The fall and rise of the European Union

So who will be next to play Referendum Roulette?

My money's on the Dutch, they seem like they've had enough.

Its a Skandi noir - Denmark or Sweden

So who will be next to play Referendum Roulette?

 

My money's on the Dutch, they seem like they've had enough.

I'd be surprised if anyone does. I don't think the others have a Leader as plain stupid as Dave.

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I work for a Scandinavian company and I know some seriously cheesed off Danes and Swedes. Wouldn't bet against either of them being next. I saw the interview with La Pen today, if she gets in power she will almost certainly call a referendum.

I'd be surprised if anyone does. I don't think the others have a Leader as plain stupid as Dave.

You're assuming all EU member states will indefinitely be run by a pro-EU leader. Dave gambled and lost. (God forbid) Farage was our PM he'd still have called it and won.

I reckon you'll see another 2 or 3 countries leave and then the EU desperately scramble around to reform itself. That's the point to go back to the table and try to change things - staying in wouldn't have done anything.

I'd be surprised if anyone does. I don't think the others have a Leader as plain stupid as Dave.

I'm sure they haven't, nobody could be that stupid. Perhaps it's because he's a toff and people think that if you're well-spoken then you must be intelligent.

So who will be next to play Referendum Roulette?

 

My money's on the Dutch, they seem like they've had enough.

Though we do have our own David Cameron (Mark Rutte he's called) it is not likely that Holland will follow soon Hutch, the only important politician who likes to have a referendum is Wilders but he will never get enough support from other major parties who are all supporting the EU. Besides, most Dutchmen want to stay in the EU or so the polls said today. However, the Dutch were regularly backed by the British (Rutte and Cameron share the same ideas...) in the EU when they had to face the Germans and French on several matters. Now we are on our own and it's clear that Rutte can't do it alone as Holland is a minor player by itself. You know how the Dutch care about money and when it's going to cost us more and more to stay in the EU, the sentiment about the EU will change eventually. Next week we will hear what the EU has decided regarding the harmonisation of the pension systems in the EU. The Dutch have one of the best systems in the world and the EU are drooling about the 1.400 billion euros our pension funds have. I reckon they will be careful at this moment not to add fuel to the fires but if they're not...

Hopefully this British philosopher gets it right and we will join the British in the end!

The Dutch, Czechs, Swedes, Danish and French all have parties that want out. I honestly think that us leaving will be the beginning of the end for the EU. If a country like France were to leave then it would be catastrophic. Germany wouldn't hang around after that. Plus it looks like a few weaker econimies are going to be granted membership and Spain & Italy are struggling.

In theory the EU was a good idea but in practice over the last 5-6 years it's been an utter disaster.

Counties may well observe the economic carnage self inflicted by the UK and think why would anyone follow that stupid lot.

Or they may be think look how good they all fell with their new found 'liberties' and ' freedom' enjoying their smaller than regulation strawberries. They all look so so happy.

That's what the EU are hoping for but realistically, the EU is beginning to struggle again and more pressure will now be put on top countries like Germany and France.

I bet if France had an EU referendum tomorrow their people would vote to leave en mass.

That's what the EU are hoping for but realistically, the EU is beginning to struggle again and more pressure will now be put on top countries like Germany and France.

 

I bet if France had an EU referendum tomorrow their people would vote to leave en mass.

Thats what leave tried to imply. Glorious Britain leading the charge to save Europe. In reality no other country is going to leave. We're on our own, with everybody else thinking what a bunch of tossers we are.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/eu-questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-frances-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote/

I work for a Scandinavian company and I know some seriously cheesed off Danes and Swedes. Wouldn't bet against either of them being next. I saw the interview with La Pen today, if she gets in power she will almost certainly call a referendum.

Le Pen will never get power, the 2 round system will always prevent it from happening.

Anyway in 2005 the French refused the latest form of the European treaty by 55 to 45, changed absolutely squat, the government went ahead with it anyway on the grounds that the people are idiots anyway and no attention needed to be paid to whatever they might think about things that were too complex for their comprehension..

The EU will make our departure so odious that no-one else will attempt it.

Look at Juncker and you can see Sepp Blatter, both so ruthless and obove the law in their minds they will wreak havoc on us. Junckter is a burocrat he doesnt have to worry if Germany sell a few less cars by upsetting the Uk as he has a gold pension. He will make sure the Brits regret the vote for ever. Well done all those who quoted Waterloo and giving it to those pesky Europeans but sadly in my opinion it was not a Waterloo moment but Dunkirk at its worst

The EU will make our departure so odious that no-one else will attempt it.

