Championship Manager - cheap as chips.

Playing Demo as we speak, it seems ok, the scouting, training and transfer aspects are very good, match engine has a few issues, and TBH the database probably isn't as good as FM's. However a very good effort, especially for a few quid

Yeah just had a brief look myself. Not that bad really. Graphics are actually excellent, far better then FM. However in terms of depth it lacks quite a bit. For £2.51 that is a bargain.

Will save myself £27 this year and put towards something else like God of War 3 or Mafia 2

Playing the demo at the moment – And can honestly say I prefer it to any FM I’ve played.

What I prefer over FM:

- Graphics

- Scouting system

- Match Engine

- Simplicity of the layout

I think they’ve done an excellent job and have already ordered my copy. For £2.51, it’s a no brainer!

Playing the demo at the moment – And can honestly say I prefer it to any FM I’ve played.

 

What I prefer over FM:

 

- Graphics

- Scouting system

- Match Engine

- Simplicity of the layout

 

I think they’ve done an excellent job and have already ordered my copy. For £2.51, it’s a no brainer!

The animations may look pretty but the underlying engine is a mess - Exhibit A

Look at the database and it is far from accurate - Exhibit B the Southampton data

The animations may look pretty but the underlying engine is a mess - Exhibit A

 

Look at the database and it is far from accurate - Exhibit B the Southampton data

Whilst that’s true it’s a Beta Demo we’re playing.

In my opinion the potentional is there to be better than FM now. But your right, they need to sharpen up on there database and get rid of some flaws before release, which having read the Official Forum they will be doing.

Whilst that’s true it’s a Beta Demo we’re playing.

 

In my opinion the potentional is there to be better than FM now. But your right, they need to sharpen up on there database and get rid of some flaws before release, which having read the Official Forum they will be doing.

It is a beta demo released 3 weeks before the game goes on sale. If they can't sort it out in 2 years of development time they have no chance in under 3 weeks. Remember it takes time for a game to go into manufacture/distribution to shops and that process will happen along time before 11th September.

It is a beta demo released 3 weeks before the game goes on sale. If they can't sort it out in 2 years of development time they have no chance in under 3 weeks. Remember it takes time for a game to go into manufacture/distribution to shops and that process will happen along time before 11th September.

2 years to develop the whole game...things like you have pointed out can be resolved easily im sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuRjY5grMmE&feature=related

looks nice

2 years to develop the whole game...things like you have pointed out can be resolved easily im sure...

The video link I showed shows the whole match engine has no player AI. That is quite a large problem.

The database is massively incorrect. That is an enormous problem.

we shall see when the proper version is released I guess.

The database is something they aren't going to get right. The CM database is made by a small number of people(10 people in their office) that don't watch or support the majority of the clubs they research. They also have a small number of external researchers and sources of data. FM database is made by over 1,500 researchers all around the world that are mostly season ticket holders.

Wasen't that youtube video shown to be just some guy messing about having all the players mark the corner taker or something?

Having put a few hours in now i have not seen that once.

It reminds me a lot for some reason of Sensible World of Soccer.

Wasen't that youtube video shown to be just some guy messing about having all the players mark the corner taker or something?

 

Having put a few hours in now i have not seen that once.

 

It shows that the players have very poor AI when it comes to marking. It is him using the set piece creator to show a massive flaw in the game. He instructed his attackers to run or stand on the side of the pitch. The defenders blindly mark them without considering the huge space in the of free space in the centre of the pitch. The match engine is fundamentally flawed. Players just run around like headless chickens.

It shows that the players have very poor AI when it comes to marking. It is him using the set piece creator to show a massive flaw in the game. He instructed his attackers to run or stand on the side of the pitch. The defenders blindly mark them without considering the huge space in the of free space in the centre of the pitch. The match engine is fundamentally flawed. Players just run around like headless chickens.

hmm but if i wanted to i could make FM do the exact same thing.

I will try and find the thread but i think its bogus. Some guy probably added 2 players and just made it like that. Having had loads of corners not once seen it as i said.

Having had loads of corners not once seen it as i said.

You are missing the point. The computer didn't make the set piece it was the user. The computer in each of those goals is the defending team.

