What is wrong with America

Well you might be surprised to learn that I agree with you in so far as there certainly is a strand of leftist opinion in Europe, and elsewhere, that despises the USA and all that it stands for.

 

However that (rather outdated I think) ideological based opposition to Americanism and its unapologetically individualist/capitalist ethos should not be confused with a far more widespread feeling expressed by those (such as myself) who actually admire the US but nevertheless feel that their attitude towards firearms specially - and law and order in general perhaps - is highly damaging.

 

This of course is not a feeling restricted to Europeans only because many US citizens (including their current President I suspect) feel likewise but find themselves trapped within a culture that refuses to recognise its own folly and a dysfunctional political system designed to place the concept of individual liberty above that of the wider interests of society as a whole. Surely there is something very amiss with a nation where innocent school children can be slaughtered in their classrooms with such appalling regularity, and yet the political class elected by the parents of these children seems not only utterly powerless to address the problem but too often refuses to even accept that there is a real cause for concern here anyway.

 

The thread title is unhelpful, but where you have gone wrong I think is that you have confused a widespread sense of concern re gun violence in US society, with a crude anti-American attitude that I suspect few on here probably hold. Think of it this way, the USA is akin to a old friend whom you love and respect, but at the same time recognise is far from perfect.

OK a good reply .............however .......

It is true that the vast majority of the US hate and want to stop the senseless school killings ( which BTW don't happen every week)........but the right to bear arms will not change........

Now one more thing 99% of gun crime happens in (being political correct here) the ethnically challenged neighborhoods.........if you don't go there you're ok............but don't every think that represents what the US or Canada is really like.

You're wrong in saying that there is no difference in attitude between Canada and the U.S. There is a big difference. To put it in a pithy way: the U.S. attitude can be summed up with the phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death"; whereas the Canadian attitude is encapsulated in the phrase "peace, order and good government". The majority view in the U.S. is centred in rampant individualism (libertarianism, in its more extreme form) and self-centredness. Government is seen as a threat to free enterprise and the rights of the individual. In Canada the majority believes in promoting what's best for the community. Government is viewed as a legitimate means to moderate and regulate the behaviour of corporatism. When the extremist Republicans (the Tea-Party-types) look north they actually consider the Canadian system as "socialistic" or "communistic". Which is a laugh, and shows how little attention they pay to what's happening here. That might have been an understandable view in the 70s, during Trudeau's time as PM; but our current PM (who's been running the show for a decade) emulates and promotes all-things-Republican and is trying to turn Canada into a carbon copy of our neighbour to the south - even though 65% consistently disagree with his policies and tactics.

 

It seems to me, Sarnia, that you are much more American in your attitude and would be much happier on the other side of the border. Agreed?

OMG ........ what utter cr*p you spout out .........

So when the Trudeau/Chretin Liberals ruled with 30% of the vote i.e 70% hated them that was OK with you..........

You keep saying the majority........where is this majority EH?? ....in the English as a second language hell hole that is the GTA (sorry golden horse shoe)..........you really need to realize how much the rest of Ontario hates the liberal party

Oh BTW will be in New Hampshire next month ........you know the "Live Free or Die" state

I don't call you dumb that often, because I really don't need to.

 

I think I explained my position vis-a-vis you pretty clearly. Right now my position is sitting down.

You explained FA ............just trying to twist everything.............stay sitting down .....that's your best option

Bloody hell! First Chapel end Charlie, and now Hamilton Saint.

 

You guys certainly do have an excellent understanding of the attitudes in the northern half of America. Kudos to the both of you!

Really!! one has never been here...... the other lives in Utopia

OMG ........ what utter cr*p you spout out .........

 

So when the Trudeau/Chretin Liberals ruled with 30% of the vote i.e 70% hated them that was OK with you..........

 

You keep saying the majority........where is this majority EH?? ....in the English as a second language hell hole that is the GTA (sorry golden horse shoe)..........you really need to realize how much the rest of Ontario hates the liberal party

 

Oh BTW will be in New Hampshire next month ........you know the "Live Free or Die" state

I'm not spouting utter crap; I'm presenting some reasonable ideas and interpretations you might try to respond to - instead of lashing out.

