EU Referendum

It would be interesting to know what actually will be effected.

 

The company I work for deals mainly with China and the US but also Europe, I don't see how wether we are in the EU or not will make the slightest bit of difference. Our clients will still want their products and the factories in China will still want our business.

 

 

In a trade dispute with China that would impact sales of your goods or services, would you rather have the EU negotiating with China or the UK alone?

In a trade dispute with China that would impact sales of your goods or services, would you rather have the EU negotiating with China or the UK alone?

 

What sort of dispute do you mean? We are just a private company dealing with another private company.

Compare and contrast these two posts in terms of quality of argument

 

Not sure its well argued at all, well ranted yes, however I agree with some of the concerns but when you look at the global picture I cannot support our withdrawal. I want to see greater accountability within the EU however the truth is that even in our own democracy (flawed as it is) there are many NGO’s who make decisions that affect all our lives this will not change if we leave the EU. There are other non- democratic international bodies who make rules that are then translated into national legislation, are we to withdraw from these as well? If we left the IMO for example we would not be able to carry out any meaningful trade on the high seas. With respect to borders, we can control them and it is up to us how we do that, not reducing the border force would be a start.

Blaming Europe for the recession in isolation to other Global events is only just one up on blaming the UK Government for the world wide crash. The history of the EU and its predecessors is in the main one of unifying, developing and improving millions and millions of peoples lives, most of the arguments I hear against the EU are short termism and reactionary.

I think the term loyalty has been used inappropriately and unfairly, my desire to stay in Europe is based on my view that of the 2 options it is the best for my country and I am truly scared of what will happen if we withdraw espeicilly if the kippers and their ilk gain any form of power.

In a trade dispute with China that would impact sales of your goods or services, would you rather have the EU negotiating with China or the UK alone?

 

The UK every time.

But we didnt did we, ergo they made the correct decsion.

 

Who made the right decision? Not them, they wanted us in the Euro. The point is well made by Orange that on a matter deemed to be of massive importance by those top politicians and business leaders and amidst the forecasts of doom and gloom from them should we fail to join up to monetary union, they were proved by events to be totally wrong. Therefore, although it is not necessarily the case that they would be wrong on other EU policy matters, their credibility has been badly damaged.

Anti Europeans can deny all they like that foreign investment won't migrate to the rest of Europe, the truth is it will, and we will all suffer.

 

I believe our sucess will be greater in than out, not that we wouldnt have suceess outside the EU.

 

I am truly scared of what will happen if we withdraw

 

You do find this subject very confusing.

The UK every time.

 

 

It was rhetorical question and yet you got it wrong.

You do find this subject very confusing.

 

Seems consistent to me, I do not want to withdraw because: I believe the consequences are undesirable, am scared of the UK suffering and achieving less than we otherwise, would what is confusing. Your problem is you antis need it to be ultra simple as you are relying on a lot of people being stupid and not actually understanding the European Union.

Who made the right decision? Not them, they wanted us in the Euro. The point is well made by Orange that on a matter deemed to be of massive importance by those top politicians and business leaders and amidst the forecasts of doom and gloom from them should we fail to join up to monetary union, they were proved by events to be totally wrong. Therefore, although it is not necessarily the case that they would be wrong on other EU policy matters, their credibility has been badly damaged.

 

No not them us i.e. the Government of the day on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom. Siting individuals for their view in a debate that they lost as tough they had won is a strange way to make your point.

Seems consistent to me, I do not want to withdraw because: I believe the consequences are undesirable, am scared of the UK suffering and achieving less than we otherwise, would what is confusing. Your problem is you antis need it to be ultra simple as you are relying on a lot of people being stupid and not actually understanding the European Union.

Yeah, you think we'll still be successful, but we will all suffer and are truly scared of what will happen, despite us still being successful. Clear as mud you are.

I said less successful, we will survive but I am scared (or if you prefer fearful), I want my country to have the best possible chance of achieving the optimum outcomes for all its citizens and this has the best chance of happening within the EU. Sorry if you struggle with this concept but I assumed most readers were beyond key stage 3.

 

It was rhetorical question and yet you got it wrong.

 

Oh dear. Was I supposed to have answered that I would have preferred the EU to negotiate with China on behalf of a British company?

 

No, apparently I should have realised that it was a rhetorical question and therefore required no answer, especially not one which your opinions indicate isn't the one you wished to hear.

No not them us i.e. the Government of the day on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom. Siting individuals for their view in a debate that they lost as tough they had won is a strange way to make your point.

