New rules regarding non EU players

Further restrictions on signing non EU players to come in force next season. Wanted by the FA, backed by the home office.

Rules regarding what classifies a home grown player to come in and possible more positions in the squad to be filled by HG players. According to reports

Sounds good.

Further restrictions on signing non EU players to come in force next season. Wanted by the FA, backed by the home office.

 

Rules regarding what classifies a home grown player to come in and possible more positions in the squad to be filled by HG players. According to reports

 

Sounds good.

We probably don't have many apart from the kids. Just Morgan I think who qualifies? And he'll probably not be here.

We probably don't have many apart from the kids. Just Morgan I think who qualifies? And he'll probably not be here.

If the newly proposed rules were in effect now Morgan would not qualify as homegrown for us or for England. Of course, since there is no sign that UEFA is going to change their rules, he would still qualify for European purposes.

So will this make our English players even more sought-after?

Any idea what the new rules will actually be? Thought a player already had to be a regular international to sign if they were a non EU?

We've never signed many non EU players and currently I'd have thought it would only be Yoshida, Wanyama, Mane and Mayuka that are on our books who are non EU. Hopefully this won't affect the visa statuses of current players.

Will this mean that world class South Americans & Africans etc will go to La Liga / Serie A / Bundesliga instead of the Premier League?

So will this make our English players even more sought-after?

I believe so.

Any idea what the new rules will actually be? Thought a player already had to be a regular international to sign if they were a non EU?

 

We've never signed many non EU players and currently I'd have thought it would only be Yoshida, Wanyama, Mane and Mayuka that are on our books who are non EU. Hopefully this won't affect the visa statuses of current players.

 

Will this mean that world class South Americans & Africans etc will go to La Liga / Serie A / Bundesliga instead of the Premier League?

That would be my guess.

I assume the rules wouldn't be retroactively applied to current players but who knows. I think all four of the ones you mentioned would still qualify even under the new rules.

However, we also have Ramirez and Gazzaniga--although Football Manager claims Gazzaniga is also Spanish.

Some of our younger players are foreign citizens but, according to Football Manager, they all also eligible to play for England or some other EU country.

Doesn't sound that good to me. We're shopping in minor European leagues a lot more these days, and we have fewer homegrown players now Lallana, Shaw and Chambers have moved on. Clyne and Morgan will likely be off soon as well. It's just the academy graduates left, most of whom aren't yet Premier League quality. I also wonder about exceptions. Would the Premier League deny Messi or Ronaldo the chance to come here? I doubt it. Lesser known players though, the likes of whom we would be in for, would have less chance. They'd argue that we should be able to find a British equivalent of Mane or Pelle.

Doesn't sound that good to me. We're shopping in minor European leagues a lot more these days, and we have fewer homegrown players now Lallana, Shaw and Chambers have moved on. Clyne and Morgan will likely be off soon as well. It's just the academy graduates left, most of whom aren't yet Premier League quality. I also wonder about exceptions. Would the Premier League deny Messi or Ronaldo the chance to come here? I doubt it. Lesser known players though, the likes of whom we would be in for, would have less chance. They'd argue that we should be able to find a British equivalent of Mane or Pelle.

I realise that Ronaldo and Pelle are EU citizens by the way. Was just making a point about quality. We'll never be in for the kind of players for which the league might be willing to bend the rules (it would be great for the brand to get Messi playing in England, but nobody had heard of Mane until we signed him.)

Any idea what the new rules will actually be? Thought a player already had to be a regular international to sign if they were a non EU?

 

We've never signed many non EU players and currently I'd have thought it would only be Yoshida, Wanyama, Mane and Mayuka that are on our books who are non EU. Hopefully this won't affect the visa statuses of current players.

 

Will this mean that world class South Americans & Africans etc will go to La Liga / Serie A / Bundesliga instead of the Premier League?

Plus: Tadic, Djuricic, Gazzaniga and Ramirez.

I realise that Ronaldo and Pelle are EU citizens by the way. Was just making a point about quality. We'll never be in for the kind of players for which the league might be willing to bend the rules (it would be great for the brand to get Messi playing in England, but nobody had heard of Mane until we signed him.)

