Ramiez, time to settle or not good enough?

Set up the goal that wasn't given. A lovely one two. Scored our only goal. Yet still he gets slagged off coz he gave the ball away a few times and cocked up a free kick.

Don't drive a potential world class player out of the club with your Neanderthal views

he's 22 and has 5 goals for us and a few assists. It's his first season in the prem. Imagine what he will be like in a few years time.

Yeah, but its much easier to criticise players (and managers and chairmen...) and then declare "I'm glad I was proved wrong" if/when they come good...

he's 22 and has 5 goals for us and a few assists. It's his first season in the prem. Imagine what he will be like in a few years time.

100% agreed.

His free kicks were poor yesterday - but most other parts of his game are excellent. He'll be a great player next season and beyond if we can keep him. I say "can" because I suspect most clubs would recognise the obvious potential talent that some of our bedwetting posters on here apparently do not

It's the expectations that's the problem. £12m is a huge sum to pay in the context of what Saints have afforded in the past. Hence we all expect him to be our star player. If it was one of the big four who had bought him, as a 23-year old who's new to the country, he'd be on the bench learning the ropes for half a season. Instead the pressure has been there to play him and he's suffering. Unfortunately, with performances like yesterday's the team is not the best it can be, so there's a case for using him as an impact player from the bench for the last three games. Then he can get a decent pre-season behind him and come back refreshed.

Start Puncheon ahead of Ramirez?

Southampton's only surving Brain Transplant Donor.

Still, I can see why some call for this, Punch runs around a lot.

Just a shame he NEVER looks up to see who he could make a pass to.

He will be class but what we need to remember is that he is 21/22. He is 1000 miles from home and spent his earlier professional years in Serie A where the style of football is totally different. He ALWAYS was going to need this season to settle.

If/when we're mathematically safe I'd like to see how we look with Ramirez sitting in the middle behind our two quickest forwards (Rodriquez and Mayuka) running onto his through balls.

Gaston needs time and clearly has a class about him that others haven't got. However, anyone that says he had better than a very mediocre performance yesterday needs their eyes testing. On many occasions he gave the ball away far too cheaply. At times I can forgive him for giving the ball away by trying to thread a pass through/split the opposing defence, but not when we give the ball away in the middle if the park under no pressure at all.

Gaston's set piece delivery was, as it has already been said, terrible yesterday. However, his work rate was much better I thought yesterday, and he chased people and put pressure on the West Ham players when they had the ball. His finish was excellent, yes fortunate to get there, but he took it very well. I have to say I thought he was much better than our captain yesterday and I don't see many having a go at him for a lack of impact on the game.

£12Million, not at the moment, but he has the quality and just needs to keep his work rate high and work on his set pieces!

Gashton.

Have faith - he will come good

In the interest of accuracy, not all of his free kicks were rubbish. The delivery for Lamberts chance that didn't cross the line was fast and accurate, which I guess is what MP was seeing when he got him to take them. Are people only capable of retrieving 10 minutes of game from their heads?

 

I think we will keep seeing him hauled off on 60 minutes, when he seems to lose the plot. Hopefully he will mature, but who knows?

I think that was the only free kick Ramirez took which wasn't intended as a direct strike on goal. If he's going to keep taking them he's going to have to learn to do that, if he can't then he shouldn't be taking them at all. We had several more freekicks given in really dangerous positions, Gaston wasted all of them. And arguably, set-pieces were likely to be our best chances against west hoof. The delivery Fox put in after Gaston went off actually threatened the goal.

He's a class player though, and took his goal very well indeed. I agree with the assessment about his workrate and passing in open play, but its telling that MP hauled him off after delivering possibly the worst dead-ball of the game.

Some FACTS (!) on the matter.

1) His dead ball delivery yesterday was, mainly, bitterly disappointing as it often has been this season.

2) He put himself about, had several sublime touches and took his goal beautifully.

3) Young man, foreign country, next season blah, blah, blah is perfectly valid stuff.

