Hillsborough

been watching the news and there is alot of talk about 'justice fort he 96'................I was what, 10-11 years old at the time but can slightly more older heads tell us if there was a massive government conspiracy against liverpool and liverpool FC.............from what I have seen and read, the police made mistakes but also the liverpool fans acted like thugs and ploughed their way into the ground........are people from liverpool really expected to find out they were not to blame in anyway...?..............I is that wrong...?

If they disclose the full 40k pages and it emerges that the mickeys were in any way in the wrong no doubt there will be a campaign to smear the author of those docs.

I'm keeping an open mind, no one should go to a football match and not come home and I've seen how badly football fans can be treated, however the mickeys do have a reputation for jibbing etc so I'll be interested to see what actually happened!

but also the liverpool fans acted like thugs and ploughed their way into the ground.....

I think this is the key point - if you subscribed to the line of thinking best summed up by the Sun, it was all the fault of those nasty scouse thugs. If, however, you listen to the survivors and eye witnesses, most of the problems were due to poor Policing and stewarding, funneling people down into areas that were already over-full and from which those at the front had no escape due to the fences boxing them in. Also, once the true picture started to emerge, there were, and still are, questions over the response of the Police etc, in failing to open the fences and delays in permitting medical assistance into the ground.

Subsequent the events, there was controversy over the handling and scope of the enquiry and coroner's inquests, specifically over the limiting of these to events prior to 15:15 pm. It is felt up here in the North West that these enquiries were deliberately constrained to avoid 'awkward truths' emerging.

And I remember the day vividly as I was in hospital listening to R5 - waiting for a theatre to be freed for an emergency operation.

As a southener I think any disaster on that scale should have a complete investigation with no set agenda. It should cover the whole thing from before the tragedy occurred to the final 'clean up'. This should all be public, it's the least those souls and their families deserve.

The families of the true fans inside the ground with tickets deserve to know what happened and why but at the same time all those who turned up without tickets and contributed to the poor policing decisions made on the day should be exposed and suffer the same consequences as the Police in charge. They're will always be alot of unanswered questions.

I remember it well, it happened 3 days after I was promoted to CID.

Whilst there were other aggravating factors (motorway accident, fans without tickets turning up) this all took place in an outdated stadium for those times, which was part of an outdated infrastructure that could not get anywhere near to coping with the boom of football's popularity in the late 70s/early 80s. It's so sad this wasn't even the first fatal stadium disaster in this country for the relevant authorities to take notice. A lot of the stadiums back then were death traps even for those times.

From the police's point of view the whole thing was a strategic cock up on a terrifying scale, and I doubt we will ever find out the true extent of it at all, not least until all the authority figures back then are long in their graves. There'll be more information released I suspect but nowhere near enough.

I think the families are looking for the truth of what went down that day, no matter what it is.

Having lived in the city for nigh on 20 years now, Hillsborough remains a highly sensitive issue, and rightly so. If the disaster had affected Saints fans, and we had lost 96 of our supporters, wouldn't we still be seeking answers? Especially if it appeared that the authorities of the day were partly responsible and tried to lay the vast proportion of the blame at the fans in question?

The provenance of the fans doesn't even come into question, and we should take a dim view of anyone that uses their stereotypical view of Liverpudlians as the cause of the problem. We police football matches to ensure public safety. On this particular day, policing utterly failed in this regard.

There have been some good reports on this if you want more background information...

Timeline of events... http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/interactive/2009/apr/13/hillsborough-disaster-police-south-yorkshire-liverpool?INTCMP=SRCH

Articles of the diaster... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/hillsborough-disaster

It is a shame that there has been no conclusion to the disaster which seemed to have stemed from a combination of factors - fans behaviour, infrastucture, policing decisions, lack of leadership vary than one single factor.

