Health workers reject government's final offer on pensions

BBC News: Leaders of health workers in Unite reject government's final offer on pensions

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16431284

Meanwhile....Shell closes final salary pension scheme to new recruits....the last major UK company to do so.

Meanwhile....Shell closes final salary pension scheme to new recruits....the last major UK company to do so.

Esso will be laughing all the way to the 1st class graduate recruitment fares....

More fool Shell.

Then withdraw the offer and impose a cheaper one. Lump it or leave.

I wonder why the Govt did not go down the route of closing the scheme to new members

I wonder why the Govt did not go down the route of closing the scheme to new members

Powerful unions that are stuck in the past?

More to do with Thatcher's "pension holidays" actually, look it up.

More to do with Thatcher's "pension holidays" actually, look it up.

This. Also, the health workers' scheme is 'closed' to new members in that all new members' pensions are calculated on average salary and not final salary.

Unilever workers are striking too because, in spite of earlier promises, Unilever is closing its final salary scheme to existing members. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16455939

It amazes me, how people from the same country, see things oh so differently. We have the lefties on here moaning about the lack of manufacturing, the loss of industry, the privatisation of all the utilities etc etc, yet the unions were largely to blame for making these into loss making industries, in much the same way, that they will now, over their greedy demands. Some times they do good, but on the whole, they are destroyers of all things good.

All imho of course.

When we read about the HUGE pension pots the top executives at these large companies get, their bonuses and their enormous wages, it's no wonder the workers in those companies (without whom the companies couldn't manufacture and sell) ask why they have to lose their comparitively meagre pensions or why they don't get one at all.

It amazes me, how people from the same country, see things oh so differently. We have the lefties on here moaning about the lack of manufacturing, the loss of industry, the privatisation of all the utilities etc etc, yet the unions were largely to blame for making these into loss making industries, in much the same way, that they will now, over their greedy demands. Some times they do good, but on the whole, they are destroyers of all things good.

 

All imho of course.

Well, I don't think you can lay all the blame at the feet of the unions for the decline of manufacturing in this country, or even most of it. Globalisation has had a much bigger part to play. When a company realises it's cheaper to fabricate stuff in the Far East and ship it to the West than just making it in the West, they'll do it. That's more tied to the cost of living than anything else.

The recent How the West Went Bust series went into some detail on the relative differences in salary. They're staggering.

Well, I don't think you can lay all the blame at the feet of the unions for the decline of manufacturing in this country, or even most of it. Globalisation has had a much bigger part to play. When a company realises it's cheaper to fabricate stuff in the Far East and ship it to the West than just making it in the West, they'll do it. That's more tied to the cost of living than anything else.

 

The recent How the West Went Bust series went into some detail on the relative differences in salary. They're staggering.

And, who was forcing up the cost of living by excessive wage demands?, you have to admit, the unions started out with good intentions, but got bl00dy greedy.

And, who was forcing up the cost of living by excessive wage demands?, you have to admit, the unions started out with good intentions, but got bl00dy greedy.

How about doing a bit if research - learning something! - before knee-jerking?

For example, London is the powerhouse of the British economy, yet only 2.8% of its GDP is manufacturing. That, to me, is staggering. What any decent economist will tell you is that root cause of the decline is disinvestment by an investment banking system that saw far easier profits in 'assets' and various forms of currency dealing and speculation. The kinds of strategic thinking that, say, informs the German investment model are completely absent here. In Germany, incidentally, the unions have more power than here. Union rights are weaker in the UK than of any of the other major economies, including the US.

A rise in wages does not 'force up the cost of living' in such a mechanistic way. Cuts in wages will force up the cost of living much more directly. Rises, on the other hand, can and do stimulate growth, and ultimately distinguish advanced economies from, say, Albania. Or to put it another way, if unions hadn't been, in your words, 'greedy', the rights and income you enjoy would not be a fraction of what they are now.

Or maybe you'd prefer Albania.

How about doing a bit if research - learning something! - before knee-jerking?

 

For example, London is the powerhouse of the British economy, yet only 2.8% of its GDP is manufacturing. That, to me, is staggering. What any decent economist will tell you is that root cause of the decline is disinvestment by an investment banking system that saw far easier profits in 'assets' and various forms of currency dealing and speculation. The kinds of strategic thinking that, say, informs the German investment model are completely absent here. In Germany, incidentally, the unions have more power than here. Union rights are weaker in the UK than of any of the other major economies, including the US.

 

A rise in wages does not 'force up the cost of living' in such a mechanistic way. Cuts in wages will force up the cost of living much more directly. Rises, on the other hand, can and do stimulate growth, and ultimately distinguish advanced economies from, say, Albania. Or to put it another way, if unions hadn't been, in your words, 'greedy', the rights and income you enjoy would not be a fraction of what they are now.

 

Or maybe you'd prefer Albania.