 

Speaking of key stage 3 as you do later, it is "citing" not "siting" and presumably "though" not "tough." But you're certainly a step up on solentstars.

 

Regarding who had made the right decision, you had not specified that it was the Government, so it was reasonable to infer from your comment that when you said "they", you meant those politicians and businessmen you talked about who had urged us to adopt the Euro or face dire consequences.

 

How you conclude that I inferred that those individuals who lost the debate on the Euro had won anything is a bit bizarre when I clearly said that their credibility had been badly damaged.

 

Your problem is you antis need it to be ultra simple as you are relying on a lot of people being stupid and not actually understanding the European Union.

 

Amazing the parallels between the debates on the General Election and this one on our EU membership. There is a certain viewpoint that a group of individuals consider to be the one that they feel is so incontestably sound, that anybody who disagrees with them is ranting, a bit simple, a Daily Mail/Express reader, a little Englander, etc.

 

It comes across as incredibly arrogant.

Oh dear. Was I supposed to have answered that I would have preferred the EU to negotiate with China on behalf of a British company?

 

No, apparently I should have realised that it was a rhetorical question and therefore required no answer, especially not one which your opinions indicate isn't the one you wished to hear.

 

Well, it would have helped if you'd realised what a trade dispute in this context means. Either that, or you quite fancy arming yourself with a craft knife when your opponent has a dao.

Speaking of key stage 3 as you do later, it is "citing" not "siting" and presumably "though" not "tough." But you're certainly a step up on solentstars.

 

Regarding who had made the right decision, you had not specified that it was the Government, so it was reasonable to infer from your comment that when you said "they", you meant those politicians and businessmen you talked about who had urged us to adopt the Euro or face dire consequences.

 

How you conclude that I inferred that those individuals who lost the debate on the Euro had won anything is a bit bizarre when I clearly said that their credibility had been badly damaged.

 

 

 

Amazing the parallels between the debates on the General Election and this one on our EU membership. There is a certain viewpoint that a group of individuals consider to be the one that they feel is so incontestably sound, that anybody who disagrees with them is ranting, a bit simple, a Daily Mail/Express reader, a little Englander, etc.

 

It comes across as incredibly arrogant.

 

Sorry dyslexia is a pain! I was responding to a comment about the quality of argument / debate, and my experience is that the out campaign is the least informed and most based on myth rather than fact. I am very lucky to work in a business where 70 % staff have a degree that is actually required for the job they do and they have a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world, I have yet to meet one who is in the out camp. While this may appear arrogant or narrow I am only reporting my own experience.

Sorry dyslexia is a pain! I was responding to a comment about the quality of argument / debate, and my experience is that the out campaign is the least informed and most based on myth rather than fact. I am very lucky to work in a business where 70 % staff have a degree that is actually required for the job they do and they have a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world, I have yet to meet one who is in the out camp. While this may appear arrogant or narrow I am only reporting my own experience.

Yep, you're clearly not bothered or concerned about those UK citizens that don't work in your cosy environment all with degrees, that have to compete with the millions of migrants for jobs and housing. Good to see you're alright Jack.

Yep, you're clearly not bothered or concerned about those UK citizens that don't work in your cosy environment all with degrees, that have to compete with the millions of migrants for jobs and housing. Good to see you're alright Jack.

Your so wrong, cosy environment no, a very hard working export earning challenging work place with a dedicated workforce (99% British). I have a son who was in the position you cite and he in the yes camp, he didn't blame migrants he did something about it, took a low paid job and worked hard and moved to a better job, still not well paid but he gets up goes to work and feeds his family. Migrants are in to many instances used as an excuse. I still don't have an answer to my earlier question who will find work for the jobs that we loose when European owned businesses move out. Edited 29 May, 2015 by moonraker

Your so wrong, cosy environment no, a very hard working export earning challenging work place with a dedicated workforce (99% British). I have a son who was in the position you cite and he in the yes camp, he didn't blame migrants he did something about it, took a low paid job and worked hard and moved to a better job, still not well paid but he gets up goes to work and feeds his family. Migrants are in to many instances used as an excuse. I still don't have an answer it my earlier question who will find work for the jobs that we loose when European owned businesses move out.

You still don't even understand the subject. Did your degree teach you the difference between"you're" and "your" by the way?

You still don't even understand the subject. Did your degree teach you the difference between"you're" and "your" by the way?

 

Wrong again I am in the 30 % without a degree, but have worked very hard to achieve a senior position, the odd typo doesn't take anything away from the message, and if all you can contribute is proof reading thats fine by me.