You are missing the point. The computer didn't make the set piece it was the user. The computer in each of those goals is the defending team.

well dont cheat and then it wont happen...sorted

well dont cheat and then it wont happen...sorted

It isn't cheating to create a set piece. The most important thing this shows is not that it is possible to do set pieces like this, but that the players have NO AI what-so-ever. This lack of AI will be shown in other areas of the game.

That is so worrying it should stop anyone from wanting to play the game until it is fixed as it is a game breaker. The problem with this is that Eidos/BGS have said they are unlikely to produce patches beyond one on 11th September.

It isn't cheating to create a set piece. The most important thing this shows is not that it is possible to do set pieces like this, but that the players have NO AI what-so-ever.

 

That is so worrying it should stop anyone from wanting to play the game until it is fixed as it is a game breaker. The problem with this is that Eidos/BGS have said they are unlikely to produce patches beyond one on 11th September.

I dont understand how breaking the AI on one small piece of the game would want to stop you playing it...just dont set a cheating one up and then no problems.

unless there is more than just this one example?...

I dont understand how breaking the AI on one small piece of the game would want to stop you playing it...just dont set a cheating one up and then no problems.

 

unless there is more than just this one example?...

It isn't one piece of the game. It shows that there is no AI. Just watch the players in a match. They swarm around the ball like headless chickens. It doesn't represent a real game of football in any way.

Yes, it has better player animations than FM. But the the underlying match engine(the important bit) is truly shocking and like something from a mid to late 1990's game.

It is so funny to watch just how poor this match engine is

Reading the forums, especially this post

http://forums.championshipmanager.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=60315

Says the editor is fixed.

Only just read th forum and did not realise the version available is the Beta version being used to help iron out bugs.....

I realise your loyalty to the FM series Matt but will you be the first person to then hold your hand up and say the same things about FM10 when that comes out?

If i put my goalkeeper in midfield and let in a lot of goals will you say that is a game breaking bug too?

Somehow even if Fm does not install, runs at a crap rate (i have a very powerful pc), locks up, has the same bugs it always has etc etc i doubt you will bash it

 

It is so funny to watch just how poor this match engine is

Looks okay in this one

Think it is safe to assume the FM fanboys feel threatened so have created those videos (even downgrading the quality to 600 rez in your video) to try and make it look as bad as possible.

Reading the forums, especially this post

http://forums.championshipmanager.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=60315

Says the editor is fixed.

 

Only just read th forum and did not realise the version available is the Beta version being used to help iron out bugs.....

 

I realise your loyalty to the FM series Matt but will you be the first person to then hold your hand up and say the same things about FM10 when that comes out?

If i put my goalkeeper in midfield and let in a lot of goals will you say that is a game breaking bug too?

 

Somehow even if Fm does not install, runs at a crap rate (i have a very powerful pc), locks up, has the same bugs it always has etc etc i doubt you will bash it

By no means is FM09 perfect but it is light years ahead of CM10. FM10 will make that gap even larger. I have played all three

Putting your keeper in midfield and conceding goals is not a game breaking bug as that is what you would expect to happen if you did the same in real life. However if you did what you see in that set piece video in real life the defenders would ignore the players on the touchline and zonal mark the danger in the middle of the goal, that would happen in FM but not CM.

Looks okay in this one

 

Think it is safe to assume the FM fanboys feel threatened so have created those videos (even downgrading the quality to 600 rez in your video) to try and make it look as bad as possible.

Look at the team shape(or lack of it) and player movement in that video. They are running around like an under 11 schoolboy match.

You surely can't think that resembles a realistic game of professional football!

You are looking at the shiny and nice player animations and ignoring the actual game of football that is being played out.

Watch it closely and you will see.

 

It is so funny to watch just how poor this match engine is

Champ manager is sh*t. Full stop.

By no means is FM09 perfect but it is light years ahead of CM10. FM10 will make that gap even larger. I have played all three

 

Putting your keeper in midfield and conceding goals is not a game breaking bug as that is what you would expect to happen if you did the same in real life. However if you did what you see in that set piece video in real life the defenders would ignore the players on the touchline and zonal mark the danger in the middle of the goal, that would happen in FM but not CM.