I can recall that when we played Liverpool at the Dell in those days, the Archers would be practically empty ten minutes before kick off (with the Winston doing great business) but by three o'clock it was full. I was not surprised that there was a last minute rush to get into the ground at Hillsborough either, it seemed to be the Liverpool way of going to a match.

are people from liverpool really expected to find out they were not to blame in anyway...?

When faced with any kind of queue it's human nature to push and shove and try to force your way forwards. You should see me in Tesco. The police are entirely to blame if they fail to prevent me from doing this, also the people in front of me are a bit to blame for selfishly getting in my way.

Scousers are as bad as Catholics in Ulster complaining about incidents during the troubles. Boris Johnson was spot on in his article in the spectator:

people in Liverpool "cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance about the rest of society".

Liverpudlians "wallow" in their "victim status", it is part of the "deeply unattractive psyche" of many in the city.

I was working abroad with a lot of Scousers when it happened and it had a massive effect on them, both red and blue. Some of the guys had friends and family at the game, and the whole expat community came together to raise money for the victims.

My personal view is that the police/autherities covered a lot up. That the police policed football without a thought to public safety, just public order.However,football supporters from most clubs contributed to the police's attitudes by misbehaving regulary.

The climate at the time was one of the reasons for this diaster.

The main cause of the disaster was not the police nor those 'thugs' who didn't have a ticket etc etc.

It was the simple fact that there were solid 10 foot high metal fences caging the scousers in. That is really all that needs to be 'investigated'. Sorry if that sounds callous to the victims' families but surely they can see that it was this inanimate construction which is really to blame. Yes, I know that all would have been fine if the numbers had indeed been restricted but ultimately if the fence wasn't there then no one would have died, the game would have been postponed and people would still buy the Sun on Merseyside.

It was a truly horrific disaster. The most important lesson was quickly learned: fences are now outlawed in English grounds. Again, I know this is a sensitive subject but really, what good will it do to rake up the muck again? The coppers are all retired, the stadium officials and FA officials are long gone too.

Sometimes it really is best to just move on, even if with a heavy heart.

The Taylor report blamed the police and exonerated the mickey mousers.

I've no love of the bin dippers but in their quest for the truth they deserve every fans support.

The Taylor report blamed the police and exonerated the mickey mousers.

 

I've no love of the bin dippers but in their quest for the truth they deserve every fans support.

I just am not really one for conspiracy/cover up theories. It was a tragic, tragic disaster. Could it have been prevented? Yes. Should it? Yes. Should those fences have been there with hindsight? No. Are are football fans now much safer as a direct consequence of the disaster? Yes, lessons have been well learned. Honestly can not believe that anyone in the police/FA/Wednesday tried to hide evidence the first time round.

Sometimes tragic accidents do happen. I only hope we don't have another enquiry into Diana's death in another ten years too.

I just am not really one for conspiracy/cover up theories. It was a tragic, tragic disaster. Could it have been prevented? Yes. Should it? Yes. Should those fences have been there with hindsight? No. Are are football fans now much safer as a direct consequence of the disaster? Yes, lessons have been well learned. Honestly can not believe that anyone in the police/FA/Wednesday tried to hide evidence the first time round.

 

Sometimes tragic accidents do happen. I only hope we don't have another enquiry into Diana's death in another ten years too.

That Bernard Ingham connived with Kelvin McKenzie I have no doubt. That they attempted to deflect blame I have no doubt, that awful mistakes were made I have no doubt.

Hopefully full disclosure of all the documentation will be forthcoming and we can see what really happened.

The Hillsborough Independent Panel and families to see all Government documents, full disclosure, no redactions.

Version released to the public will be redacted to protect junior officials and specifics about victims.

Debate on Beeb now

Whilst I find the scousers' wallowing a bit tiresome I don't think there is any harm in releasing all the facts.

Don't really see the point though, it was fairly obvious what happened and whilst it was a police cock up the p!ssed up scousers contributed to the disaster.

I hope there is no witch hunt after the info is released, the plod didn't want it to happen.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

I just get the impression that the Liverpool fans are not blameless entirely, though a lot of small incidents contributed to disaster which were avoidable, had the right stewarding/policing/safety measures taken place.

