Can we be a 'top club'?

Being recognised as one of the top clubs is by no means an easy task. It has been achieved by a few and is the ambition of many others. Even though Leicester brilliantly bucked the trend this season, and Saints finished on the fringe in 6th place, the usual clubs are still all around, even though the sequence changes from year to year. As a reminder of which teams we are talking about, it's Man City (4th), Man Utd (5th), Liverpool (8th), Arsenal (2nd) and Tottenham (3rd). Chelsea have to be included and 10th this year may just be a one-season aberration, while West Ham at 7th, like us, aren't regarded by many as part of the current 'elite' group.

What makes a top club seems to be winning a trophies, primarily the Premier League, but also the FA Cup and less so, the League Cup. Obviously, going on to win a European competition carries high status and obviously, the Champions’ League is the peak. But achieving something in just one season isn’t necessarily enough. To be recognised as a ‘top club’ requires silverware, or close to it, over a consistent period. Take Arsenal for instance, some of whose fans are becoming restless over lack of recent Premier League titles, but in the last 20 years, Arsenal have won the League title 3 times and the FA Cup 6 times. Leicester’s performance last season was remarkable, but now they have to continue at the same level, or close to it for another season and probably several season if they want to be seen as having an equivalent standing with the other clubs mentioned. You have to be more than a one-season wonder to break through.

This brings us to Southampton. While Arsenal were adding trophies to their cabinet in recent years, Saints had one FA Cup final appearance, two relegations and our climb out of L1,plus of course, the JPT. Since then, continual improvement year on year, a run that no other Premier League club is on, is quite an achievement but the club need to do all they can for it to be maintained. Some of the football public and media may see Southampton's last couple of years as just another team in the Stoke, Swansea mould, having some good results for a while but expecting Saints to sink to their position as a run-of-the-mill Premier League club. The challenge for the Board is to keep the improvement going. Les Reed’s comments show he needs no lectures about the fight ahead. An incremental approach has worked so far but if being a top club is what Ronald Koeman means when he says the club needs to show ambition then we do need to take another step up this year and the 5-year plan that Les Reed has mentioned is essential. It would make a start if we could have our name on a trophy in the coming year, and even then once is not enough. With the League and three cups to compete for, we need a strong squad up and ready to go before the season starts. Keeping these players together would be a tremendous step forward but we might need more than just fine tuning and there is no guarantee that we shan’t lose a couple of key players. The reality is that those ‘top clubs’ are looking at far more expensive and established internationals than we can currently aspire to ,in fact they are looking to us to strip players out again. Having a closely integrated group of players together with a tactically astute manager is all well and good but to send a powerful message, this is the time to resist any attempts by clubs to take players we don't want to lose. Being only 3 points off the top 4 last season shows how close we are to being good enough to move forward again. With two years left on his contract I hope we can resist offers for Mane and perhaps these new longer deals being offered might include wages sufficient to keep him and Victor at St Mary's. I'm not saying they are irreplaceable and even the most wealthy clubs do lose players they would prefer to keep but staying near the top long term isn't going to be easy or cheap.

not with a 32k stadium and wages we pay, no

I always thought there was a big 7 in premier league football. We finished top 8 for the third season in a row. Finishing above members of that top 7 for 2 seasons in a row. Too become a big club we just have to sustain it.

Like said above if we keep on what we're are doing and get a few scalps along the way maybe get in a few silverwares next couple seasons then surely we'll establish ourselves as a fairly elite club, like spuds perhaps. We're already considered a formidable opponent by every club in the pl so not too farfetched to suggest that we could be a top club in the near future. And what's even better is that we're building towards it rather than dropping arse first into the champs league and pl title like leicester. I fear they may crumble next season although i hope i'm wrong.

I do think it's possible. But my feeling is, not until we both make the CL and stop selling first-team players to other English clubs. The latter, preferablt starting now and for multiple years. Moving abroad, they can go wherever they please.

I know we will get more money, much more, from your Tottenhams and Liverpools, as they are paying a premium on English players and paying a premium on "hurting us" (theoretically, at least, and **** off both of them). Whatever lesser amount we'd get from having allowed Dejan and Adam in particular to move, but not within England, would have been worth it in terms of our reputation.

The fact of the matter is we are entering into a fantasyland era with regard to the TV money, and a reputation for NOT being a "selling club" would be worth at least a few tens of million pounds. In the long run, we would be paid back in terms of not being put over a barrel on transfers / player holdouts etc.

TLDR its not selling players that keeps us from being a top club, it's selling players *in England*

Not without a Man City or Chelsea style 1 billion investment.

