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Jeremy Hunt and the demonisation of the NHS


Sheaf Saint

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So the health secretary has carried out his threat to the BMA and pressed the nuclear button with regards to the junior doctor's contracts...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

 

It's hardly a surprise is it. The fact that they tried to introduce the Trade Union Bill should make it obvious to all just how much contempt this Conservative government has for workers' rights. It seems they will go to great lengths to undermine the NHS and portray it as a bungling, inefficient organisation, in order to gain public support for its plans to carve it up and privatise it. Even Thatcher, with her insatiable thirst for privatiastion, didn't dare touch the NHS.

 

With the junior doctors' contracts issue, on the one hand we have a Conservative minister with no direct experience in the healthcare industry telling us these contracts will increase patient safety, and on the other hand we have the BMA and the junior doctors themselves claiming the extra hours they are being asked to work will actually have the opposite effect.

 

So who do you believe? The people on the front-line, who know exactly what problems the new contracts will cause, and those who represent them? Or a Conservative MP, with direct financial links to private healthcare companies, who has been proven to have deliberately misrepresented research relating to the issue in order to gain support for his proposals?

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Let's not try and pretend that all unions are the same. This particular strike has overwhelming public support and is the first time they have felt the need to strike in absolutely ages. Compare this to other more militant unions who strike at the drop of a hat and who are never happy to compromise and the two barely compare. I've listened to the doctors' arguments and I think they make a lot of sense. Good luck to them.

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Putting the party political mud slinging, and the social media bandwagon hatred of Jeremy Hunt, to one side for one moment (yeah, I know, I know.... this is the SaintsWeb forum and all that.....) but what is actually unfair or unreasonable about the new contract?

 

I'm not asking that question because I've read through it and come to my own conclusion. I'm asking precisely because I haven't read through it (at all, let alone in any detail). All I've got to go on in order to form an opinion, one way or the other, is what I've read in the press and heard on TV etc.

 

Is there anyone here that's gone through it in some detail and still come to the conclusion that it is unfair or unreasonable? If so, what parts of it?

 

Here's what Hunt said in his statement to the House of Commons earlier:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/jeremy-hunt-updates-parliament-on-the-junior-doctors-contract

 

Mr Speaker, nearly 3 years ago to the day the government first sat down with the British Medical Association (BMA) to negotiate on a new contract for junior doctors. Both sides agreed that the current arrangements, drawn up in 1999, were not fit for purpose and that the system of paying for unsocial hours in particular was unfair.

 

Under the existing contract doctors can receive the same pay for working quite different amounts of unsocial hours; doctors not working nights can be paid the same as those who do; and if 1 doctor works just 1 hour over the maximum shift length it can trigger a 66% pay rise for all doctors on that rota.

 

Despite the patent unfairness of the contract, progress in reforming it has been slow, with the BMA walking away from discussions without notice before the general election. Following the election, which the government won with a clear manifesto commitment to a 7-day NHS, the BMA Junior Doctors Committee refused point blank to discuss reforms, instead choosing to ballot for industrial action. Talks did finally start with the ACAS process in November but since then we have had 2 damaging strikes with around 6,000 operations cancelled.

 

In January I asked Sir David Dalton, Chief Executive of Salford Royal, to lead the negotiating team. Under his outstanding leadership, for which the whole House will be immensely grateful, progress has been made on almost 100 different points of discussion, with agreement secured with the BMA on approximately 90% of them. Sadly, despite this progress and willingness from the government to be flexible on the issue of Saturday pay, Sir David wrote to me yesterday advising that a negotiated solution is not realistically possible.

 

Along with other senior NHS leaders and supported by NHS Employers, NHS England, NHS Improvement, the NHS Confederation and NHS Providers, he has asked me to end the uncertainty for the service by proceeding with the introduction of a new contract that he and his colleagues consider both safer for patients and fair and reasonable for junior doctors. I have therefore today decided to do that.