Look at Juncker and you can see Sepp Blatter, both so ruthless and obove the law in their minds they will wreak havoc on us. Junckter is a burocrat he doesnt have to worry if Germany sell a few less cars by upsetting the Uk as he has a gold pension. He will make sure the Brits regret the vote for ever. Well done all those who quoted Waterloo and giving it to those pesky Europeans but sadly in my opinion it was not a Waterloo moment but Dunkirk at its worst

Anyone quoting Waterloo is as deluded as most of the brexit arguments. Wellington of Britain and Blucher of Prussia beat Napoleon of France as a combined effort.

Anyone quoting Waterloo is as deluded as most of the brexit arguments. Wellington of Britain and Blucher of Prussia beat Napoleon of France as a combined effort.

And the French were our allies in Crimea. It was French Cavalry who protected the left flank of the Light Brigade and covered their retreat.

Anyone quoting Waterloo is as deluded as most of the brexit arguments. Wellington of Britain and Blucher of Prussia beat Napoleon of France as a combined effort.

I do know that, but in thier minds it was a British victory, much like Dunkirk was not just British defeated and becoming a retreating rabble

who's minds?

who's minds?

who's minds?

I saw it compared to Dunkirk in today's Times.

(Sorry, can't be arsed to look it up)

I saw it compared to Dunkirk in today's Times.

 

(Sorry, can't be arsed to look it up)

A disaster stopped from being a an utter catastrophe by the kindness of a German?

Thats what leave tried to imply. Glorious Britain leading the charge to save Europe. In reality no other country is going to leave. We're on our own, with everybody else thinking what a bunch of tossers we are.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/eu-questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-frances-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote/

It's far more likely now. Why do you think Germany was so keen to keep the Greeks on board the eurozone boat at any cost? Once one country exits the euro and defaults, they'll be queuing up to get out.

It's far more likely now. Why do you think Germany was so keen to keep the Greeks on board the eurozone boat at any cost? Once one country exits the euro and defaults, they'll be queuing up to get out.

Germany needs Greece to continue in the eurozone because if they return to the drachma it will collapse against the euro and make Greece's euro debts impossible to service. Greece would have to default, that would bring down the German banks who lent them much of the cash, cost Germany tens of billions in bailouts and probably trigger recession in Germany. The situation with Britain is utterly different.

There is discontent with the EU in lots of countries - just as there are groups in every country unhappy with their government - but its a minority. Nobody else is going to leave, they are still queuing up to join. We are uniquely badly led and informed.

I reckon you'll see another 2 or 3 countries leave and then the EU desperately scramble around to reform itself. That's the point to go back to the table and try to change things - staying in wouldn't have done anything.

+1 (because this forum still doesn't have the ability to 'like' a post)

Anyone quoting Waterloo is as deluded as most of the brexit arguments. Wellington of Britain and Blucher of Prussia beat Napoleon of France as a combined effort.

A large part of Wellington's 'British' army were Germans - Hannoverians, Brunswickers, and Nassauers, plus a number of Dutch / Belgians. Only 25 thousand of his 67 thousand were British, ( many actually Irish - as was Wellington himself ). It was in truth a European army.

A large part of Wellington's 'British' army were Germans - Hannoverians, Brunswickers, and Nassauers, plus a number of Dutch / Belgians. Only 25 thousand of his 67 thousand were British, ( many actually Irish - as was Wellington himself ). It was in truth a European army.

And led to the formation of Belgium, appropriate really.

I thinking that all those eurosceptic types wetting their lips about the prospect of the fall of the European Union might do well to spare a thought for the fate of their own nation.

I thinking that all those eurosceptic types wetting their lips about the prospect of the fall of the European Union might do well to spare a thought for the fate of their own nation.

Why do I have the impression that eurosceptics might believe that a fall of the current EU might be positive for the fate of their own nation? Surely not because they're all uneducated xenophobic racists who are all unreasonable fearmongers believing the lies of Nigel Farrage I hope?

Why do I have the impression that eurosceptics might believe that a fall of the current EU might be positive for the fate of their own nation? Surely not because they're all uneducated xenophobic racists who are all unreasonable fearmongers believing the lies of Nigel Farrage I hope?

Not knowing you I really can't say why you think what you think - this is very much a case of 'you tell me'.

