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washsaint

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Playing devils advocate here.......

 

Many on here seem to think it would be a disaster if Toby left us. And true, he is a class player that hopefully we can keep hold of but.................

 

Toby has only made 16 appearances for us this season - so, including Cup games, he has played less than half of our games. Does this mean he is injury prone? Does this mean that he is not as integral as many think he is to our success this season?

 

Yoshida has filled in admirably when Toby has not played and, as with last season with Lovren, it does appear that any CB who plays alongside Jose looks better because they are playing alongside Jose.

 

So while it would be disappointing if Toby does not sign permanently then it surly would not be the end of the world.

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Playing devils advocate here.......

 

Many on here seem to think it would be a disaster if Toby left us. And true, he is a class player that hopefully we can keep hold of but.................

 

Toby has only made 16 appearances for us this season - so, including Cup games, he has played less than half of our games. Does this mean he is injury prone? Does this mean that he is not as integral as many think he is to our success this season?

 

Yoshida has filled in admirably when Toby has not played and, as with last season with Lovren, it does appear that any CB who plays alongside Jose looks better because they are playing alongside Jose.

 

So while it would be disappointing if Toby does not sign permanently then it surly would not be the end of the world.

Are there really many on here that think it would be a disaster if we didn't sign him permanently? Agreed it would be great if we did he is clearly a top class player, probably the best player in the club, but how would it be a disaster?

Also, he has player 16 out of the 25 Premier league games since he signed, he missed 3 at the start of the season before he signed for us. So 16 out of 25, is not too shabby. Hardly think he can be classed as injury prone, on the basis of having picked up one injury (which recurred suggesting he came back too soon).

Agree to some extent about CBs playing alongside Jose, but it is clear that Toby is high class, whereas many could see that Lovren was not after his injury and was often helped out by Jose last season. Yoshida is a class act (sadly some still refer back to the days when he played as RB or LB and had nightmare games, played as left sided CB he is terrific). We also have Turnbull and Stephens coming through. I think we might still need to get another CB if Toby doesn't re-sign, until Stephens/Turnbull are ready to step up, but I really don't see any way it would be a disaster to lose Toby. I fully expect him to be elsewhere next season, most probably at Atletico.

Edited by VectisSaint
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I think a points earned whilst in the match 16 against points earned when missing stat will answer this clearly ��

 

Well, even with him missing for I think 12 league games of the season we still have the best defence in the league. Being just shy of half the games (14) it would at least suggest we don't crumble in his absence. I don't have a win ratio to hand though.

 

I do hope we can keep him, though I fear it is unlikely, but I don't think it is the end of the world. Performances this season have shown that is as much about the unit, and organisation that help build a solid defence as it is the individuals themselves.

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Playing devils advocate here.......

 

Many on here seem to think it would be a disaster if Toby left us.

 

It would be. If you can't see his quality on the pitch and need to resort to highly dubious statistics to try to make some sort of trolling point it says more about your lack of judgement than Toby's value to Saints.

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He really is a class act, so while it wouldn't be a disaster, it would be a massive loss. We're certainly unlikely to find a player of his quality to replace him at the same cost to us for the season (important caveat here).

 

While he is clearly enjoying his time here, i wouldn't suggest that he is settled and wants to say. At the end of the day, if City want him, he'd back himself to start ahead of the likes of Mangala and they are clearly a more attractive option than us - i guess if Simeone goes there though, their interest may drop.

 

That said, the offer to him has been on the table for a while, and he hasn't signed, so i'm sure there is already a shortlist of players that we would want to target should he opt to go back to AM/sign for someone else.

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Had he been playing over the past month, I wager we'd be higher than 7th.

 

Our defence has still been pretty solid in his absence, so he'd have had to contributed in the goal scoring department for us to be higher. Or maybe the suggestion is that he would have contributed to the overall confidence of the team, which is plausible I guess.

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Why ? Was he going to play Centre Forward and had he been playing would he have stopped the WBA and Liverpool screamers against us ?

 

My hypothesis of "I wager we'd be higher than 7th had Toby played" can't be proven. Maybe we'd have conceded 0 goals against Liverpool, West Brom and Swansea and ended the month with four 0-0 results, but 3 more points?

 

Maybe he could have played right back and Clyne or Yoshida at left back (both have played there) instead of Target, so we may have had slightly better forward play? Or maybe he could have played the DM role against Swansea when we were missing both Wanyama and Morgan?

 

Who knows, it's a just a hypothesis.

Edited by Patrick Bateman
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It's not just his defending that's top class, he is great at bringing the ball out from the back.

 

i reckon Ron will offer him the Earth to stay. Whether he does or not, who knows. But him and Morgan are players we need to keep. Clyne I'm not as bothered about. Been ordinary in recent games.

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, probably the best player in the club, but how would it be a disaster?