 

Tired doctors risk patient safety, so in the new contract the maximum number of hours that can be worked in 1 week will be reduced from 91 to 72; the maximum number of consecutive nights will be reduced from 7 to 4; the maximum number of consecutive long days will be reduced from 7 to 5; and no doctor will ever be rostered on consecutive weekends. Sir David Dalton believes these changes will bring substantial improvements both to patient safety and doctor wellbeing.

 

We will also introduce a new Guardian role within every Trust, who will have the authority to impose fines for breaches to agreed working hours based on excess hours worked. These fines will be invested in educational resources and facilities for trainees.

 

The new contract will give additional pay to those working Saturday evenings from 5pm, nights from 9pm to 7am, and all day on Sunday. Plain time hours will now be extended from 7am to 5pm on Saturdays. However, I said the government was willing to be flexible on Saturday premium pay and we have been: those working 1 in 4 or more Saturdays will receive a pay premium of 30%, that is higher on average than that available to nurses, midwives, paramedics and most other clinical staff. It is also a higher premium than that available to fire officers, police officers or those in many other walks of life.

 

Nonetheless it does represent a reduction compared to current rates, necessary to ensure hospitals can afford additional weekend rostering. So because we do not want take home pay to go down for junior doctors, after updated modelling I can tell the House these changes will allow an increase in basic salary of not 11% as previously thought but 13.5%. Three-quarters of doctors will see a take home pay rise and no trainee working within contracted hours will have their pay cut.

 

Mr Speaker, our strong preference was for a negotiated solution. Our door remained open for 3 years, and we demonstrated time and again our willingness to negotiate with the BMA on the concerns that they raised. However, the definition of a negotiation is a discussion where both sides demonstrate flexibility and compromise on their original objectives, and the BMA ultimately proved unwilling to do this.

 

In such a situation any government must do what is right for both patients and doctors. We have now had 8 independent studies in the last 5 years identifying higher mortality rates at weekends as a key challenge to be addressed. Six of those say staffing levels are a factor that needs to be investigated. Professor Sir Bruce Keogh describes the status quo as ‘an avoidable weekend effect which if addressed could save lives’ and has set out the 10 clinical standards necessary to remedy this. Today we are taking one important step necessary to make this possible.

 

While I understand that this process has generated considerable dismay among junior doctors, I believe that the new contract we are introducing - shaped by Sir David Dalton, and with over 90% of the measures agreed by the BMA through negotiation - is one that in time can command the confidence of both the workforce and their employers.

 

I do believe, however, that the process of negotiation has uncovered some wider and more deep-seated issues relating to junior doctors’ morale, wellbeing and quality of life which need to be addressed.

 

These issues include inflexibility around leave, lack of notice about placements that can be a long way away from home, separation from spouses and families, and sometimes inadequate support from employers, professional bodies and senior clinicians. I have therefore asked Professor Dame Sue Bailey, President of the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, alongside other senior clinicians to lead a review into measures outside the contract that can be taken to improve the morale of the junior doctor workforce. Further details of this review will be set out soon.

 

Mr Speaker, no government or health secretary could responsibly ignore the evidence that hospital mortality rates are higher at the weekend, or the overwhelming consensus that the standard of weekend services is too low, with insufficient senior clinical decision-makers. The lessons of Mid Staffs, Morecambe Bay, and Basildon in the last decade is that patients suffer when governments drag their feet on high hospital mortality rates – and this government is determined our NHS should offer the safest, highest quality care in the world.

 

We have committed an extra £10billion to the NHS this Parliament, but with that extra funding must come reform to deliver safer services across all 7 days. That is not just about changing doctors’ contracts: we will also need better weekend support services such as physiotherapy, pharmacy and diagnostic scans; better 7-day social care services to facilitate weekend discharging; and better primary care access to help tackle avoidable weekend admissions. Today we are taking a decisive step forward to help deliver our manifesto commitment, and I commend this statement to the House.