Trudeau and Chretien got 30%, you say? Check the facts.

Trudeau's percentages in federal elections: 38% ('68 ), 43% ('72), 40% ('74), 44% ('79). Chretien's percentages in federal elections: 38% ('88 ), 40% ('97), 36% ('00).

I use the word "majority" to indicate that not everyone holds to the particular beliefs I'm discussing - but more do than not. The prevailing view is the majority view. It's a straightforward concept for most people, I think.

Your reference to the "English as a second language hell hole" indicates the underlying bigotry you hold for racial minorities (you know - those who don't belong to the "majority"). You've expressed this sort of thing before, but I let it go.

If the "rest of Ontario hates the Liberal Party so much", why can't the PCs get themselves elected? There have been four Liberal wins in a row (2003-2015) and 6 wins in the last 30 years. The majority of Ontarians (oops, there's that word again!) just don't like the narrow-minded, reactionary leaders the PCs keep choosing. Tim Hudak was a dud; now they seem to have chosen another of that breed. Ontarians prefer conservatives of the Bill Davis type - honest, fair, and willing to govern on behalf of the majority view (oops), rather than the narrow extreme.

Really!! one has never been here...... the other lives in Utopia

You have a decidedly Us vs Them sort of attitude. And an apparent reluctance to deal with ideas in a reasonable way.

I know your area of the province well. My wife is from Blenheim, near Chatham. Ontario is made of many communities. Embrace the diversity.

You explained FA ............just trying to twist everything.............stay sitting down .....that's your best option

Like, touché.

Taken from The Guardian.

A Cleveland police officer who stood on the hood of a car and fired his gun 49 times through the windshield at two unarmed passengers has been found not guilty on two counts of voluntary manslaughter after prosecutors failed to prove without reasonable doubt that the bullets fired by officer Brelo were the cause of death.

WTF?

Taken from The Guardian.

 

A Cleveland police officer who stood on the hood of a car and fired his gun 49 times through the windshield at two unarmed passengers has been found not guilty on two counts of voluntary manslaughter after prosecutors failed to prove without reasonable doubt that the bullets fired by officer Brelo were the cause of death.

 

WTF?

They couldnt prove he fired the fatal 49 shots because other police officers shot at them another 88 times. So thats alright then.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/cleveland-officer-not-guilty-shot-137-times-police

They couldnt prove he fired the fatal 45 shots because other police officers shot at them another 92 times. So thats alright then.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/cleveland-officer-not-guilty-shot-137-times-police

So a malfunctioning exhaust is punishable by death by over 100 shots now. Must get that MOT done.

So a malfunctioning exhaust is now punishable by death by over 100 shots now. Must get that MOT done.

Im not having a fireworks party this year. It'll be carnage.

Beyond belief.

But if they had stayed in the car then they would have been alright. Oh...

Strange thing is, Cleveland is the nearest big city to me, but I had no clue what that story was all about until reading this forum.....Yeah, I saw something about it on the news, but it didn't stand out as something special. I never got past the headlines of the story.

That says it all really.

They couldnt prove he fired the fatal 49 shots because other police officers shot at them another 88 times. So thats alright then.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/cleveland-officer-not-guilty-shot-137-times-police

Bloody hell.

Bloody hell.

Be fair. 136 shots would have done the job. 137 just pushed it over the top as far as the lefties are concerned.

It would probably been only 50 shots if they had the sense to run away.

Edit: Over to you, Sarnie for the spin on this one.

It's obviously a exceptionally difficult and dangerous job to do, but from afar you have to say that at least some US police officers appear to be at war with the public rather than attempting to serve them.

This situation seems to be escalating dangerously and unless effective measures at taken to address it PDQ then you can see some kind of renewed race relations crisis my well reoccur in the USA before too long.

This situation seems to be escalating dangerously and unless effective measures at taken to address it PDQ then you can see some kind of renewed race relations crisis my well reoccur in the USA before too long.

I think you may be about a month too late with that comment.

I'm not talking about the shootings here, but I don't think having a mostly black president has helped the situation. Though no fault of his own, and despite his efforts, I think it was maybe a tad too soon for a black president here.

