Dave's Maggie Moment

It's about time we stood up to the European idiots again.

Is this a "what did the EU ever do for us" thread...?

So Britain's policy is now being determined by a small group of right wing Tory xenophobes. Cameron isn't necessarily acting in Britain's interests, he's acting to try to preserve his own position in a divided party.

Cameron appears to me to be as wishy washy as a certain Neville Chamberlaine.

So Britain's policy is now being determined by a small group of right wing Tory xenophobes. Cameron isn't necessarily acting in Britain's interests, he's acting to try to preserve his own position in a divided party.

50 billion in taxation from the city is worth defending you fool. Furthermore if and when Europe introduce a transaction tax it will bring more business to the UK. Ireland for example has low taxation which has resulted in some companies leaving Britain for there - they might well come back now.

50 billion in taxation from the city is worth defending you fool. Furthermore if and when Europe introduce a transaction tax it will bring more business to the UK. Ireland for example has low taxation which has resulted in some companies leaving Britain for there - they might well come back now.

I'm not a fool, but neither am I blinkered. You cannot be a member of a club, and then stand in the doorway trying to destabilise it at every opportunity. Our economy is so tightly bound into trading with Europe that we have to be able to influence what happens with the Euro - as far as the rest of the world is concerned we are 'in' and we will be treated accordingly, regardless of how isolationist we pretend to be. The ONLY solution to this issue is a referendum, but nobody in Westminster is willing to risk this - the Tories for fear of a 'yes' vote, and the LDs and Labour for fear of a 'no'.

The only funny thing about the current situation is remembering Alex Salmond's comments on an independent Scotland being able to operate "like Ireland or Iceland, on the edge of the EU".

I'm not a fool, but neither am I blinkered. You cannot be a member of a club, and then stand in the doorway trying to destabilise it at every opportunity. Our economy is so tightly bound into trading with Europe that we have to be able to influence what happens with the Euro - as far as the rest of the world is concerned we are 'in' and we will be treated accordingly, regardless of how isolationist we pretend to be. The ONLY solution to this issue is a referendum, but nobody in Westminster is willing to risk this.

You are a fool and you are blinkered. To completely discount the value that the city brings to our economy is utterly foolish.

We're still fully paid up members of a 27 member European Union.

We therefore still maintain a strong influence on this subset group of 17 members that want to forge closer and centralised fiscal controls over taxation etc.

Most organisations have sub-groups, NATO for example.

It's a perfectly natural operating model for a large organisation.

Just a humble opinion of course.

Glad that our Prime Minister has made a stand. The Euro is something our economy is dependant on but it is a terrible idea executed dreadfully, there is no point damaging ourselves further by conceeding more of our own independance to prop it up!

Times are going to be difficult short term whatever the outcome, as such there can be no immediate right answer. Longer term though this will give us better flexibility and options to act. As such that can only be a good thing.

You are a fool and you are blinkered. To completely discount the value that the city brings to our economy is utterly foolish.

Yep, let's discount the cost of bailing out Northern Rock, RBS, and the mess that Lloyd's has become, let alone potentially the deepest recesssion since the Wall Street Crash, due the the City and it's trading of non-existent commodities and bundles of debt.

Glad that our Prime Minister has made a stand. The Euro is something our economy is dependant on but it is a terrible idea executed dreadfully, there is no point damaging ourselves further by conceeding more of our own independance to prop it up!

 

Times are going to be difficult short term whatever the outcome, as such there can be no immediate right answer. Longer term though this will give us better flexibility and options to act. As such that can only be a good thing.

All very true, but because it's a nasty Tory chap at the helm, it's gotta be seen as a bad decision. If this had been Gordon Brown in his hay day (chuckle) it would have been hailed a masterstroke...

Only kidding folks...

Yep, let's discount the cost of bailing out Northern Rock, RBS, and the mess that Lloyd's has become, let alone potentially the deepest recesssion since the Wall Street Crash, due the the City and it's trading of non-existent commodities and bundles of debt.

