HMV facing administration

According to the latest from the Indy, and reports do vary, HMV is about to go into administration.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/hmv-set-to-go-into-administration-8451438.html

Birruva shame, as our Cilla might say. I always liked nipping in and coming out with an armful of media I never intended on buying, but I'm part of the problem. Why go to HMV on the off-chance that they'll have something when it's guaranteed to be online?

So what do we reckon? Did online, piracy, mismanagement or the recession do for HMV, or was it a combination of all four? More importantly, will we miss it? Evidently, we haven't missed it much lately.

Simply a sign of how media distribution is changing. Our Price, Game, Zavvi.... HMV have done well to hang on for so long.

Browsing for records and films in places like HMV used to a be a real joy, but has now been utterly surpassed by browsing Youtube and then buying on Amazon, Play.com or iTunes. No need to even go into town.

Simply a sign of how media distribution is changing. Our Price, Game, Zavvi.... HMV have done well to hang on for so long.

 

Browsing for records and films in places like HMV used to a be a real joy, but has now been utterly surpassed by browsing Youtube and then buying on Amazon, Play.com or iTunes. No need to even go into town.

Don't forget the supermarkets buying the most popular stuff and undercutting them.

But yep, there is actually very little you need to go out to see before you buy these days, only really big purchases, clothes and food.

Don't forget the supermarkets buying the most popular stuff and undercutting them.

 

But yep, there is actually very little you need to go out to see before you buy these days, only really big purchases, clothes and food.

i doubt supermarkets undercutting them is a huge factor in this...when I was a teenager, I used to spend loads of time and money in HMV...music, videos etc etc

I cannot remember the last time I bought anything like that in town....all my music/films is either downloaded or bought from amazon.

so, what else can HMV offer...? t-shirts, posters, ipads, docking stations, headphones.....all expensive bits of kit that you can get for a far cheaper price on ebay/amazon..just have to wait an extra few days for it

I do buy computer games in town though, from game..as I like to have a look at the game being played (if it is) on the demo consol that you can go on....

the only mac game I have is football manager....got that online though

I've worked in IT all my life and one of the most soul destroying things about it is that it automates jobs that people do so you don't need them any more. I now work in ecommerce - it's a boom industry, retail spend in the UK last Christmas online was £1,000,000,000. Basically, ecommerce is automating the high street.

It all moves in cycles however, and multi-channel commerce will change things. One of the UK's most powerful ecommerce brands in John Lewis / Waitrose and they succeed because their stores work *with* their web / mobile / call centre experiences...

Good news is that ecommerce has saved Royal Mail - who expected that!

Settlements have evolved for centuries, from the Vicus appended to the local Roman fort, to the greenfield new towns of the post-war period.

We are gradually moving towards the 'shopless' town.

This, however, will be followed by the retro backlash.

Settlements have evolved for centuries, from the Vicus appended to the local Roman fort, to the greenfield new towns of the post-war period.

Indeed. This is up there with the demise of the quiver industry IMO.

i doubt supermarkets undercutting them is a huge factor in this...when I was a teenager, I used to spend loads of time and money in HMV...music, videos etc etc

 

I cannot remember the last time I bought anything like that in town....all my music/films is either downloaded or bought from amazon.

so, what else can HMV offer...? t-shirts, posters, ipads, docking stations, headphones.....all expensive bits of kit that you can get for a far cheaper price on ebay/amazon..just have to wait an extra few days for it

 

I do buy computer games in town though, from game..as I like to have a look at the game being played (if it is) on the demo consol that you can go on....

the only mac game I have is football manager....got that online though

Actually supermarkets under cutting is one of the major factors that have done for them, that and the fact dvds are perfect for online retailers (light and valuable) - hmv didn't take online seriously enough at the start so the rot began years ago. Its bad news for consumers as it hands more power to amazon who will sell for whatever they want when they have no competition to undercut. film downloading is still a surprisingly small part of the market.