Not knowing you I really can't say why you think what you think - this is very much a case of 'you tell me'.

In my opinion the current EU is a monstrosity which is getting out of control. Never mind the lack of democracy, the sheer fact that no one has a clue where we are going with the monetary policy of the ECB worries me much more. As you'll probably know the ECB operates indepently from the individual members of the EU who don't have any influence on the policies of signor Draghi. This chap is spending 80 billions each month buying debentures and other debts from EU countries including Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal, countries with a national debt exceeding 100% of their GDP... Where does Draghi get the money from? Well, I guess he's just printing it like the FED in the US likes to do and I don't have to tell you that the US is basically bankrupt. So, what will happen when Draghi's bubble will be punctured eventually? In that case it's no longer the individual member state which is going to bleed, no, we're all are... The Netherlands have already paid 30 billions to support banks who put their money in Greece (I bet the UK paid even far more as they are a bigger member of the club) and I don't want us to pay again for countries who are drowning in their own overconsumption with citizens unwilling to pay taxes.

I don't know if you are aware of the consequences of the introduction of the Euro as you still get paid in pounds but I can tell you life in Holland has become much more expensive. Within a couple of years many things became twice as expensive (when you count in the former Dutch guilder). To make it simple: a glass of beer costed two guilders and 50 cents and within a year it was 2 euro's and 50 cents which is the equivalent of 5 old guilders and 50 cents. Or take a Volkswagen Golf which costed 25.000 guilders before 2002 and soon afterwards 22.000 euro's or more than 48.000 old guilders. Of course this was not the case with the monthly paychecks, when you earned 5.000 guilders each month before 2002 you get 2.272 euro's afterwards... Recently there has been a petition for a national enquiry to seek out what the introduction has costed the Dutch. Guess what? politicians were not interested because it was "politically not opportune". Off the record some said there won't be a euro in 10 years time... The thing is that there's no criticism of the euro allowed in Holland, students report that they would commit career suicide when they would be telling their real thoughts about the euro. Scholarships, international conferences and professors, all would turn their back on them. Or take our Ministry of Finance which had a committee working on exit strategies when the next euro crisis would happen. Our Minister Dijsselbloem ordered this committee to stop with their task. Yup, bury your head in the sand, what you don't see doesn't exist...

I could go on and on (what to think of the fact that the EU isn't capable to control the mass immigration which is splitting the societies everywhere) but I guess you get my point. There's no politician who can explain why the EU is a good thing for us without talking nonsense. Usually they start talking about trade but we don't need the EU for this, that could all be settled in the EEA, the EFTA or even the WTO.

Why do you believe the EU is necessary Charlie?

Why do I think that forms of international co-operation are desirable?

First off, as a amateur but life-long student of history I've seen what so often happens on our continent when European nation states choose not to cooperate peacefully with each other. Our fathers and grandfathers learnt this old lesson the hard way. However, so debased as debate become in the UK recently that this line of argument has come to be (glibly) misrepresented as tantamount to claiming that "World War Three" would rapidly break out should the UK vote to leave the EU - which is nonsense of course. But the EU can trace its roots back to the aftermath of the most terrible of all wars and assumimg that Europe is free from that ancient curse for decades and centuries to come is the height of folly:

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Secondly, once nations learn to live and trade together peacefully then history shows us that the prosperity of their citizens can be expected to increase in step with their enhanced security. The tarrif-free EU 'Single Market' area has been one of the principle reasons I think why the UK economy has emerged from its seemingly remorseless post imperial decline to become the broadly successful force it was until last Thursday. How can you practically organise such a huge enterprise - and the rules required to make it work effectively - in a Europe of 30 (or so) different nation states without some specificaly european body being formed to make it all work? No, if the EU did not exist then we would need to invent it, and if we were inventing it now with all the benifits of 20/20 hindsight then we would do well perhaps to make it a smaller and more responsive organisation that was capable of adapting faster to changing circumstances. For example, the free movement of people concept worked well before the end of the Cold War and the entry of poorer eastern european states that followed in its wake.

So why then did the British people (narrowly) vote to leave the EU when their own enlightened self-interest surely dictates the opposite course of action should have been selected? Well some shared your apparent dislike of the EU and internationalism in general - there is no denying that. Others exhibit the innate suspicion and fear of foreigners common to island peoples everywhere. But the matter is a deeper one than that I think and many seem to have used their vote as a kind of protest against what they see as the inequitable nature of the modern world. On here I've seen the EU/foregners blamed for virtualy ever problem in modern British society - from GP waiting times, housing shortages, to a air accident - often without any evidence or even rational argument. For both nations and induviduals blaming someone else for your problems is always easier than looking at yourself is it not?

