Sunderland v Saints. Build-up Thread

 

We have the players to beat them, I am starting to think that maybe we are playing with less intensity at the beggining of the season, so we have more left at the end, and Leicester will end up like us last year limping towards the line come April and May.

Hmm, that is a shout. As good as that 8-0, and other wins where we played at full intensity for 90 minutes, maybe grinding out 1-0/2-0 wins are better in the long run.

It's about results to me more than a performance.

Hmm, that is a shout. As good as that 8-0, and other wins where we played at full intensity for 90 minutes, maybe grinding out 1-0/2-0 wins are better in the long run.

It's about results to me more than a performance.

I don't think we could have been much more efficient than we were last season with our core defensive performances, the problems were consecutive injuries and suspensions to Wanyama and Schneiderlin for the last couple of months of the season leaving us below par in midfield. It could possibly have been the usual "I'm off" malaise spreading through the squad who inevitably know when someone is planning on leaving before the media or management do - makes it hard to feel you should give 100% for the cause when others are planning on jumping ship and aren't.

Sunderland,like a couple of other clubs below us are there for the taking but we HAVE to take them.I'm pretty certain RK has had some very strong words with our players and explained that a match lasts at least 90 minutes and we must play for that length of time. A repeat of last week,although we won,is just not good enough.

Note from the Teacher. We can,and will,do better.

COYS

Allardyce will get them back to basics and they will play percentage balls and seek to unsettle us a bit. Quite frankly if we can't rise above that and show some quality we'll end up pointless. I'd say it's 50/50 whether or not we bring any points back home.

Sunderland,like a couple of other clubs below us are there for the taking but we HAVE to take them.I'm pretty certain RK has had some very strong words with our players and explained that a match lasts at least 90 minutes and we must play for that length of time. A repeat of last week,although we won,is just not good enough.

Note from the Teacher. We can,and will,do better.

COYS

The only thing I'd say about this is that Koeman spoke to the team at Half Time against Bournemouth, as well as having plenty of chance to review the United and Leicester games. I daresay that the players also know the game lasts 90 minutes. It's more likely that:

1) There was a warning about 'playing for 90', but the players weren't up to it - possibly physically but mostly mentally, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

2) The was a change in tactics to ensure we kept it tight and won, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

So if 1, then regardless of Koeman's lecturing, it won't make any difference. If 2, then it's Koeman's fault in the first place!

The only thing I'd say about this is that Koeman spoke to the team at Half Time against Bournemouth, as well as having plenty of chance to review the United and Leicester games. I daresay that the players also know the game lasts 90 minutes. It's more likely that:

 

1) There was a warning about 'playing for 90', but the players weren't up to it - possibly physically but mostly mentally, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

 

2) The was a change in tactics to ensure we kept it tight and won, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

 

So if 1, then regardless of Koeman's lecturing, it won't make any difference. If 2, then it's Koeman's fault in the first place!

Given what was said after the match I doubt very much as if it was a tactical move to sit back. Fonte said it was a mental thing and he is right. They thought they had the match sown up and when Bournemouth set about them they did not respond. They had done the same in a number of games. Remember against United? After a very bright start they eventually stood off and gave the game away. It was only at the end when they woke up again but by then it was too late.

The only thing I'd say about this is that Koeman spoke to the team at Half Time against Bournemouth, as well as having plenty of chance to review the United and Leicester games. I daresay that the players also know the game lasts 90 minutes. It's more likely that:

 

1) There was a warning about 'playing for 90', but the players weren't up to it - possibly physically but mostly mentally, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

 

2) The was a change in tactics to ensure we kept it tight and won, so they sat back and lost control of the game.

 

So if 1, then regardless of Koeman's lecturing, it won't make any difference. If 2, then it's Koeman's fault in the first place!

The only change of personnel was Yoshida on for Fonte, which is a big loss but given how little the centre backs had to do first half was probably expected to be routine. Difficult to say that changed the overall mindset of the side.

2) only happened AFTER the team showed they weren't at the same levels - Romeu was brought on to help absorb the pressure (and based on his midweek performance against Villa, try and put some pace and movement into our midfield passing, though that didn't happen).