Not if we have to depend on reading that ridiculously long post.

No. This is a good thing.

A "big club" will almost always be in a big city. We cannot change this, it's a natural consequence of the number of residents. We can become a bigger club than we are currently viewed as by most of the media and other football fans. How? Well, like the OP states, winning things over a number of years and competing in Europe regularly, and competing at the top end of the league every year. We are at the beginning of this change but whether we can continue only time will tell. I think the next few seasons will continue to be exciting and see a quality football team representing our city. Inevitably we may not finish higher every year of course but that should not be the only judgement.

We must also ensure that our future is secured during this time of huge tv money and the club must look at increasing our capacity or even rebuild. When the money reduces which surely it will at some point, having a stadium that will hold 40-45k will mean there is a good chance of remaining competitive in the years to come. As soon as The Dell capacity was reduced to 15.5k we became less competitive, and hence the move to St Mary's. The argument that we might not always fill 40-45 is relevant but counter productive. Better to have 38k every game with a few sell outs than 19 sell outs at 32k.

The next 5 years though I imagine is focussed on performance on the pitch in order to maximise options off the pitch.

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not with a 32k stadium and wages we pay, no

I agree with you Batman the top clubs are those in cities with large populations and with a large number of fans in Asia and other parts of the world

However we are at present one of the top teams in the UK but that probably will not last forever

I agree with you Batman the top clubs are those in cities with large populations and with a large number of fans in Asia and other parts of the world

 

However we are at present one of the top teams in the UK but that probably will not last forever

We would get more through the door if we had a bigger stadium.

We could then pay more in wages.

Just the cost of the new part of the ground and all that

We would get more through the door if we had a bigger stadium.

 

We could then pay more in wages.

 

Just the cost of the new part of the ground and all that

Don't disagree with your comment re stadium. We do know St Mary's is capable of being enlarged but that it won't be a priority as long as we only have a handful of full capacity matches. But gate money is not as important as it once was, now that the TV deal is bringing such massive revenue. Bournemouth surviving in the Prem with their small ground is pretty good evidence. The clubs I mentioned in the OP are in big cities and they also have long football pedigrees, mostly in the top flight, but Leicester have shown the status quo can be challenged. It isn't easy and success isn't certain, but its good that the club seem prepared to have a go.

No, we can make a run for champions league and win a cup though.

Would take a cup over champions league football everyday though.

Yes, as history has shown us, any club can: Huddersfield, Preston, Burnley, Wolves, Nottingham Forest, even Portsmouth. In 50 years' time, the top clubs will be completely different from now. Last year the naysayers, were adamant that the only clubs that could possibly win the league this season were Chelsea and Man City and no other clubs' fans should even dream of trying to compete with them. Any that disagreed were called 'mongs'. There are some right, miserable pessimists about: fully paid up members of the ever so 'umble, I know my place, brigade. Some Chelsea and Man City fans were probably saying they had no chance of ever competing with Man Utd and Arsenal not so many years ago.

I'm looking forward to seeing Saints take their turn as a top club. We very nearly did it in the 80s.

not with a 32k stadium and wages we pay, no

You're right. People in Malaysia and China only support teams with over 45,000 seats in their stadium.

Those seats also need to be red. With dragon logos on them.

They also only support teams with average wages of £100K a week.

I fear we are doomed.

You're right. People in Malaysia and China only support teams with over 45,000 seats in their stadium.

 

Those seats also need to be red. With dragon logos on them.

 

They also only support teams with average wages of £100K a week.

 

I fear we are doomed.

Good point, well made

Given the way football is currently structured particularly in England is is TV and commercial revenues that form the bulk of income and not ticket revenues. However you do need a large following both locally and worldwide to ensure you maximise the use commercial revenue and get a larger share of the TV pie.

So the point made regarding more fans and cheaper tickets to attract them is well made, but so should more marketing efforts on building up the clubs profile overseas

We are a long way behind the leading European clubs in this aspect.

It doesn't matter what fans think. Players must think we are a big club and that depends on (a) wages, (b) wages, © media attention, and (d) what other players think.

Can we be a top club?

...that's the sort of question that people asked when we were in the drop zone of L1 with -10 points.

Better still ......please define " top"? Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton have more trophies / titles in their club history...but I had to look down the League table to find them.

On the other hand ......Leicester were first in the Premier League.... Leicester?... .who are they? (everyone asked)

Every season we look to expect " the big six " to dominate, but we beat all of them at one time or another, and Man Utd spent a fortune on players last season alone, yet

had to go to the last League game to be able to finish above us .....

If Saints could hold the form they'd had since January ....they'd be up there fighting with Leicester for the title.