 

If we take that statement at face value (again, yes I know that's a dangerous presumption whenever politicians are involved), what is Hunt saying that is (a) incorrect and (b) unfair or unreasonable?

 

As I say, this is a genuine question to those on here that are closer to the detail than I am. (my wife and sister-in-law both work in the NHS so I have some insight into internal affairs but neither have had much direct exposure to the Junior Doctor contract proposals)

 

I'm open to persuasion that Hunt is doing something horrendously wrong here, but equally open to the possibility that this could just be the BMA agitating for an anti-Tory fight.

 

Yours open-mindedly....

 

p.s. even James Blunt hates him... #gamechanger

 

James Blunt @JamesBlunt

I'm officially handing over my Cockney Rhyming title to @Jeremy_Hunt

Edited by trousers
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This week Jeremy Hunt was exposed as a liar.

His position is untenable, any comments he makes now should be treated with great caution.

 

I cannot see how anyone could consider that he has either done a good job here, or not tried to mislead the public.

 

As our air strikes create the next generation of terrorists, Jeremy Hunt and David Cameron are inspiring future Red Wedge tours with their blatant efforts to force private healthcare into the mainstream, steamrolling NHS staff and the vulnerable to make that pathway.

 

And if you are from the extreme right, don't bother to troll me as I don't debate with people who are beyond sensible thought. :)

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Putting the party political mud slinging, and the social media bandwagon hatred of Jeremy Hunt, to one side for one moment (yeah, I know, I know.... this is the SaintsWeb forum and all that.....) but what is actually unfair or unreasonable about the new contract?

 

I admit I haven't followed the dispute closely. However from what I understand Hunt wants to increase the amount of weekend working by junior doctors whilst paying them slightly less as an overall package than they get at the moment - so they would be working more unsocial hours for less money. The driver for this is the supposed excess death rate at the weekends - but this has been debunked. People who were already in hospital dont have a higher death rate only those who are admitted. Hunt says this shows you need more junior doctors at work at the weekends but analysis of the numbers show the rates are inflated by the fact that largely only emergencies are admitted at weekends compared with a mix of emergencies and electives during the week - ie weekend admissions are sicker.

 

So work more unsocial hours for less money because of a flawed rationale seems to be it.

Edited by buctootim
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I admit I haven't followed the dispute closely. However from what I understand Hunt wants to increase the amount of weekend working by junior doctors whilst paying them slightly less as an overall package than they get at the moment - so they would be working more unsocial hours for less money.

 

According to my Mrs who works in NHS they are being offered a higher basic salary , but reducing premium payments for working unsocial hours . It's something that's happened in the private sector , I believe Tesco & B&Q are doing the exact same thing now . You obviously can't compare working in retail with being a doctor , but it's about money plain & simple . If Hunt doubled their money , their patient safety concerns would soon disappear .

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the payments for working unsociable hours (and they fact they may have to more often) will impact on them doing additional work for agencies and earning £100-£150 per hour or what ever it is

 

which is nicely left out from any doctors on telly when interviewed

Edited by Batman
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From a post on FB today

Rich Bowman6 hrs · Birmingham, United Kingdom ·

 

Last night I was the sole doctor on site caring for over 100 patients who were acutely unwell with complications from their cancer. Some couldn't breath, some were fighting overwhelming infections with literally no immune system, one had bleeding in their head, one had a blockage in their bowels. If I made a mistake because I was tired, any one of these patients could've died.

Every cancer patient in the south birmingham region has a direct line to call for advice or help. 11 new unwell patients arrived and I assessed and treated them too.

There was not a single manager in the whole hospital. Last night, I ran the oncology service for the whole south birmingham region from inside the biggest teaching hospital in Europe.

Apparently I have no transferable skills to find a different job.

And then I stood on a picket line in the cold to save our NHS. But my shift wasn't during the strike, it was just what countless other junior doctors do everyday.