As i said somewhere else in this thread CM10 will be crap, it is never going to beat FM. But the fact is the reason people are looking at other games such as CM is because of how crap the FM series now is. You say FM10 will make the gap larger but from all previews nobody seems to agree, they think the series has gone backwards further. Comparing CM10 to FM10 is like a Saints fan going onto the Pompey forums and saying how great we are and how **** they are. While obviously they are in the Prem league they will always be better. But we have had our slump and are re-building while they are set to go into a slump. Meaning we will progress forwards and they will backwards. If that continues at somepoint we will over take them. The metaphor is the same with the FM and CM series. While CM improves FM doesn't. If that trend continues then it is just a matter of time before CM passes over FM. It is like as stated the Fifa/Pro Evo trend part 2. From all accounts of non biased people we should expect CM getting between 60 and 70 score wise and FM to get between 70 and 80. Hardly a victory to re-joice about considering one cost basically £27 more

Have any reviewers had a hands on with FM10? I don't think they have St Marco.

Have any reviewers had a hands on with FM10? I don't think they have St Marco.

Does not work like that. You don't get a copy to review months before it's release.....

You get sit down sessions with the publishers (in this case Sega) to help promote it's release. A lot of these sit downs have started as one person i know for 100% fact has been to one. If you re-read the other thread your see i mention that already. I mention the vibe which he re-layed info to me was not so great. Beta testers such as yourself are supposed to be bound to non disclosure agreements and that is why stuff is not on the tinternet in regards to their views, yet. You will see the "hand's on" impressions from the various websites within a week or two. Obviously that would mean a demo would be also coming in 2 weeks or so. And then we will see if what i have said is right in that generally people think it is not that great or if your right and that it is better then 2009 wont we

I've just downloaded the demo and I think it's terrible! It's confusing what to do as a newcomer, searching for players and having stats out of 100 is not as easy to tell as in FM. As a regular FM player it is so much easier on the eye and layout means such easier navigation through screens which this just doesn't have. Ok the 3d pitch might be a bit better but overall I think it's not even worth the £2.51 you could pay for it

I've just downloaded the demo and I think it's terrible! It's confusing what to do as a newcomer, searching for players and having stats out of 100 is not as easy to tell as in FM. As a regular FM player it is so much easier on the eye and layout means such easier navigation through screens which this just doesn't have. Ok the 3d pitch might be a bit better but overall I think it's not even worth the £2.51 you could pay for it

See I find the layout more simplistic and easier to get to grips with than any FM…

Searching for players is nearly identical to FM… So I can’t quite understand what you mean there?

And the reason for them scrapping the 1-20 system makes complete sense:

The reason we decided to do away with the 1-20 system was to help with the scouting. When we show an attribute on a player we have 80% knowledge on we wanted to say it was between 61-68 if we'd gone with the 1-20 system we'd have had to show 13. There wouldn't be enough granularity there.

So in order to better the scouting system, they had to scrap the old system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Adq0cjN3Y

Some more evidence of the players having no AI.

I love how the keeper pauses to ponder before he does the deed.

See I find the layout more simplistic and easier to get to grips with than any FM…

 

Searching for players is nearly identical to FM… So I can’t quite understand what you mean there?

 

And the reason for them scrapping the 1-20 system makes complete sense:

 

The reason we decided to do away with the 1-20 system was to help with the scouting. When we show an attribute on a player we have 80% knowledge on we wanted to say it was between 61-68 if we'd gone with the 1-20 system we'd have had to show 13. There wouldn't be enough granularity there.

 

So in order to better the scouting system, they had to scrap the old system.

I understand the 1-20 system scrapping now but still don't like it. With regards to searching, FM seems to be easier to search for certain things, having all the boxes and things to tick doesn't work for me like FM. So I must have been playing FM too long. Might buy it anyway, had Saints doing alright because of the set peice glitch but back to Fm for now

Been playing it over the weekend, love it.

So things like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Adq0cjN3Y don't worry you?

So things like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Adq0cjN3Y don't worry you?

Okay that is it, time to bring out the FM videos showing FM is just as bad

(that is just as bad as that one)

or how about these gems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3vgMJp_Es

Or this classic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDVDY_ImIhM

etc etc

All games have bugs, those bugs did not ruin your enjoyment of the FM game last year so why should those effect his?