Having one seems to have ignited the fears of older people and the most conservative. We really need to wait until the older generations kick the bucket, thereby narrowing the conservative base voters before things will change for the better. Yes.... I just said that we need old people to die quicker because they are the demographic of media such as Fox News.

I'm not spouting utter crap; I'm presenting some reasonable ideas and interpretations you might try to respond to - instead of lashing out.

 

Trudeau and Chretien got 30%, you say? Check the facts.

 

Trudeau's percentages in federal elections: 38% ('68 ), 43% ('72), 40% ('74), 44% ('79). Chretien's percentages in federal elections: 38% ('88 ), 40% ('97), 36% ('00).

 

So the majority didn't want them mmmmmm

 

I use the word "majority" to indicate that not everyone holds to the particular beliefs I'm discussing - but more do than not. The prevailing view is the majority view. It's a straightforward concept for most people, I think.

 

So how come the NDP are the official opposition ????

 

Your reference to the "English as a second language hell hole" indicates the underlying bigotry you hold for racial minorities (you know - those who don't belong to the "majority"). You've expressed this sort of thing before, but I let it go.

 

You really are trying everything with this.....BTW my son in law was born in Afghanistan

 

If the "rest of Ontario hates the Liberal Party so much", why can't the PCs get themselves elected? There have been four Liberal wins in a row (2003-2015) and 6 wins in the last 30 years. The majority of Ontarians (oops, there's that word again!) just don't like the narrow-minded, reactionary leaders the PCs keep choosing. Tim Hudak was a dud; now they seem to have chosen another of that breed. Ontarians prefer conservatives of the Bill Davis type - honest, fair, and willing to govern on behalf of the majority view (oops), rather than the narrow extreme.

 

See what I said about the GTA

Hope I answered you in a not too narrow extreme way

You have a decidedly Us vs Them sort of attitude. And an apparent reluctance to deal with ideas in a reasonable way.

 

I know your area of the province well. My wife is from Blenheim, near Chatham. Ontario is made of many communities. Embrace the diversity.

Well right now it seems to be Me vs The Rest of You..........problem is they are not ideas just some poor point scoring efforts from the clueless brits

It's obviously a exceptionally difficult and dangerous job to do, but from afar you have to say that at least some US police officers appear to be at war with the public rather than attempting to serve them.

 

Its gone further than that .........it seems that now it is OK to take on the cops to start a riot .........all because of the media fire storm .........

 

This situation seems to be escalating dangerously and unless effective measures at taken to address it PDQ then you can see some kind of renewed race relations crisis my well reoccur in the USA before too long.

True

 

Answers above

Be fair. 136 shots would have done the job. 137 just pushed it over the top as far as the lefties are concerned.

 

It would probably been only 50 shots if they had the sense to run away.

 

Edit: Over to you, Sarnie for the spin on this one.

Tell me what gun can shoot 49 with out reloading while stood on the hood of a moving vehicle??

Tell me what gun can shoot 49 with out reloading while stood on the hood of a moving vehicle??

Officer Brelo's last 15 shots were down into the car whilst standing on the hood. The car was not moving as it had been 'boxed in' by Police vehicles. I think it is a reasonable assumption, looking at the pictures, that the occupants would have been pretty much incapacitated by that time.

Perhaps you should actually read the article before commenting on it.

How's that for some IDEAS from a 'clueless Brit' ?

Tell me what gun can shoot 49 with out reloading while stood on the hood of a moving vehicle??

You mean the car that had stopped and was boxed in into which the officer in question fired his last 15 shots through the windscreen whilst stood on the bonnet? Amazing what actually reading an article can reveal, even to the terminally stupid such as yourself.

Tell me what gun can shoot 49 with out reloading while stood on the hood of a moving vehicle??

Why do you have to find a way out all the time? Why cant you just accept that this behaviour is not acceptable to any decent minded folk?

It's obviously a exceptionally difficult and dangerous job to do, but from afar you have to say that at least some US police officers appear to be at war with the public rather than attempting to serve them.

 

This situation seems to be escalating dangerously and unless effective measures at taken to address it PDQ then you can see some kind of renewed race relations crisis my well reoccur in the USA before too long.

