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The Mane Conondrum


Lallana's Left Peg
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Mane has fast become our most effective forward player. His ability to beat a man (either through skill or nipping in ahead of the defender to nick the ball away) creates a lot of problems for the opposition and he has proved that he can provide as well as score. By playing in a more central position he gets on the ball more and by virtue of his starting position can be more dangerous. However, when he plays there he needs to play off the striker and that changes our shape - we go 4-4-1-1 when we're not playing three at the back. And when we go 4-4-1-1 that creates a bit of a problem in midfield - we don't really have any natural players wide in a midfield four and in previous games we've had Tadic and Davis there. With them unavailable, I don't even know who else could play there.

 

So the simple question is this: Would you play Mane central off Pelle or Jay Rod to get the best out of him but sacrifice the effectiveness of the rest of the team (or rather, the personnel that play in somewhat unnatural positions because of it) or would you play Mane wide which means the rest of our players 'fit' the system better?

 

Of course, you can argue that Mane is just as effective wide, but I am not sure Koeman sees it that way now.

 

EDIT: Of course, I mean conundrum!

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Mane has fast become our most effective forward player. His ability to beat a man (either through skill or nipping in ahead of the defender to nick the ball away) creates a lot of problems for the opposition and he has proved that he can provide as well as score. By playing in a more central position he gets on the ball more and by virtue of his starting position can be more dangerous. However, when he plays there he needs to play off the striker and that changes our shape - we go 4-4-1-1 when we're not playing three at the back. And when we go 4-4-1-1 that creates a bit of a problem in midfield - we don't really have any natural players wide in a midfield four and in previous games we've had Tadic and Davis there. With them unavailable, I don't even know who else could play there.

 

So the simple question is this: Would you play Mane central off Pelle or Jay Rod to get the best out of him but sacrifice the effectiveness of the rest of the team (or rather, the personnel that play in somewhat unnatural positions because of it) or would you play Mane wide which means the rest of our players 'fit' the system better?

 

Of course, you can argue that Mane is just as effective wide, but I am not sure Koeman sees it that way now.

 

EDIT: Of course, I mean conundrum!

 

You are overly concerned with formations...we play in positions on the pitch with no set system so Mane can play anywhere during the game as the team understands how to fill vacant positions

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You are overly concerned with formations...we play in positions on the pitch with no set system so Mane can play anywhere during the game as the team understands how to fill vacant positions

 

Whilst fluid formations and playing 'between the lines' are all very important aspects of modern football, we certainly do continue to play systems and work on patterns of play all of which are born out of formations and tactical structure. Mane may drift about but he will always have a starting position and a set of responsibilities both with and without the ball - the question is whether we play in a way to get him the ball more often but sacrifice other parts of our team.

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Whilst fluid formations and playing 'between the lines' are all very important aspects of modern football' date=' we certainly do continue to play systems and work on patterns of play all of which are born out of formations and tactical structure. Mane may drift about but he will always have a starting position and a set of responsibilities both with and without the ball - the question is whether we play in a way to get him the ball more often but sacrifice other parts of our team.[/quote']

Yes, they all have responsibilities but they vary... Irrespective, Mane is our key offensive player and must have a free role to be most effective. That is what Koeman has decided based on pre-season games as he is unmarkable playing across the pitch just behind the striker.

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Mane, Mane, Sadio Mane

Mane, Mane, Sadio Mane

And when he dribbles with the ball

He's gonna run past all of you

Oh oh oh

Mane, Mane, Sadio Mane

 

And you'll be the ones who are gonna suffer

And you'll be the ones who are gonna suffer

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Yes, they all have responsibilities but they vary... Irrespective, Mane is our key offensive player and must have a free role to be most effective. That is what Koeman has decided based on pre-season games as he is unmarkable playing across the pitch just behind the striker.
He doesn't have a free role, he's played in certain positions. You're wrong on this I'm afraid.
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Whenever I see a thread about Sadio, I can't help but think back to this...

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?52647-Mane#.Vb5Pu3h-_q0

 

:lol:

 

We can only go on the evidence available at the time, and for quite a while he was pretty poor. I'm man enough to admit he's proved me wrong, but I stand by what I thought of him at that time. I don't go in for hindsight and second guessing.

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I think he's more effective playing through the middle.

 

Merrington is always banging on about this being his most effective position......

 

And then some....it's like 80 minutes of every Solent commentary, these days, is Dave pointing out that Mane is more effective down the middle than on the wing as if no one else but Dave has realised this.

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He wasn't. He started well and then had a couple of iffy games and loads went bat**** mental about it.

 

If I recall, he had a couple of decent games to begin with and was then less than useless til he decided he was Ronaldo after Christmas (or whenever it was).

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Mane has fast become our most effective forward player. His ability to beat a man (either through skill or nipping in ahead of the defender to nick the ball away) creates a lot of problems for the opposition and he has proved that he can provide as well as score. By playing in a more central position he gets on the ball more and by virtue of his starting position can be more dangerous. However, when he plays there he needs to play off the striker and that changes our shape - we go 4-4-1-1 when we're not playing three at the back. And when we go 4-4-1-1 that creates a bit of a problem in midfield - we don't really have any natural players wide in a midfield four and in previous games we've had Tadic and Davis there. With them unavailable, I don't even know who else could play there.

 

So the simple question is this: Would you play Mane central off Pelle or Jay Rod to get the best out of him but sacrifice the effectiveness of the rest of the team (or rather, the personnel that play in somewhat unnatural positions because of it) or would you play Mane wide which means the rest of our players 'fit' the system better?