And Mane's eligibility was iffy under the current rules. He had not played the required percentage of his nations games.

Will this mean that world class South Americans & Africans etc will go to La Liga / Serie A / Bundesliga instead of the Premier League?

Not sure world class players will be affected. It's the average ones that will be. Might make up and coming non EU players harder to get though.

It's this 'exceptional talent' loophole to work permits for non-EU players that is the biggest bunch of nonsense in everything.

Will this mean that world class South Americans & Africans etc will go to La Liga / Serie A / Bundesliga instead of the Premier League?

Why do you think that? The rules are to reduce the lower quality non-EU players joining the Premier League, not the high quality ones.

Load of nonsense IMO. I wonder what evidence is used to suggest that restricting non-EU players will have any tangible positive impact on the nations ability to produce better players? England has and does create very good players, the main failings have come to down to mismanagement and over the top expectations.

England have been **** when there have been very few foreigners in the league and good with many foreigners in the league. Really can't see this benefitting the national team in the long run. If a player is good enough, they typically play regardless of nationality.

And Mane's eligibility was iffy under the current rules. He had not played the required percentage of his nations games.

The FA's original proposals included...

Introducing a transfer fee exemption to deliver GBE for elite players from any country, irrespective of Fifa ranking, if the transfer fee exceeds a minimum indexed figure, initially proposed to be £10m or £15m.

So if fee was set at £10m the likes of Wanyama, Tadic, Mane and Ramirez would qualify on price and their international record wouldn't matter as we paid more than £10m for them.

Rules regarding what classifies a home grown player to come in and possible more positions in the squad to be filled by HG players.

We probably don't have many apart from the kids. Just Morgan I think who qualifies? And he'll probably not be here.

K.Davis

Clyne

Schneiderlin

Long

S.Davis

Rodriguez

Bertrand

Forster

Are the 8 "home grown" players for Saints in Premier League rules.

The FA are proposing the number of Home Grown players rises from 8 to 12 from 2016 to 2020. Plus you need 2 players in the 25 man squad who are club trained (at the club for 3 years before 18th birthday).

was that dyke also saying that 2 bros have to come through ur own academy, or did i misread bout that?

was that dyke also saying that 2 bros have to come through ur own academy, or did i misread bout that?

He did, but that is hardly a problem for us.

Further restrictions on signing non EU players to come in force next season. Wanted by the FA, backed by the home office.

 

Rules regarding what classifies a home grown player to come in and possible more positions in the squad to be filled by HG players. According to reports

 

Sounds good.

The home grown rule will mean the decent academies get raided for their decent players earlier.

Whether further restrictions concerning non EU players will be a good thing for the development of English players has to be seen. But would it make any difference to the average fan if there were more English players in their team? Or does the average English fan not bother at all about where the players are coming from? Over here in Holland most fans are proud when a club succeeds in bringing homegrown talent, especially when this talent comes from the region where the club is settled. Off course there have been many foreigners in our competion too but it's getting less and less, partially because of the salary a non EU player has to earn at least according to EU or Dutch FA rules but also because clubs are realizing that fans can identify themselves more with homegrown talent. And no, it's not a racist thing...

I think anything that helps to cut down the mediocre players clogging up squads and preventing opportunities for young british players is a good thing.

Quotas aren't needed just a change of mentality towards the short term fix !

I think anything that helps to cut down the mediocre players clogging up squads and preventing opportunities for young british players is a good thing.

But that's all completely subjective. How do you determine whether a player is going to be mediocre when they're signed?

The original FA report suggested a £10m transfer fee as a benchmark, but all that does is force clubs to pay £10m for a player who might only be worth £5m, and that's not even getting started on the number of mediocre ageing English players who get contracts at Premier League clubs (most of QPR's squad being a prime example), potentially at the expense of younger players.

How do you determine whether a player is going to be mediocre when they're signed?

I usually just check on here

But that's all completely subjective. How do you determine whether a player is going to be mediocre when they're signed?