I think the days of electronic media being bought in shops are limited full stop. You can already download all the music, TV and film you want online. I honnestly can't remember the last piece of music I bought in a shop but it must have been 10 years ago. Why go all the way in to town (when the shops are open) and buy a CD for £2 when you can browe and buy any song you want on itunes for 99p. Surprised HMV sell any at all.

I think eventually printed media will go the same way. Most people will have some kind of tablet, smart phone or kindle type device and will download all the books and newspaper articles they want on to that. It's here already, you can already subscribe to some newspapers on itunes. The Sun for example is £5 a month, about 18p a day and marginally less than the paper format. Once that becomes the social norm newspapers will pretty much die out.

HMV as a high street shop has been living on borrowed time for a while. It's just natural high street evolution, eventually they will be completely obsolete.

The joy of not having to go into a shop and pay 30% more than I would to have it delivered to my desk is the reason they are done for.

I heard a rumour the other day that Marks and Spencer are also having financial problems with only the food side keeping them afloat.

Surely this can't be true??

Did the likes of HMV care about the fate of small, local, independent record shops as they drove them out of business?

I just feel for those who will be unemployed soon.

I heard a rumour the other day that Marks and Spencer are also having financial problems with only the food side keeping them afloat.

Surely this can't be true??

Dont know about any financial problems but they've lost the plot regarding clothes. It used to be good quality stuff, if a little dull, at middle market prices - now its mostly badly designed and poorly made stuff for middle market prices - big difference.

I heard a rumour the other day that Marks and Spencer are also having financial problems with only the food side keeping them afloat.

Surely this can't be true??

Not a surprise at all as they have lost the plot again on clothing, I buy my suits for work from them as they are pretty bulletproof, but last trip there was a bit of a chore, Mrs JBS has given up completely.

Weren't HMV one of Dune's big share tips?

Weren't HMV one of Dune's big share tips?

Yes. Remember, Dune's share tips may go up as well as down (but not in this lifetime).

Certain things now starting to make a bit of sense in retrospect. Was in the market for a Wii U before Xmas. Did the tour of all the shops in Liverpool. HMV had marked up the controllers by a tenner. The top games were £50. Around £43 in other shops.

I did actually think "wtf are you doing? are you mental?". Turns out they were just brassic.

Shock news. I was only in the one in the precint at lunchtime, buying some CD's. (I havent made it into the new millenium yet)

The problem is obvious; the internet.

1. The internet has reduced the value of media because holding a physical copy of something is no longer important.

2. It is easily available for free. However, I have find that people avoid pirating where prices are reasonable and affordable. For example, netflix is doing very well.

3. Obviously, the internet is cheaper.

Also HMV didn't move into other sectors such as technology until it was too late.

However, I do feel that in some ways, the online companies like amazon and play and cd-wow and whoever else rely on a high street retailer for some of their sales. I think people enjoy going in a browsing and seeing all the cds in front of them in a way that is easy to discover new artists and such. So I think it is in everyone's interests if a high-street media retailer remains in business. And if HMV goes, I think there will be a functional hole in the market.

I think in the future, it will have to come down to shops have facilities to order things online to your house when you drop into town. Because people still like going into town, the numbers I have seen reported in the news show that... they just aren't buying stuff there as much anymore.

I think the days of electronic media being bought in shops are limited full stop. You can already download all the music, TV and film you want online. I honnestly can't remember the last piece of music I bought in a shop but it must have been 10 years ago. Why go all the way in to town (when the shops are open) and buy a CD for £2 when you can browe and buy any song you want on itunes for 99p. Surprised HMV sell any at all.

 

I think eventually printed media will go the same way. Most people will have some kind of tablet, smart phone or kindle type device and will download all the books and newspaper articles they want on to that. It's here already, you can already subscribe to some newspapers on itunes. The Sun for example is £5 a month, about 18p a day and marginally less than the paper format. Once that becomes the social norm newspapers will pretty much die out.

 

HMV as a high street shop has been living on borrowed time for a while. It's just natural high street evolution, eventually they will be completely obsolete.