I am 27 years old. I work 60 hours a week, for the 48 that I'm paid for, I earn £18/hour.

Apparently I lack vocation, I'm overpaid and I need to work harder.

Screw you Jeremy Hunt. We never asked for thanks. All we do is for our patients, how dare you try and turn them against us. All of this is your government's fault. Well you've picked a fight with the wrong crowd.

Go on, announce imposition, and just see what the most resilient, driven, passionate, intelligent group of people in Britain do next. Bring it on.

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the payments for working unsociable hours (and they fact they may have to more often) will impact on them doing additional work for agencies and earning £100-£150 per hour or what ever it is

 

which is nicely left out from any doctors on telly when interviewed

 

What do you think guys? Should we throw him to the junior doctors?

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From a post on FB today

Rich Bowman6 hrs · Birmingham, United Kingdom ·

 

Last night I was the sole doctor on site caring for over 100 patients who were acutely unwell with complications from their cancer. Some couldn't breath, some were fighting overwhelming infections with literally no immune system, one had bleeding in their head, one had a blockage in their bowels. If I made a mistake because I was tired, any one of these patients could've died.

Every cancer patient in the south birmingham region has a direct line to call for advice or help. 11 new unwell patients arrived and I assessed and treated them too.

There was not a single manager in the whole hospital. Last night, I ran the oncology service for the whole south birmingham region from inside the biggest teaching hospital in Europe.

Apparently I have no transferable skills to find a different job.

And then I stood on a picket line in the cold to save our NHS. But my shift wasn't during the strike, it was just what countless other junior doctors do everyday.

I am 27 years old. I work 60 hours a week, for the 48 that I'm paid for, I earn £18/hour.

Apparently I lack vocation, I'm overpaid and I need to work harder.

Screw you Jeremy Hunt. We never asked for thanks. All we do is for our patients, how dare you try and turn them against us. All of this is your government's fault. Well you've picked a fight with the wrong crowd.

Go on, announce imposition, and just see what the most resilient, driven, passionate, intelligent group of people in Britain do next. Bring it on.

 

That's 44k a year, not bad for a 27 year old. Yes, you need to get qualified and go through the effort but to suggest that doctors, even junior ones are poorly paid is crazy. The 60 hours a week, on the flip side, madness for such a safety critical role.

 

This is a tricky issue, there are understandable points of view on all sides.... Hence things breaking down.

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1/ the lack Vocation quote the BMA supporters keep on pulling out is bull. the actual quote

 

He said it was "not a war against consultants" and that "many medical directors" and professional bodies "want that sense of vocation and professionalism brought back into the contract".

 

he said the contract lacked vocation not the junior doctors

 

2/ I keep on hearing the ludicrous notion that with doctors working the weekend, the NHS will be stretched for the rest of the week. How on earth can this be the case? The same number of Doctors, will be treating the same number of patients.

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That's 44k a year, not bad for a 27 year old. Yes, you need to get qualified and go through the effort but to suggest that doctors, even junior ones are poorly paid is crazy. The 60 hours a week, on the flip side, madness for such a safety critical role.

 

This is a tricky issue, there are understandable points of view on all sides.... Hence things breaking down.

 

I haven't heard a single person suggest they are. People who choose to go into medicine deserve every penny they earn IMO. This isn't about the money though, it's about the imposition of longer working hours for people who already do too many, for no extra or even less pay, by a man who co-authored a publication calling for the abolition of the NHS.

 

This is all part of the master plan to under-fund, undermine and destroy the NHS as we know it, so that the idea of privatisation can be sold to the public much more easily.

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I haven't heard a single person suggest they are. People who choose to go into medicine deserve every penny they earn IMO. This isn't about the money though, it's about the imposition of longer working hours for people who already do too many, for no extra or even less pay, by a man who co-authored a publication calling for the abolition of the NHS.