Anyway... what was the deal with the Heysel disaster as well?

Whilst I find the scousers' wallowing a bit tiresome I don't think there is any harm in releasing all the facts.

 

Don't really see the point though, it was fairly obvious what happened and whilst it was a police cock up the p!ssed up scousers contributed to the disaster.

 

I hope there is no witch hunt after the info is released, the plod didn't want it to happen.

The disclosed evidence will show that they have been very hard done by. I have a lot of respect for them for toughing it out and not taking no for an answer.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

 

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

It's not just about that, is it?

It's about a concerted effort to shift the blame from the police to the fans and treating the bereaved as criminals. This is something that affected everyone at the stadium. The police failed in their duties entirely, then blamed it on the fans to save their careers, passing lies to the media to turn public opinion by those traumatised in the disaster, eagerly swallowed by the gullible.

I personally don't think you know the first thing about scousers, save what you've seen on Bread, Brookie or Harry Enfield.

The main cause of the disaster was not the police nor those 'thugs' who didn't have a ticket etc etc.

 

It was the simple fact that there were solid 10 foot high metal fences caging the scousers in. That is really all that needs to be 'investigated'. Sorry if that sounds callous to the victims' families but surely they can see that it was this inanimate construction which is really to blame. Yes, I know that all would have been fine if the numbers had indeed been restricted but ultimately if the fence wasn't there then no one would have died, the game would have been postponed and people would still buy the Sun on Merseyside.

 

It was a truly horrific disaster. The most important lesson was quickly learned: fences are now outlawed in English grounds. Again, I know this is a sensitive subject but really, what good will it do to rake up the muck again? The coppers are all retired, the stadium officials and FA officials are long gone too.

 

Sometimes it really is best to just move on, even if with a heavy heart.

So not much to do with coppers directing thousands of fans down one narrow tunnel to one stand, that ended up with nearly double the amount of fans that was deemed safe? Or the failure to routinely place coppers at the exit of the tunnel/entrance to the pens to divert fans into the side pens to avoid a crush?

Besides thousands of stadiums had and still have cages surrounding the pitch that have hosted thousands and thousands of high profile football matches completely safely. A lot of the stadiums may have been death traps back then but the cages certainly weren't the only reason as to why that was the case.

As for the coppers all being retired, I first joined the police force 7 years before Hillsborough and had to take early retirement from the force only two years ago. I wouldn't mind betting quite a few of the coppers who were there are still in the force today. And if they are all credit to them.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

 

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

But they didn't just make stupid decisions. They failed to even do basic crowd control practices in advance of the game. There'd have been a serious risk of death and injury if only ticket holders had turned up. A lot of fans were late due to unannounced roadworks on the motorway and it was clear the top men directing things had no idea what was happening on the ground. People were dying in the pens and there were still a load of coppers in full view of it still putting up a cordon between the Liverpool and Nottingham fans. Unfortunately I suspect a lot of the junior officers had the choice of either taking orders or saving coppers. I wouldn't mind betting the copper who ran on the pitch to get the ref to stop the game disobeyed orders to do so.

There were many aggravating factors but the police's operation was a logistical and strategic disaster. You just have to read eye witness accounts to know that routine safety measures weren't even being implemented full stop as the first fans arrived at the stadium

The disclosed evidence will show that they have been very hard done by. I have a lot of respect for them for toughing it out and not taking no for an answer.

I don't blame them for wanting to know all the facts.

I wonder what their reaction will be though if the facts also point the finger of blame to their fellow scousers pushing outside?

Many people miss the point on all this. So what if some Liverpool fans turned up without tickets or misbehaved? That is what the police are paid for, too control the crowd, if that wasn't an issue, the police wouldn't have been paid to be there. Its the same as going to a music festival - the people in charge of running security don't control the crowd properly, let far too many in, then as people are slowly crushed to death, fail to react and fail to adequately deal with the casualties, then it appears that the authorities have covered up what had happened - wouldn't you expect a fair and open enquiry? Put the fact that it is football to one side for a moment and have a decent read of the way the authorities carried themselves on this day and those that followed.