 

Agree to some extent about CBs playing alongside Jose, but it is clear that Toby is high class, whereas many could see that Lovren was not after his injury and was often helped out by Jose last season. Yoshida is a class act (sadly some still refer back to the days when he played as RB or LB and had nightmare games, played as left sided CB he is terrific). We also have Turnbull and Stephens coming through. I think we might still need to get another CB if Toby doesn't re-sign, until Stephens/Turnbull are ready to step up, but I really don't see any way it would be a disaster to lose Toby. I fully expect him to be elsewhere next season, most probably at Atletico.

 

Interesting thread and some interesting points.

 

I was remembering how impressed I was with Lovren last season, comparing to how some are talking about Toby. I think if people are honest there isn't much between how they both performed in first 15 games for us.

 

Let's not pretend otherwise, Lovren was superb for his first 15 games.

 

I would say if anything maybe more solid than Toby. Toby is more flexible and seems quicker, looks comfortable in midfield or RB whereas Lovren seemed very much a CB.

 

Hard to compare stats but will anyway...

We are defensively better this season so needs to be kept in context.we have had Forster all season.

Lovren's first 15 last season and 15 games Yoshida and Toby have played most of game this season;

 

Lovren W6, D6,L3 goals against 13

Toby W9, D2,L4, goals against 10

Yoshida W6, D3, L6 goals against 12.

 

Seems good character, excellent player, but don't think he had stood out as much as some saying, maybe I'm missing it. Good defending often not noticed.

(Just to be clear I'm not criticising him, wouldn't want Lovren back etc, just feel if you showed a lot of people his 15 games and Lovren's without the baggage you wouldn't find any /many more rating Toby as a lot better).

 

This season we have best defence in league,

in percentage of CB minutes

Fonte 43%

Toby 24%

Yoshida 23%

Gardos 10%

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Just remember back to a few seasons ago when CB was our weakest position. I'd really rather not go back to that, I'd much rather have problems in attack and four solid CBs as we do now. Keep Toby at all costs please.

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None of the few comments attributed to him make staying seem all that likely. He'll be in demand, having played for top clubs in Ajax, Atletico & now a full season in the PL, so he'd have to have an almost irrational love for Southampton to make him pick us above the multiple offers that are bound to come his way.

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None of the few comments attributed to him make staying seem all that likely. He'll be in demand, having played for top clubs in Ajax, Atletico & now a full season in the PL, so he'd have to have an almost irrational love for Southampton to make him pick us above the multiple offers that are bound to come his way.

 

We should put The Ballad Of Dejan Lovren eternal loop on his iPod :thumbup:

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None of the few comments attributed to him make staying seem all that likely. He'll be in demand, having played for top clubs in Ajax, Atletico & now a full season in the PL, so he'd have to have an almost irrational love for Southampton to make him pick us above the multiple offers that are bound to come his way.

 

Really it's not even up to us, it's up to the player and Atletico Madrid, sure as hell they aren't going to let us have him for 6.5 million £ or whatever it is because he's obviously worth far more. They just have to give us 2 million £ and then sell him to the highest bidder.

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Realistically, he came here for game time in the EPL. He's shown that he is probably the most talented defender/midfielder we have (I reckon) and so there will be a queue of "top clubs" offering him, and agent, all sorts of attractive offers. I will be very surprised, and delighted, if he is with us next season.

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Why ? Was he going to play Centre Forward and had he been playing would he have stopped the WBA and Liverpool screamers against us ?

 

The Coutinho goal was stoppable, Gardos was very, very slow off the mark and he turned his back. Good player might well have closed Coutinho down enough to change the situation.

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I'm probably in a minority but he hasn't really played enough to really catch my eye! Not saying he's not a great player but I'm not massively bothered if we keep him or not!

 

You're right, he's not played enough for me...but you can tell in the occasions he has played that he is a player. He's a proven Champions League player and he's in our squad, pretty remarkable we got him in the first place. Kudos to Koeman for that one, and if he had the pull to bring him here originally you'd think we have a chance, even if slim, to keep him here long-term.

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I Think that Toby and Lovren has been made to look better than they are because of MS and Wanyama

 

Thats an interesting argument and observation actually. It still puzzles me as to why his club let him go out on loan, I mean if they really have two better centre backs than he looks in our team then wow !

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The Coutinho goal was stoppable, Gardos was very, very slow off the mark and he turned his back. Good player might well have closed Coutinho down enough to change the situation.

 

Gardos was an unused sub. So to blame him for not getting out of those nice, comfortable seats, take off his tracksuit, run down the track, get on the pitch unseen by the officials (well at least the 4th, as Pawson wouldn't have had a feckin clue), does appear to be a tad harsh.

 

Or are you just talking more sh it again?

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Gardos was an unused sub. So to blame him for not getting out of those nice, comfortable seats, take off his tracksuit, run down the track, get on the pitch unseen by the officials (well at least the 4th, as Pawson wouldn't have had a feckin clue), does appear to be a tad harsh.

 

Or are you just talking more sh it again?