What people really object to methinks is globalisation and how not everyone gets to fully share in all the benifits that process brings. But no one nation can stand against a force of that scale any more effectivly than King Canute could resist the tide. And while the British people - in truth more the English people - have registered their disapproval of the world it won't do them any good of course.

I agree, it's a good thing that France and Germany are tied one way or another but it worked out well in the EEC and Nato so why do we need a EU with all the power it has today? When it really comes to our safety I'll put my trust in Nato (read the Americans) rather than our European Parliament which utterly failed with Yugoslavia as you might remember. Being a former Dutch Air Force officer in that period it's possible I'm slightly biased on this subject but fact is that the EU (especially Germany which was looking for profit while the British and French were opposed) stirred things up because they recognised Slovenia and Croatia in order expand the EU and in the end we needed the Americans (again) for the rescue. The result of this EU politics: 200.000 people died, 4 million refugees and uncountable rapes. Can you believe my stomach was turning when I saw the members of the EU parliament Hans van Baalen and Guy Verhofstadt appearing on a square in Kiev a couple of years ago, shouting that the EU will back the Ukrainians in their struggle for independance? As if Putin would agree with this... No Charlie, when it comes to safety we're better off without this lot in Brussels who are unable to understand geopolitics or aren't able to execute some sort of strategy.

You could say we need a European body to organise things for the many nation states which are part of the EU these days but in my opinion it should never have come this far. The EU is trying to reconcile the irreconcilable with all these different countries with different cultures and identities, the free movement of people sounds nice in theory but when the economy goes into decline things start to get real nasty as we've seen before. The EU politicians fail to take this seriously, they probably believe it will all blow over but it won't. Like you said: the unlucky ones need to blame some scapegoat. Looking at the near future in which robotization is gaining more and more ground, jobs will disappear and a lot of people will be out of work. So there has to be a new economic model (or is it frame?) which will see to it that people are contributing to society in a different way which has to be funded by those who do have a job. I don't believe that the average Dutchman, German or Englishman is willing to pay for someone from Bulgaria, Poland or Romania when he already has to pay for his countryman, it's simply not affordable. The EU may try to force her will upon the citizens of the many different nation states but I guess you'll agree with me that the more they do this, the more distance and hate they'll get in return. As you can see these days in many parts of Europe... In my opinion the EU and the politicians in the nation states fail to explain why the current powerfull and big EU is needed while the EEC was just ok. Many citizens don't feel represented by all these people in Brussels who are accused of being there for themselves and not the citizens, I can't blame them as it is clear to me that a lot of EU officials are not really interested in what the people feel.

Mind you, I don't dislike internationalism. I've been around the globe and if it was up to me we would have one world order and no more nation states. But that's just wishfull thinking...

Irony

Yes the challenge automation will pose for humanity is a profound one that I too have been thinking much about of late - I say "thinking about" without nessesary finding a answer you understand. It is not much of a exaggeration to say that a new generation of increasingly sophisticated machines will just half a century from now (or even sooner perhaps) be capable of undertaking almost all of the economic tasks Human Beings now perform in the world - but much more cheaply, reliably and efficiently than we possibly can.

This is not an entirly new challenge for humanity of course - indeed machines have been replacing people since long before the industrial revolution. But in the past people replaced by this process have generaly been able to find other (often more productive) roles for themselves elsewhere in the developing economy. For the first time in history I'm not so sure that process will still apply in the future as I just don't see where the practical limits for robotics and computerisation are. As a Air Force man you will already comprehend the potential UAV's offer to fight our future wars. But that technology will soon be joined by road vehicles that drive themselves, androids to tend to our every need, factories and warehouses than run without any real Human interevention - all not so long ago the stuff of science fiction but now a rapidly approaching reality. Our grandchildren can't all spend their lives writing poetry or doing social-work can they?

But all this leads to the next question and it's a huge one: What is the ultimate purpose of the economy if it is not to serve the needs of people? The future needn't be some kind of nightmarish man v machine conflict I hope, indeed it could be a golden age for mankind, but if you seek meaningful answers to these difficult questions then you probably need to seek out someone with a better brain than my poor one.

Sorry, I know all this has little to do with the EU question - it is far more interesting and important than that.