4) 99% of people on here regard MLT as the greatest saint, a unique talent and one they were happy to pay to watch every week. The reality is that if the internet had been around at the time, apart from a couple of seasons in the mid 90's a good chunk of them would have been having a similar debate about whether he was worth his place in the team on a weekly basis. Gaston's pefromance yesterday was on a different planet from numerous ones in Matty's career when he really did do just about nothing as well as not tackling or putting in a shift and being petulent. MLT was of course ALWAYS worth his place for what he could do on the days when it came off, and Gaston is no different for me until there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Yesterday I thought was one of Gaston's best efforts in a Saints shirt, seemed finally to be getting to grips with the game, I think him and jay Rod next season, along with Morgan will really exploit teams on the break, first time yesterday I really saw glimpses of what Gaston could do, yes free kicks and corners not the best but finally his movement was getting him more of the action.

Next year, full preseason will be the test

Personally I think the fella looks utter class.

Slash the singing until he actually earns it.

 

I mean we were singing his name over everyone else's before he even scored his first goal for us. I saw MLT doing better things and being given half the amount of dedicated singing.

A rare bit of empathy from the crowd and very welcome, or at least so I thought.

A transfer fee can become a millstone. Don't really see why he needs to justify the full fee in his first season.

He does look sublime in patches but it hasn't all clicked together for him yet but I am sure it will. I don't think playing him and Lallana together works at the moment.

He won't come good.

Bologna mugged Cortese with this one, £6m would be more like it imo.

I think he will prove to be a fantastic player for us, with a decent preseason behind him. At present I think he is almost too sharp for other team mates and is seeing things that others aren't. Can't remember which present Saints player tweeted that Ramirez was world class but do recall Phil "Fizzer" Neville stating he was the toughest opponet he'd faced this year. Admittedly his set pieces were simply dreadful but next season i think he will be a star for us.

Same bedwetters who failed to spot his superb interplay at Reading

Apart from a couple of free kicks which he wasted, gaston had a great game, he's scored a great goal and set up rickie twice

Please some one tell me what lalanna actually did well yesterday?

1) He mostly played very well yesterday

2) It was bloody windy of course he might overhit a few free kicks especially as there were all from the right wing where he was kicking with the wind

3) He scored the goal and it was a solo goal! The only other saints player who arguably had anything to do with that goal was Boruc with the original kick!

Without him we would have lost 1-0

His obviously still learning the game sure yesterday a few of his dead balls were utter s**t. Give him time and he will come right has moments of brilliance and a quality touch and is capable of finishing I reckon next season get a player or two of his caliber in and we will see the best of him

He needs to become more of a team player and distribute more and let somebody else take Set Pieces lol

Way to much negativity on here give the lad a chance to settle we paid 12 Million but it's early days yet I rate him

Apart from a couple of free kicks which he wasted, gaston had a great game, he's scored a great goal and set up rickie twice

 

Please some one tell me what lalanna actually did well yesterday?

Has anyone actually said that Lallana had a better game than Ramirez? I've not seen it.

Time to stop bleating on about his price tag. I am glad he is a Saints player and would rather have him than not. How much he cost us is not relevant in that regard. His price tag only becomes relevant if it prevents us from spending elsewhere, and there is no direct evidence of that is there?

I actually thought he played well yesterday. Worked hard in the first half and tried a couple of things that didn't come off but he deserved his goal.

3 poor set pieces ruined it for him unfortunately. Give the guy time for goodness sake. This is his first decent spell in the team without injury and he's only 22.

If I remember rightly, players like Schneiderlin were hardly setting the world alight in their first season (different players, I know).

The 'we must have a scapegoat even when we're doing well brigade' were obviously well out in force yesterday.

Time to stop bleating on about his price tag. I am glad he is a Saints player and would rather have him than not. How much he cost us is not relevant in that regard. His price tag only becomes relevant if it prevents us from spending elsewhere, and there is no direct evidence of that is there?

Why is his price not relevant? Its a benchmark that is used throughout football. For instance, whenever the Michu transfer is talked about its always mentioned how much of an incredibly good deal it was for Swansea. Likewise Andy Carroll being worth nowhere near the £35M that Liverpool paid for him. Price tag is relevant for all of our players; which is why I'm happy to say that Clyne and Davis were complete and utter bargains at their price, Boruc was a great deal, Yoshida looks decent value and JRod is increasingly looking like a massive bargain.

Why is his price not relevant? Its a benchmark that is used throughout football. For instance, whenever the Michu transfer is talked about its always mentioned how much of an incredibly good deal it was for Swansea. Likewise Andy Carroll being worth nowhere near the £35M that Liverpool paid for him. Price tag is relevant for all of our players; which is why I'm happy to say that Clyne and Davis were complete and utter bargains at their price, Boruc was a great deal, Yoshida looks decent value and JRod is increasingly looking like a massive bargain.