Edited 29 May, 2015 by moonraker

Wrong again I am in the 30 % without a degree, but have worked very hard to achieve senior position, the odd typo doesn't take anything away from the message, and if all you can contribute is proof reading thats fine by me.

 

Well as I have a degree (and a Masters), by your logic my opinion carries more weight than yours. It just comes from having a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world I suppose.

Well as I have a degree (and a Masters), by your logic my opinion carries more weight than yours. It just comes from having a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world I suppose.

 

And they say women are bi t c h y! Jeez!

 

Well as I have a degree (and a Masters), by your logic my opinion carries more weight than yours. It just comes from having a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world I suppose.

That accounts for you good proof reading skills then, what accounts for you're inability to actually debate.

And they say women are bi t c h y! Jeez!

 

That's Moonraker's logical view of the world, not mine

Well, it would have helped if you'd realised what a trade dispute in this context means. Either that, or you quite fancy arming yourself with a craft knife when your opponent has a dao.

 

You still hasn't explained how pulling out of the EU will stop my company from getting stuff made in China and sold in the US and Europe.

You still hasn't explained how pulling out of the EU will stop my company from getting stuff made in China and sold in the US and Europe.

 

Didn't you realise, it's all rhetorical. And if you fall out with them, you'll be fighting the Chinese off when they're armed with sabres and you'll only be wielding a craft knife, apparently. Mind you, the Yanks might side with you and they'll have magnums.

I still don't have an answer to my earlier question who will find work for the jobs that we loose when European owned businesses move out.

 

Maybe this will provide an answer. It might not be the answer you want to hear, but I expect that the person making it cannot be dismissed as being a bit thick like all the others in the No camp. I'm quoting from a Guardian article.

 

 

The free market thinktank, the Institute of Economics Affairs, makes this point in its paper The EU Jobs Myth. Author Ryan Bourne comments:

 

Politicians who continue to claim that 3m jobs are linked to our EU membership should be publicly challenged over misuse of this assertion. Jobs are associated with trade, not membership of a political union, and there is little evidence to suggest that trade would substantially fall between British businesses and European consumers in the event the UK was outside the EU.

 

He also notes the UK labour market is dynamic and so would adjust:

 

It would adapt quickly to changed relationships with the EU. Prior to the financial crisis, the UK saw on average 4m jobs created and 3.7m jobs lost each year – showing how common substantial churn of jobs is at any given time. The annual creation and destruction of jobs is almost exactly the same scale as the estimated 3-4m jobs that are associated with exports to the EU.

"Norway's Foreign Minister Borge Brende says it makes sense for the UK to stay in the European Union, where it "can have more influence" than outside."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32957134

"Norway's Foreign Minister Borge Brende says it makes sense for the UK to stay in the European Union, where it "can have more influence" than outside."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32957134

 

Or " Its quite handy having the UK in the EU as they can be the voice of reason and curb some of the more lunatic schemes that us Norwegians would have to adhere"

 

Frankly, I just dont believe any foreign politician / academic telling us what is best for us as they generally have their own agenda that they are trying to push. In this case I read - it is beneficial for Norway that the UK stays in

Maybe this will provide an answer. It might not be the answer you want to hear, but I expect that the person making it cannot be dismissed as being a bit thick like all the others in the No camp. I'm quoting from a Guardian article.

 

 

The free market thinktank, the Institute of Economics Affairs, makes this point in its paper The EU Jobs Myth. Author Ryan Bourne comments:

 

That would be the determinedly Thatcherite, avowedly anti-EU, tobacco-industry-funded 'free market think tank', would it?

 

Trustworthy and objective are two words I'd advise you not to associate with this little outfit.

That would be the determinedly Thatcherite, avowedly anti-EU, tobacco-industry-funded 'free market think tank', would it?

 

Trustworthy and objective are two words I'd advise you not to associate with this little outfit.

 

Led by Mark Littlewood who was a lib/dumb , but more importantly is a Saints fan . He is more trustworthy and objective than clowns like Little Owen Jones and ken Clarke .

Led by Mark Littlewood who was a lib/dumb , but more importantly is a Saints fan . He is more trustworthy and objective than clowns like Little Owen Jones and ken Clarke .

 

Yeah, I know about Littlewood. He's hardly a Lib Dem now - way out on the loopy libertarian loons outer orbit, somewhere near your neighbourhood in fact.

That would be the determinedly Thatcherite, avowedly anti-EU, tobacco-industry-funded 'free market think tank', would it?

