Everton post match meltdown.

I am a bit surprised at those who are still quite prepared to accept and defend this whole mediocrity from the Owner, Board

and Manager. Lots of better minds than mine were warning about what might happen after the last summers events. These

people really have the Club at heart and want it to do even better than it has, not go backwards. I am starting to strongly

feel that the Owner and Board have slowly lost interest in Saints and don't care as much as in the past. People just have to

forget about what happened 5 or so years ago - it is no longer important with regard to now and if it was Portsmouth's F.A.

Cup etc history would still be important and they would be in the P.L.

Perhaps those who fall over themselves to call people who worry deeply "bedwetters" should just stop pretending to support

Saints and just travel down the M27. They will never be able to convince me that they do in fact have the best will for Saints

but they would fit like a six fingered glove down there amongst that lot. At least Portsmouth supporters are open about their

dislike of Saints and are not acting like a bunch of fifth columnists trying to upset Saints from within.

Happy New Year to those that really care about Saints and stuff the rest.

I am a bit surprised at those who are still quite prepared to accept and defend this whole mediocrity from the Owner, Board

and Manager. Lots of better minds than mine were warning about what might happen after the last summers events. These

people really have the Club at heart and want it to do even better than it has, not go backwards. I am starting to strongly

feel that the Owner and Board have slowly lost interest in Saints and don't care as much as in the past. People just have to

forget about what happened 5 or so years ago - it is no longer important with regard to now and if it was Portsmouth's F.A.

Cup etc history would still be important and they would be in the P.L.

 

Perhaps those who fall over themselves to call people who worry deeply "bedwetters" should just stop pretending to support

Saints and just travel down the M27. They will never be able to convince me that they do in fact have the best will for Saints

but they would fit like a six fingered glove down there amongst that lot. At least Portsmouth supporters are open about their

dislike of Saints and are not acting like a bunch of fifth columnists trying to upset Saints from within.

 

Happy New Year to those that really care about Saints and stuff the rest.

Pinko!

We have come a long way in 6 years and the Board deserve a lot of time and some patience from us in return. They need to either back Puel with a vote of confidence or get rid of him. He has clearly lost the dressing room - VVD intimated as much about the style of play, and Hojberg has probably been asked to curb his progressive style of play, hence the show of dissent after the substitution. Can't imagine Fonte's happy after the not appearing in the Europa League either. I want Puel gone, but respect the Boards decision. The unrest is now at a level where they need to make a statement though. The football is appalling and the players we have are capable of so much better.

It's the rotation that is killing us, not the schedule per se. It's one thing to rotate some of your strike force but to regularly change three of your back four is just crazy.

Agree. Our first choice back 4 is class. But put in any cover players, (I'll exclude Targett as I think he can defend) that's Martina/McQueen/Yoshida, and we start getting pulled all over the shop and almost guaranteed the oppo will get at least a goal a game. Bertrand and Cedric are brittle as f though so we need two more quality full backs and PLEASE a decent 3rd choice CB for 1st time in years and we'll be ok. Oh and a top striker to capitalise on the clean sheets. Not much lol.

Puel talked at the start of the season about how we can't play a pressing game or fast tempo because of all the fixtures. I think his instructions have us playing this slow boring way and it's making it so easy for teams to setup against us. We can't penetrate a deep line and then all they need is a couple of chances on the counter to break us down. Too early to call for the sack with our crazy congested fixtures this season. He needs to show he can turn things around when we get to 1 game a week.

You make a good point. He's obsessed with there being too many fixtures and therefore having to rotate. Hadn't seen the comment about tempo but makes sense.

But other teams manage it without six changes a game, suggesting that we lack fitness and stamina generally. Look at the number of late goals conceded, even with the emphasis on fresh players.

I'm feeling less and less happy with Puel: the excuses are starting to come instead of motivating and driving the team and accepting that the PL has greater demands than he's previously faced.