Do any of those happen in 9.0.3 or FM10? No they don't.

The AI in CM is non existent. Will Eidos release patches beyond the 11th Sept to correct problems? No

It is a beta demo released 3 weeks before the game goes on sale. If they can't sort it out in 2 years of development time they have no chance in under 3 weeks. Remember it takes time for a game to go into manufacture/distribution to shops and that process will happen along time before 11th September.

Although I think FM looks good (I especially like the look fo the tactics wizard, some thing that has been too over complicated in the past), FM has hardly covered itself in glory in relation to being bug free on release....

Do any of those happen in 9.0.3 or FM10? No they don't.

 

The AI in CM is non existent. Will Eidos release patches beyond the 11th Sept to correct problems? No

Hopefully they won’t have to and the game will be a lot smoother upon release! - Also can you post some sort of official CM source where they say they will not be bringing out any patches after release? I’m struggling to find anything…

I’m not sure if those videos are as of the 9.0.3 patch, but regardless... There are still many problems with FM. Marek Hamsik ring any bells?

There will be issues with both games, probably more so on CM due to the fact they have almost completely overhauled the game. They are experimenting, living dangerously, offering new untried things. It’s to be expected.

offering new untried things

Apart from the (flawed) set piece creator what does CM10 have that FM doesn't?

The list the other way round is huge.

Do any of those happen in 9.0.3

so it took them patches to get it right.. nutter

so it took them patches to get it right.. nutter

Irrelevant as we are taking about the present and at present FM doesn't have those bugs. CM does have those bugs.

FM has changed the way it has been developed/tested this year and I predict will have far fewer bugs than ever before.

My turn

My first point to MLG would be that FM does not have a create a set piece facility to the extent that CM (from the video footage only) appears to have, so its impossible to compare what would happen in FM under the same scenario.

My second would be that FM has been rubbish since 07, which was the best management sim ever IMO. 08's match engine was so full of bugs at release that it ruined the game for me, the press conferences annoyed me, added nothing followed by a plethora of offsides, long range wonder goals and about 7 injuries. Patched it was, but never felt as accurate as the previous match engine. For me FM09 was just FM08 with shyte 3d graphics, which in themselves caused problems for loads of users with lower end GPUs but did not add anything for those who could run it with no problems.

I am going to give the CM10 demo a shot, and if its w@nk then so be it, but the FM series is flawed, going in the wrong direction and losing my support.

My turn

 

My first point to MLG would be that FM does not have a create a set piece facility to the extent that CM (from the video footage only) appears to have, so its impossible to compare what would happen in FM under the same scenario.

 

It is more than just set pieces. That video shows that players blindly mark the player where ever they go and seemingly have no AI. This simply does not happen in FM.

the FM series is flawed, going in the wrong direction and losing my support.

Why flawed and what direction should it go?

It is more than just set pieces. That video shows that players blindly mark the player where ever they go and seemingly have no AI. This simply does not happen in FM.

Why flawed and what direction should it go?

I'll play the demo and find out for myself how the match engine is on CM.

SI needed to leave the match engine where it was in FM07 and start working on the 3d in 08, they might have got it looking good by now and working smoothly, at which point the game should be made more immersive in terms of your character and other characters in the game.

The 3D is only a representation of the match engine, it is not in itself the match engine (which can work independently from the 3D in the form of 2D or just text commentary).

The 3D has been in development now for 4 years. You will see significant changes this year with animated crowds, stadiums, realistic pitch degradation, better lighting effects, weather and over 100 new player animations.

SWOS is better than the new Football Managers.

I've got high hopes for the next FM (yet again).

In the past I've always had them pre-ordered but am going to give it a few weeks this time around as I've just not enjoyed the last few installments.

Why do they insist in additing in new features (e.g. the press conferences/ managing every aspect of morning and afternoon training etc) rather than improving and de-bugging the game that they already had?

The beauty of the original FM games (or CM as they were) was the playability of them and striking the right balance between "real managemnet" and over complexity. Something that has been lost (IMO) in the drive to add as many different features as possible.

FWIW it still looks better than CM though