 

This is all part of the master plan to under-fund, undermine and destroy the NHS as we know it, so that the idea of privatisation can be sold to the public much more easily.

 

you missed this bit

 

"Tired doctors risk patient safety, so in the new contract the maximum number of hours that can be worked in 1 week will be reduced from 91 to 72; the maximum number of consecutive nights will be reduced from 7 to 4; the maximum number of consecutive long days will be reduced from 7 to 5; and no doctor will ever be rostered on consecutive weekends. Sir David Dalton believes these changes will bring substantial improvements both to patient safety and doctor wellbeing."

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I haven't heard a single person suggest they are. People who choose to go into medicine deserve every penny they earn IMO. This isn't about the money though, it's about the imposition of longer working hours for people who already do too many, for no extra or even less pay, by a man who co-authored a publication calling for the abolition of the NHS.

 

This is all part of the master plan to under-fund, undermine and destroy the NHS as we know it, so that the idea of privatisation can be sold to the public much more easily.

 

By adjusting remuneration and working hours?

 

I'm a dyed in the wool tory and even I would object to a privatised NHS. It's such an ingrained left wing organisation that there is no way it'll ever happen, no surprise that when a government with a different slant is in power there are loggerheads.

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Amazing what you turn up when reading about the NHS. George Osbourne's brother has been struck off as a psychiatrist for sleeping with a vulnerable patient. The best part is that in he married a muslim, converted and changed his name to Mohammed and in 2010 was warned for dodgy prescriptions to a crack addicted prostitute. Colourful family!

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/11/george-osborne-brother-adam-struck-off-psychiatrist-affair-with-patient-medical-tribunal

Edited by buctootim
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you missed this bit

 

"Tired doctors risk patient safety, so in the new contract the maximum number of hours that can be worked in 1 week will be reduced from 91 to 72; the maximum number of consecutive nights will be reduced from 7 to 4; the maximum number of consecutive long days will be reduced from 7 to 5; and no doctor will ever be rostered on consecutive weekends. Sir David Dalton believes these changes will bring substantial improvements both to patient safety and doctor wellbeing."

 

On the flip-side...

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-doctors-strike-patient-safety/22458

 

And from the comments section...

 

I am a junior doctor, and we are not being misleading when we say that we are already stretched thin in providing a ‘truly’ 5 day NHS service and an excellent 24/7 emergency service. If, as the government wants, the same number of doctors that provide the current service, are to provide a ‘truly’ 7day service, the we would undoubtedly be stretched even more, thus jeopardising patient care. This is undeniable. The government are spinning the statistics even with the reduction in hours. The reality is, currently NHS trusts are heavily penalised when doctors for excessive hours AND the doctors were paid to do so. They are reducing the ‘maximal hours’ granted, but are taking away both the financial penalty and the the renumeration of the doctor. The result will be hospitals rostering doctors for longer, and paying them less. Unsafe, and unfair.
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What did he lie about? (Again, genuine question as haven't been following events closely enough)

 

He consistently, and deliberately, misquotes and distorts the statistics relating to weekend death rates.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-misled-parliament-over-6645957

 

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2016/02/10/paul-taylor/jeremy-hunts-way-with-statistics/

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He consistently, and deliberately, misquotes and distorts the statistics relating to weekend death rates.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-misled-parliament-over-6645957

 

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2016/02/10/paul-taylor/jeremy-hunts-way-with-statistics/

Any source material to corroborate this? (Other than agenda driven blogs and Daily Mirror articles?). Cheers

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A doctor on the radio the other day explained quite clearly why there is a higher percentage of deaths at the weekend. Something to do with the type of cases admitted, if you go in for a minor op it will more likely be during the week yet it is mainly emergencies at weekend where the person is more ****ed up. The fact that Hunt still bangs on about means you can only assume he's lying about everything else.

 

Doctors get paid a lot but they are doing what is probably THE most important job so I would be against any move to make them work more for less. Especially when we are letting companies like Google off paying their fair share of tax.