As long as Murdoch's sun dies out I dont really care.

In the Liverpool store they have a lifesize Fallout 3 figure, I wonder if they are flogging that off cheap? Seriously, its bad for the highstreet but what can they do? Lower their prices is not that simple as who pays the wages and rent? Force Amazon to pay relevant taxes and base all online retailers away from tax havens would make it a bit fairer but sadly the high street in its current guise will be like trying to save lonesome George the tortoise.

Ultimately, their downfall is due to debt - carry too much and eventually your options narrow really fast

Yup you guys are all busy shopping online cos it's nice and cheap and easy.

So High Street stores are going bust faster & more regularly than pcfc.

And so you have acres of empty shops and out of town warehouses.

That are no longer paying rents, rates, electricity bills, taxes, NI

Which means the councils will earn less and will cut more

So Services will go, bins will be emptied once a year, more jobs will go and pay will be cut

But yeah, you'll be able to sit at your desks and have stuff delivered.

There is a very dangerous circle of decline here. Councils will have to act very fast to replace the income streams. So no retail? then they have to open more pubs/restaurants in City Centres.... Oh

So you have to start converting retail into Residential..........

Altringham were on a special on Sky News just recently they are trying everything to regenerate their Town Centre including halving parking fees. It's still empty

We don't have an HMV in my town. However, what we do have is a good mix of small versions of large chains e.g. Debenhams, M & S, Argos etc.

What we DO have is free parking,. OK it's a small town and it is in the Cotswolds so it gets a fair number of tourists. But the town is always buzzing, even in winter when there aren't so many tourists around so hats off to the local council for continuing the free parking.

I don't know what the retail rents are but, on the rare occasions a shop has gone out of business, another one springs up. So we have lots of independent shops too and it really is quite pleasant just to wander in and out of these little shops.

We also don't have a big retail park close by. So I'm confident our town will thrive where others won't. Oh and we have an independent music retailer.

Shame we're moving really

I've got a theory that golfing Phil is actually Neil Allen or is it the other way around? Anyway, I believe the paragraphing of the above proves me right.

Come on Phil, own up.

Happy memories of HMV at Hannover buildings and flicking through vinyl, hoping to find a picture disc or limited edition.

I've got a theory that golfing Phil is actually Neil Allen or is it the other way around? Anyway, I believe the paragraphing of the above proves me right.

 

Come on Phil, own up.

Says the man

In two line sentences

And no. Anyone by now will have worked out that Neil knows nothing about anything. At least I know something about Golf. Oh, did I mention Tiger's back in the country this weekend? More to the point I need some good anti-Reading one liners for the Sky tater Richard Boxtall - bugger is always scrounging my smokes on the course and telling me how much better the Royals are than us..

I feel really bad about this happening. Used to love flicking through stacks of vinyl and the T-shirts at HMV down by Debenhams. But iTunes and Amazon is so much more convenient and cheaper.

Just like Kodak with cameras and film, HMVs time has gone, sadly.

Save it for the kangaroo court in the muppet show. I don't make the convictions, I just do the investigations.

Back on topic, do they have music shops in the desert? I wonder if the decline of the music/DVD shop is a mainly European thing. I have just gotten back from Japan and the HMV over there was pretty packed out with sale shoppers. They don't seem to have the same download culture yet and still love going into town shopping.

Settlements have evolved for centuries, from the Vicus appended to the local Roman fort, to the greenfield new towns of the post-war period.

Aye. The moving finger writes and having writ moves on – Omar Khayyám

High street retailers don’t help themselves at times. Last week, I bought a printer cartridge from an independent retailer in our town, only to find that it was defective. When I took it back the silly sod who sold it me insisted my printer head must be blocked and just would not accept that the printer head was actually incorporated in the cartridge that he’d sold me. Ended up buying one online 40% cheaper.

I have just gotten back from Japan and the HMV over there was pretty packed out with sale shoppers. They don't seem to have the same download culture yet and still love going into town shopping.