 

The original FA report suggested a £10m transfer fee as a benchmark, but all that does is force clubs to pay £10m for a player who might only be worth £5m, and that's not even getting started on the number of mediocre ageing English players who get contracts at Premier League clubs (most of QPR's squad being a prime example), potentially at the expense of younger players.

I think a fee based model doesn't make much sense. What i've read today is of tightening of work permit rules based on international rankings(top 50), which seems reasonable though. I'd also like to see a tough approach regarding reviewing/renewing work permits once they are in.

The FA's original proposals included...

 

 

 

So if fee was set at £10m the likes of Wanyama, Tadic, Mane and Ramirez would qualify on price and their international record wouldn't matter as we paid more than £10m for them.

I didn't see that provision. I am not sure I like it since the last thing the Premier League needs is more rules that favor the rich established clubs and these new rules have that written all over them.

He did, but that is hardly a problem for us.

Sure it is. Under the new rules we have no one who qualifies right now and only Lloyd Isgrove will qualify next year. I realize there is a phase in period but how exactly will we hang onto our Premier League caliber English players when the richer clubs need to buy them from us to meet the new requirements. Sure we can buy some players off the poorer clubs, but they will not be club trained for us.

Also, unless UEFA adopts identical rules it will be a mess and grossly disadvantage English clubs in European competition.

As an American fan of Southampton and, to a lesser extent, the Premier League as a whole, these new rules will be a disaster since I only have a slight interest in the success of the English National team.

The home grown rule will mean the decent academies get raided for their decent players earlier.

Exactly. Of course, we will do some of that raiding ourselves to make up for the players we lose to the richer clubs.

I think a fee based model doesn't make much sense. What i've read today is of tightening of work permit rules based on international rankings(top 50), which seems reasonable though. I'd also like to see a tough approach regarding reviewing/renewing work permits once they are in.

But then you're penalising someone who could be genuinely gifted but just happens to have been born in a country that's got a **** team. Latvia have almost always been crap (apart from 2002-2004), and we needed multiple appeals to the Home Office to get Marian Pahars a work permit. I don't think anybody would argue he wasn't good enough, but we probably wouldn't even have bothered scouting him if the rules were that tight back in 1999.

In theory, players from Japan, Australia and New Zealand would automatically be denied work permits if they did put in a blanket "top 50 only" policy. Someone like Dortmund's Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang wouldn't automatically qualify (despite being a genuinely world-class player), and yet all manner of second-rate Brazilians would be allowed in (as has been the case for years).

There's no easy solution, obviously. I definitely agree that reviews throughout the period of a player's contract should be conducted, although I wonder what sort of dodgy legal grounds clubs could find themselves in if a player has his work permit rescinded but the player refuses to leave the club...

Sure it is. Under the new rules we have no one who qualifies right now and only Lloyd Isgrove will qualify next year. I realize there is a phase in period but how exactly will we hang onto our Premier League caliber English players when the richer clubs need to buy them from us to meet the new requirements. Sure we can buy some players off the poorer clubs, but they will not be club trained for us.

 

Also, unless UEFA adopts identical rules it will be a mess and grossly disadvantage English clubs in European competition.

 

As an American fan of Southampton and, to a lesser extent, the Premier League as a whole, these new rules will be a disaster since I only have a slight interest in the success of the English National team.

K.Davis

Clyne

Schneiderlin

Long

S.Davis

Rodriguez

Bertrand

Forster

Are the 8 "home grown" players for Saints in Premier League rules.

You only need 2 "club trained" players in these rule proposals, if you don't have two over 21 players who are club trained you simply leave space in your 25 man squad and the youth players effectively fill the club trained spot.

But then you're penalising someone who could be genuinely gifted but just happens to have been born in a country that's got a **** team. Latvia have almost always been crap (apart from 2002-2004), and we needed multiple appeals to the Home Office to get Marian Pahars a work permit. I don't think anybody would argue he wasn't good enough, but we probably wouldn't even have bothered scouting him if the rules were that tight back in 1999.