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You make a good point. He's obsessed with there being too many fixtures and therefore having to rotate. Hadn't seen the comment about tempo but makes sense.

 

But other teams manage it without six changes a game, suggesting that we lack fitness and stamina generally. Look at the number of late goals conceded, even with the emphasis on fresh players.

 

I'm feeling less and less happy with Puel: the excuses are starting to come instead of motivating and driving the team and accepting that the PL has greater demands than he's previously faced.

 

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I agree, he has defended team selection and tactics due to energy preservation, yet that is a contradiction as if he is going to change so many players each game anyway then energy preservation should not be such an issue.

We've had glimpses of how well we can play in 15 min slots this season at a decent tempo, but so often after a good start we retreat and give the opposition so much space in midfield.

Puel has lost a lot of goodwill due to the manner of our exit from Europe, I haven't seen fans around me so wound up and angry in years and those feelings are still there in the criticism he is currently getting.

If Puel is somehow able to work a miracle and get us through against Liverpool then that will go a long way to rebuilding his support within our fan base.

I'm guessing the squad was compiled in the summer to the size required and budget available. Is the club now willing and or able to add more players and their wages half way through the season? Is the flexibility required possible? I mean, signing another striker for example could be a £40m investment fee and wages. Can clubs our size make that sort of 'gamble' now? Just asking...

Nutshell, we have made a series of less than good decision which have led us into a very un-Southampton like situation. For a club that prided themselves (correctly!) on being one step ahead of the game we have taken our eye off the ball and now find ourselves two steps behind the curve. From a position where we dictated our own development in a pro-active and planned way we are now forced into a position of being reactive. We either tough it out and rebuild in the summer or we chuck money at players we might not have been wanting in the bigger scheme of things. All dependent on a) who will actually come here at the moment and b) whether we stick or twist with the manager.

I can't see any easy fix and any option we do take from here is going to cost serious money. The saving light is the youngsters but they've been massively let down by the oldsters this season - can't believe Fonte doesn't cop more flack on here for his antics since the summer, VVD's head's gone, Forster's been beyond abysmal (prob injured as well but with no reliable cover), Redmond has been a moaning and whinging ever present irritant, Long has been like Long has mainly been all his career, JRod will ride on those two B'mouth goals for the rest of the season ... etc etc.

Guess none of this is exactly 'unexpected' for a smaller club taking on a full Europa programme, but we do seem to have hit a perfect storm of over-expectant fans and under-achieving management and players. For all they've done for us the board need to suck it up and spend some serious money or move on for someone that can, or else they might be feeling a distinct chill when ST renewal time comes around.

Careful what you wish for eh?

I agree, he has defended team selection and tactics due to energy preservation, yet that is a contradiction as if he is going to change so many players each game anyway then energy preservation should not be such an issue.

We've had glimpses of how well we can play in 15 min slots this season at a decent tempo, but so often after a good start we retreat and give the opposition so much space in midfield.

 

Puel has lost a lot of goodwill due to the manner of our exit from Europe, I haven't seen fans around me so wound up and angry in years and those feelings are still there in the criticism he is currently getting.

 

If Puel is somehow able to work a miracle and get us through against Liverpool then that will go a long way to rebuilding his support within our fan base.

I think a lot of fans are frustrated as the penny has dropped that although players like VVD have signed long contracts the club are lining up to sell. Add to that the fact we lost the major goalscorers from the team we didn't fully replace those goals. They then come out and indicate that Austin was Pelles replacement, but not when he was bought. We were short of forwards before the 2 left let alone after

Our current run of fixtures has been more congested than any other side in the league. Could we have challenged the decision to move the Spurs home game?

Our current run of fixtures has been more congested than any other side in the league. Could we have challenged the decision to move the Spurs home game?

I don't think there is any 'challenge' against TV games is there?

Think this is being over-played (the fixture schedule) ... we had 10 days off from B to Spurs, a perfect 'half term'/mini-mid winter break for everybody.

