It really is time to bring back the death penalty

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083006/Yasmin-Chaudhry-drowns-baby-daughter-bucket-boyfriend-watches-Skype.html

I dont care the stigma of what paper this is in, the fact is that people are doing all sorts of outrageous things nowadays because they know they can get away with it or get a mild punishement. Guaranteed this couple have someone fighting for them, putting it down to poor education, cultural values of being economically disavantaged and trodden on; that they are the victims.

I dont give a f**k. Basic human instinct would tell you drowning a one year old toddler in a bucket of water is PLAIN WRONG.

People need to be scared/respectful of the weight of the law and justice again, or this sort of sh*t is just going to keep happening.

I am absolutely in no way condoning what happened, however, people can do some monumentally stupid things when they are deprived of sleep. I dropped my 3 week old son because of lack of sleep at a similar time of the night, I just wasnt thinking straight. It only takes that combined with a slightly persuasive or mental deficient persona to think that dunking a baby in water is punishment (theyve already said they never meant to kill the baby)

Alps, as a dad, I feel sick to the pit of my stomach when I read stories like this, so I get where you are coming from.

However, the evidence from over the pond doesn't back your suggestion that the death penalty would be a deterrent for this sort of heinous crime. In fact, the states that have the death penalty typically have more violent crime than those that do not.

With specific regard to the case you mention, do you really think that fear of being executed getting caught would have stopped them? Don't like to use the term evil willy-nilly, but these people would justify the tag, and genuinely evil people will do genuinely evil things irrespective of whether there is a noose waiting for them or not.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083006/Yasmin-Chaudhry-drowns-baby-daughter-bucket-boyfriend-watches-Skype.html

 

I dont care the stigma of what paper this is in, the fact is that people are doing all sorts of outrageous things nowadays because they know they can get away with it or get a mild punishement. Guaranteed this couple have someone fighting for them, putting it down to poor education, cultural values of being economically disavantaged and trodden on; that they are the victims.

 

I dont give a f**k. Basic human instinct would tell you drowning a one year old toddler in a bucket of water is PLAIN WRONG.

 

People need to be scared/respectful of the weight of the law and justice again, or this sort of sh*t is just going to keep happening.

The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. In the US, this is in the way of a fact rather than an opinion. States with the death penalty tend to have higher murder rates than those those don't. And this isn't a 'rich/poor' divide - one of the poorest states in the Union, New Mexico, does not have the death penalty and has seen murder rates fall since abolition.

On the specifics of the case, I take it you have done extensive psychological testing on the accused - to know for certain that she was mentally all there? It's important, because even in States with the death penalty, you can't execute the mentally incapable or 'retarded' (an official definition once upon a time, based on IQ scores).

But I suspect you're thinking along the lines of revenge, whether you admit it or not. And that's not the best of motives for state killing, is it?

Baj, I am the father of 3. The youngest is going through the terrible twos. My wife is also expecting our 4th in May. For the 3 we have, the burden of coaxing the babies to sleep during collic attacks has always fallen on me. I've also done my fair share of mopping sick up and changing bedclothes 3 times during the night.

I would lie if I said flashes of red mist have never descended briefly in my mind. BUT NEVER have I thought of something as premediated as running a bucket of water and holding my baby's head under the surface. To me that is a totally different level of violence against a baby.

Pap, why do you think that the level of violence and abuse appears to be going up in society if people are no longer afraid of the law ? I remember when I was a kid 30 years ago I used to shiver with fear if a policeman approached, let alone spoke to me. Now, wearing a police uniform appears to make you target for abuse and violence.

The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. In the US, this is in the way of a fact rather than an opinion. States with the death penalty tend to have higher murder rates than those those don't. And this isn't a 'rich/poor' divide - one of the poorest states in the Union, New Mexico, does not have the death penalty and has seen murder rates fall since abolition.

 

On the specifics of the case, I take it you have done extensive psychological testing on the accused - to know for certain that she was mentally all there? It's important, because even in States with the death penalty, you can't execute the mentally incapable or 'retarded' (an official definition once upon a time, based on IQ scores).

 

But I suspect you're thinking along the lines of revenge, whether you admit it or not. And that's not the best of motives for state killing, is it?

Yep, thanks for proving my point. If I can be accused of seeking revenge, your ilk can be accused of always trying to find the victim of circumstance in the perpetrator.

I would really love to know how you would reduce the incidence of these murders.