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Any source material to corroborate this? (Other than agenda driven blogs and Daily Mirror articles?). Cheers

I think there is something about Hunt including Friday and Monday as being "the weekend" which is possibly stretching the truth rather.

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Any source material to corroborate this? (Other than agenda driven blogs and Daily Mirror articles?). Cheers

 

Daily Fail ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3267947/Jeremy-Hunt-conning-NHS-broke-crippled-fear-hospital-chiefs-astonishing-outburst-bombshell-letter-Government.html

 

Daily Express ?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/617266/Jeremy-Hunt-weekend-effect-ill-patients-not-going-hospital

 

( Note: the Express is running an online petition in support of the junior doctors )

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A doctor on the radio the other day explained quite clearly why there is a higher percentage of deaths at the weekend. Something to do with the type of cases admitted, if you go in for a minor op it will more likely be during the week yet it is mainly emergencies at weekend where the person is more ****ed up. The fact that Hunt still bangs on about means you can only assume he's lying about everything else.

 

It certainly seems like a sensible decision to have enough doctors on duty when there is a higher chance of people dying. The big question for me though, is why should that be junior doctors? I'm assuming that if patients are much 'worse' when admitted at the weekends then surely it would make sense to have the most senior / experienced doctors - and other care staff - on duty?

 

I'm not really sure where I stand on this issue. Of course I agree that Junior doctors shouldn't be 'mugged off' and shouldn't be made to work excessive hours. We have laws in place to stop lorry drivers from driving when they are tired as the tiredness is likely to cause accidents and kill people, yet we don't have similar laws in place to stop junior doctors from working when they are tired [i still think 70 odd hours per week is too much!]. On the issue of evening / weekend / unsocial hours, I don't have a great deal of sympathy. All doctors know the hours before they even sign on for medical school so this should come as no surprise to them that they will be working these hours. I also think that junior doctors get paid pretty well for the work they do. There's also the fact that junior doctors will eventually become 'senior' doctors where the pay and benefits get a lot better.....

 

One thing's for sure, the picket lines are way more civilised when the Junior doctors are on them!! I've never heard such eloquent 'chanting'!

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Few I suppose really want to work on Saturdays if they can help it - I certainly don't. But I can't be the only person on here to have noticed that your average local NHS hospital comes pretty damn close to resembling a abandoned ''ghost town'' during the weekends.

 

The thing you need to remember about the medical profession is that they are both a extremely conservative (small c) bunch in the main and one of the last bastions of union power too. Unlike many other comparable groups this profession has managed to avoid serious reform so far because it skilfully plays on the public's natural sympathy towards those who help them so in their hour of (medical) need. Our politicians well understand, and indeed fear, that widespread sensibility.

 

However, that perfectly understandable feeling can only go so far methinks and the need for reform seems clear enough given the published stats re weekend mortality. Needless to say our Doctors perform a vital role in society of course and few would question their sense of duty or commitment. However, they are also well paid professionals at the end of the day who enjoy a enviable level of job security, career progression and a level of pension security in old age that many other British workers can now only dream of. In return all for that it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to ask that the NHS should not become a truly modern 24/7 operation does it?

 

Remember if the government of the day hadn't faced up to ''doctor power'' in the past then the NHS - as we know it - wouldn't even exist anyway.

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Few I suppose really want to work on Saturdays if they can help it - I certainly don't. But I can't be the only person on here to have noticed that your average local NHS hospital comes pretty damn close to resembling a abandoned ''ghost town'' during the weekends.

 

The thing you need to remember about the medical profession is that they are both a extremely conservative (small c) bunch in the main and one of the last bastions of union power too. Unlike many other comparable groups this profession has managed to avoid serious reform so far because it skilfully plays on the public's natural sympathy towards those who help them so in their hour of (medical) need. Our politicians well understand, and indeed fear, that widespread sensibility.