And not forgetting the average man in the street who took advantage of the banks' wafting of easy money in front of their noses

And not forgetting the average man in the street who took advantage of the banks' wafting of easy money in front of their noses

I'm sure that's not what brought Lehman's down, and nearly crashed Goldman Sachs. Some of the financial models were so complicated that nobody really knew how they operated, and they had no idea as to the true content and worth of the 'junk' they exchanged, nor even who ultimately 'owned' responsibility for it.

Not a difficult decision for him to take at all, so I would'nt even put him down in the same league as Maggie...

The test for him now ( and I beleive this decision to be correct by the way), is to maintain this stance while still ensuring British influence holds some sway.

Well done Cameron! Best move he has made since he came to power. I am ecstatic about this. We showed we would not be bullied into letting the French and Germans take charge of our country because of their failed Euro experiment. I am proud to be British today.

And not forgetting the average man in the street who took advantage of the banks' wafting of easy money in front of their noses

When you've got the one eyed idiot proclaiming an end to boom and bust some stupid people will believe it. Banking is essentially professional gambling, and the problem has been that they took odds against punts thinking they were safer than they actually were.

Glad that our Prime Minister has made a stand. The Euro is something our economy is dependant on but it is a terrible idea executed dreadfully, there is no point damaging ourselves further by conceeding more of our own independance to prop it up!

 

Times are going to be difficult short term whatever the outcome, as such there can be no immediate right answer. Longer term though this will give us better flexibility and options to act. As such that can only be a good thing.

Yep. Been saying that for ages but the pro Euro lot won't accept it!

Let is collapse. That will be the best thing that could happen.

Max King of Investec was speaking on Radio 4 yesterday and said:

the dissolution of the euro will be a hiccup, and could be extremely positive for much of Europe: promoting growth across the strait-jacketed southern economies as their lack of competitiveness is addressed, thereby fuelling renewed global growth.

Of course the Germans would hate this to happen as they would then have to deal with a strong currency....

There is a great email on the BBC site that sums it up perfectly:

It amazes me that we are held as the "bad apple" of Europe. This crisis came about because the single currency was a flawed idea from the outset, (without centralised fiscal policy how can you have a single currency) and that is the reason UK didn't join. Now once the plot unfolds and these arguments are proven we are asked to contribute to a rescue of the EU and, by doing so cutting our own throats.

And another:

The UK is "as isolated as somebody who refused to join the Titanic just before it sailed" following treaty veto, says

As Karl Marx said, those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it - the second time as farce. This time it's not a two-way split but three. Septic Tories to the right of him, demanding referendums he can't possibly give; Euro-fan Tories and Lib Dems to the left scowling at his face-saving posturing that is about as effective as tilting at windmills.

As before, it'll be the ruin of Dave and his Bullingdon chums.

As Karl Marx said, those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it - the second time as farce. This time it's not a two-way split but three. Septic Tories to the right of him, demanding referendums he can't possibly give; Euro-fan Tories and Lib Dems to the left scowling at his face-saving posturing that is about as effective as tilting at windmills.

 

As before, it'll be the ruin of Dave and his Bullingdon chums.

Rubbish. It'd be the making of the Conservatives for the simple reason that we in Britain don't consider ourselves European. We consider ourselves to be British and we don't want our sovereignty eroded.

An anti European stance is a vote winner.

Rubbish. It'd be the making of the Conservatives for the simple reason that we in Britain don't consider ourselves European. We consider ourselves to be British and we don't want our sovereignty eroded.

 

An anti European stance is a vote winner.

It's also the right choice. As the man said above, the Euro fails and the answer is to become even closer to Europe? That makes little sense.

We consider ourselves to be British

Apart from the Scots and the Welsh of course (supposedly)

We're still fully paid up members of a 27 member European Union.

 

We therefore still maintain a strong influence on this subset group of 17 members that want to forge closer and centralised fiscal controls over taxation etc.

 

Most organisations have sub-groups, NATO for example.

 

It's a perfectly natural operating model for a large organisation.

 

Just a humble opinion of course.

IF the 17 members form a tightly bound group where the members share economic policy decisions, have to present their budgets for approval to the Commission and bring their taxation and budgetary policies into lockstep; do you not think that the 11 members on the fringe will be marginalised?

