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Thread: Defensive midfielder

  1. #1

    Default Defensive midfielder

    The moves of Wanyama from Saints to Spurs and of Kante from Leicester to Chelsea show how incredibly influential the role of defensive midfielder is in today's Premier League. Wanyama never seemed to be fully appreciated by some Saints fans and some even felt that Clattenburg's dodgy red cards meant he was a 'liability'. How wrong they were.

    I think Romeu has proven to be an adequate replacement for Schneiderlin, which is what Clasie was originally bought for, but we really miss having a tough tackling defensive midfielder to break up opposition attacks at the halfway line. Puel has tried Reed in that role but he really isn't in the same class as big Vic. We really need to buy an 'enforcer' in the summer.


    The transfer of the season:

    http://www.football.london/tottenham...tspur-12560221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    The moves of Wanyama from Saints to Spurs and of Kante from Leicester to Chelsea show how incredibly influential the role of defensive midfielder is in today's Premier League. Wanyama never seemed to be fully appreciated by some Saints fans and some even felt that Clattenburg's dodgy red cards meant he was a 'liability'. How wrong they were.

    I think Romeu has proven to be an adequate replacement for Schneiderlin, which is what Clasie was originally bought for, but we really miss having a tough tackling defensive midfielder to break up opposition attacks at the halfway line. Puel has tried Reed in that role but he really isn't in the same class as big Vic. We really need to buy an 'enforcer' in the summer.


    The transfer of the season:

    http://www.football.london/tottenham...tspur-12560221
    Reed isn't in the same class as any decent player. He's just a Les Reed obsession.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    The moves of Wanyama from Saints to Spurs and of Kante from Leicester to Chelsea show how incredibly influential the role of defensive midfielder is in today's Premier League. Wanyama never seemed to be fully appreciated by some Saints fans and some even felt that Clattenburg's dodgy red cards meant he was a 'liability'. How wrong they were.

    I think Romeu has proven to be an adequate replacement for Schneiderlin, which is what Clasie was originally bought for, but we really miss having a tough tackling defensive midfielder to break up opposition attacks at the halfway line. Puel has tried Reed in that role but he really isn't in the same class as big Vic. We really need to buy an 'enforcer' in the summer.


    The transfer of the season:

    http://www.football.london/tottenham...tspur-12560221
    Romeu plays the same role as Wanyama. What we are missing is a Schneiderlin.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Romeu plays the same role as Wanyama. What we are missing is a Schneiderlin.
    Quite. My mind boggles at how Romeu can be viewed as anything other than a midfield bouncer in the Wanyama style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintMB View Post
    Quite. My mind boggles at how Romeu can be viewed as anything other than a midfield bouncer in the Wanyama style.
    Nonsense. Romeu is more than a bouncer: he's silky in possession and tight spaces - he's much more cultured than Wanyama. Where he suffers in comparison to Wanyama is in his mobility and athleticism. Wanayama is far more able to boss a midfield by himself than Romeu.

    The biggest problem is that Clasie has disappointed and he was primarily brought in to replace Morgan.

  6. #6

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    If Romeu gets injured we're ****ed.

  7. #7

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    Wanyama was a much bigger presence in that position.

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    How is this a 'sticky'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suhari View Post
    How is this a 'sticky'?
    This.

    P.S Shurlock is spot on. 100%. (imo)

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    I love Romeu. He's been brilliant.

    The salient point is we've gone from Morgan / Vic / Cork competing for 2 places, to Romeu & Reed competing for 1 place.

    That's a serious weakening.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Nonsense. Romeu is more than a bouncer: he's silky in possession and tight spaces - he's much more cultured than Wanyama. Where he suffers in comparison to Wanyama is in his mobility and athleticism. Wanayama is far more able to boss a midfield by himself than Romeu.

    The biggest problem is that Clasie has disappointed and he was primarily brought in to replace Morgan.
    Agree with this. Clasie, Ward Prowse and Hojbjerg have all been given a chance to fill that role and none of them have been good enough yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suhari View Post
    How is this a 'sticky'?
    yeah what. I thought we must have signed someone on a free or something.....