The game to move would have been yesterday's to Tuesday, was this Everton's only home game at Xmas?

So let's sack Puel. Install Black as caretaker manager and see how well that turns out. Villa fans would **** themselves.

So let's sack Puel. Install Black as caretaker manager and see how well that turns out. Villa fans would **** themselves.

I've never understood why we got Black. Every manager needs a shrewd, tactically-aware assistant and Black isn't either of those. In fact, I can't believe he serves any useful function.

Who chose him?

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I don't think there is any 'challenge' against TV games is there?

 

Think this is being over-played (the fixture schedule) ... we had 10 days off from B to Spurs, a perfect 'half term'/mini-mid winter break for everybody.

 

The game to move would have been yesterday's to Tuesday, was this Everton's only home game at Xmas?

Agree. We had a reasonable break after the Bournemouth game and have effectively played three games at 'home' (including the trip to Bournemouth).

I've never understood why we got Black. Every manager needs a shrewd, tactically-aware assistant and Black isn't either of those. In fact, I can't believe he serves any useful function.

 

Who chose him?

 

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Puel chose him. They have known each other for years (since Black played in the French league). Puel wanted him because they are friends and Black speaks fluent French (therefore, he acts as Puel's ever-present translator, i.e. on the bench, at the training ground, etc).

Puel chose him. They have known each other for years (since Black played in the French league). Puel wanted him because they are friends and Black speaks fluent French (therefore, he acts as Puel's ever-present translator, i.e. on the bench, at the training ground, etc).

Should have guessed. Can't believe our famed black box would have come up with him in a million years.

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That was never a 3-0 game, we looked the better side for a fair chunk of the game, but our heads definitely dropped when they got their first. Annoying as a thought Everton were sh**te.

When was the last time Forster even got close to a penalty? Seems to just dive out of the way well before the ball has even been struck.

Most concerning part of the game was that Everton really couldn't have played any worse for 70 minutes and we still didn't really trouble them.

Agree. We had a reasonable break after the Bournemouth game and have effectively played three games at 'home' (including the trip to Bournemouth).

All this waffle about the players being tired at Everton yesterday (This morning's Guardian gave that as an excuse) is a red herring.

Romeu was the only outfield player to play all 3 matches the whole 90 mins and he had just had a fortnight off as he missed the Bournemouth game.

The only two other players who played more than 2 matches were Rodriguez who played the equivalent of 2 matches and 20 mins (and let's face it his season has hardly been arduous) and Ward-Prowse who played for 2 matches and 15 mins.

Fatigue should not have come into especially as two of the matches were at home and we had 10 days off prior to the Spurs game.

It's an error to think that rotation saves legs, in one way it does but losing regularly, not being able to score goals and feeling the confidence draining away going behind, then having to unsuccessfully chase the game has far more effect.

If teams are playing well there is the added confidence, will to win and players wanting to play. I get the feeling through never fielding the strongest team and letting it gel has worn away the will of the best players, always having to suffer regularly a team including squad players that are just not good enough and weaken the team. Our best players will not want to stay they will leave, struggling is not the program they bought into when they signed, especially when they clearly can see the change that would put this right even if the manager won't.

Redmond is a winger and will not get goals regularly and shouldn't be masquerading as a striker, Long and Rodriguez should both play up front together with maybe Sims. Playing Tadic, Boufal and Redmond as attackers won't get goals. The back four is good, Romeu is also, the other two midfielders whoever they are give us nothing in an attacking sense. If Puel wants to play 4-3-3 he needs to play at least one attacker in midfield, Better still get an attacking midfielder, and/or change the system.

I think I'll come back to the forum after our next win - by which time we will be by far the greatest team that the world has ever seen, challenging for Champions league, Puel tactical genius etc etc - the highs and lows eh? ...reasonable perspective is so 2016

Simple fact is that this squad is capable of a fair bit more with a better manager. End of story.