Or do you think that the 17 central members of a more tightly-bound, risk-sharing, economically harmonised group would always be on the lookout for ways that they could help those independent Brits?

I'm not arguing against Cameron's move per se. And if I look at all the pressures on him as Prime Minister as well as the leader of the Tory party, I'm not sure he had much choice. But to think this is having your cake and eating it is a little naive in my opinion.

Fog in Channel, Continent cut off?

I best SaintAndy is upset at this news and believes it to be the end of the world...

Rubbish. It'd be the making of the Conservatives for the simple reason that we in Britain don't consider ourselves European. We consider ourselves to be British and we don't want our sovereignty eroded. An anti European stance is a vote winner.

I'm an Englishman first and a Britain second...

It's also the right choice. As the man said above, the Euro fails and the answer is to become even closer to Europe? That makes little sense.

It makes perfect sense for the Germans. They fought and lost two world wars trying to achieve supremacy. If we'd caved in to their plan for a European superstate controlled by them they'd have finally achieved dominance.

I best SaintAndy is upset at this news and believes it to be the end of the world...

I expect he's currently crying over his readybrek.

What we really need to be doing now is rebuilding bridges with the commonwealth. We must increase our global trade and reduce our exposure to Europe.

IF the 17 members form a tightly bound group where the members share economic policy decisions, have to present their budgets for approval to the Commission and bring their taxation and budgetary policies into lockstep; do you not think that the 11 members on the fringe will be marginalised?

No, the European Commission rules themselves prevent this sort of thing happening (sub-groups going off and doing their own thing to the detriment of other member states and without accountability to the EU as a whole).....ah....doh....I see what you mean.... ;-)

I'm with Dune and Hypo on this one... smarmy Dave has indeed stood up for what he believes is in Britains best interests.... Now whether you actually believe his opinion on whats is in Britains best interests is another matter. Thing about all this which is so worrying is the decision he is making is not one in which even his own party all agree on... becuase the biggest problem the Tories have in all this is their inability to seperate two key issues - one of the economic challenge, one of the old school Tory obsession with sovereignty... its gets the poor souls all in a muddle.. pulling in different directions.

The issues need to be differentiated if anyone wants a proper debate about the EU. The sovereignty issue shoudl have nothing to do with it - thats going to be your personal opoinion, whetehr you are obsessed with a nationalistic independence or whetehr you recognise that its kind of irrelevent in the grand scheme of things - afterall, no one publicises or even hears about legislation in Europe that IS in our benefit - makes no story... and to be honest, borders are artificial and transient in the grand scheme of things anyway over a grander timeframe... total ****** issue.

So what is best for teh UK economically? Well for every 'expert' that says stay in, you can find one that says come out, and as is typical of making such decsions purely on economic arguments, if you dig deep enough, their opinions will mostly based on self interest, the kind of business they run, their import/export ratios and what influence it all has on their own bottom line - see that's the problem when you leave such decsions to capitalists - they dont giove a flying feck about the good of the country, its not even in their lexicon, they are only interested in what is best for their own interests - in Camerons case he knows such a 'stand up to the EU stance' will appeal to the gingoistic little Englanders - who will cheer, when the reality is, whether our ecomonic interests as a nation are best served within or without, at the table or without, allowing the Euro to fold or not... is a far more complex question that even economists can nnot agree on.. and so its easy to find some that support your stance.

Sadly whilst the sovereignty issue remains so ingrained in so many, its virtually impossible in this country to have a grown up debate about the economic value of the EU...

I think we should give up all our rights to self rule with immediate effect. we should disband the westminister and scottish parliments and just be ruled by the germans and french , We should convert to the euro. with effect from 1st January

Im glad Im at work as I have electricity but two miles away I have none .

Cameron out , dune out . Let the Socialists rule

PS THE Scottisn National Party arte a bigger bunch of liars than the westminster lot.

Salmond said ORkney would get a flat budget this year same as last year , but what has he announced the complete opposite

lying **** . That will mean my job definatley going . So come april Im likely to be another unemployed statistic

BBC News 0931:Eurozone crisis: Former British foreign secretary David Miliband says David Cameron's actions showed "weakness not strength". Writing on Twitter, he says: "UK jumped into rowing boat with Hungary next to 25 nation supertanker. That is weakness not strength."