 

However, that perfectly understandable feeling can only go so far methinks and the need for reform seems clear enough given the published stats re weekend mortality. Needless to say our Doctors perform a vital role in society of course and few would question their sense of duty or commitment. However, they are also well paid professionals at the end of the day who enjoy a enviable level of job security, career progression and a level of pension security in old age that many other British workers can now only dream of. In return all for that it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to ask that the NHS should not become a truly modern 24/7 operation does it?

 

Remember if the government of the day hadn't faced up to ''doctor power'' in the past then the NHS - as we know it - wouldn't even exist anyway.

 

No, I quite agree CEC. But if somebody came to you in whatever organisation you work for, and told you that you needed to shift from a 5-day operation to a 7-day operation, with no extra funding and the same number of employees, how exactly would you respond to that? I seriously doubt you would shrug your shoulders and say "oh well, I'm pretty well paid as it is, so I'll just get on with it" would you?

 

If Hunt wants the NHS to be a truly 24/7 organisation, then it needs extra funding and extra staff. End of. You don't even need any business training or experience to work that one out. But the funding and staffing levels have dropped dramatically since the Tories came to power in 2010, and with them still in power it is only going to go one way.

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Few I suppose really want to work on Saturdays if they can help it - I certainly don't. But I can't be the only person on here to have noticed that your average local NHS hospital comes pretty damn close to resembling a abandoned ''ghost town'' during the weekends.

 

The thing you need to remember about the medical profession is that they are both a extremely conservative (small c) bunch in the main and one of the last bastions of union power too. Unlike many other comparable groups this profession has managed to avoid serious reform so far because it skilfully plays on the public's natural sympathy towards those who help them so in their hour of (medical) need. Our politicians well understand, and indeed fear, that widespread sensibility.

 

However, that perfectly understandable feeling can only go so far methinks and the need for reform seems clear enough given the published stats re weekend mortality. Needless to say our Doctors perform a vital role in society of course and few would question their sense of duty or commitment. However, they are also well paid professionals at the end of the day who enjoy a enviable level of job security, career progression and a level of pension security in old age that many other British workers can now only dream of. In return all for that it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to ask that the NHS should not become a truly modern 24/7 operation does it?

 

Remember if the government of the day hadn't faced up to ''doctor power'' in the past then the NHS - as we know it - wouldn't even exist anyway.

 

The managers are tasked with making sure the hospital operates smoothly and cost effectively, the doctors are tasked with patient care. The problem tbh is that managers dont know enough about the medical or surgical details to know for sure when doctors tell you something cant be done for patient safety reasons whether they really mean it, or its because they dont want to do it.

Edited by buctootim
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It certainly seems like a sensible decision to have enough doctors on duty when there is a higher chance of people dying. The big question for me though, is why should that be junior doctors? I'm assuming that if patients are much 'worse' when admitted at the weekends then surely it would make sense to have the most senior / experienced doctors - and other care staff - on duty?

 

I'm not really sure where I stand on this issue. Of course I agree that Junior doctors shouldn't be 'mugged off' and shouldn't be made to work excessive hours. We have laws in place to stop lorry drivers from driving when they are tired as the tiredness is likely to cause accidents and kill people, yet we don't have similar laws in place to stop junior doctors from working when they are tired [i still think 70 odd hours per week is too much!]. On the issue of evening / weekend / unsocial hours, I don't have a great deal of sympathy. All doctors know the hours before they even sign on for medical school so this should come as no surprise to them that they will be working these hours. I also think that junior doctors get paid pretty well for the work they do. There's also the fact that junior doctors will eventually become 'senior' doctors where the pay and benefits get a lot better.....

 

One thing's for sure, the picket lines are way more civilised when the Junior doctors are on them!! I've never heard such eloquent 'chanting'!

 

Firstly, I think Jnr Doctor is just a job title, not how old/experienced they are.