Yes. When I went to Japan some of the shopping streets in Tokyo were jam packed with mainly young people. It reminded me of the promenading culture that used to exist in European countries many years ago.

Save it for the kangaroo court in the muppet show. I don't make the convictions, I just do the investigations.

 

Back on topic, do they have music shops in the desert? I wonder if the decline of the music/DVD shop is a mainly European thing. I have just gotten back from Japan and the HMV over there was pretty packed out with sale shoppers. They don't seem to have the same download culture yet and still love going into town shopping.

It's a damned good question Tokyo's. I ain't bought music from a shop in about 15 years. I have picked up occassional dodgy Albums in Thailand to listen to while there. When I first arrived they had just introduced a Copyright law - before that they had stores selling THOUSANDS of Copied Cassette Tapes including own mixes. When the law came in they had two weeks to sell the stock - think I bought about 150 of them at 20 pence a tape!

Nowadays we have Virgin Megastores. We have Independent Music & DVD stores. We have local record labels and we have a decent music scene. Most small Malls (we have a US type of local suburban mini malls) have an independent Music/DVD retailer/Independent Blockbuster Rental store.

Virgin here will not go the same way as HMV, they do Music, Software/Games Books Magazines etc, but also do a roaring trade on Events/Concert tickets, and have Electrical Gadgets, Gizmos and stuff not just in the IT/Phone but also in terms of small home gadgets. They also do a decent range of "Virginized" souvenirs.

Internet shopping as a whole really is not big down here, Christ we have enough customer service issues with a shop where you can grab the receptionist by the throat when they refuse to replace a duff item under warranty.

A whole bunch of consumer protection rights will be needed before that can happen - and we have WAY more priorities than that at the moment! Apple locally are about a decade behind the EU in service and support and downloads, sure as heck have no Amazon type operations (although we have Groupon now)

Outside the Global Big Name Touring Bands/DJ's, the most "Music" everyone sees as visitors will be the cover bands (The oft mentioned Seaview Band being an example). There is an annoying habit here that every bar MUST have "Live Music"

But there is a strong Metal & Emo scene. Death of Eighty were the Emo kings about 5 years ago got into the top 10 on AudioStreet downloads and got a UK record deal but unfortunately they grew up and went to Uni.

Local Rockers Juliana Down act as support for all sorts of visiting bands (we normally just groan they are arrogant cocks)

& Nervecell are (allegedly) a decent Death Metal. and supported Velvet Revolver & Muse a few years back.

We have a decent Open Mic scene and lots of pub singer songwriter types.

Obviously loads of Emirati singers doing their stuff and Record Labels for them sell world wide to the Arab expat population.

But, something may be about to change. I've mentioned on the Arts forum couple of lads (one a Saints Massive member) got signed up by the Local EMI/Universal label and their first single releases in early Feb. It got it's first airplay last week and has gone bonkers hitting the playlists as fast as they email the press releases to local stations - already in the top 10 playlist in Qatar, making waves in Lebanon & even Kuwait.

http://www.sarab-me.com/showenter-en.php?subaction=showfull&id=1357721641&archive=&start_from=&ucat=46&include_id=usehome#.UPUYXGds9IU

It's solid Electro Dance stuff and the expats behind it do have a pretty damned solid pedigree. Will be interesting to see what happens, they know their stuff and are popping up and getting loads of the visiting DJ's to pick up on the song They had Globalfunk remixing it live last week.

So yes the local Music Retail scene is very diverse and healthy, the one thing we've not had is an ExPat band making the jump up from Pub band to people going to buy their albums in shops. Maybe Greg & Olly will be the first. Could he knock Craig David off the "Saints Supporting famous person" pedestal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates

I was in there before Xmas. Some Dorris wanted a CD that was not in stock. The guy on the till said it would take a month to get it in and was she happy to wait that long? Needless to say she shook her head and left.