It's more dangerous to be a binman than a cop in the US. Police officer doesn't even make the top 10:

http://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/

It's more dangerous to be a binman than a cop in the US. Police officer doesn't even make the top 10:

http://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/

This is definitely 'Stat of the day' on here. I never realised that being a dustbin man was such a dangerous occupation - although this might explain why they are always in such a rush to finish their work ...

Tell me what gun can shoot 49 with out reloading while stood on the hood of a moving vehicle??

Desperate stuff.

This is definitely 'Stat of the day' on here. I never realised that being a dustbin man was such a dangerous occupation - although this might explain why they are always in such a rush to finish their work ...

I'm just glad a binman can't empty 137 bullets in my direction if I mix up the recycling by mistake.

This stroke victim can count themselves lucky they didn't take a bullet:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11626538/Police-officer-quits-after-pepper-spraying-stroke-victim.html

Officer Brelo's last 15 shots were down into the car whilst standing on the hood. The car was not moving as it had been 'boxed in' by Police vehicles. I think it is a reasonable assumption, looking at the pictures, that the occupants would have been pretty much incapacitated by that time.

Perhaps you should actually read the article before commenting on it.

 

How's that for some IDEAS from a 'clueless Brit' ?

OK so as I understand it .........they were pulled over and then took off at high speed (maybe you can tell me why since you think you are so clued in )........and then refused to surrender when eventually stopped surrounded by cops in a vehicle with dark tinted glass at nite.........WTF did they expect to happen???

So how many guns did the officer have with him .......my guess would be one .......how did he reload so fast???

any IDEAS clueless???

You mean the car that had stopped and was boxed in into which the officer in question fired his last 15 shots through the windscreen whilst stood on the bonnet? Amazing what actually reading an article can reveal, even to the terminally stupid such as yourself.

MMMM terminally stupid ...........in your f*cking opinion which means jack sh*t to me .......

Why do you have to find a way out all the time? Why cant you just accept that this behaviour is not acceptable to any decent minded folk?

I'm not trying to find a way out all the time.........but you brits need to stop thinking you own the moral high ground ...........there is a lot wrong with the UK...........just accept that like there is a lot wrong with North America.......but not on the scale that you all are sensationalizing.

This stroke victim can count themselves lucky they didn't take a bullet:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11626538/Police-officer-quits-after-pepper-spraying-stroke-victim.html

You really don't get it do you !!!..........TY for a brit rag for that ........must make you all feel so smug and righteous in the small overpopulated island

This is definitely 'Stat of the day' on here. I never realised that being a dustbin man was such a dangerous occupation - although this might explain why they are always in such a rush to finish their work ...

So how many garbage guys were shot in those statics ????????????? and as for stat of the day LOL

A f*cking really poor attempt -1/10..........I saw those statistics last week........ you need to be current and not just add links to the uk press.................

Desperate stuff.

Why desperate?? .........just because you cant answer...........keep 'em coming........

So how many guns did the officer have with him .......my guess would be one .......how did he reload so fast???

any IDEAS clueless???

I don't know, but as the report takes information direct from the Court case, presumably those are the figures given in EVIDENCE - you do understand what that is don't you ?

OK so as I understand it .........they were pulled over and then took off at high speed (maybe you can tell me why since you think you are so clued in )........and then refused to surrender when eventually stopped surrounded by cops in a vehicle with dark tinted glass at nite.........WTF did they expect to happen???

 

Maybe, being coloured and seeing multiple Police vehicles chasing them they paniced. Mind you, they stayed in the car when they were eventually stopped, which is what you would have recommended, isn't it ?

OK so as I understand it .........they were pulled over and then took off at high speed (maybe you can tell me why since you think you are so clued in )........and then refused to surrender when eventually stopped surrounded by cops in a vehicle with dark tinted glass at nite.........WTF did they expect to happen???

 

So how many guns did the officer have with him .......my guess would be one .......how did he reload so fast???

any IDEAS clueless???

It takes me about 2 seconds to remove an empty clip from a semi-automatic handgun, and replace it with a full one.

How about you?

So how many garbage guys were shot in those statics ????????????? and as for stat of the day LOL

 

A f*cking really poor attempt -1/10..........I saw those statistics last week........ you need to be current and not just add links to the uk press.................

I wasn't even 'talking' to or about you!