I suspect there are only so many times you can tell a group of people winning 2-0 to treat the game as 0-0 before you have to find other motivational techniques. Obviously as it was a second successive home 2-0 lead drop off (arguably third with the League Cup game, and we also slipped back from 3-0 against Swansea late on) the players may not have reacted as well in the second half as they did, for example, in the 3-0 win against Norwich.

Having said that, it's still a good position to be in to begin with and as long as we're getting ahead I'm fairly sure we're managing the situation within ourselves most of the time.

Given what was said after the match I doubt very much as if it was a tactical move to sit back. Fonte said it was a mental thing and he is right. They thought they had the match sown up and when Bournemouth set about them they did not respond. They had done the same in a number of games. Remember against United? After a very bright start they eventually stood off and gave the game away. It was only at the end when they woke up again but by then it was too late.

Yep, once you hand the initiative to the other team it's very difficult to get it back. We may well have wanted to not be so defensive, but because Bournemouth (and United) were controlling the game we couldn't change it. It's why people say 2-0 can be a dangerous scoreline (even though on the face of it, it seems a ridiculous assertion...!)

I don't think against United it was 'waking up again' - at 2-2 they are dominating and we are thinking "hold on for a point", then once they score we no longer had anything to lose, and equally United stopped pressing and attacking as they had been doing.

I don't think against United it was 'waking up again' - at 2-2 they are dominating and we are thinking "hold on for a point", then once they score we no longer had anything to lose, and equally United stopped pressing and attacking as they had been doing.

We were 1-0 up then 3-1 down against Man U before scoring late.

We were 1-0 up then 3-1 down against Man U before scoring late.

So we were, my bad, I think the pattern of play was so similar against Bournemouth that I've sort of merged the two...

Means my theory falls down a bit doesn't it?! Although I could still argue that United going two goals up meant they relaxed and gave us a chance to get back into it.

Maybe we should stop trying to hit Pelle so often once we're comfortably ahead and the opposition are trying to raise their game? Putting the ball in the air to be contested is always risking possession, and it only takes Pelle's levels to drop a little for the CBs to start winning more than they lose. Obviously this isn't the only issue, as we were weak and slow to the second ball in the second half of both games, but fewer high balls to Pelle would create fewer second balls too.

So we were, my bad, I think the pattern of play was so similar against Bournemouth that I've sort of merged the two...

 

Means my theory falls down a bit doesn't it?! Although I could still argue that United going two goals up meant they relaxed and gave us a chance to get back into it.

The pattern was the same, just that we were only 1 goal up. we backed off and let Man U back in the game. They were desperately bad that day but we managed to encourage them so much that they were able to score 3 times (IIRC they were their only shots on target). The only difference with United was that we suddenly woke up with a few minutes left and managed to sneak a goal that mad the score look better.

Maybe we should stop trying to hit Pelle so often once we're comfortably ahead and the opposition are trying to raise their game? Putting the ball in the air to be contested is always risking possession, and it only takes Pelle's levels to drop a little for the CBs to start winning more than they lose. Obviously this isn't the only issue, as we were weak and slow to the second ball in the second half of both games, but fewer high balls to Pelle would create fewer second balls too.

I agree with you but there are a few things that will mean that we'll continue to hit Pelle long once we're comfortably ahead and defending a lead:

1. As much as footballers are trained it's still human nature to hit it up to the big man.

2. It feels these days with Saints (and I suppose with football in general) that you are more likely to concede a goal the moment you lose possession rather than if you cleared your lines and got up the field a bit (but still organised). Thus if we (when under pressure) were to try and play our way out of defence and move up the field as a team and then lose the ball I would suggest that leaves us more vulnerable to concede than if we just cleared our lines knowing the ball was going to come back at us again.

3. We don't really have the defensive midfielders to either a) beat a man when we have the ball to carry it upfield, or b) be enough of a 'midfield general' and stitch the play together to move the team up the field. Therefore without the personnel the risk of losing possession becomes even higher.

4. The midfield has been sitting really deep when defending leads recently, I don't know why but it basically means no-one is there to go and meet second balls in midfield anyway when we do get it clear.

Fabio Borini, Ola Toivonen, Younes Kaboul and John O'Shea are all in contention for Saturday's clash against Southampton, but Lee Cattermole has been ruled out.

The quartet of Borini (ankle), O'Shea (hamstring), Toivonen and Kaboul (both groin) missed last weekend's defeat at Everton through injury after none were able to play a part in training.