  13. #13

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    Guess it's put as a sticky by accident...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_SFC View Post
    Agree with this. Clasie, Ward Prowse and Hojbjerg have all been given a chance to fill that role and none of them have been good enough yet.
    Not sure that's quite right we only play with one DM now so Hoj hasn't been asked to play the Morgan role this season. Hoj is clearly meant to be a younger version of Davis to my eyes. I know Koeman tried both Clasie and JWP as DMs last season but neither of them are imo proper DMs. I think Romeu needs a lot of credit to. He is trying to do a job that for the last few seasons has been filled by two holding DMs and I think he has done a decent job of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Where he suffers in comparison to Wanyama is in his mobility and athleticism. Wanayama is far more able to boss a midfield by himself than Romeu.
    He never really had to, in fairness, as he was always played in a two.

    But that's a good article and it can never be repeated enough that Wanyama was our most important player in the time he was here. That partnership with Schneiderlin was the foundation of a top-class team.

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    Imo you can't compare Romeu with Morgan and Victor until he plays in a 2 next to another decent Dm (as they both did), He's been doing a lot of work on his own this season and at times done excellent!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuncanRG View Post
    He never really had to, in fairness, as he was always played in a two.

    But that's a good article and it can never be repeated enough that Wanyama was our most important player in the time he was here. That partnership with Schneiderlin was the foundation of a top-class team.
    Does Romeu play in a one or a three? Sometime it feels like the latter given how conservative Clasie, Davis, JWP etc are. Likewise it would be wrong to say that Wanyama and Schneiderlin were rigid DMs. Schneiderlin would often get quite forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Does Romeu play in a one or a three? Sometime it feels like the latter given how conservative Clasie, Davis, JWP etc are. Likewise it would be wrong to say that Wanyama and Schneiderlin were rigid DMs. Schneiderlin would often get quite forward.
    Obviously Clasie and Ward-Prowse will be close to him sometimes, but Romeu's the only one tasked with shielding the centre halves. Wanyama and Schneiderlin both did that when we were without the ball, though on the occasions Schneiderlin did get forward Davis would normally drop in and cover. At least, that's how I remember it. Now Clasie, JWP et al have to go and cover out wide.

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    Fingers crossed that Romeu doesn't get injured as I don't see that Les Read has lined up an adequate replacement in reserve.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde and Seek View Post
    Fingers crossed that Romeu doesn't get injured as I don't see that Les Read has lined up an adequate replacement in reserve.
    Finger-crossing has been Reed's modus operandi for the past couple of seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    Finger-crossing has been Reed's modus operandi for the past couple of seasons.
    Yeah. Disgraceful he didn't replace Wanyama. Perhaps with a bald guy.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Romeu plays the same role as Wanyama. What we are missing is a Schneiderlin.
    Rubbish, we done okay last year without Schneiderlin. For some reason Wanyama is awfully underrated on here (and by most saints fans in general) but along with Kante is the best holding / defensive midfielder in the country.

    Romeu has been fantastic this year and is our level, wanyama isn't.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see us add in this position in the summer as we look a little think on the ground

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    Would just love to see us play 4231 again, think our squads have always been built for that formation and to try and change it to a two up top/433 isn't working. Why change what was not broken for our last 3 seasons.
    Arsenal, United, Spurs all play 4231, and Everton, but okay Chelsea fair enough to them with their 343.

    Forster
    Cedric Yoshida Stephens Bertrand
    Romeu PEH
    Redmond Tadic Boufal
    Gabbiadini


    Just once can we play this team.

  24. #24

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    Wanyama was the ultimate destroyer in that he was athletic and as strong as an ox (not "the ox"). He had a decent touch and sometimes broke forward too, but his passing was pretty poor. Romeu sometimes gets caught out from a positional perspective, particularly when he's facing his own goal, and doesn't have the same mobility as Wanyama. BUT he had put in some heroic performances this year, never shirks a challenge and is also an accomplished ball player.

    For all our deficiencies this year, it's surprising that the loss of Wanyama is being highlighted when Romeu may run VVD close (or at least be a respectable second) for player of the year if the vote was taken now. I also think Romeu is capable of playing the lone DM in a 3, or even the godforsaken diamond. The problem is that we don't have many (any?!) good options for the two 'shuttle' midfielders, so Romeu is easily exposed unless we play very safe and defensive, thereby sacrificing any potency in attack.