I'm no fan of Scousers and they love a moan and love to make out they're "different", but you can't call them on this one. Fair play for persisting and fair play for ensuring that the families of those killed get some answers from the authorities charged with protecting their safety at the game.

I don't blame them for wanting to know all the facts.

 

I wonder what their reaction will be though if the facts also point the finger of blame to their fellow scousers pushing outside?

The "facts" were established by Lord Justice Taylor. He blamed the police and fences, not the bin dippers.

This is about getting other documents released, which will, I believe, show collusion between the Number 10 press office and Wapping post Hillsborough.

Those of us old enough to remember the headlines understand why no one on Merseyside buys the Sun.

I don't blame them for wanting to know all the facts. I wonder what their reaction will be though if the facts also point the finger of blame to their fellow scousers pushing outside?

Depends on how large that is presented in the context of all the other evidence. Remember that this disclosure will also cast light on events after the disaster, such as the attempts by South Yorkshire Police to shift the blame onto the fans.

Many people miss the point on all this. So what if some Liverpool fans turned up without tickets or misbehaved? That is what the police are paid for, too control the crowd, if that wasn't an issue, the police wouldn't have been paid to be there. Its the same as going to a music festival - the people in charge of running security don't control the crowd properly, let far too many in, then as people are slowly crushed to death, fail to react and fail to adequately deal with the casualties, then it appears that the authorities have covered up what had happened - wouldn't you expect a fair and open enquiry? Put the fact that it is football to one side for a moment and have a decent read of the way the authorities carried themselves on this day and those that followed.

 

I'm no fan of Scousers and they love a moan and love to make out they're "different", but you can't call them on this one. Fair play for persisting and fair play for ensuring that the families of those killed get some answers from the authorities charged with protecting their safety at the game.

there we have it....passing the buck.

don't get me wrong, I'm sure the police fuked up royally...they must have as so much has changed since then but like anything..if a large crowd wants to do something what is going to stop them...

just like when saints fans ran on the pitch against burnley...how can they be stopped...who's fault was that if someone got seriously injured...

there we have it....passing the buck.

don't get me wrong, I'm sure the police fuked up royally...they must have as so much has changed since then but like anything..if a large crowd wants to do something what is going to stop them...

 

just like when saints fans ran on the pitch against burnley...how can they be stopped...who's fault was that if someone got seriously injured...

Talk about miss the point.

I would suggest you look at the Taylor report. That should put to bed The Sun myths that you seem to believe.

there we have it....passing the buck.

don't get me wrong, I'm sure the police fuked up royally...they must have as so much has changed since then but like anything..if a large crowd wants to do something what is going to stop them...

 

just like when saints fans ran on the pitch against burnley...how can they be stopped...who's fault was that if someone got seriously injured...

The "facts" were established by Lord Justice Taylor. He blamed the police and fences, not the bin dippers.

 

This is about getting other documents released, which will, I believe, show collusion between the Number 10 press office and Wapping post Hillsborough.

 

Those of us old enough to remember the headlines understand why no one on Merseyside buys the Sun.

Lord Justice Taylor had to come to that conclusion because the Police are responsible for crowd control, so if there are deaths they have to take the blame.

The behavour of the fans outside obviously led to the doors being opened. We've all been in situations like that before, some people act sensibly, some people act like ***ts and push and barge. Take out the ***ts and lots of people waiting to get in a football game is not a problem.

Scousers are as bad as Catholics in Ulster complaining about incidents during the troubles. Boris Johnson was spot on in his article in the spectator:

 

people in Liverpool "cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance about the rest of society".

 

Liverpudlians "wallow" in their "victim status", it is part of the "deeply unattractive psyche" of many in the city.