 

In theory, players from Japan, Australia and New Zealand would automatically be denied work permits if they did put in a blanket "top 50 only" policy. Someone like Dortmund's Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang wouldn't automatically qualify (despite being a genuinely world-class player), and yet all manner of second-rate Brazilians would be allowed in (as has been the case for years).

 

There's no easy solution, obviously. I definitely agree that reviews throughout the period of a player's contract should be conducted, although I wonder what sort of dodgy legal grounds clubs could find themselves in if a player has his work permit rescinded but the player refuses to leave the club...

Yeah i do get the issues regarding good players playing for lowly ranked nations.

I assume if the work permit was rescinded, club would still have to pay player and sell/loan them abroad for remainder of contract in next available window.

K.Davis

Clyne

Schneiderlin

Long

S.Davis

Rodriguez

Bertrand

Forster

 

Are the 8 "home grown" players for Saints in Premier League rules.

 

You only need 2 "club trained" players in these rule proposals, if you don't have two over 21 players who are club trained you simply leave space in your 25 man squad and the youth players effectively fill the club trained spot.

I am aware of the identity of our association trained home grown players. See here: http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/01/southamptons-european-roster-issues.html

I am also aware that under the newly proposed rules we would only have two club trained rosters spots to fill. I just believe that we would never be able to fill them because the players who would qualify would be bought away by bigger teams.

These new proposed rules open a lot of questions and create a lot of problems. First, will UEFA changes their homegrown rules to be consistent. If not clubs may have very different rosters for Europe vs. the Premier League. And English clubs would be at a severe disadvantage in European competition. Second, our club trained players who are good enough to play in the Premier League will be very valuable to Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, and Spurs who will want them to fill their need for 10 Association trained players. How will we be able to retain them? Answer, we probably won't but we can fill our need for association trained players by buying from Hull or Sunderland or some other poorer club.

If you increase the demand for something that is in limited supply the price will go up to the point where only a few buyers remain. This will mean that the good English players will all gravitate to the richest clubs. The poorer clubs will be forced to fill their rosters will players who are not good enough because the English roster spots must be filled.

Consider this article : http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11661/9774272/fa-home-grown-rules-bad-news-for-man-city-arsenal-and-chelsea

I have not checked their work but consider what the article says about Man City. They would need six more English players. Possibly one or two of them would come from their academy but most of them would come from us or clubs like us. On the good side, under these rules we probably could have sold Shaw and Lallana for 50 million pounds each. On the other hand, Long would probably have cost us 25 million pounds.

I am also aware that under the newly proposed rules we would only have two club trained rosters spots to fill. I just believe that we would never be able to fill them because the players who would qualify would be bought away by bigger teams.

If you don't have two over 21 players who are club trained you simply leave space in your 25 man squad and the youth players effectively fill the club trained spot.

If you don't have 2 over 21 year old club trained players then you could only register 23 players who are over 21 and then effectively the likes of Ward-Prowse, Reed, Targett etc etc fill in the gap and become the 2 club trained players. Of all the clubs in England we are set up extremely well to cover such a rule.

I have not checked their work but consider what the article says about Man City. They would need six more English players. Possibly one or two of them would come from their academy but most of them would come from us or clubs like us.

No they wouldn't, the rules do not state anything about the home grown players having to be English.

Saints currently 8 home grown players to meet the current rules... 5 are English, 1 is Irish, 1 is Northern Irish and 1 is French.

The 2 club trained players in the rules don't have to be English either.

As a Canadian fan of Southampton and, to a lesser extent, the Premier League as a whole, these new rules will be a disaster since I have no interest in the success of the English National team.

As a Canadian fan of Southampton and, to a lesser extent, the Premier League as a whole, these new rules will be a disaster since I have no interest in the success of the English National team.

If improving the England team is the main motivation (which for the FA's point of view it is, if not the Premier League's) then this is flawed in some respects as the "home grown" quote of 8 (rising to 12 in 2020) and "club trained" quota of 2 don't have to be English.

Why do you think that? The rules are to reduce the lower quality non-EU players joining the Premier League, not the high quality ones.

I hadn't seen what the rules were at the time. Although if they'd missed the required quota of international appearances because of injury then that could hamper a move to England in favour of one to a league with fewer restrictions?