Leicester, spent less than we did in transfers, play in a stadium (more or less ) a similar capacity to SMS..and had a lower wage bill than Saints.

I know easier said than done, planning permission, big initial cost etc., but I never understand why clubs don't go for higher capacity lower ticket prices. Even if it doesn't reach the same revenues right away, you're literally creating a bigger club, lifelong fans and more potential.

 

40,000 all paying half what the 30,000 do now we'd end up making more money long term I'm sure.

What clubs do you mean? I can't think of any major club moving ground that went for a lower capacity.

You're right. People in Malaysia and China only support teams with over 45,000 seats in their stadium.

 

Those seats also need to be red. With dragon logos on them.

 

They also only support teams with average wages of £100K a week.

 

I fear we are doomed.

What a naive post.

I always thought there was a big 7 in premier league football. We finished top 8 for the third season in a row. Finishing above members of that top 7 for 2 seasons in a row. Too become a big club we just have to sustain it.

To become a big club we have to add silverware to it.

You're right. People in Malaysia and China only support teams with over 45,000 seats in their stadium.

 

Those seats also need to be red. With dragon logos on them.

 

They also only support teams with average wages of £100K a week.

 

I fear we are doomed.

?? How many Chinese fans do we expect to come to SMS?.....they' ll soon feel at home, there are plenty of Oriental restaurants in the city.......

Yes, as history has shown us, any club can: Huddersfield, Preston, Burnley, Wolves, Nottingham Forest, even Portsmouth. In 50 years' time, the top clubs will be completely different from now. Last year the naysayers, were adamant that the only clubs that could possibly win the league this season were Chelsea and Man City and no other clubs' fans should even dream of trying to compete with them. Any that disagreed were called 'mongs'. There are some right, miserable pessimists about: fully paid up members of the ever so 'umble, I know my place, brigade. Some Chelsea and Man City fans were probably saying they had no chance of ever competing with Man Utd and Arsenal not so many years ago.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Saints take their turn as a top club. We very nearly did it in the 80s.

Chelsea and Man City only became big clubs due to the investment (over 1 billion pounds each) but look how their revenue grew once having superstars playing for them and winning trophies started.

The money coming from abroad comes from people who want to support the successful teams with internationally known superstars. I personally can't see a world where that would be us.

What clubs do you mean? I can't think of any major club moving ground that went for a lower capacity.

Juventus did.

Yes, but will take time. We've had 3 decent seasons, not many do that and fewer keep going. If we can stay up in the top 8 for a good decade or so then we'll be a pretty big club. We're already a lot bigger than we were. European football regularly would help. A CL spot eventually would help, as would a cup win.

 

Capacity will need to go up at some point but it shouldn't stop us short term. City size and quality might. It's not the biggest draw although there are far worse places I know. Be nice to see development and a bit more culture in southampton generally to match the ambition of the club.

This

To become a big club we have to add silverware to it.

What's that?

Couldn't be arsed to read the OP but Leicester did it, so could we.

Think the new TV deal and the squad restrictions mean teams like Saints can now close the gap.

I wish we could be a big club with millions of fans so that when I say I support Southampton, people look at me as if to say "oh, another one".

Couldn't be arsed to read the OP but Leicester did it, so could we.

 

Think the new TV deal and the squad restrictions mean teams like Saints can now close the gap.

Leicester haven't become a "top club".

I wish we could be a big club with millions of fans so that when I say I support Southampton, people look at me as if to say "oh, another one".

Can you imagine it.

Leicester haven't become a "top club".

I agree totally CB.

Leicester had an exceptional season, and sneaked by everyone else. It has given a lot of inspiration to the " smaller clubs " who also see - it's not impossible.

But I also recall that in the early days of the Premier League (or was it the Premiership then ?), Blackburn benefited from the generosity of retired millionaire Jack Walker who plunged much of his fortune into bolstering up the club;(including buying Shearer, Kenna and Tim Flowers from Saints) and got Kenny Dalglish to manage the side.

They won the Prem. (once) but after a few seasons, sank down the table and were eventually relegated.

All glory to Leicester, but in all honesty I don't see them repeating the feat..and (sticking my neck out) think they may well struggle to finish in top four next season, and maybe not get past group stages of CL. It would nice to be proven wrong (for their sakes) but clubs with enormous financial backing will always be there or there abouts.

Leicester are NOT a big club , but the memory of their achievement last season may stay with their fans for generations.

I know easier said than done, planning permission, big initial cost etc., but I never understand why clubs don't go for higher capacity lower ticket prices. Even if it doesn't reach the same revenues right away, you're literally creating a bigger club, lifelong fans and more potential.