I think I'll come back to the forum after our next win - by which time we will be by far the greatest team that the world has ever seen, challenging for Champions league, Puel tactical genius etc etc - the highs and lows eh? ...reasonable perspective is so 2016

Ok, see you next year then

I think the downside of our many bargain buys etc is that many of our players, and arguably managers like puel, take time to adjust to the premier league. Mane, wanyama , etc were nothing like as good in their first seasons as they later became. I'm hoping Boufal will be better next year, once he has learnt when to try to go past 3 players and when to get rid.

it feels like the same applies to Puel. He started the season with fixed ideas ....eg the diamond , Redmond as a central striker..

and now he's consistently playing 4-3-3, with redmond wide. His record suggests that he should end up a good manager in the EPL, but he isn't good yet. The question is ,how patient are the club going to be? I suspect that unless we drop close to relegation, the answer is 'very'.

Do we think Puel believes we have the players to play 4-3-3? Does he think a midfield three of say, Romeu - Davis - JWP has enough mobility, goals and strength to run a PL game? Both Tadic and Redmond are woeful finishers too, so you are very reliant on your single striker for goals. Fine if it's drogba, not so good if it's Shane Long.

Does he hate the 4-2-3-1?

Do we think Puel believes we have the players to play 4-3-3? Does he think a midfield three of say, Romeu - Davis - JWP has enough mobility, goals and strength to run a PL game? Both Tadic and Redmond are woeful finishers too, so you are very reliant on your single striker for goals. Fine if it's drogba, not so good if it's Shane Long.

Does he hate the 4-2-3-1?

We largely played with a single striker in the 4-2-3-1 under RK.

Let me know if I'm reading this wrong. Are you suggesting we sack Puel because his press conferences are boring, and saying this would be a brave thing to do?

Of course you've read it wrong - the bit about the press conferences was contextual. Anyone with half a modicum of intelligence is surely going to be bored stupid by Puel's monotonous drivel and I keep hearing rumours that he's lost the confidence of a number of players. Blacks reputation is hardly Earth-shattering (other than for the wrong reasons) and it would be of little surprise to find the players are totally underwhelmed and lack inspiration. I don't believe our squad is poor in general (yes, we need more striking options) and very much believe the rotation/style of play is being dictated by the management team. Unless they change then it's only going to get worse. The salient facts (9 goals against in 3 lost matches?) is plain to see.

We largely played with a single striker in the 4-2-3-1 under RK.

Yes, but then we usually had Mane to chip in as well who is a much, much better finisher than Tadic or Redmond and better at stretching teams. I like Boufal, and I think he will do really well for us, but he's a different sort of player than Mane and isn't going to score as often.

When we played the 4231 under Poch we had Jay Rod, in addition to Lambert/Gallagher. Again, a much better finisher than Redmond or Tadic. Perhaps the "answer" going forwards if we stick with a 4-3-3 is to play Rodriguez as one of the wide players with Long/Austin central. That means that two of Redmond, Tadic and Boufal miss out though and seeing as Redmond is apparently the new Thierry Henry/Arjen Robben/Lee Holmes and Boufal is our record signing that probably won't happen.

My feeling is that Puel probably has a mandate to develop a new style from the board, the board recognises this will have teething problems, and the club is reasonably happy if this season isn't exactly stellar. Whether that's the best long-term plan or not remains to be seen. Personally, I want to see a system that has Boufal in a central role and the team built around him. A "standard" 4-3-3 won't really allow that.

I know it's academic, but looking at the replay of Everton's first goal, only Redmond was playing the scorer onside having just stepped back onto the pitch from behind the byline.

If he'd stayed off the pitch, would it have been offside?

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I know it's academic, but looking at the replay of Everton's first goal, only Redmond was playing the scorer onside having just stepped back onto the pitch from behind the byline.

 

If he'd stayed off the pitch, would it have been offside?

 

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Yes, I'm afraid so.