Yep, thanks for proving my point. If I can be accused of seeking revenge, your ilk can be accused of always trying to find the victim of circumstance in the perpetrator.

 

I would really love to know how you would reduce the incidence of these murders.

Abolish the death penalty wherever it exists - would be a good start.

My brother works with criminals in the legal system - conequences of their actions is far from the minds of the vast majority of criminals when they commit their crimes. The death penalty isn't a deterrent to murder. We know this because 1. Murders still happen in places where they have the death penalty and 2. Most murderers don't consider the consequences of their crimes.

There are some people who are so violent and anti social the rest of us would be better off with them not living, but I wouldn't put these people in that category.

People can and do get into situations where all normal self control and reasoning leaves them. I think you have to give first time offenders the benefit of some doubt and leniency. Its the serial serious violent offenders I would be prepared to consider for the death penalty - along the three strikes and you're out line. Commiting very serious violent offences on three separate occcasions should lead to a capital sentence imo.

Abolish the death penalty wherever it exists - would be a good start.

And thats going to stop children being murdered is it ?

This crime took place in Norway, abetted by a Brit. Neither country has the death penalty current.

Therefore, I conclude from your answer that you havent got a proper answer. As usual, its easy to say what not to do and have not a clue about what to actually do...

Yep, thanks for proving my point. If I can be accused of seeking revenge, your ilk can be accused of always trying to find the victim of circumstance in the perpetrator.

 

I would really love to know how you would reduce the incidence of these murders.

And how would you suggest reducing the murder rate in countries/states where they already have the death penalty?

There are some people who are so violent and anti social the rest of us would be better off with them not living, but I wouldn't put these people in that category.

 

People can and do get into situations where all normal self control and reasoning leaves them. I think you have to give first time offenders the benefit of some doubt and leniency. Its the serial serious violent offenders I would be prepared to consider for the death penalty - along the three strikes and you're out line. Commit very serious violent offences on three separate occcasions should put you in line for the death penalty imo.

You'd let 2 other babies suffer this fate before doing something about it ?

And thats going to stop children being murdered is it ?

 

This crime took place in Norway, abetted by a Brit. Neither country has the death penalty current.

 

Therefore, I conclude from your answer that you havent got a proper answer. As usual, its easy to say what not to do and have not a clue about what to actually do...

And murders take place in countries that already have the death penalty don't they?!

And how would you suggest reducing the murder rate in countries/states where they already have the death penalty?

Get rid of all the waiting on death row for 20 years cr*p.

If you are sentenced to death, do it the next day.

No, never. A state should never have power over its citizens right to life, whatever vile acts that person commits.

And the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrent. America has a much higher murder rate than the UK. Sadly, there a few evil nutters who are off the rails big time and the fact there is a death penalty or not doesn't change anything.

Events like that in the news story are thankfully extremely rare.

And thats going to stop children being murdered is it ?

 

This crime took place in Norway, abetted by a Brit. Neither country has the death penalty current.

 

Therefore, I conclude from your answer that you havent got a proper answer. As usual, its easy to say what not to do and have not a clue about what to actually do...

My point is, again, even in places that have the death penalty, there are limitations of mental competence that would probably prevent this case becoming a capital one. You're just plainly wrong if you think this is a general solution.

You'd let 2 other babies suffer this fate before doing something about it ?

wow, you're such a cock. that's really what he said isn't it.

My brother works with criminals in the legal system - conequences of their actions is far from the minds of the vast majority of criminals when they commit their crimes. The death penalty isn't a deterrent to murder. We know this because 1. Murders still happen in places where they have the death penalty and 2. Most murderers don't consider the consequences of their crimes.

Yep, criminals are victims...

Get rid of all the waiting on death row for 20 years cr*p.

 

If you are sentenced to death, do it the next day.

And abolish the right of appeal. Absolutely!

Make a mistake or a dozen - no matter!

And thats going to stop children being murdered is it ?

 

This crime took place in Norway, abetted by a Brit. Neither country has the death penalty current.

 

Therefore, I conclude from your answer that you havent got a proper answer. As usual, its easy to say what not to do and have not a clue about what to actually do...

Just because he doesn't yet have a proper solution, doesn't mean a bad one should be tolerated.

So, none of you actually have a f**king clue about what to do to prevent this. Better to do nothing, right ?

Just because he doesn't yet have a proper solution, doesn't mean a bad one should be tolerated.