The Euro is a busted flush. Can people seriously believe the EuroZone countries will actually comply with the new Fiscal Union rules they appear to be about to adopt? The track record of European nations actually fulfilling the demands asked of them by themselves suggests otherwise.

We (the English) need to learn from this and do all we can to ensure the Scots, when they become independent, join the Euro rather than stay in the Pound, thus creating a PoundZone. With their free university tuition, free prescriptions, free this, free that, economy it won't be long before a free-spending country looks to her richer partner to bail her out. Back in the 18th century during the Scottish Enlightenment, Edinburgh was known as The Athens of The North. How apt!

BBC Newsfeed 0913: Graeme Leach, of the Institute of Directors in Britain, says David Cameron made the right decision. He tells BBC Radio 5 Live the proposed financial services tax is "absolutely last thing the UK economy needs at the present time or indeed at any time". He adds: "It has to be global to work. It will never be global and so it will never work."

BBC News 0931:Eurozone crisis: Former British foreign secretary David Miliband says David Cameron's actions showed "weakness not strength". Writing on Twitter, he says: "UK jumped into rowing boat with Hungary next to 25 nation supertanker. That is weakness not strength."

Thank god we got rid of Labour!

First time I've really, honestly, thought Dave has come over credible - exactly the right thing to be doing.

I'd love to be that room and just say; "F*ck off you mugs, we are Great Britain and we'll do what we want"

Probably why I'm not an MP.

......thus creating a PoundZone.

Well we already have PoundLand !

BBC Newsfeed 0952: Britain also comes in for some criticism in today's German newspapers. "Brits block big plan to save euro," says Spiegel Online. The headline in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reads "Merkel and Sarkozy thwarted by the British", while Financial Times Deutschland says: "Europe goes it alone without Britain".

BBC Newsfeed 0851: The foreign affairs spokesman for Britain's opposition Labour Party, Douglas Alexander, tells BBC Radio 4 he "regrets just how badly David Cameron's negotiation strategy has let Britain down" and the UK is more isolated today than at any point since it joined the EU about 35 years ago. "The outcome is not a sign of strength but a profound weakness," he says.

First time I've really, honestly, thought Dave has come over credible - exactly the right thing to be doing.

 

I'd love to be that room and just say; "F*ck off you mugs, we are Great Britain and we'll do what we want"

 

Probably why I'm not an MP.

Ha! Right in sarkozy's French face while rule Britannia plays quietly in the background.

Can we please stop pretending that what David Cameron did was 'best for Britain'?

He did what was best for himself, and Conservative party backers.

Having said that, if a consequence of these events is that we get closer to a referendum, I'm onboard.

Can we please stop pretending that what David Cameron did was 'best for Britain'?

 

He did what was best for himself, and Conservative party backers.

 

Having said that, if a consequence of these events is that we get closer to a referendum, I'm onboard.

But if he achieves what is best for us and the conservatives then what does it matter?

But if he achieves what is best for us and the conservatives then what does it matter?

I think that's what pap was indeed saying

I think that's what pap was indeed saying

I just don't see the need to bash Cameron when he has done the right thing. Slate politicians when they do bad and praise when they do good is my motto.

BBC News 0931:Eurozone crisis: Former British foreign secretary David Miliband says David Cameron's actions showed "weakness not strength". Writing on Twitter, he says: "UK jumped into rowing boat with Hungary next to 25 nation supertanker. That is weakness not strength."

You do like playing devils advocate don't you trousers? I know you don't believe that

Breaking News EU: Ireland may have to hold a referendum on building a fiscal union in the eurozone, Minister for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton says - Reuters.

But if he achieves what is best for us and the conservatives then what does it matter?

It matters because we really don't want to see David Cameron get plaudits for essentially protecting the institutions that fecked us all up in the first place.

When the British people asked for a referendum on Europe, we were roundly rebuffed. When big business asks for financial services to be protected, Dave whips the veto out. That should tell you all you need to know.

You do like playing devils advocate don't you trousers? I know you don't believe that

I like to call it 'offering a balanced persepctive'.... ;-)