But all four trained at the Stadium of Light today and could return for this weekend's visit of Southampton, as Sunderland bid for a second successive home victory.

However, midfielder Cattermole will miss out after he was forced off against Everton with a groin problem which had been troubling him for several weeks.

Fabio Borini, Ola Toivonen, Younes Kaboul and John O'Shea are all in contention for Saturday's clash against Southampton, but Lee Cattermole has been ruled out.

 

The quartet of Borini (ankle), O'Shea (hamstring), Toivonen and Kaboul (both groin) missed last weekend's defeat at Everton through injury after none were able to play a part in training.

 

But all four trained at the Stadium of Light today and could return for this weekend's visit of Southampton, as Sunderland bid for a second successive home victory.

 

However, midfielder Cattermole will miss out after he was forced off against Everton with a groin problem which had been troubling him for several weeks.

Well, Kaboul and O'Shea will improve them - which is in itself an indictment of how crap they are. Ditto re: losing Cattermole weakening them.

Mane, Tadic, Pelle, Davis - and back 5 - are all playing so well I'd be tempted not to change it.

Only question is therefore Who do we partner in Midfield. Romeu/Clasie? If we don't play Romeu, it'll be Wanyama instead. I'm tempted to take the risk with Romeu starting, even though he's not necessarily had that much gametime over past few weeks, just because I think Vic needs a rest/refresh in midfield, and I really like what I've seen of Romeu thus far.

Probably team:

--------------Stek---------------

Cedric--Fonte--VVD--Bertrand

---Wanyama (Romeu if not)---

--------Davis-----Clasie--------

--Mane-----Pelle-------Tadic---

P.S. can I just say how satisfying it is to have 7/8 players that are automatic on the teamsheet. Especially back 5. I think quite a few teams (including in the 'big clubs') still are playing around a lot with their best 5 at the back. It's really nice that we've got a pretty much settled and chosen 5 that we don't need to argue about.

Mane, Tadic, Pelle, Davis - and back 5 - are all playing so well I'd be tempted not to change it.

 

Only question is therefore Who do we partner in Midfield. Romeu/Clasie? If we don't play Romeu, it'll be Wanyama instead.

 

Probably team:

 

--------------Stek---------------

Cedric--Fonte--VVD--Bertrand

---Wanyama (Romeu if not)---

--------Davis-----Clasie--------

--Mane-----Pelle-------Tadic---

 

P.S. can I just say how satisfying it is to have 7/8 players that are automatic on the teamsheet. Especially back 5. I think quite a few teams (including in the 'big clubs') still are playing around a lot with their best 5 at the back. It's really nice that we've got a pretty much settled and chosen 5 that we don't need to argue about.

Wanyama is suspended after being sent off vs Bournemouth, so it is a case of who replaces him out of Ward-Prowse and Romeu.

Wanyama is suspended after being sent off vs Bournemouth, so it is a case of who replaces him out of Ward-Prowse and Romeu.

Well if we were going like for like then it's no question it's Romeu...

..yep, and sub him if he gets booked..

Well if we were going like for like then it's no question it's Romeu...

Ronald just said we don't have a player like Vic, so we can't go like for like (but I would expect he will be picked).

At least now it is very unlikely that they can be suspended for the same game.

Wanyama is suspended after being sent off vs Bournemouth, so it is a case of who replaces him out of Ward-Prowse and Romeu.

sorry - totally right. forgot that red

also long is still out.

Romeu has to come in for Wanyama, especially in an away game against an Allardyce team who have just been thrashed.

A midfield of Clasie, JWP and Davis is too lightweight.

Romeu has to come in for Wanyama, especially in an away game against an Allardyce team who have just been thrashed.

 

A midfield of Clasie, JWP and Davis is too lightweight.

Also, Romeu may be slow, but Clasie aside, he's as good a passer as we've got in central midfield - would definitely start him ahead of JWP or Davis in that anchor position (though on current form, the latter will surely continue as the AM anyway).

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

**** it, I'd take the risk.

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

------------------------------------Pelle

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

 

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

 

**** it, I'd take the risk.

 

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

 

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

 

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

 

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

 

------------------------------------Pelle

 

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

 

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

This time won't be played and quite rightly.