I'm not sure we should bother Andy. Alps is another one of those 'sample of one' hysterics.

And abolish the right of appeal. Absolutely!

 

Make a mistake or a dozen - no matter!

OK, one appeal to be lodged within 7 days of sentence, to be concluded within 6 months. I can compromise.

But the sitting on death row and turning the murderers into cult heroes should be scrapped.

I'm not sure we should bother Andy. Alps is another one of those 'sample of one' hysterics.

And you are a bleeding-heart liberal..

So, none of you actually have a f**king clue about what to do to prevent this. Better to do nothing, right ?

You cant prevent it Alpine. The fact they tried to cover up the crime shows they were afraid of the consequences and the force of the law - but it still happened anyway. A death penalty would have made no difference, other than retribution for outraged people like you.

So, none of you actually have a f**king clue about what to do to prevent this. Better to do nothing, right ?

There isn't really a lot you can do to prevent tragedies like this happening except better early intervention. Some people are just mental, thankfully cases such as you highlighted are rare, but the death penalty won't stop people doing stuff like this and never has and never will.

Get rid of all the waiting on death row for 20 years cr*p.

 

If you are sentenced to death, do it the next day.

lol bad luck if you're wrongly convicted then, but of course that never happens....

I can just imagine the thoughts that would (not) go through the minds of potential murders:

In the UK: "I'm gonna kill this bloke, I'll be out in 20 years, well worth it"

In the US now: "I'm gonna kill this bloke, I'll get the death penalty but with appeals etc that won't happen for ages, well worth it"

In Alpinia: "I won't kill this bloke, I'd get killed myself the day after conviction. If only I lived somewhere more liberal like Texas that would give me a few years on death row before execution, I'd definitely do it then."

Sorry, I cannot accept there is no way to protect the defenceless members of society.

Pap, why do you think that the level of violence and abuse appears to be going up in society if people are no longer afraid of the law ? I remember when I was a kid 30 years ago I used to shiver with fear if a policeman approached, let alone spoke to me. Now, wearing a police uniform appears to make you target for abuse and violence.

The term 'appears' is interesting. In 2010, the British Crime Survey reported that violent crime has actually dropped in this country [1]. I take your point that these stories loom large in the headlines. They are shocking, so of course they are going to make an impression on you. They're also not very representative, because our news tends to focus on the exceptional horrors. There's no balance. No-one reports that a couple of million kids got home safely after school, or had a decent evening with their parents, or woke up in safe surroundings in a loving environment.

If anything, the rolling news culture and the Internet has provided us with access to even more of the world's horrors. But it's vastly disproportionate, reflects a freak-show of reality and we should think very carefully about applying things like the death penalty to the whole population because of the aberrations of a tiny fraction. You know the downsides as well as I do. Get it wrong, and there is no going back.

As for the diminishing respect for the police? Well, there are probably a number of factors for that. They've brought a lot of it on themselves through betraying the public's trust, either through trying to protect themselves from bad headlines, corruption, or turning on the people they are supposed to serve.

Yep, criminals are victims...

How could you possibly conclude that from my post? you are mental.

lol bad luck if you're wrongly convicted then, but of course that never happens....

 

I can just imagine the thoughts that would (not) go through the minds of potential murders:

 

In the UK: "I'm gonna kill this bloke, I'll be out in 20 years, well worth it"

In the US now: "I'm gonna kill this bloke, I'll get the death penalty but with appeals etc that won't happen for ages, well worth it"

In Alpinia: "I won't kill this bloke, I'd get killed myself the day after conviction. If only I lived somewhere more liberal like Texas that would give me a few years on death row before execution, I'd definitely do it then."

In Southsea : "I'm kill this bloke, people like anothersaintinsouthsea will make sure I get a nice flat, loads of money, and plenty of understanding"

Sorry, I cannot accept there is no way to protect the defenceless members of society.

Better spotting schemes earlier on. The death penalty would achieve nothing but giving the state the right over our lives and revenge for grieving relatives(which I sympathise with, but justice must not be served out by victims, it must be done independently).

Sorry, I cannot accept there is no way to protect the defenceless members of society.

But why the knee-jerk for the death penalty? You say you're not motivated by revenge, and there's overwhelming evidence that it's not a deterrent.

What you've offered is, at best, a useless proposal.

Sorry, I cannot accept there is no way to protect the defenceless members of society.