 

40,000 all paying half what the 30,000 do now we'd end up making more money long term I'm sure.

this

off point a little, but didn't ranieri, himself say that this season happens maybe once in 20 years, so even he has conceded Leicester will be unlikely to pull off the same result next year, and much respect to him for saying that.

 

40,000 all paying half what the 30,000 do now we'd end up making more money long term I'm sure.

That's the kind of financial management this club needs. Christ.

off point a little, but didn't ranieri, himself say that this season happens maybe once in 20 years, so even he has conceded Leicester will be unlikely to pull off the same result next year, and much respect to him for saying that.

He's just managing expectations.

Ok I am going to be harsh here ....

We have the token players to increase the fanbase . New sponsors from the USA.

What could go wrong ?

I guess we now need the media to accept our rise from the ashes

Most got the point, I explained it once but I'll try again for you. Ticket sales are representing an increasingly smaller proportion of revenue. There's no excuse for empty seats in such a popular league. Higher capacity with cheaper ticket prices creates more fans. Beyond the short term boost in food/drink sales, you create long-term merchandising gains, a wider fan base and more importantly, treating fans well and showing that loyalty is rewarded both ways with fans sticking by the club in the more difficult times.

 

The question was about creating a bigger club, and it's something that only happens over the long-term. Investments are always being made to those ends, this would be another long-term investment. The biggest problem for most clubs seems to be lack of continuity and a short term attitude. Change of owners, managers and subsequently leagues, finances and so on. So it's all about the next promotion, staying in the premier league, changing the manager to boost results. When you start to plan over the longer term you might actually achieve something. Plenty of clubs have got up, stayed up a while, yo-yoed a bit, or even hung around for a few years. That's about the limit of short term vision.

 

But obviously, when you say reduce prices to fill the stadium, there will always be a few who take it at face value and assume it's just the ramblings of someone with no understanding of finance or football. Whatever makes you feel better.

This is just the ramblings of someone with no understanding of football or finance.

Even basic maths show the gaping flaws in your plan you can drive a bus through and funnily enough the primary reason no other clubs have tried this plan - funny how it's them, not you, who don't understand football or finance isn't it?

Basics: 40k at £20 a seat vs 30k at £40 a seat leaves you at least seven million quid down, the equivalent of five league places prize money on 2016 totals. Or a player we now can't afford to sign.

Plus you've got the debt accrued on the seats you've built to lose money on. On decade old assumptions that's £30m worth of stadium. Or four year contracts for two or three first team players we now can't afford.

So all you've got left is the "new fans" we will supposedly attract and all that merchandise they'll buy. Except that 10k won't be new fans, they'll be existing occasional fans attending more regularly because you've decided to lose money on seats the club don't really need. The proportion of that 10k that genuinely are new fans - never bought merch before, never seen the team play live before - will be miniscule. Any genuinely incremental merchandise sales are not going to cover the the fact you have massacred match day revenue by a third.

And (obviously you being an expert I don't need to explain this) I've only talked about revenue not margin on your new exciting pricing plan versus the boring old way the club do it now.

But your plan (unencumbered with the "short term attitude" that the club currently has) is seeing us saddled with debt potentially impacting our ability to compete on wages and making less money in every single match we play in our bigger stadium potentially impacting transfer fees we can pay out.

And finishing sixth is no longer the sign of a healthy club progressing but a desperate financial imperative to try and match up revenues to pay for the expansion and hugely subsidised tickets. So no pressure there then players and manager.

It's a brilliant plan and you really know your stuff.

This is just the ramblings of someone with no understanding of football or finance.

 

Even basic maths show the gaping flaws in your plan you can drive a bus through and funnily enough the primary reason no other clubs have tried this plan - funny how it's them, not you, who don't understand football or finance isn't it?

 

Basics: 40k at £20 a seat vs 30k at £40 a seat leaves you at least seven million quid down, the equivalent of five league places prize money on 2016 totals. Or a player we now can't afford to sign.

 

Plus you've got the debt accrued on the seats you've built to lose money on. On decade old assumptions that's £30m worth of stadium. Or four year contracts for two or three first team players we now can't afford.

 

So all you've got left is the "new fans" we will supposedly attract and all that merchandise they'll buy. Except that 10k won't be new fans, they'll be existing occasional fans attending more regularly because you've decided to lose money on seats the club don't really need. The proportion of that 10k that genuinely are new fans - never bought merch before, never seen the team play live before - will be miniscule. Any genuinely incremental merchandise sales are not going to cover the the fact you have massacred match day revenue by a third.

