this, that UNLESS the Saints can keep hold of the likes of Bale, Lallana, Shaw, Lambert, etc. etc. in order to BUILD ON THAT type of foundation, they will find it nigh impossible to create a Global Brand and creating a Global Brand does not happen overnight and that is the key to compete with the Big Boys. [The Saints this coming season I think could have made the Top 4. of that I am convinced - that's IF the Saint's had NOT been 'pillaged'. Along with Liverpool and City the Saints IMHO were the most entertaining team of last season, wonderful stuff for the purist, of which I am one. I am gutted, I was hoping to see them continue on developing in the Prem this season. Maybe just maybe the miracle will continue on but it will take that - a miracle]

Anyway back to the main theme - the teams that have the "marketable" BIG name players and thus 'win' things are the ones the non-grass root support WANTS to follow - let's get that straight! That's why of course the Big Teams are kings of the plassy supporters, you know 50,000 at the match 2,000,000 plus watching on worldwide TV and buying most of the merchandise, walking around far away high streets and thoroughfares sometimes almost with an air of flirtation and the touting of their allegiance often houses a subcutaneous taunt. Psychologically speaking, their 'by proxy' symbol "of hey you! Yes you! I'm as success mate - look whom I support!"

To create a Global Brand which is the road to truly competing with the Top Table - the Saints MUST indeed HAVE to be ALLOWED - to hang on to their Greats. So something has to be introduced to stop them being asset stripped ever again. It's not sport and it certainly isn't fair - in fact it's finally become devolved to being ALL about the almighty dollar and the very SOUL of the game duly suffers.

Unfortunately the only Club that could really sell a global Academy brand would be Barcelona. In the USA Southampton is probably best known for the Titanic rather than any football connection, and many Americans would probably think you were talking about Southampton, New York rather than Southampton, England.

I live in the US, where interest in the Premier League is rocketing, and many know about Southampton's reputation for nurturing great players. But the point is not what our brand is today. The whole argument of the article is that our best shot at raising our global profile is to build on this strength. I think it's a brilliant, if counter-intuitive idea. If the club moved in this direction, the real question is not: would it immediately boost our brand, because it wouldn't... that would take years... the real question is would promising young footballers be excited to join a Saints-branded academy in their country. And the answer is: I think they would. From that start-point, roll the clock forward 10 years and imagine what we might have....

I live in the US, where interest in the Premier League is rocketing, and many know about Southampton's reputation for nurturing great players. But the point is not what our brand is today. The whole argument of the article is that our best shot at raising our global profile is to build on this strength. I think it's a brilliant, if counter-intuitive idea. If the club moved in this direction, the real question is not: would it immediately boost our brand, because it wouldn't... that would take years... the real question is would promising young footballers be excited to join a Saints-branded academy in their country. And the answer is: I think they would. From that start-point, roll the clock forward 10 years and imagine what we might have....

Im currently in Hong Kong and have seen the obligatory ManU and Liverpool shirts on the street. The simplest thing we could do to strengthen the brand is to improve the logo. The forest over the water with the home rose is not strong enough. We need to simplify it, and I would suggest the Wessex dragon over the rose would immediately increase our penetration into Asia. Also, reducing the white content on the strip - for all his faults, Cortese knew where we should be focussing our marketing, and that is Asia. FWIW

Im currently in Hong Kong and have seen the obligatory ManU and Liverpool shirts on the street. The simplest thing we could do to strengthen the brand is to improve the logo. The forest over the water with the home rose is not strong enough. We need to simplify it, and I would suggest the Wessex dragon over the rose would immediately increase our penetration into Asia. Also, reducing the white content on the strip - for all his faults, Cortese knew where we should be focussing our marketing, and that is Asia. FWIW

Oh yeah, that famous old Wessex dragon that is forever being associated with Southampton as a city and a football club.

Im currently in Hong Kong and have seen the obligatory ManU and Liverpool shirts on the street. The simplest thing we could do to strengthen the brand is to improve the logo. The forest over the water with the home rose is not strong enough. We need to simplify it, and I would suggest the Wessex dragon over the rose would immediately increase our penetration into Asia. Also, reducing the white content on the strip - for all his faults, Cortese knew where we should be focussing our marketing, and that is Asia. FWIW

What the eff is the wessex dragon?

What the eff is the wessex dragon?

Have you met my wife?