"A defending player who leaves the field of play without the referee’s permission shall be considered to be on the goal line or touchline for the purposes of offside until the next stoppage in play or until the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside their penalty area. If the player left the field of play deliberately, the player must be cautioned when the ball is next out of play.

Read more at http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside#xC7KXCCMYXht3VPK.99"

I know it's academic, but looking at the replay of Everton's first goal, only Redmond was playing the scorer onside having just stepped back onto the pitch from behind the byline.

 

If he'd stayed off the pitch, would it have been offside?

 

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Same thing happened against Swansea the other week. I think it was Dyer who was in the same situation.

As far as I understand it, he should still be considered as playing them on - even if he's off the pitch - ie. deemed to be on the goal line. In theory, you need permission to leave the pitch (accidents notwithstanding) and by "counting" people you stop the farcical situation of someone deliberately stepping off the pitch to avoid an offside. The corollary would be that a striker could stand in the goal mouth behind the line and not be offside!

All this waffle about the players being tired at Everton yesterday (This morning's Guardian gave that as an excuse) is a red herring.

 

Romeu was the only outfield player to play all 3 matches the whole 90 mins and he had just had a fortnight off as he missed the Bournemouth game.

The only two other players who played more than 2 matches were Rodriguez who played the equivalent of 2 matches and 20 mins (and let's face it his season has hardly been arduous) and Ward-Prowse who played for 2 matches and 15 mins.

Fatigue should not have come into especially as two of the matches were at home and we had 10 days off prior to the Spurs game.

I'll always be inclined to trust the scientists and physios on issues of science and physiology. You're ignoring the psychological side of it as well.

I'll always be inclined to trust the scientists and physios on issues of science and physiology. You're ignoring the psychological side of it as well.

what's this?

I've never understood why we got Black. Every manager needs a shrewd, tactically-aware assistant and Black isn't either of those. In fact, I can't believe he serves any useful function.

 

Who chose him?

 

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he speaks French

what's this?

I'd imagine that when you're getting debriefed from one game and psyched for the next within the space of a day or two, it's difficult to be in the exact right mindset, particularly when you've lost the last one.

I'd imagine that when you're getting debriefed from one game and psyched for the next within the space of a day or two, it's difficult to be in the exact right mindset, particularly when you've lost the last one.

you imagine?

ok, cheers

you imagine?

 

ok, cheers

Unlike all the discussion of players' fitness by qualified physios on here! It's clear for all to see that we lacked mental strength in these games. That's highly unusual for us, so I'm thinking of possible explanations.

Unlike all the discussion of players' fitness by qualified physios on here! It's clear for all to see that we lacked mental strength in these games. That's highly unusual for us, so I'm thinking of possible explanations.

that is fine

but no need to throw in an 'imaginary' issue to validate your point

he speaks French

So do I, but I'd be a crap football manager.

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Same thing happened against Swansea the other week. I think it was Dyer who was in the same situation.

 

As far as I understand it, he should still be considered as playing them on - even if he's off the pitch - ie. deemed to be on the goal line. In theory, you need permission to leave the pitch (accidents notwithstanding) and by "counting" people you stop the farcical situation of someone deliberately stepping off the pitch to avoid an offside. The corollary would be that a striker could stand in the goal mouth behind the line and not be offside!

I am indebted for your erudite illumination.

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Same thing happened against Swansea the other week. I think it was Dyer who was in the same situation.

 

As far as I understand it, he should still be considered as playing them on - even if he's off the pitch - ie. deemed to be on the goal line. In theory, you need permission to leave the pitch (accidents notwithstanding) and by "counting" people you stop the farcical situation of someone deliberately stepping off the pitch to avoid an offside. The corollary would be that a striker could stand in the goal mouth behind the line and not be offside!

But you can't take a freekick from behind the goalline so...how would they give one for offside?

that is fine

but no need to throw in an 'imaginary' issue to validate your point

I think he's put forward a valid point. If we're going to dismiss everything on here on the basis of it being opinion not fact, we may as well close the site down.