Troller is looking for a response...ANY response, and he will chum the waters with complaints, insults, compliments, and inflammatory tidbits hoping that someone...ANYONE, will take the bait. Generally quite harmless - practices a form of catch and release. Nonetheless, he can upset the delicate ecology of a discussion forum. Once a forum becomes aware of his presence, however, all feeding activity ceases and Troller must move on to more promising waters.

Actually Andrew I was about to say that if anyone is interested the subject is currently being debated at westminster live on bbcc parliament.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

 

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

It's this type of thoroughly ignorant comment that make it such a good thing that all information is due to be released, so that the actual facts are known rather than a reliance on second hand, unreliable accusations.

The Taylor Report has already dealt with the accusation that hordes of drunk fans without tickets were responsible for the terrible scenes that day; in actual fact the amount of people in the Leppings Lane end during the crush was still far below its capacity, and Taylor commented in his report that most fans "were not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". So the Taylor Report therefore throughly rejected the claims that there were a significant amount of fans there without tickets and that drunkenness also played a major part.

if the police had put proper crowd controls in place outside of the ground the disaster would never have happened.

The police knew how to do this.

They knew that the Leppings lane terrace was a smallish area, with fences.

They knew there was a chance that people might arrive late.

It was their job, they had plenty of time and expertise to plan for it.

They failed.

Christ, just discovered this.

Deeply disturbing live footage of the Valley Parade disaster in '85

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11UP99uHMuI&feature=related

All caused by a discarded fag end.

The bloke at 5:50 didn't make it.

At the end of the day lives were lost and it does not matter one bit where in the country or world they were from, the question is why were they lost.

The fences were put in place to stop the hooligan element of the 70's and 80's and led to what happened at Hillsborough, to say that the scousers are to blame on what little we all know is plain wrong - without seeing the police reports which we may never see.

I was 21 when this happened I have a friend who had a ticket for the leppings lane end and would of been in the middle of that but for the grace of god he could not go in the end, I am a football fan and thinking back to that day it could of been anybody - including us or members of our families.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/

if the police had put proper crowd controls in place outside of the ground the disaster would never have happened.

The littany of errors made by the police (as highlighted in the Taylor Report) was in no way confined to only outside the ground. As I've said above, the amount of people inside the ground was well below the capacity of the stand. However, as well as the well publicised catalogue of errors outside the ground (opening of side gates, stupidly low number of turnstiles, opening of the main exit gates) there were a number of failures that occurred inside the ground that massively contributed to the disaster. No police officers or stewards were stationed within the stands (when they usually were for football games at Hillsborough) to physically block access to the full central pens and force fans to enter the vacant side pens. It is questions such as why were so many of these regular procedures ignored/missed, why there were zero police officers or stewards inside the stand that day, questions that have never been answered, that there is such a clamour for all information to be released and why it can only be a good thing that finally this information will enter the public domain.

Only common theme here seems to be blaming one group. Some blame police, some scousers, some the stadia of the time. Fairly obvious it's a combination of all 3. The info released will show which proportion of each, but people still seem to need to simplify it all and blame just one party. Some people just seem generally anti-police and can't separate between actions of some police officers and actions of the whole police. Besides, it would only be a comment on the police of that time anyway, not now. I only defend them as it seems senseless to always slag off people doing such a tough, sometimes impossible but always necessary job.

You're correct about the general misconceptions flying around. But i don't agree with your assertion that the disaster relied on a combination of all three to have happened. The Taylor Report has already identified where the fault level lie, and the failure of police control was found as the official cause of the disaster. The poor design of the stadium and also the behaviour of the fans were seen as exacerbating the disaster rather than being a cause in themselves. So yes, I'd agree, while there is a sense of blame being apportioned, this disaster simply wouldn't have happened without a massive catalogue of failures by the police. Yet you only have to look through this thread to see that there is still a massive amount of misinformation being peddled about the actual cause of what happened, so if the release of all information goes some way to redress this balance then I'm glad that can happen.