I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.

I thinking that all those eurosceptic types wetting their lips about the prospect of the fall of the European Union might do well to spare a thought for the fate of their own nation.

It is thinking about our nation that led us to leave. Surprised you didn't recognise that.

It is thinking about our nation that led us to leave. Surprised you didn't recognise that.

I wonder if those Leave voters who now say that if they'd known the referendum result beforehand then they would have voted differently thought about our nation's future all that deeply? The distingtragation of the UK I warned you about weeks ago will come to pass now I fear - I for one will regret that to my dying day.

Irony

 

In a sense you could say that it was true. The economy had been recovering nicely but Labour's failure to engage effectively in the Remain campaign must have made a difference.

Not the only factor though. Boris, the Daily Mail (other tabloids are available), Farage, misunderstanding and a lack of knowledge amongst the wider public...

Automation?

I can recommend 'Player Piano' by Kurt Vonnegut written in 1952. Remarkably prescient it describes how society is fragmented between a small number of technocrats and the lower classes who have been replaced by machines.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)

But I digress.

Yes the challenge automation will pose for humanity is a profound one that I too have been thinking much about of late - I say "thinking about" without nessesary finding a answer you understand. It is not much of a exaggeration to say that a new generation of increasingly sophisticated machines will just half a century from now (or even sooner perhaps) be capable of undertaking almost all of the economic tasks Human Beings now perform in the world - but much more cheaply, reliably and efficiently than we possibly can.

 

This is not an entirly new challenge for humanity of course - indeed machines have been replacing people since long before the industrial revolution. But in the past people replaced by this process have generaly been able to find other (often more productive) roles for themselves elsewhere in the developing economy. For the first time in history I'm not so sure that process will still apply in the future as I just don't see where the practical limits for robotics and computerisation are. As a Air Force man you will already comprehend the potential UAV's offer to fight our future wars. But that technology will soon be joined by road vehicles that drive themselves, androids to tend to our every need, factories and warehouses than run without any real Human interevention - all not so long ago the stuff of science fiction but now a rapidly approaching reality. Our grandchildren can't all spend their lives writing poetry or doing social-work can they?

 

But all this leads to the next question and it's a huge one: What is the ultimate purpose of the economy if it is not to serve the needs of people? The future needn't be some kind of nightmarish man v machine conflict I hope, indeed it could be a golden age for mankind, but if you seek meaningful answers to these difficult questions then you probably need to seek out someone with a better brain than my poor one.

 

Sorry, I know all this has little to do with the EU question - it is far more interesting and important than that.

Not saying automation is unimportant but it has been vastly exaggerated, as it has always been (just read some of the dire warnings in the past that have never come to fruition). Indeed, an argument can be made that we have more to worry from slowing rather than accelerating technological progress which is what is happening across developed economies.

A decent paper on automation:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/the-risk-of-automation-for-jobs-in-oecd-countries_5jlz9h56dvq7-en

I reckon you'll see another 2 or 3 countries leave and then the EU desperately scramble around to reform itself. That's the point to go back to the table and try to change things - staying in wouldn't have done anything.

I keep hearing the EU needs reforming I say it myself but what do you think needs reforming apart from the CAP but even with that I dont know what needs to happen.

However I do know the UK needs reforming Austerity needs to stop there needs to be more houses built there needs to be more investment in infrastructure and public services better productivity less exploitation of people in lower paid jobs and more tax collected from tax dodgers and multi national countries.

These are things which are in the hands of the UK government nothing to do with Europe although most of Europe could do the same

^ I do remember, from way back in the 1980's, people speculating how we would cope in the future - which means now of course - with the vast amounts of lesuire time and wealth we would all enjoy thanks to technological progress. Well needless to say it didn't quite work out like that. Indeed, our everyday lives now are perhaps more pressurized and hectic than they have ever been. Few saw that, thanks to globalisation, in some ways the standard of living would stagnate for so many here in the west instead of continuing to rise inexorably. In other ways we exist today in the best of all possible worlds.

But I get the sense that our technology is at last beginning to catch up with the imagination of the better type of science fiction writer and that some really profound change in the way the world is lays awaite for humanity in the coming decades. The question first asked by Mary Shelley in the 19th century, and again at the dawn of the nuclear age, about whether mankind will ultimetly control science - or become its victim - is I think as pressing now as it ever was.

But feel free to ignore me because as armchair futureologists go my record is truely appalling - admits the man who once insisted that he'd never have a computer in his home ...