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    IMO Hojbjerg's best performance this season was away at United in the holding role once Romeu went off. Guardiola also saw him as a holding midfielder when we was at Bayern. I think with some more experience he could excel in that role, and right now playing him alongside Romeu in a 4231 is our best bet. Those two and Davis (a good squad player and can help close games out off the bench) are the only midfielders I'd keep. JWP and Clasie should go and Reed sent on loan

  26. #26

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    Totally agree that Hojbjerg shoud be the holding midfielder along side with Romeu. In the last game vs. West Ham, we totally lost in the midfield battle. However, don't ask Hojbjerg to be attacking midfielder. His five shots in Leceister City game without any on target were very embarrassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal Kint View Post
    IMO Hojbjerg's best performance this season was away at United in the holding role once Romeu went off. Guardiola also saw him as a holding midfielder when we was at Bayern. I think with some more experience he could excel in that role, and right now playing him alongside Romeu in a 4231 is our best bet. Those two and Davis (a good squad player and can help close games out off the bench) are the only midfielders I'd keep. JWP and Clasie should go and Reed sent on loan

  27. #27

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    With everyone fit, my ideal would be to see Romeu and Hojbjerg in the holding midfield role to allow Boufal to crack on with creating in the centre ahead of them.

    Boufal freed up to create with Tadic and Redmond out wide and Gabbiadini up top would be the best we could put out from an attacking sense in my opinion.

    Although, in keeping with most of our important players, I imagine Boufal will now face a stretch on the sidelines

  28. #28

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    Essien on a free is a short term option to shore up DMC and support Romeu. JWP and Reed can go on loan to help cover the cost. The Championship will be a good test for them, Saints in their plight need men, not boys I'm afraid.

  29. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    Would just love to see us play 4231 again, think our squads have always been built for that formation and to try and change it to a two up top/433 isn't working. Why change what was not broken for our last 3 seasons.
    Arsenal, United, Spurs all play 4231, and Everton, but okay Chelsea fair enough to them with their 343.

    Forster
    Cedric Yoshida Stephens Bertrand
    Romeu PEH
    Redmond Tadic Boufal
    Gabbiadini


    Just once can we play this team.
    Interesting attacking option.

    What would worry me would be the formation when we are under pressure.

    West Ham had more or less free reign down our right flank on Saturday and Cedric was often isolated

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Essien on a free is a short term option to shore up DMC and support Romeu. JWP and Reed can go on loan to help cover the cost. The Championship will be a good test for them, Saints in their plight need men, not boys I'm afraid.
    Jwp, martina and Stephens need to all go out on loan.

    Hopefully this Caceras chap comes in and could really do with an athletic, strong breaker alongside Romeu. PEH as good as he is, isn't what we need alongside Romeu.

    The likes of Clasie and Jwp get overrun and brushed aside against strong midfields.

    Our defence is more concerning than our poor finishing right now and that simply is because WE HAVE NOT REPLACED WANYAMA & SCHNEIDERULIN, nor PELLE & MANE.

    Thanks Les and KAT

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenue_Saint View Post
    Jwp, martina and Stephens need to all go out on loan.

    Hopefully this Caceras chap comes in and could really do with an athletic, strong breaker alongside Romeu. PEH as good as he is, isn't what we need alongside Romeu.

    The likes of Clasie and Jwp get overrun and brushed aside against strong midfields.

    Our defence is more concerning than our poor finishing right now and that simply is because WE HAVE NOT REPLACED WANYAMA & SCHNEIDERULIN, nor PELLE & MANE.

    Thanks Les and KAT
    Why would Martina need to be sent on loan? He's not a young player that needs to (or can) develop with game time. Either keep or sell him, but the reason he hasn't been sold is because the cover for Cedric (Pied) has a long term injury.