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

 

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

 

**** it, I'd take the risk.

 

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

 

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

 

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

 

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

 

------------------------------------Pelle

 

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

 

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

We're playing Sunderland not City how much defending are you expecting to do?

Did some moany pessimistic words on playing Sunderland away...

http://georgeweahscousin.com/malice-in-sunder-land/

Did some moany pessimistic words on playing Sunderland away...

 

http://georgeweahscousin.com/malice-in-sunder-land/

I don't like moany pessimistic words, Chris.

But they are very apt when it comes to Sunderland away.

Romeu has to come in for Wanyama, especially in an away game against an Allardyce team who have just been thrashed.

 

A midfield of Clasie, JWP and Davis is too lightweight.

This - bring JWP on with 30 mins to go. If needed

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

 

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

 

**** it, I'd take the risk.

 

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

 

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

 

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

 

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

 

------------------------------------Pelle

 

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

 

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

That team is mental. Five defenders, a young player that has barely featured and dropping a natural midfield fit, for a team in the bottom five with no confidence and a recent change in manager...

Personally I'd go as others have said but with JWP in the middle.

I have a feeling we'll have a lot of space there due to allardyce's usual tactics of looking over the top or down the wings and last time we played in a similar set up JWP had his best game for us.

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I'd like to see.....

------------------------Stekelenburg

Cedric-------------Fonte---------------VVD-------------Bertand

-------------------Clasie-------------Romeu---------------------

Mane---------------------Davis---------------------------JWP

---------------------------Pelle------------------------------------

Harsh on Tadic but really fancy us at Set Pieces at the moment.

I'd like to see.....

 

------------------------Stekelenburg

 

Cedric-------------Fonte---------------VVD-------------Bertand

 

-------------------Clasie-------------Romeu---------------------

 

Mane---------------------Davis---------------------------JWP

 

---------------------------Pelle------------------------------------

 

Harsh on Tadic but really fancy us at Set Pieces at the moment.

In which case I'd probably drop Davis, put JWP on the right, Mané in the #10 and Tadic wide left. I don't think there's any real creativity in that side, especially if they sit deep and don't allow Mané space to run in to.

Really hard to believe that some people are seriously suggesting dropping Davis, after his recent run of form (or even regardless of that, just that he is key to our game). He is nailed on to be a starter in this one.

Can't really see anything other than a straight swap of Vic for Romeu, assuming everyone is fit. I do think we will see Reed on the bench though.

Allardyce will get them back to basics and they will play percentage balls and seek to unsettle us a bit. Quite frankly if we can't rise above that and show some quality we'll end up pointless. I'd say it's 50/50 whether or not we bring any points back home.

Sunderland have only won once this season, against a poor Newcastle team with help from the ref. We're unbeaten away. Given that, I certainly wouldn't have Sunderland as evens for the win. The bookies agree with me and will give you good odds, so if I were you I'd chuck a few quid on the Mackems winning.

Gaston is nowhere to be seen on the training pics. Injured again?

The team picks itself on the last performance, just Romeu in for Vic.

Ginger stepson treatment again please.

Gaston is nowhere to be seen on the training pics. Injured again?

He was told to wear this yellow inflatable at training and he was not happy,

Heard a photo is floating around on Twitter somewhere.

Can see Big Sam putting a team out that will harass and bully with the intention of drawing cards out of the ref for our lads. However, if we can get Mane and Tadic the ball enough then they will terrorise their weak defence. If they set up with a flat 5 across midfield then expect loads of long balls hit to Pelle to go over the top and this will play right into their hands. To be honest, the track record at Sunderland provides a good indication of where this is going... 1-0 to them.

Can see Big Sam putting a team out that will harass and bully with the intention of drawing cards out of the ref for our lads. However, if we can get Mane and Tadic the ball enough then they will terrorise their weak defence. If they set up with a flat 5 across midfield then expect loads of long balls hit to Pelle to go over the top and this will play right into their hands. To be honest, the track record at Sunderland provides a good indication of where this is going... 1-0 to them.

Our track record at stamford bridge was not too good either so I dont see why we can't win this one.

In which case I'd probably drop Davis, put JWP on the right, Mané in the #10 and Tadic wide left. I don't think there's any real creativity in that side, especially if they sit deep and don't allow Mané space to run in to.