However since we're not in the market for world class players this does have the potential to have a detrimental effect on saints regardless.

Some of the best foreign players we have signed in recent years were not internationals when we bought them, far from it. The likes of Fonte, Spiderman & Pelle were all uncapped and relatively unsought after. Saints have a history of making these under the radar type signings. Although the three mentioned players were from the EU, what if our scouts spotted someone who wasn't? What if we wanted to sign say a young Latvian striker before they'd had any international recognition? Signing established internationals quite often doesn't work out for Saints.

If you don't have two over 21 players who are club trained you simply leave space in your 25 man squad and the youth players effectively fill the club trained spot.

 

If you don't have 2 over 21 year old club trained players then you could only register 23 players who are over 21 and then effectively the likes of Ward-Prowse, Reed, Targett etc etc fill in the gap and become the 2 club trained players. Of all the clubs in England we are set up extremely well to cover such a rule.

 

 

 

No they wouldn't, the rules do not state anything about the home grown players having to be English.

 

Saints currently 8 home grown players to meet the current rules... 5 are English, 1 is Irish, 1 is Northern Irish and 1 is French.

 

The 2 club trained players in the rules don't have to be English either.

But the definition of home grown players also changes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32024808

They'd need to be trained (presumably at a uk club) from the age of 15, down from 18. Which makes it far more likely to be English, or British. So unless there's some agreement in place for Irish players I wouldn't have though Shane Long would count currently or in the new rules. Spiderman wouldn't be included in the new definition either. Even players like Fabregas wouldn't count as he came to England when he was 16?

Meaning that unless the top teams are going to register small squads and pad them out with youth team players who may not be good enough then they'd be even more inclined, forced even to sign the much better English players from the likes of Southampton, West Ham, West Brom etc. I know we already sell our top players, but it might just execrate the process and make it that bit harder to replace them because we can't go out and sign some unknown player from Trinidad or wherever.

If you don't have two over 21 players who are club trained you simply leave space in your 25 man squad and the youth players effectively fill the club trained spot.

 

If you don't have 2 over 21 year old club trained players then you could only register 23 players who are over 21 and then effectively the likes of Ward-Prowse, Reed, Targett etc etc fill in the gap and become the 2 club trained players. Of all the clubs in England we are set up extremely well to cover such a rule.

 

 

 

No they wouldn't, the rules do not state anything about the home grown players having to be English.

 

Saints currently 8 home grown players to meet the current rules... 5 are English, 1 is Irish, 1 is Northern Irish and 1 is French.

 

The 2 club trained players in the rules don't have to be English either.

Except the newly proposed rules change the time to become home grown from when the player turns 21 to 18. This means that Schneiderlin, for example, would not be home grown. For that matter, neither would Shane Long since he was already 18 when he left Cork City for Reading. (Steven Davis is ok since he arrived at Aston Villa at a young enough age.)

As a Canadian fan of Southampton and, to a lesser extent, the Premier League as a whole, these new rules will be a disaster since I have no interest in the success of the English National team.

Canadians are so rude.

If improving the England team is the main motivation (which for the FA's point of view it is, if not the Premier League's) then this is flawed in some respects as the "home grown" quote of 8 (rising to 12 in 2020) and "club trained" quota of 2 don't have to be English.

The change to 18 years old means that virtually all home grown players will be English. You would have to bring in a foreign player when he was 15 to get him to qualify under the new rules. This does not happen often--well maybe it does with Scottish and Northern Irish players.

I hadn't seen what the rules were at the time. Although if they'd missed the required quota of international appearances because of injury then that could hamper a move to England in favour of one to a league with fewer restrictions?

 

However since we're not in the market for world class players this does have the potential to have a detrimental effect on saints regardless.

 

Some of the best foreign players we have signed in recent years were not internationals when we bought them, far from it. The likes of Fonte, Spiderman & Pelle were all uncapped and relatively unsought after. Saints have a history of making these under the radar type signings. Although the three mentioned players were from the EU, what if our scouts spotted someone who wasn't? What if we wanted to sign say a young Latvian striker before they'd had any international recognition? Signing established internationals quite often doesn't work out for Saints.