 

Of course, you can argue that Mane is just as effective wide, but I am not sure Koeman sees it that way now.

 

EDIT: Of course, I mean conundrum!

 

I'd argue that we continue to play 4-2-3-1 with Mane in the middle so there's no conundrum. MLG will give you some crap about 4-3-3, but I haven't seen it yet and I've been looking out for it.

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We play 1-4-2-3-1. Mane sits behind Pelle.

 

We never play 1-4-1-4-1.

 

By the way there's no system 4-2-3-1. Why because there's a goalkeeper.

 

When talking about system the GK must be included. We play with 11

 

Yep, you're right, every formation discussion ever has been wrong. :facepalm:

 

The 1 is a constant and until keepers start playing up front, people will know not to be stupid enough to bother listing them in formations, because THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE AND DON'T REALLY MOVE MUCH.

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We play 1-4-2-3-1. Mane sits behind Pelle.

 

We never play 1-4-1-4-1.

 

By the way there's no system 4-2-3-1. Why because there's a goalkeeper.

 

When talking about system the GK must be included. We play with 11

 

Ever heard of people taking things for granted?

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I'd argue that we continue to play 4-2-3-1 with Mane in the middle so there's no conundrum. MLG will give you some crap about 4-3-3, but I haven't seen it yet and I've been looking out for it.

 

I think the formation is different when Mane plays as the 'one' behind the striker to the point he is a forward who plays off Pelle and the wide players start wider, but it is a 4-2-3-1 when it is JWP or Davis behind Pelle as they play deeper and the wide players play further forward in support. My impression from watching us is that Mane plays further forward and doesn't drop as deep, whereas JWP and Davis most definitely do.

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Can't believe people haven't figured this out yet? Mane is the new Matt Le Tissier! And before you all jump on my back, just remember how long it took Matt to establish himself. Yes, Mane needs to to stop diving, and "grow up" in the intelligence / mind games side of football, but if coached right he will come very close to our very own Matty :-)

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I think the formation is different when Mane plays as the 'one' behind the striker to the point he is a forward who plays off Pelle and the wide players start wider' date=' but it is a 4-2-3-1 when it is JWP or Davis behind Pelle as they play deeper and the wide players play further forward in support. My impression from watching us is that Mane plays further forward and doesn't drop as deep, whereas JWP and Davis most definitely do.[/quote']

 

That's fair enough, but it still isn't f00king 4-3-3 no matter how much MLG will screw up FM16 claiming it is. I appreciate my point is not much of a discussion with you. :D

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When Davis/JWP play, we arguably play a 4-3-2-1 with the two out wide....just saying like.

 

We either play with 1 holding DM when we're more attack minded or 2, but there's never a 3 in that defensive position so it's never a x-3-x-x or a x-3-x-x-x. The 3 are always split across at least 2 lines in the midfield.

 

They're either a 1 DM-2 CM (with the 2 sometimes part of a wider midfield [so 4-1-x-x]) or the more usual 2 DM-3 AM with the 2 DMs and 3 AMs (one of which might be a more attacking Mane, but even if he's up with Pelle it's either 4-2-2-1-1 or 4-2-2-2, but not 4-3-3).

 

There are obviously nuances and formations are too dynamic for the categorisations to be fully effective any more, (I mean our FBs are hardly really part of a 4 to begin with) but I am absolutely not having that "you just pile the DM in with the other midfielders" when at least one of them is clearly more advanced and in a different role.

Edited by The9
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Whenever I see a thread about Sadio, I can't help but think back to this...

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?52647-Mane#.Vb5Pu3h-_q0

 

:lol:

 

That thread was started on the back of three losses in a row - We had just lost to Man Utd. Days after that we lost to Burnley, and then we lost to Sheffield United. It wasn't a good time for anyone.

 

I was at that Sheffield United game, and Mane, for whatever reason, looked clueless. On a evening of all round disappointing performances, he was bloody rubbish.

 

You can't deny there was a time he was playing massively below-par. I'm glad he got his act together and came good.

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That thread was started on the back of three losses in a row - We had just lost to Man Utd. Days after that we lost to Burnley, and then we lost to Sheffield United. It wasn't a good time for anyone.

 

I was at that Sheffield United game, and Mane, for whatever reason, looked clueless. On a evening of all round disappointing performances, he was bloody rubbish.

 

You can't deny there was a time he was playing massively below-par. I'm glad he got his act together and came good.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that he or the team were doing well at this point but the hyperbole around Mane from some on here was ridiculous. Comparisons with Ali Dia and questions over whether he can actually kick a ball for example. This completely ignored the fact that he had already played well for us in games prior to this period, has already been a top player at a European side and was already a full International.

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We either play with 1 holding DM when we're more attack minded or 2, but there's never a 3 in that defensive position so it's never a x-3-x-x or a x-3-x-x-x. The 3 are always split across at least 2 lines in the midfield.

 

They're either a 1 DM-2 CM (with the 2 sometimes part of a wider midfield [so 4-1-x-x]) or the more usual 2 DM-3 AM with the 2 DMs and 3 AMs (one of which might be a more attacking Mane, but even if he's up with Pelle it's either 4-2-2-1-1 or 4-2-2-2, but not 4-3-3).

 

There are obviously nuances and formations are too dynamic for the categorisations to be fully effective any more, (I mean our FBs are hardly really part of a 4 to begin with) but I am absolutely not having that "you just pile the DM in with the other midfielders" when at least one of them is clearly more advanced and in a different role.

Hmmm...

 

Maybe more of a 4-1-2-2-1 then ?

 

or is it a 1-4-1-2-2-1?

 

I need a lie down.

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