I was in there before Xmas. Some Dorris wanted a CD that was not in stock. The guy on the till said it would take a month to get it in and was she happy to wait that long? Needless to say she shook her head and left.

I am surprised he didnt ask her if she wanted to pay double, as well. Then that would have really summed up the impossible situation HMV is in.

I always liked nipping in and coming out with an armful of media I never intended on buying, but I'm part of the problem. Why go to HMV on the off-chance that they'll have something when it's guaranteed to be online?

Two points in two sentences there -

1) I too loved the 3 for £20 offers, or whatever they have on, to expand my DVD collection, films that I've usually either seen before or wouldn't buy if they weren't on offer. These days though you have LoveFilm, NetFlix, Sky Movies etc etc where you can buy a film on demand without even leaving your home. Sites like these are one of the reasons HMV are going under. Even Tesco has got on board with on demand film - I'm surprised HMV hasn't done the same.

2) I went to two HMV stores just after Christmas to buy my wife a 3DS. HMV's advertised packages were better than Game and other console-based outlets, in that they came with a game I wanted for her and also a charger, which Nintendo don't automatically include. I didn't even care about the colour. "Sorry, we don't have any in stock," came the answer from both outlets. "Oh," says I, "and do you know when you might have any in stock?" "Umm, we don't know that information, they just come in whenever." "So you're advertising a product you don't even have?" "Well we'll have it in eventually." Great. I was also after Ted on DVD which both stores had sold out of. I bit the bullet and went to Game, where I got a good package (not as good as HMV's, but at least they had 3DS's in stock) and also got good information from the guy behind the counter.

HMV are a staple of our high streets, and like Woolworths and co before them I'd be gutted to see them close, but so much of what they sell can be bought online now, and with products guaranteed to be in stock too. (I should've bought the 3DS online but I didn't leave myself enough time.)

HMV, like many others, have failed for two reasons IMHO. They have been carrying too much debt for too long, restricting their ability to cut costs or to invest in newer areas; they have failed to move fast enough when the market was clearly changing 2 - 3 years ago.

In both cases, they should have seen the changes coming much, much earlier. A store closure program, keeping only those which have the most footfall; smaller ranges; cheaper overheads; alll combined with some innovation: like opening late at night, being able to try out games with a discount if you then buy, offering headphones etc that no one else sells and linking up with equipment review websites (not just selling what everyone else stocks, more cheaply. There are LOTS of audio bits out there that are better than Dr Beats, e.g.), having gigs for budding bands, and so on.

Just IMO of course, but to me, they reacted far too late and just replicated the music problem by selling games and kit that can still be purchased elsewhere for less

Who next I wonder? Blockbuster Video? Never quite fathomed how they've managed to keep going over the last few years...

Who next I wonder? Blockbuster Video? Never quite fathomed how they've managed to keep going over the last few years...

Popcorn and game rentals I would think.

Have to say I'm a bit sad about this. Used to work in the Southampton branch, back around the start of the 00s (vinyl counter, since you ask), and still have friends who stuck around for careers in the company, so I feel for them just now. But even back then, 10 years ago, they were failing to react to a changing market. Downloads were becoming more prevalent and had started being counted for chart positions, the CD singles market was plummeting. At the same time the reality TV pop star thing was just kicking off, and HMV lumped all their eggs in that basket.

Their problem has long been a refusal to innovate and to listen to their staff in the branches. It's the same with a lot of high street chains, I suppose. Everything's got to be done in the same way, wherever you are in the country. But people's taste, particularly in something like music, varies a surprising amount in different places. Any attempt to capitalise on that, however successful, would be stamped out by head office.

It's a shame, because their real asset used to be the knowledge of their staff, but increasingly they've favoured yes men over innovative thinkers and their business has gone stale. It was obvious, even back then, that a high street retailer was never going to be able to go toe-to-toe with an online one if they were more expensive and added no value to the customer experience. It's a surprise they've limped on this long.

HMV no longer accepting gift cards already.