Despite the unending torrent of 'LOLs' I doubt somehow that you are really finding this 'forum war' you have chosen to enter into to be a very humorous experience - indeed you seem to be becoming ever more overwrought with every passing day.

As the mods apparently refuse to lock this thread - for some reason that escapes me - it seems to me that the wisest thing for you to do would be to drop it before you stress yourself out completely. Naturally, nobody on here will for one moment expect you to do that.

MMMM terminally stupid ...........in your f*cking opinion which means jack sh*t to me .......

Not opinion old man, fact.

I've flushed away deposits with higher cognitive abilities than you.

I'm not trying to find a way out all the time.........but you brits need to stop thinking you own the moral high ground ...........there is a lot wrong with the UK...........just accept that like there is a lot wrong with North America.......but not on the scale that you all are sensationalizing.

I am sorry Sarnia but you really don't get it. There isnt one person here who doesn't think there are things wrong in the UK and there a plenty of threads about that stuff. The crazy level of butchery by guns is not sensationalising the situation. If you cant see that there is something fundamentally wrong with blowing away unarmed people then something isn't right. There is a legal system which it seems many of your officers cant be bothered with. I know which country I would rather be in if I have a run in with the police. Nothing to do with moral highground but plenty to do with not releasing quasi paramilitary's on the streets to shoot people without an arrest, a trial and a verdict.

I'm not trying to find a way out all the time.........but you brits need to stop thinking you own the moral high ground ...........there is a lot wrong with the UK...........just accept that like there is a lot wrong with North America.......but not on the scale that you all are sensationalizing.

I tink we all accept there is plenty wrong with the UK but on the subject of gun crime our moral high ground is fully deserved.

I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive, I assume you are an ex-pat living in Canada - that means you have about as much to do with the USA as I have France. Try discussing the subject rationally instead of reinforcing the stereotype of gun crazy American idiot.

This stroke victim can count themselves lucky they didn't take a bullet:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11626538/Police-officer-quits-after-pepper-spraying-stroke-victim.html

That is quite shocking (despite the thread idiots response). It quite aptly reinforces the debate at the top of the thread. Instead of making a rational decision based on the facts, the immediate response is to draw a gun, Taser and mustard spray in order to tackle a situation best suited to a defibrillator and First Aid Kit.

Yet again, it begs the question, 'what is wrong with America?'

This is a bit like the end of fighting talk when they do that defend the indefensible bit

All I can say is that the copper must be a sh1te shot if he has to fire another 15 rounds at point blank (after his original 34 attempts) to be sure of hitting the target

Its pretty shocking the US Government dont even know how many the police kill each year. From the best information available it seems as though the police killed at least 930 members of the public people in 2014 whilst only 51 police were killed by citizens. That alone is a damning statistic.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-new-estimate-of-killings-by-police-is-way-higher-and-still-too-low/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

Maybe, being coloured and seeing multiple Police vehicles chasing them they paniced. Mind you, they stayed in the car when they were eventually stopped, which is what you would have recommended, isn't it ?

I said way back stay in the vehicle and do what they say .........

guess you missed that bit............

So why did they take off ??? and as for the being black bit

It takes me about 2 seconds to remove an empty clip from a semi-automatic handgun, and replace it with a full one.

 

How about you?

You have a semi-automatic ??? .......WOW ............that must be a world record...........how long does it take to get all the clips out of your pocket.........I know you have them in your other hand ready

I wasn't even 'talking' to or about you!

 

Despite the unending torrent of 'LOLs' I doubt somehow that you are really finding this 'forum war' you have chosen to enter into to be a very humorous experience - indeed you seem to be becoming ever more overwrought with every passing day.

 

As the mods apparently refuse to lock this thread - for some reason that escapes me - it seems to me that the wisest thing for you to do would be to drop it before you stress yourself out completely. Naturally, nobody on here will for one moment expect you to do that.

Au Contraire.......I find it a great laugh ......the desperate attempts to try and find something for me to reply to..........if you really that this thread makes me stressed out and overwrought well think again..............the wisest thing YOU can do is stop replying.........you know I wont

Not opinion old man, fact.

 

I've flushed away deposits with higher cognitive abilities than you.

Old man EH .........I might your Dad !!!......ever thought about that