Only common theme here seems to be blaming one group. Some blame police, some scousers, some the stadia of the time. Fairly obvious it's a combination of all 3. The info released will show which proportion of each, but people still seem to need to simplify it all and blame just one party. Some people just seem generally anti-police and can't separate between actions of some police officers and actions of the whole police. Besides, it would only be a comment on the police of that time anyway, not now. I only defend them as it seems senseless to always slag off people doing such a tough, sometimes impossible but always necessary job.

I'd have to disagree on this. The Taylor report has cited policing failures as the cause of the disaster. That's not even in question at this point.

The problem is that a number of people in official positions deliberately put their own interests before the public, choosing to run smear campaigns to discredit the bereaved and fellow fans instead of admitting their own culpability.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

 

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

Agree with you Alpine.

Agree with you Alpine.

in which case you disagree with the findings of the Taylor Report, and what actually happened that day.

I think there is an apportionment of what contributed to the disaster has to go to all parties involved.

First the FA for giving Leppings Lane end to the Liverpool supporters. Given the support levels of both the clubs (Liverpool being the bigger club than Forrest) it would have been more sensible to allocate the kop end (which has a larger capacity) to the scoucers.

Then there's the fences. These were a major factor in creating an unsafe environment. But why did we have these? because of how fans behaved at the time during the 1980's.

The fans themselves. If thousands of fans had not turned up ticketless trying to force their way in then this whole disaster would have been averted. It riles me that these fans are looking for someone [police, government etc] to blame when they should own up to the fact that they way the fans behaved in trying to get into the ground at all costs regardless of whether they had a ticket was a major contributor to the disaster. Why does duty of care only apply to the police. We are all have a responsibililty for duty of care.

Finally the police. They f***ed up big time. They should never have opened gate C to allow the fans through and if they had no alternative they should have ensured that they could have distributed the fans through the other pens and blocked off 3 & 4 which were already over crowded. Also there should have been better commincation to the other police who could have reacted better to the situation. But lets not forget as a result of the behaviour of fans through the 1980's the police policed matches not with a duty of care to general public saftey - they did it with hooliganism in mind.

It is easy with hindsight to see where things went wrong and we should address the issues that contributed to the event so we can learn from the errors that were made but to blame anyone or any body for it is insane and utterly pointless. Grounds were set up like they were, fans acted like they did, and police policed matches in the manner they did all because of the environment of football matches in that era.

People should let go, move on but not forget those 96 that perrished in one of British footall worst tragedy's.

If thousands of fans had not turned up ticketless trying to force their way in then this whole disaster would have been averted. It riles me that these fans are looking for someone [police, government etc] to blame when they should own up to the fact that they way the fans behaved in trying to get into the ground at all costs regardless of whether they had a ticket was a major contributor to the disaster. Why does duty of care only apply to the police. We are all have a responsibililty for duty of care.

F*ck me, this is getting ridiculous.

This was an accusation that was made at the time; an accusation that was refuted by the Taylor Report. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. There weren't thousands of fans there without tickets; by Taylor's report there were no significant numbers without tickets. And by all monitoring evidence used, the amount of fans inside the stand at the time of the crush was judged to be below the official capacity of the stand. The complete failure of police control (the official cause of the disaster according to Taylor) meant that far too many fans were directed into the central pens, while the pens at the side remained nearly empty. That is what caused the crush, not there being too many fans there.

You said it yourself: "People should let go, move on but not forget those 96 that perrished in one of British footall worst tragedy's." It's rather difficult to do that when people such as yourself still peddle such ridiculous, untrue accusations about everything that happened. The release of all information will hopefully go some way to correct that, so that accusations such as yours can be given the short shrift they deserve.

So not much to do with coppers directing thousands of fans down one narrow tunnel to one stand, that ended up with nearly double the amount of fans that was deemed safe? Or the failure to routinely place coppers at the exit of the tunnel/entrance to the pens to divert fans into the side pens to avoid a crush?