It doesn't take much imagination to see how this would affect us. Mane had not played enough to qualify under the new rules--although I suspect he has played enough recently to change this. Japan is not in the top 50 so Yoshida would be unable to get a work permit. The same applies to Kenya and Wanyama.

But the definition of home grown players also changes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32024808

 

They'd need to be trained (presumably at a uk club) from the age of 15, down from 18. Which makes it far more likely to be English, or British. So unless there's some agreement in place for Irish players I wouldn't have though Shane Long would count currently or in the new rules. Spiderman wouldn't be included in the new definition either. Even players like Fabregas wouldn't count as he came to England when he was 16?

 

Meaning that unless the top teams are going to register small squads and pad them out with youth team players who may not be good enough then they'd be even more inclined, forced even to sign the much better English players from the likes of Southampton, West Ham, West Brom etc. I know we already sell our top players, but it might just execrate the process and make it that bit harder to replace them because we can't go out and sign some unknown player from Trinidad or wherever.

I agree.

Also, it just occurred to me that this might lead to strange strategies like scouting nations who rank in the 50s to find players would be eligible for work permits if their nation was ranked at 50 or above and then signing them right after their national team wins a couple of games and jumps up past 50.

I agree.

 

Also, it just occurred to me that this might lead to strange strategies like scouting nations who rank in the 50s to find players would be eligible for work permits if their nation was ranked at 50 or above and then signing them right after their national team wins a couple of games and jumps up past 50.

It could also lead to trend where instead of having lots of so called average to mediocre non EU players in the English game we will just have a lot more average to mediocre EU players.

Why do you think that? The rules are to reduce the lower quality non-EU players joining the Premier League, not the high quality ones.

An issue I see with that is it effectively means only the rich clubs will be able to buy non-EU players. Clubs like Saints, with smaller transfer budgets and thus cheaper targets, will find it more difficult. We'll never be in for the likes of Falcao, Sanchez, Messi, etc who would qualify as "high quality ones". The kind of players that teams like Saints go after – e.g. Mane and Wanyama – are more likely to be labeled "low quality". This also introduces a knock-on affect, in that smaller clubs lose a potential revenue stream as it will be harder to buy cheaper foreign talent, develop them, and then sell them on, as Swansea did with Bony.

An issue I see with that is it effectively means only the rich clubs will be able to buy non-EU players. Clubs like Saints, with smaller transfer budgets and thus cheaper targets, will find it more difficult. We'll never be in for the likes of Falcao, Sanchez, Messi, etc who would qualify as "high quality ones". The kind of players that teams like Saints go after – e.g. Mane and Wanyama – are more likely to be labeled "low quality". This also introduces a knock-on affect, in that smaller clubs lose a potential revenue stream as it will be harder to buy cheaper foreign talent, develop them, and then sell them on, as Swansea did with Bony.

Tbh anyone who wasn't "in" for Falcao lucked out, he was **** poor at Monaco and isn't ringing any bells at Utd, he's a player only suited to hispanic dominated leagues. Same as Gaston and Osvaldo.

Plus: Tadic, Djuricic, Gazzaniga and Ramirez.

Djuricic is only on loan, Gazzanigga has an Italian passport.

Are Serbian players treated as EU players for work permit purposes?

Are Serbian players treated as EU players for work permit purposes?

Why would they be, Serbia isn't in the EU neither does it have a free trade agreement with the EU as far as I know.

Tadic and Djuricic both needed work permits. At this time I believe we have 5 players with work permits,maybe even 6 don't know where Victor stands, probably about as many as any other PL side.

Why would they be, Serbia isn't in the EU neither does it have a free trade agreement with the EU as far as I know.

Tadic and Djuricic both needed work permits. At this time I believe we have 5 players with work permits,maybe even 6 don't know where Victor stands, probably about as many as any other PL side.

I didn't know if there was some special rule that would apply because Serbia was in the (very long) process of seeking admission to the EU. Thanks for letting me know.