But you can't take a freekick from behind the goalline so...how would they give one for offside?

The free kick is from where the offside player was, not where the defender was.

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The free kick is from where the offside player was, not where the defender was.

 

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As I read it, the reference was to an attacker going beyond the goal line. Any indirect free kick would then be taken from the nearest point on the edge of the goal area.

I always thought it depended on the circumstance. If a player falls off the pitch as part of his natural movement , it would be offside . If he steps off pitch or doesn't come back on after falling off pitch the goal stands . Maybe wrong , but that's my understanding.

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I always thought it depended on the circumstance. If a player falls off the pitch as part of his natural movement , it would be offside . If he steps off pitch or doesn't come back on after falling off pitch the goal stands . Maybe wrong , but that's my understanding.

 

 

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Not so, this was clarified in The Laws some time ago. The only difference between these two cases is that deliberately stepping off the pitch would result in a yellow card.

All this talk about the possibility of Redmond being offside is ignoring the bigger issue. Watch the replay and you will see every Saints player in our area ball-watching and leaving 3 Everton players unmarked. Schoolboy stuff to allow Valencia to waltz in there and get on to that rebound unchallenged.

All this talk about the possibility of Redmond being offside is ignoring the bigger issue. Watch the replay and you will see every Saints player in our area ball-watching and leaving 3 Everton players unmarked. Schoolboy stuff to allow Valencia to waltz in there and get on to that rebound unchallenged.

I think they were just amazed that Forster saved the initial header

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I am a bit surprised at those who are still quite prepared to accept and defend this whole mediocrity from the Owner, Board

and Manager. Lots of better minds than mine were warning about what might happen after the last summers events. These

people really have the Club at heart and want it to do even better than it has, not go backwards. I am starting to strongly

feel that the Owner and Board have slowly lost interest in Saints and don't care as much as in the past. People just have to

forget about what happened 5 or so years ago - it is no longer important with regard to now and if it was Portsmouth's F.A.

Cup etc history would still be important and they would be in the P.L.

 

Perhaps those who fall over themselves to call people who worry deeply "bedwetters" should just stop pretending to support

Saints and just travel down the M27. They will never be able to convince me that they do in fact have the best will for Saints

but they would fit like a six fingered glove down there amongst that lot. At least Portsmouth supporters are open about their

dislike of Saints and are not acting like a bunch of fifth columnists trying to upset Saints from within.

 

Happy New Year to those that really care about Saints and stuff the rest.

I too have long suspected that Pompey fans have infiltrated this forum pretending to be Saints fans.

All the negative posts about Puel, willing for him to stumble from the very first moment he was appointed. The posters who look to blame any slight downturn in our fortunes on clueless Les and Katrina who are just trying to fleece the club. The way they go quiet when we put in good performances and win. You can almost sense them sulking when we do well. The way they try and stir up dissatisfaction amongst genuine Saints fans given the slightest opportunity.

I agree with you that we do seem to have posters who are like fifth columnists looking to destablise from within. They're called TROLLS, are probably Pompey fans and have been doing this sort of thing for years. At the moment they've spotted a golden opportunity just as they did this time last year and are sticking the boot in on Puel just as they did to Koeman and as they always do to Les and the owners.

Do yourself a favour. Stick them on ignore, support Saints, support Puel, Les and Kat, get behind our club like a true Saints fan and stuff these TROLLS who are constantly trying to stir things up.

Happy New Year.

But other teams manage it without six changes a game, suggesting that we lack fitness and stamina generally.

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Which is exactly the point, if players aren't getting game time then it doesn't take genius to work out that they won't be match fit. It is obvious now from all the red faces and puffing chests that all our players are knackered after about 60 minutes. Because of rotation nobody gets enough time to be fit.

The real price of Puel's flawed philosophy and it's amazing that the other coaches and fitness guys haven't cottoned on.

When are we going to start looking forward to the Norwich game?