 

About the weekend deaths, I don't think it's a case of at the weekend there is more serious cases, just that during the week there is the same amount of serious cases plus those less serious which make the percentage of deaths less - it's just the Tories trying to confuse people with stats. You will still need more doctors in when there are more patients in.

 

I guess at the moment if you go into hospital to get your in-growing toenail sorted it will be midweek, the Tories want to change it so you can get it done at the weekend but for that convenience the only way we can afford it is to pay the doctors less during unsociable hours. I can see why the doctors think this will endanger lives because it is the same amount of staff spread more thinly for the convenience of people who don't want to book a day off work.

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https://fullfact.org/health/clash-manifestos-nhs-staffing/

 

Not really in relation to staffing, but it seems as though there are questions as to whether the increase in numbers has kept pace with increases in demands and population during the same time.

when the population increases to the size of AT LEAST Southampton every calendar year. Never ever going to keep up with that

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Is that true?

 

Depends how you measure things. Total spend in real terms is very slightly up, spend as a % of GDP is slightly down. The real problem is increasing demand year after year, mainly because people are living longer but the number of healthy years they are alive isnt increasing - so you have more sick old people to look after. Therefore the amount of money available per patient has declined significantly.

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All fair points, but the reality is that neither the funding nor the staffing levels have declined at all, never mind significantly, since the Tories came to power. They have both increased.

 

If labour really does want to have a go at the Tories, pick a proper soft target. There are plenty of them out there.

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All fair points, but the reality is that neither the funding nor the staffing levels have declined at all, never mind significantly, since the Tories came to power. They have both increased.

 

If labour really does want to have a go at the Tories, pick a proper soft target. There are plenty of them out there.

 

Really? So how come 7000 staff were made redundant between 2010 and 2013 then?...

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/31/nhs-staff-laid-off-amid-savings-drive

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I dunno, do you? Maybe this will help

 

 

The government has met its pledge to cut management costs and ‘rebalance’ its workforce. Total NHS staff numbers have increased marginally since 2010. There have been large reductions in managerial staff, mostly in central, regional and commissioning bodies. Consultant, GP and nurse numbers have increased...

 

7,000 redundancies over 5 years in an organisation the size of the NHS is a drop in the ocean. You do know what a redundancy is, don't you? You can't make a person redundant, it's the position that becomes redundant.

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when the population increases to the size of AT LEAST Southampton every calendar year. Never ever going to keep up with that

 

That is a good point that is often missed. Southampton has two major hospitals, 32 GP Practices and 90 schools, not to mention the housing, which are not being built around the country every 12 months to keep up. It is a simplistic measure, but is worth considering.

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Really? So how come 7000 staff were made redundant between 2010 and 2013 then?...

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/31/nhs-staff-laid-off-amid-savings-drive

 

 

That is not the whole picture though is it?

 

... the number of NHS staff went up by 23,527 between 2013 & 2014. There are now 126,832 more NHS staff employed, than there were in 2004.

 

SOURCE: http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB16973/nhs-staf-2004-2014-over-rep.pdf

 

Edited by Johnny Bognor
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2/ I keep on hearing the ludicrous notion that with doctors working the weekend, the NHS will be stretched for the rest of the week. How on earth can this be the case? The same number of Doctors, will be treating the same number of patients.

won't there be more total patient in hospital bed hours in the long run if more people are kept alive by the better staffing at the weekends?
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god knows what is the right answer, the NHS is heading on a path that means it will collapse I guess.

The spending v the huge increases in population means something big has to change

 

trouble is, anyone goes near it and attempts any form of change, they get absolutely slaughtered.

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god knows what is the right answer, the NHS is heading on a path that means it will collapse I guess.

The spending v the huge increases in population means something big has to change

 

trouble is, anyone goes near it and attempts any form of change, they get absolutely slaughtered.

 

I think it depends on what changes are proposed. If the people who work in the NHS think they wont work why not criticise the proposals?

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