I and my partner went to the Above Bar store this morning at 9:15 and the staff have already been told not to accept them.

That's £60 we're down between us. Guess we'll be registering as creditors. :/

HMV no longer accepting gift cards already.

 

I and my partner went to the Above Bar store this morning at 9:15 and the staff have already been told not to accept them.

 

That's £60 we're down between us. Guess we'll be registering as creditors. :/

Yep - unless they were bought on a credit card (not a debit card), in which case the credit card Co is jointly liable

Yep - unless they were bought on a credit card (not a debit card), in which case the credit card Co is jointly liable

Isn't that just for purchases over £100?

HMV no longer accepting gift cards already.

 

I and my partner went to the Above Bar store this morning at 9:15 and the staff have already been told not to accept them.

 

That's £60 we're down between us. Guess we'll be registering as creditors. :/

Think you can use them in water stones.

Isn't that just for purchases over £100?

yes good point, sorry missed the amount. if whoever bought them, spent more than £100 with HMV (buying some CDs or whatever as well) in the same transaction then its covered. You dont actually need to still be owed £100, just have spent that on the credit card and some part of the deal has not been honoured

Beyond that, it could be tricky but you may find lots of others in the same boat, i.e. with unclaimed vouchers. It may just be possible to assign your claims against HMV to others who use the same credit card, so that one person is owed over £100. But need to look into that, I am not sure!

Yep - unless they were bought on a credit card (not a debit card), in which case the credit card Co is jointly liable

Banks have signed up to this separate voluntary code (for debit cards in particular)...

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/your-rights-when-paying-by-credit-card/chargeback-on-credit-and-debit-cards/

Chargeback on credit and debit cards

Chargeback is a process allowing you to ask your card provider to reverse a transaction if there's a problem with something you've bought.

Chargeback is not enshrined in law like section 75, but is part of Scheme Rules, which participating banks subscribe to.

It applies to all debit cards, although exact rules may vary between the Visa, Maestro and American Express networks.

Chargeback also applies to credit cards and is particularly useful where section 75 is not applicable – for goods costing less than £100, for instance.

Like section 75, chargeback can be used in cases of goods not arriving, arriving damaged, arriving not as described, or where the merchant has ceased trading.

You can ask your card provider to try to claw back the money you paid or part of it.

Paul Lewis ‏@paullewismoney

HMV will not be accepting gift cards and vouchers. But the buyer can claim the money back from debit/credit card issuer using chargeback.

Who next I wonder? Blockbuster Video? Never quite fathomed how they've managed to keep going over the last few years...

Would you like to buy a bar of fruit and nut or whole nut for £1.99? I mean obviously you haven't put it on the counter to show that you have any interest in buying a bar of fruit and nut or whole nut but maybe I can convince you by highlighting the fact that it is overpriced but in truth a bit too big for an evening treat. Anyway, are you interested? Only £1.99! No? How about a bag of fruit pastels or maybe a 2 litre bottle of coke? No? Just the DVD then? Are you sure? What really? Ok, just the DVD... How about an Ice cream? Sir... Sir.... what so you mean you'll just stream it? Oh FFS!

Woolworth

HMV

Comet

Julien Greeves

Blacks

La senza

Adams

hawkins bazzar

Barratts

Peacocks

Game

Clintons

Jessops

JJB

Pretty sure missed a few other big ones, guess still more to go. Looking grim out there for a few......

La Senza went bust? I always thought they were pants... #I'mhereallweek

Who next I wonder? Blockbuster Video? Never quite fathomed how they've managed to keep going over the last few years...

Bit late on Blockbuster: here.

Though they're still going (for now).

DP makes a good point at #23 , but it's one that's been made time and again over the ages. But as long as everything's 'convenient' for people ....

As for the streets, they'll one day be no-go areas save for chavs, drunken yoof and weirdos - e.g. people who 'like walking' (weird), 'exercise' (not in a gym - weird) or the genuine weirdos. Not to mention the homeless, ofc. A bit like Portsmouth now then