I keep hearing the EU needs reforming I say it myself but what do you think needs reforming apart from the CAP

Even that is moot. The CAP tries to strike a balance between maintaining security of food supply in times of war or world hunger (clearly its risky to import all your food), maintaining a reasonable level of environmental protection and biodiversity, and making the countryside accessible to walkers. Around 50% of a British farmer's income comes from the CAP. If we stopped subsidising agriculture altogether farming in most areas of the country would be uneconomic. Do we want a country entirely reliant on imports and a countryside absent of fields and livestock?

Could you increase production by ripping up all the hedgerows, canalising all the streams to create 2km square prairies and then using massive amounts of pesticides and fertiliser? - sure. But in the process you would reduce jobs, destroy almost all wildlife, create an unattractive countryside for visitors and produce a huge bill for cleaning up our water supplies due to run off. And after doing all that it would still be cheaper to import from Kenya or Peru.

Thanks for posting on this threat Van Hanegem, interesting to read the Dutch perspective, hopefully the people there will also soon be able to show their dissatisfaction towards the EU and the corrupt bureaucrats who run it.

Thanks for posting on this threat Van Hanegem, interesting to read the Dutch perspective, hopefully the people there will also soon be able to show their dissatisfaction towards the EU and the corrupt bureaucrats who run it.

Why do you still care?

(and thanks too to our Dutch friend)

Why do you still care?

 

(and thanks too to our Dutch friend)

Because we are still part of it and until Article 50 is activated and our establishment show they are prepared to actually leave i'm yet to be convinced we'll actually end up out of the EU.

Because we are still part of it and until Article 50 is activated and our establishment show they are prepared to actually leave i'm yet to be convinced we'll actually end up out of the EU.

Fair enough. I only hope you're right.

I think the Danes will be next to push for it. The're notoriously anti EU and have previously voted against it in their 3 EU referendums to date... If they get the vote (and there have been calls) they will happily cut the strings.

I also personally hope that the Finns get the opportunity - if only because it will be referred to as a Fixit......

Ultimately others will wait to see the fallout from the Brexit and the settlement deal that Britain gets...

I think the Danes will be next to push for it. The're notoriously anti EU and have previously voted against it in their 3 EU referendums to date... If they get the vote (and there have been calls) they will happily cut the strings.

 

I also personally hope that the Finns get the opportunity - if only because it will be referred to as a Fixit......

 

Ultimately others will wait to see the fallout from the Brexit and the settlement deal that Britain gets...

True, which is why I can't see us getting anything. I smell a stalemate coming up. No settlement, no Article 50, repeat add infinitum. A letter in the Times this morning pointed out that John Chilcot would be free soon and we should put him in charge of negotiations. That would hold things up for at least ten years.

Sorry, I know all this has little to do with the EU question - it is far more interesting and important than that.

I wouldn't say that the automation of societies is more important than the current EU question as these things are tied one way or another but it's surely interesting... Shurlock's comment is probably right, jobs may disappear but there will be new jobs (maintenance, servicing etc.) instead, just like it happened before. However, I don't believe there will be enough jobs left to hold on to the current economic model, especially not with all the migration going on. There's a population explosion in several parts of Africa and as there's no future there for many of them, they are willing to put their lives at risk to come to Europe as economic refugees (not to be confused with refugees seeking shelter for the war in their countries...). When the EU fails to get a grip on this migration (they're trying now with rewards for countries that take these people back and penalties for those who are unwilling) we're creating a new underclass of uneducated people who are not capable to take part in western society. I've mentioned "this is London" by Ben Judah in another topic before, you should really read it to get the picture of what's going on. The world outlined in the sci-fi classic "Blade Runner" does spring to mind...

I have some friends who started up a company in 3D printing a few years ago and it's really exciting to see where this will lead to. There are printers for consumers already on the market but these are still expensive and do not offer that many possibilities. But that's going to change of course and eventually you will have a 3D printer next to the computer you once insisted you would never have in your home. Imagine what will happen with mass production in China when the western world is going to print their own t-shirts, bike parts etc. etc. I guess the Chinese government would be wise to restart the program in which you get a radio as a reward for sterilisation. Well, these days it has to be an i-Pad off course...

There you have it Charlie, the only answer to automation of the western societies my limited brain can think of is a firm decrease in world-population. Usually we need a full scale war or pestilence to achieve that, let's hope the human kind has learned its lessons...