    If the reason our defence is so shaky because we haven't replaced Wanyama or Schneiderlin, how come we have been pretty solid for 1.5 seasons without both of them, and solid for half a season without either of them? It's pretty clear that the reason we have started looking shaky at the back is because we've lost VVD, arguably the best defender in the league, and failed to replace Fonte. It also doesn't help that our goalkeeper doesn't save shots.

    I'm not saying that our midfield doesn't need improving, I totally agree with that view, but it's not the reason we've suddenly started to look dodgy defensively in the space of a month.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by spyinthesky View Post
    Interesting attacking option.

    What would worry me would be the formation when we are under pressure.

    West Ham had more or less free reign down our right flank on Saturday and Cedric was often isolated
    Agree about Cedric being isolated, but isn't the idea with two defensive midfielders that one is always able to push wide and help the full backs?

    I think the bigger risk with that formation would be the gap that opens up between the DMs and the front five. As much as we'd be difficult to break down, we'd also give the ball back to the opposition a lot. Davis is the ideal style of player to play as the third midfielder because he covers a lot of ground and carries the ball from defence to attack well. Unfortunately he feels like such a waste of an attack-minded position because he cannot be relied on to get a decent effort on goal when the chance comes his way.

    I would be tempted to try that formation/lineup (maybe with Boufal central and Tadic left), because IF it works then it's probably our best eleven players on the pitch together, but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't come off for those reasons. We had a similar dilemma with Mane - he was much more effective centrally, but he couldn't play as the lone CF in our set up and he didn't offer enough in his all round game to be relied on as the AM.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Essien on a free is a short term option to shore up DMC and support Romeu. JWP and Reed can go on loan to help cover the cost. The Championship will be a good test for them, Saints in their plight need men, not boys I'm afraid.
    agree - even just to have around the squad... Think how much someone like Reed or Clasie could learn from Essien.

  34. #34

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    I would take Ruben Loftus and put a bid in for Ivanovic aswell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal Kint View Post
    IMO Hojbjerg's best performance this season was away at United in the holding role once Romeu went off. Guardiola also saw him as a holding midfielder when we was at Bayern. I think with some more experience he could excel in that role, and right now playing him alongside Romeu in a 4231 is our best bet. Those two and Davis (a good squad player and can help close games out off the bench) are the only midfielders I'd keep. JWP and Clasie should go and Reed sent on loan
    Agree.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    Why would Martina need to be sent on loan? He's not a young player that needs to (or can) develop with game time. Either keep or sell him, but the reason he hasn't been sold is because the cover for Cedric (Pied) has a long term injury.

    If the reason our defence is so shaky because we haven't replaced Wanyama or Schneiderlin, how come we have been pretty solid for 1.5 seasons without both of them, and solid for half a season without either of them? It's pretty clear that the reason we have started looking shaky at the back is because we've lost VVD, arguably the best defender in the league, and failed to replace Fonte. It also doesn't help that our goalkeeper doesn't save shots.

    I'm not saying that our midfield doesn't need improving, I totally agree with that view, but it's not the reason we've suddenly started to look dodgy defensively in the space of a month.
    agree with some of what you say but if you think that defences work independent to defensive midfielders, we will have to agree to disagree

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenue_Saint View Post
    agree with some of what you say but if you think that defences work independent to defensive midfielders, we will have to agree to disagree
    Of course I don't think that. What I'm saying is we have gone from looking defensively solid (bar a couple of games) for most of the season to looking shaky in the last few games. The defensive midfield hasn't changed in that time, but the centre backs have. Therefore it's more reasonable to identify that as the reason rather than DM.

    Of course, if your argument is that our DM has been terrible all season but VVD is so good that he covers for it and only now is the midfield exposed and costing us goals, I'd have less of an issue with your logic. Wouldn't necessarily agree, but it would be a fair question/argument.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Romeu plays the same role as Wanyama. What we are missing is a Schneiderlin.
    He's playing both Wanyama's and Schneiderlin's roles, which is why ultimately he gets overrun and top teams are able to camp their midfield in our half of the pitch, relatively undisturbed. We've got a plethora of mediocre 'attacking' midfielders who can't shoot and can't tackle, and one of them is usually used alongside Romeu, but does little to help him stop opposition attacks.