 

Besides thousands of stadiums had and still have cages surrounding the pitch that have hosted thousands and thousands of high profile football matches completely safely. A lot of the stadiums may have been death traps back then but the cages certainly weren't the only reason as to why that was the case.

 

As for the coppers all being retired, I first joined the police force 7 years before Hillsborough and had to take early retirement from the force only two years ago. I wouldn't mind betting quite a few of the coppers who were there are still in the force today. And if they are all credit to them.

you mistake my point. I said that errors were avoidable. But the real, undeniable reason for the deaths was the cage. Period. End of story. There is no debate here. If the cage was not there the police could have had the pied-piper lead the whole of Merseyside through that tunnel and no one would have died. They would have just gone on the pitch.

And just because some stadia still have cages and no deaths occur does not mean that the cage in the Leppings Lane stand was not the reason that 96 people died. That is faulty logic.

in which case you disagree with the findings of the Taylor Report, and what actually happened that day.

If the liverpool fans had been waiting in an orderly queue outside the ground do you think the police would have opened the gates?

I remember seeing the footage, it was like a big rugby scrum, hence the crush on the outside. The police have to take the blame because large crowds behave like @rseholes, Taylor couldn't attribute blame to the crowd because that's the nature of football crowds. That doesn't mean they didn't contribute to what happened.

I'm not having a dig at scousers, that could easily have been a large, drunk, impatient Saints crowd.

you mistake my point. I said that errors were avoidable. But the real, undeniable reason for the deaths was the cage. Period. End of story. There is no debate here. If the cage was not there the police could have had the pied-piper lead the whole of Merseyside through that tunnel and no one would have died. They would have just gone on the pitch.

 

And just because some stadia still have cages and no deaths occur does not mean that the cage in the Leppings Lane stand was not the reason that 96 people died. That is faulty logic.

You have a point in a way; but it's akin to saying that the overwhelming fault of any driving accident is that the person was driving at the time. It fails to address any other reasons for what may have had more effect in causing the crash in the first place.

Sometimes there is an acceptable level of risk, and if a significant number of other procedures had been carried out as they should have been, the crush wouldn't have happened. Yes, the fences were a contributing factor to the amount of deaths, you'd be completely daft to suggest otherwise. But it doesn't stop that fact that it required a complete catastrophe of wrong decision making and lack of correct procedures and mistakes being made to eventually lead to that scenario.

If the liverpool fans had been waiting in an orderly queue outside the ground do you think the police would have opened the gates?

 

I remember seeing the footage, it was like a big rugby scrum, hence the crush on the outside. The police have to take the blame because large crowds behave like @rseholes, Taylor couldn't attribute blame to the crowd because that's the nature of football crowds. That doesn't mean they didn't contribute to what happened.

 

I'm not having a dig at scousers, that could easily have been a large, drunk, impatient Saints crowd.

I've never said the crowd are not responsible in a small way; however, I keep referring to the Taylor Report as that is the official investigation and relies on much more factual information than any of us have ever seen. That says that the behaviour of the fans exacerbated the problem rather than were the cause. So yes, of course, if they's been in a nice line outside you'd hope the gates wouldn't have been opened. The fact that it was such a scrum outside though once again leads to the official cause of the disaster, a failure of police control.

Oh, and your drunk comment, I'll refer you to my first pots in this thread; Taylor refuted the blame being apportioned to drunken Liverpool fans.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ?

 

Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

Agree with you Alpine.

in which case you disagree with the findings of the Taylor Report, and what actually happened that day.

You shouldn't - the two disasters are not interlinked in the factors that directly caused them. In the case of Hillsborough the disaster was caused by human failure(s), as Kraken above stated - see the Taylor report. Heysel was caused by the stadium itself failing - two completely different things.

I think you'll find that if you read the report into the Heysel Stadium - there were actually concerns raised about holding a major sporting event at the venue due to its delapidated state. Although football related tragedies - their main causes are fundementally different.