 

Trustworthy and objective are two words I'd advise you not to associate with this little outfit.

 

Advice ignored, because coming from you, I don't perceive it to be trustworthy or objective. You abide by your economics opinions expressed by those you respect and I'll abide by those that I do. As it's all opinions as to what may come to pass should we leave, there is no definitively correct answer, just conjecture.

Edited 1 June, 2015 by Wes Tender

Advice ignored, because coming from you, I don't perceive it to be trustworthy or objective. You abide by your economics opinions expressed by those you respect and I'll abide by those that I do. As it's all opinions as to what may come to pass should we leave, there is no definitively correct answer, just conjecture.

 

So you don't live in the real world then? You don't think such views are testable against the actual outcomes? Or is your fantasy worldview only possible because deep down you don't believe there's a cat in hell's chance of there being a No vote? (On that, at least, you'd be right.)

 

And you don't think it's a problem, or even relevant, that the funding for the IEA is from such fundamentally immoral sources as the tobacco industry?

 

It's one thing to want your pre-1850s view of capitalism and world trade confirmed by those with similarly quaintly antique views; quite another to put so much faith in someone who doesn't even qualify as a proper economist and whose organisation is so obviously biddable.

 

So try harder, Lord Tender. Find a source that helps nudge you into the 20th century - at least for the sake of a decent argument. Because this is like debating with a long-forgotten descendant of Lord Decimus Tite Barnacle, in whose company everything goes round in circles.

So you don't live in the real world then? You don't think such views are testable against the actual outcomes? Or is your fantasy worldview only possible because deep down you don't believe there's a cat in hell's chance of there being a No vote? (On that, at least, you'd be right.)

 

And you don't think it's a problem, or even relevant, that the funding for the IEA is from such fundamentally immoral sources as the tobacco industry?

 

It's one thing to want your pre-1850s view of capitalism and world trade confirmed by those with similarly quaintly antique views; quite another to put so much faith in someone who doesn't even qualify as a proper economist and whose organisation is so obviously biddable.

 

So try harder, Lord Tender. Find a source that helps nudge you into the 20th century - at least for the sake of a decent argument. Because this is like debating with a long-forgotten descendant of Lord Decimus Tite Barnacle, in whose company everything goes round in circles.

 

Usual arrogant leftie sneeering. Of course the views aren't testable before the event. Not even somebody who thinks they are as clever as you think you are knows for certain what the repercussions to our trade would be if we left the EU. And just to put you right, I've already explained that I would vote to leave only if we don't get the concessions the government are after. I believe that is the real world, the one that a substantial proportion of the electorate live in.

UKIP in a bit of turmoil. There have been internal rumblings about Nige before but seems to me this could be the beginning of the end for him as party leader. Thats no bad thing imo, I find people like Susanne Evans and Raheem Kassam more palateable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33202900

Its a Micky mouse party and always has been and if it disappeared tomorrow I don't think it would be missed.only good thing its done is destroy the racist party's like the BNP,Britain first from getting major support.

Its a Micky mouse party and always has been and if it disappeared tomorrow I don't think it would be missed.only good thing its done is destroy the racist party's like the BNP,Britain first from getting major support.

 

Why do you think it is a Mickey Mouse party?

Why do you think it is a Mickey Mouse party?

Oh come on all the misfits who have been kicked out,their EU mps who are lining there pockets in brussels,one of them who got kicked out joining the French front national racist block recently and a leader who resigns and then unresigned 2 days later. What a bunch of clowns

Oh come on all the misfits who have been kicked out,their EU mps who are lining there pockets in brussels,one of them who got kicked out joining the French front national racist block recently and a leader who resigns and then unresigned 2 days later. What a bunch of clowns

 

 

Which of these are UKIP ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/8776160/Expenses-MPs-and-their-sentences-how-long-each-served.html

Which of these are UKIP ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/8776160/Expenses-MPs-and-their-sentences-how-long-each-served.html

Don't know why you posted that,you asked why I think ukip are a bunch of clowns and I told you,unless you think they are so professional that's your option. Can't see the point of them now we have a referendum.

Don't know why you posted that,you asked why I think ukip are a bunch of clowns and I told you,unless you think they are so professional that's your option. Can't see the point of them now we have a referendum.

 

The fairly obvious point is that all the political parties have bad sorts in them, by your reckoning that makes them all Mickey Mouse.

 

Interesting that you didn't mention anything in terms of policy though.

Edited 19 June, 2015 by Sour Mash