Davis has been one of our best players of late. Not a chance he'll be dropped.

I'd like to see.....

 

------------------------Stekelenburg

 

Cedric-------------Fonte---------------VVD-------------Bertand

 

-------------------Clasie-------------Romeu---------------------

 

Mane---------------------Davis---------------------------JWP

 

---------------------------Pelle------------------------------------

 

Harsh on Tadic but really fancy us at Set Pieces at the moment.

Have you really dropped tadic for jwp? Haha. Jwp hasn't done anything to merit selection. He's not good enough.

Certainly wouldn't be dropping Tadic or Davis to shoehorn in JWP out of position.

You have to earn a first team spot, especially if its at the expense of a player having an excellent season who in the case of Tadic has two quality assists in the last two games and a clearly effective partnership with your no1 striker.

Stek

Cedric

Fonte

VVD

Bertrand

Romeu

Clasie

Davis

Mane

Pelle

Tadic

Team picks itself really, only question would be be between Clasie and JWP.

The only chance JWP has of getting in the starting 11 is if Ronald thinks he would be a better replacement for Victor than Romeau which I think is unlikely. No way should we be dropping a inform Davis or Tadic who are providing assists and goals right now just so JWP can take a couple of corners.

Stek

 

Cedric

Fonte

VVD

Bertrand

 

Romeu

Clasie

Davis

 

Mane

Pelle

Tadic

 

Team picks itself really, only question would be be between Clasie and JWP.

I think Ronald has big plans for Claise so I expect he will start every game he is fit. That leaves JWP and Romeau battling it out to be Victor's replacement tomorrow IMO.

Personally think JWP will be a better player than Clasie, also would prefer JWP to be playing most weeks, or he'll be off. Club needs to show it'll prioritise youth products if the standard between the player is very little IMO.

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

 

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

 

**** it, I'd take the risk.

 

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

 

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

 

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

 

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

 

------------------------------------Pelle

 

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

 

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

Sometimes I do wonder if you're actually watching the matches. If there's a player guaranteed to get a booking early and pointlessly based on previous appearances it's Reed, who is clearly out of favour and around 6th choice at the moment and not even been near the bench. When we were beating Chelsea, he was about 10 yards from me in the front row of the upper tier of the away end.

Jesus, I hadn't even noticed you'd picked Yoshida.

The only chance JWP has of getting in the starting 11 is if Ronald thinks he would be a better replacement for Victor than Romeau which I think is unlikely. No way should we be dropping a inform Davis or Tadic who are providing assists and goals right now just so JWP can take a couple of corners.

JWP chance has got to be to eventually nab davis' spot in the team. Don't see him covering for Vic this weekend as Romeu is the defensive mid cover.

For right now he's just got to be patient and try and make an impact when he's brought on.

Harrison Reed, not Romeu for me. Romeu will probably play though, pick up a booking in the first twenty minutes for being a slow-motion Schneiderlin and then get subbed off for JWP at half-time. Reed done a brilliant job at Toon last year and I reckon him, Clasie and van Dijk could pretty much dominate that midfield.

 

That said, that would mean we would have to start Yoshida alongside Fonte.

 

**** it, I'd take the risk.

 

---------------------------------Stekelenburg

 

-Bertrand---------------Fonte-------------------Yoshida---------------Cedric

 

-------------------Clasie------------van Dijk-----------Reed

 

-Tadic-------------------------------------------------------------------Mane

 

------------------------------------Pelle

 

Subs; Davis, Caulker, S Davis, JWP, Romeu, Juanmi, Ramirez.

 

(assuming Rodriguez, Long aren't fit)

Against the defensive threat of sunderland who shipped 6 goals to everton last week , this is a hopeless setup. Why would you even consider playing van dijk in midfield, instead of Davis, With Yoshida at CB ?

In any case.

I reckon cedric is more of a right back and bertrand a left back

JWP chance has got to be to eventually nab davis' spot in the team. Don't see him covering for Vic this weekend as Romeu is the defensive mid cover.

For right now he's just got to be patient and try and make an impact when he's brought on.

He doesn't have the attacking instincts to play that position IMO apart from in games where you just want to sit back and are happy to reduce your level of attacking threat.

Not creative enough in his movement, touches or passing.