 

And (obviously you being an expert I don't need to explain this) I've only talked about revenue not margin on your new exciting pricing plan versus the boring old way the club do it now.

 

But your plan (unencumbered with the "short term attitude" that the club currently has) is seeing us saddled with debt potentially impacting our ability to compete on wages and making less money in every single match we play in our bigger stadium potentially impacting transfer fees we can pay out.

 

And finishing sixth is no longer the sign of a healthy club progressing but a desperate financial imperative to try and match up revenues to pay for the expansion and hugely subsidised tickets. So no pressure there then players and manager.

 

It's a brilliant plan and you really know your stuff.

And hopefully with that excellent explanation of the financial realities we can stop talking about this for a bit

I wish we could be a big club with millions of fans so that when I say I support Southampton, people look at me as if to say "oh, another one".

Why would anyone want that?

I wish we could be a big club with millions of fans so that when I say I support Southampton, people look at me as if to say "oh, another one".

you're just a glory hunter, supporting Saints, so you are

A lot of the humour in this thread appears to be going over heads.

We are hardly a minnow in great lake of football but I love the over defensive we know our place brigade as much as those with delusions of grandeur. For me as for many anything is possible but I'll take it as it comes. Hopefully the next few seasons will be an angst ridden pleasure as were the last seven. ?

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A lot of the humour in this thread appears to be going over heads.

A lot of the sarcasm in this thread appears to be going over heads.

Top players want good wages, great players around them and the chance to win trophies.

They also want to be playing in cracking stadiums with great fans. SMS doesn't cut it and needs expanding (and filling) to 40-45k. Its up to the brains at the club to make that work.

The sad truth is there are clubs in leagues below us with either larger stadiums or equivalent stadiums to saints.

I've said this before, but the prem's tv money won't last. Nothing ever does. And when it ends, the clubs with 50k, 60k, 70k stadiums will always have them. British football as a whole should be using this period to invest in great stadiums and lower ticket prices... rather than putting money into wages. Idealistic I know, but that is how you actually build for the future. More fans attending, more kids watch games, getting a love for the sport and entering academies etc... Cynics can argue that it can't be afforded, but its simply a choice clubs should make. With the rapid increases in tv monies each season clubs could afford to do it without getting in peril.. I mean do people think that championship clubs are going to magically outspend established prem clubs? And look at arsenal and tottenham. Both have or are increasing their capacities whilst continuing to play at the top level. At the end of it they will surge forward. Arsenal have never dropped out of the top 4 and are now established (No other club has managed that feet since arsenal have been top 4).

That's the word i was looking for. Thanks.

Top players want good wages, great players around them and the chance to win trophies.

 

They also want to be playing in cracking stadiums with great fans. SMS doesn't cut it and needs expanding (and filling) to 40-45k. Its up to the brains at the club to make that work.

 

The sad truth is there are clubs in leagues below us with either larger stadiums or equivalent stadiums to saints.

 

I've said this before, but the prem's tv money won't last. Nothing ever does. And when it ends, the clubs with 50k, 60k, 70k stadiums will always have them. British football as a whole should be using this period to invest in great stadiums and lower ticket prices... rather than putting money into wages. Idealistic I know, but that is how you actually build for the future. More fans attending, more kids watch games, getting a love for the sport and entering academies etc... Cynics can argue that it can't be afforded, but its simply a choice clubs should make. With the rapid increases in tv monies each season clubs could afford to do it without getting in peril.. I mean do people think that championship clubs are going to magically outspend established prem clubs? And look at arsenal and tottenham. Both have or are increasing their capacities whilst continuing to play at the top level. At the end of it they will surge forward. Arsenal have never dropped out of the top 4 and are now established (No other club has managed that feet since arsenal have been top 4).

The only reason the TV money stops coming in is if the interest in the sport in England collapses, and if that happens attendance will also go down as you'll be on a vicious circle no investment, best players going somewhere else etc etc, game retreating to its traditional hardcore fanbase.

There won't be a scenario where there is a huge cut in TV revenue while at the same time 50,000 people are going to regular league matches. If interest in the sport falls away that much, then any newly expanded stadiums will start to look like white elephants, not insurance policies for the future.

There was no Sky money in the eighties and even the big clubs were scraping 20-30k through the door.

Never let your ambition be restricted by how others perceive you, this "top club" talk is insecurity talking.

We will be what we achieve in any given season, having the name southampton does not stop us winning the league, champions leage or Europa, it is down to perfomance of the team.

Even fans like us have to change with our club, look what leciester have done with the team that avoided relegation last season.