 

You're absolutely right, it was Ward Prowse that didn't close down correctly, Gardos was hauled off after 20 minutes against West Brom..no doubt for being crap. Point is still the same Coutinho wasn't closed down quickly enough, look at it again and you may see what I mean. Toby might have changed ther situation because he's a better player.

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You're absolutely right, it was Ward Prowse that didn't close down correctly, Gardos was hauled off after 20 minutes against West Brom..no doubt for being crap. Point is still the same Coutinho wasn't closed down quickly enough, look at it again and you may see what I mean. Toby might have changed ther situation because he's a better player.

 

No one was really playing great, was more a tactical sub. We brought on Elia and changed formation.

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We'll miss him, Clyne and Morgan next season, maybe we'll get lucky again or maybe we'll be found and short. We lost some great,ayers last years but kept some. Surely we can't repeat this season by losing the other great players we have. I mean we'll be left with Bertrand and Fonte and ......

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I think Toby is an superb player. He is great a centre half, Central mid field and at right back.

He is far better than Lovren overall, especially for us.

As much as anything because of his versitality.

The problem I have is, how did we sign such a 'Star Player'

A Champions League finalist.

A Spanish League winner.

Maybe because others see him as injury prone, maybe?

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Interesting thread and some interesting points.

 

I was remembering how impressed I was with Lovren last season, comparing to how some are talking about Toby. I think if people are honest there isn't much between how they both performed in first 15 games for us.

 

Let's not pretend otherwise, Lovren was superb for his first 15 games.

 

I would say if anything maybe more solid than Toby. Toby is more flexible and seems quicker, looks comfortable in midfield or RB whereas Lovren seemed very much a CB.

 

Hard to compare stats but will anyway...

We are defensively better this season so needs to be kept in context.we have had Forster all season.

Lovren's first 15 last season and 15 games Yoshida and Toby have played most of game this season;

 

Lovren W6, D6,L3 goals against 13

Toby W9, D2,L4, goals against 10

Yoshida W6, D3, L6 goals against 12.

 

Seems good character, excellent player, but don't think he had stood out as much as some saying, maybe I'm missing it. Good defending often not noticed.

(Just to be clear I'm not criticising him, wouldn't want Lovren back etc, just feel if you showed a lot of people his 15 games and Lovren's without the baggage you wouldn't find any /many more rating Toby as a lot better).

 

This season we have best defence in league,

in percentage of CB minutes

Fonte 43%

Toby 24%

Yoshida 23%

Gardos 10%

 

Sorry Nick I disagree with you completely. Lovren was decent but always committing risky tackles and gambles in matches, for me it was a combination of MoPo's tactics and the two DM's made his style of play look good for us... but we've clearly seen how important he was by improving the defence in his absence without missing a beat... and that is with a back four or clyne, yoshida, fonte and bertrand.... not shaw, not chambers.... Toby doesn't feature in this tbh as he has missed a few games and we are still solid as a rock bar worldies...

 

As for Toby... watching him play makes me feel like he is the best CB in the league... his presence, control of the box, leadership of the team etc etc... the guy is a class act completley. He is the best player in our team; better than morgan in CDM and the best CB... No slight on anyone else, but he is simply that good for me. Stands out a mile when he is playing. Haven't seen a player of his standard defensively for saints... ever.... Would love it if we could sign him, but as stated, we are more than fine with Fonte, yoshi, bertrand and Clyne, and they have had morgan and/or vic missing in front of the a lot recently!

 

Lovren was not that good, and it took people until the tottenham debacle to realise it. Yes, he did a great job for us, but the stars of that team with those tactics were morgan, wanyama, lallana, lambert and jay rod (tip of the hat to davis and shaw).. We miss lovren about as much as liverpool do when he isn't in the side.... who would put him above our current 3 best CB's atm? seriously!

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Are there really many on here that think it would be a disaster if we didn't sign him permanently? Agreed it would be great if we did he is clearly a top class player, probably the best player in the club, but how would it be a disaster?

Also, he has player 16 out of the 25 Premier league games since he signed, he missed 3 at the start of the season before he signed for us. So 16 out of 25, is not too shabby. Hardly think he can be classed as injury prone, on the basis of having picked up one injury (which recurred suggesting he came back too soon).

Agree to some extent about CBs playing alongside Jose, but it is clear that Toby is high class, whereas many could see that Lovren was not after his injury and was often helped out by Jose last season. Yoshida is a class act (sadly some still refer back to the days when he played as RB or LB and had nightmare games, played as left sided CB he is terrific). We also have Turnbull and Stephens coming through. I think we might still need to get another CB if Toby doesn't re-sign, until Stephens/Turnbull are ready to step up, but I really don't see any way it would be a disaster to lose Toby. I fully expect him to be elsewhere next season, most probably at Atletico.

 

This^^^^ .....why do you think the club sent out Stephens and Turnbull to get regular game time ???.........would be great if he signed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,if he don't not a disaster in the long and short term

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