  39. #39

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    Surprising how we've not tried going to a 4231 with Romeu and Hojbjerg sitting, with Davis/JWP in front with two wide players and a proper striker.

    Similar to how we set up under Pochettino with a front fluid 4 of Davis Lallana JRod and Lambert.

    -------------Forster
    Cedric Caceres VVD Bertrand
    -------Romeu-Hojbjerg--------
    Redmond---Boufal------Tadic
    -----------Gabbiadini-----------

    Looks a pretty strong first XI that, and maybe you put in Davis or JWP instead of one of the three behind Gabbiadini against the harder opposition.....simple in my eyes....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal Kint View Post
    IMO Hojbjerg's best performance this season was away at United in the holding role once Romeu went off. Guardiola also saw him as a holding midfielder when we was at Bayern. I think with some more experience he could excel in that role, and right now playing him alongside Romeu in a 4231 is our best bet. Those two and Davis (a good squad player and can help close games out off the bench) are the only midfielders I'd keep. JWP and Clasie should go and Reed sent on loan
    I thought Clasie filled in for Romeu and Hojbjerg was further forward?

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    Hojbjerg played well second half v Bournemouth in the Romeu role as well.

    There's clearly a good player in there. I think he has struggled with the weight of expectation at times this season and has almost been trying too hard at times.

    I think he could work as part of a deep two in the long-run.... although we may never play that system again!

  42. #42

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    I would agree that Romeu can't do the screening job on his own. He just doesn't have the mobility for it. Whether it's Hojbjerg, Reed (has he ever been tried alongside Romeu instead of as a replacement for him?) or Clasie, someone needs to provide the legwork and the recovery pace to Romeu's physicality and positional strength.

    In theory that would give a greater platform for the front four to express themselves and the full backs to bomb on.

    - - - - - - - - - - Romeu - - - - Hojbjerg - - - - - - - -

    Redmond - - - Davis/Tadic/Prowse - - - Boufal

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gabbiadini - - - - - -

    Something like that. Apologies for the formatting...

  43. #43

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    I also think Jack Stephens could do an Eric Dier type job in the middle of the park too, if he's not yet trusted to play at the back regularly.

    Comfortable on the ball, plays it simple, and if I'm not mistaken, he played the holding role for Middlesbrough in a famous win at Old Trafford in the League Cup last season. (0 - 0 aet, Boro won on pens)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Garrett View Post
    Surprising how we've not tried going to a 4231 with Romeu and Hojbjerg sitting, with Davis/JWP in front with two wide players and a proper striker.

    Similar to how we set up under Pochettino with a front fluid 4 of Davis Lallana JRod and Lambert.

    -------------Forster
    Cedric Caceres VVD Bertrand
    -------Romeu-Hojbjerg--------
    Redmond---Boufal------Tadic
    -----------Gabbiadini-----------

    Looks a pretty strong first XI that, and maybe you put in Davis or JWP instead of one of the three behind Gabbiadini against the harder opposition.....simple in my eyes....
    This looks spot on to me. I also believe it is just about what any other manager, bar Puel, would do with our squad.

    We really should be playing with 2 DMs; Romeu and Hojbjerg. Anyone with half a football brain can see that PEH's best matches for us have been at DM. There is also a reason why he has only scored 2 senior goals in his career - he is not an attacking midfielder. I do also think that Jack Stephens could be a good option alongside Romeu.

    The line-up above would do two things; give us extra cover in front of the defence (CBs) and give us a fluid attack with four players playing in their best positions.

    If only Puel could see, or better still try, this..........

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minsk View Post
    This looks spot on to me. I also believe it is just about what any other manager, bar Puel, would do with our squad.

    We really should be playing with 2 DMs; Romeu and Hojbjerg. Anyone with half a football brain can see that PEH's best matches for us have been at DM. There is also a reason why he has only scored 2 senior goals in his career - he is not an attacking midfielder. I do also think that Jack Stephens could be a good option alongside Romeu.

    The line-up above would do two things; give us extra cover in front of the defence (CBs) and give us a fluid attack with four players playing in their best positions.

    If only Puel could see, or better still try, this..........
    Yup, that's the best XI in our squad, surely.

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