What else do you expect from the Tory right but fantasy world politics

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Public sector workers in rejecting a pension most private sector workers could only dream of shocker!

They really think they are superior to the people that pay their wages.

Public sector workers in rejecting a pension most private sector workers could only dream of shocker!

 

They really think they are superior to the people that pay their wages.

Give an example - an actual example.

Public sector workers in rejecting a pension most private sector workers could only dream of shocker!

 

They really think they are superior to the people that pay their wages.

Give an example - an actual example.

Well I am certainly superior to Dune, ( but then again if, as is alleged, he/she is on JSA he/she doesn't contribute to my wages ).

And, who was forcing up the cost of living by excessive wage demands?, you have to admit, the unions started out with good intentions, but got bl00dy greedy.

What is the big ticket item in the cost of living, Ginge?

I think it's your rent or mortgage. Average house price in 1980? 24K. Today? 166K.

What is the big ticket item in the cost of living, Ginge?

 

I think it's your rent or mortgage. Average house price in 1980? 24K. Today? 166K.

Due to supply and demand. Down here in the deep south, prices have not really fallen. I know from a previous discussion on this, that you advocate plunging millions into negative equity, to start the process all over again. However, I agree, is is a factor in the cost of living, but regardless of what Verbal says or thinks, many industries have fled this country, due to in part, the high wages demanded, taking Dyson as a prime example, their goods are the same price, but overheads vastly reduced.

There was a time we exported coal in this country, but the unions bled the industry dry, making production uneconomical, and before you start Verbal, I haven't researched it, it is a knee jerk assessment, based on my age and experience..

I haven't researched it, it is a knee jerk assessment, based on my age and experience..

Then my apologies - you're a lot younger than I thought.

Due to supply and demand.

Yup. The banks supplied a lot of money they didn't really have. House prices ballooned to meet the amount of available capital in the lending market. Now the banks are demanding it back.

Down here in the deep south, prices have not really fallen. I know from a previous discussion on this, that you advocate plunging millions into negative equity, to start the process all over again.

You mean, like the present system?

The one where if we raised interest rates to anything sensible, we'd send millions more into the spectre of repossession?

However, I agree, is is a factor in the cost of living, but regardless of what Verbal says or thinks, many industries have fled this country, due to in part, the high wages demanded, taking Dyson as a prime example, their goods are the same price, but overheads vastly reduced.

It is the PRIME factor, and I suspect you know it.

We'll never know why Dyson buggered off. If you ask James Dyson, he points to the lack of component manufacturers in the UK and the fact that he can get a better supply chain setup. Personally, I suspect you are correct, which kind of proves my point.

We demand high wages because we have high outgoings. Housing is one of the largest.

Then you look at the massive tax burden of the average UK citizen. Even if you don't pay income taxes, you're getting taxed in the bolox almost every time you spend money. Council tax, VAT, fuel duty (which doesn't just affect wages), ciggies and beer for those that partake. I know it seems like we are paying all that, but ultimately, business is footing the bill for the lot.

There was a time we exported coal in this country, but the unions bled the industry dry, making production uneconomical, and before you start Verbal, I haven't researched it, it is a knee jerk assessment, based on my age and experience..

I'm not denying that the unions had their part to play, or that they weren't part of immense problems in the late 1970s, but they are a factor amongst many. I also remember that without the unionised effort of our forebears, the average person in this country wouldn't have the free time to even participate in discussions like these.

The public sector is being asked to make sacrifices to cover the losses of the professional gambling industry, or the financial services industry as it is better known. It is understandably a bit miffed. Disgraced bankers are still getting massive Brucies from tax-payer owned banks, the Government seems intent on collecting as little tax as possible from large corporations, yet it's the public sector being asked to swallow a sh*t-burger and smile.

Unions are mostly reactive institutions. Ask the public sector to eat a sh*tburger when they are already underpaid and you'll get a guaranteed reaction. People make a natural association with the Winter of Discontent whenever they hear the word union, and that is the unions' punishment for letting things get so out of hand. Overall, unions have been a force for progressive change. It is simplistic to blame them for everything and demonstrates a rather myopic view of the big picture.

I'm actually quite interested in what your beef is with them.

Look, its all very simple.

Unions get better pay for working people.

Bosses will screw you for every penny.

Sometimes union bosses are greedy and get paid too much.

if you work in the private sector, the cost of the average public sector pension is not going to impoverish you...that is already taken care of by the banks and government.

Look, its all very simple.

Unions get better pay for working people.

 

Bosses will screw you for every penny.

 

Sometimes union bosses are greedy and get paid too much.

 

if you work in the private sector, the cost of the average public sector pension is not going to impoverish you...that is already taken care of by the banks and government.

Succinct assessment of the situation.

You only ever hear about the unions in relation to strike. In reality, most of the time is spent negotiating change and nine times out of ten, there's compromise on both sides and things progress smoothly. The perception we have in the public is mostly about strife, because that's what makes the news.