Yeah cos everybody on here has been saying that there should be no punishment at all for murder haven't they?

In Southsea : "I'm kill this bloke, people like anothersaintinsouthsea will make sure I get a nice flat, loads of money, and plenty of understanding"

Where did you conclude that from his post?!

In Southsea : "I'm kill this bloke, people like anothersaintinsouthsea will make sure I get a nice flat, loads of money, and plenty of understanding"

Pathetic.

The term 'appears' is interesting. In 2010, the British Crime Survey reported that violent crime has actually dropped in this country [1]. I take your point that these stories loom large in the headlines. They are shocking, so of course they are going to make an impression on you. They're also not very representative, because our news tends to focus on the exceptional horrors. There's no balance. No-one reports that a couple of million kids got home safely after school, or had a decent evening with their parents, or woke up in safe surroundings in a loving environment.

 

If anything, the rolling news culture and the Internet has provided us with access to even more of the world's horrors. But it's vastly disproportionate, reflects a freak-show of reality and we should think very carefully about applying things like the death penalty to the whole population because of the aberrations of a tiny fraction. You know the downsides as well as I do. Get it wrong, and there is no going back.

 

As for the diminishing respect for the police? Well, there are probably a number of factors for that. They've brought a lot of it on themselves through betraying the public's trust, either through trying to protect themselves from bad headlines, corruption, or turning on the people they are supposed to serve.

I really wish we could confirm that media news saturation is the only reason this sort of thing seems to be occuring more often. I intuitively do not feel as safe as I did 15-20 years ago, I must say.

As for your comments about the police bringing it on themselves, I find them to be very unfair. They do a f**king awful job, with sh*tty political direction from above.

Old habits never die eh Alps?

Better spotting schemes earlier on. The death penalty would achieve nothing but giving the state the right over our lives and revenge for grieving relatives(which I sympathise with, but justice must not be served out by victims, it must be done independently).

Yep, because social services do an absolutely oustanding job in preventing child abuse, dont they ?

Is there a bigger attention seeking troll on this forum than alpine_saint?

I really wish we could confirm that media news saturation is the only reason this sort of thing seems to be occuring more often. I intuitively do not feel as safe as I did 15-20 years ago, I must say.

 

As for your comments about the police bringing it on themselves, I find them to be very unfair. They do a f**king awful job, with sh*tty political direction from above.

I hate to break it to you Alps, but your 'feelings' are not as reliable as carefully compiled statistical data.

Alpine is such an angry man !! No wonder he winds 95% of this forum up the wrong way.

Well Alpine I am beginning to understand you a bit more. Bringing back the death penalty would take us backward as a

Human race. The law means justice not revenge. We cannot have the right to sentence a person, no matter what the crime,

to death otherwise we are no better than them. There is no irrefutable truth that the death penalty is a deterrent. We must

Try and progress as a human race. There has to be rules otherwise there is anarchy but the rules must be just for everyone. And before you label me a left wing softie I abhorr all forms of violence and believe that perpertrators must be punished.

I hate to break it to you Alps, but your 'feelings' are not as reliable as carefully compiled statistical data.

Bet you and Sharon Shoesmith would get on great with your pie charts.

I would have the death penalty when there is no doubt what so ever

Well Alpine I am beginning to understand you a bit more. Bringing back the death penalty would take us backward as a

Human race. The law means justice not revenge. We cannot have the right to sentence a person, no matter what the crime,

to death otherwise we are no better than them. There is no irrefutable truth that the death penalty is a deterrent. We must

Try and progress as a human race. There has to be rules otherwise there is anarchy but the rules must be just for everyone. And before you label me a left wing softie I abhorr all forms of violence and believe that perpertrators must be punished.

Wasnt going to label you a left wing softie. Captain of the Starship Enterprise, maybe. Did you rip off one of Patrick Stewart's monologues ?

I would have the death penalty when there is no doubt what so ever

Unfortunately that would've seen the Birmingham Six and many others executed for crimes they didn't commit.

I would have the death penalty when there is no doubt what so ever

There have been numerous cases where it was thought that was the case only for it to be overturned later.

Is there a bigger attention seeking troll on this forum than alpine_saint?

What, because I dont agree with you and refuse to see murdered toddlers reduced to the ranks of statistical blips ?

The good old days of 1968. http://www.murderuk.com/child_killers_mary_bell.html