The OP asked if he was good enough. His price tag is completely irrelevant. We have him and that is that. Either he is an asset or he isn't, regardless of his price tag. We don't include players in the 1st team squad based on how much of a bargain they were.

He's good now but next year he'll be excellent. His touch is first class and will only get better.

The OP asked if he was good enough. His price tag is completely irrelevant. We have him and that is that. Either he is an asset or he isn't, regardless of his price tag. We don't include players in the 1st team squad based on how much of a bargain they were.

That's all true; but its also independent of asking whether we're getting value from the price tag. Both are a relevant discussion point. Especially so since the OP also said "Personally I haven't seen him put in many performances which have made me think he is anywhere near the level of £12 million pounds".

He's good now but next year he'll be excellent. His touch is first class and will only get better.

Is it possible to get better than first class then? Is this like when people say that he is 110% going to improve?

That's all true; but its also independent of asking whether we're getting value from the price tag. Both are a relevant discussion point. Especially so since the OP also said "Personally I haven't seen him put in many performances which have made me think he is anywhere near the level of £12 million pounds".

Then I refer the gentleman back to post #76

A good team is all about blending. Ramirez and Lallana give us the necessary unpredictability, Cork and Schneiderlin the bite, Clyne and Shaw the width and pace, Rodriguez the direct running, Lambert the vision and strength. Really talented unpredictable players play on the edge. We have plenty of safe players, too many and the team goes round in circles. Ramirez is brilliant at times and sometimes careless and frustrating. His lay off and turn at the Northam end as he peeled around the WHU defenders into the Penalty area was outstanding only negated by the WHU defender rugby tackling him and the knobs of officials ignoring it. The finish for the goal was class.

Is it possible to get better than first class then? Is this like when people say that he is 110% going to improve?

Boring.

He won't come good.

 

Bologna mugged Cortese with this one, £6m would be more like it imo.

So your prepared to pay 6m for someone who in your opinion will never come good! Well thats good business isnt it!

Lets have this Gaston debate halfway through next season!

I remember James Beaties first couple of seasons at around 22 He was in and out of the side and only scored a handful of goals and he only came down from up North. FFS give the boy a decent chance the fee was our choice not his and it is based on potential not current form given his age etc! So if we want good value for our money we should try support and encourage him and ensure we dont drive him away! Even Shearer took a little time to settle properly in his first few seasons with us (debut hattrick being the exception) and he came up through our youth team! Also worth observing how much better J Rod is with a bit od confidence the right position and the crowds support.

Boring.

Why can't you answer the question? It seems plenty on here are absolutely 100% certain all of our players are guaranteed to improve, what is the basis for this?

Would not be gutted if sold as I know Cortese would get a fantastic replacement.

We are building a team he is part of the future. Cortese got him and he is good! On what basis do you believe Cortese can find anyone better for the price next time? Would you rather have Carrol or Jarvis? Caroll is 23 and cost 35 million based on potential. Remember with young players you are payting for potential not on how good he is now!

Plenty of multi-million pound players giving the ball away in the FA Cup semi-final right now.

I think he will prove to be a great signing. People forget he is only young, miles from home and getting used to a different league.

He's obviously got the talent to be a top player, if he was a product from our academy people on here would be hailing him the new Pele.

Why can't you answer the question? It seems plenty on here are absolutely 100% certain all of our players are guaranteed to improve, what is the basis for this?

You now there is no guarantee it is a matter of judgement by the club and transfer committee! Looking at the glass half full for a change what is the basis on which you challenge our transfer committees judgement by infering he won't improve? Or do you believe you are a better judge of young players potential than our clubs transfer commitee?

Why can't you answer the question? It seems plenty on here are absolutely 100% certain all of our players are guaranteed to improve, what is the basis for this?

Obviously not 100% guaranteed to improve - but given his age and the regularity of his performances for a top drawer international team, the chances of him improving in the next few years are heavily weighted in his favour - IMHO

To be fair to Gaston, yesterday was not a game for him. Bucketing down, against a team of clod hoppers.

He will come good against real football teams in September - once this promised bloody global warming turns up!!

You now there is no guarantee it is a matter of judgement by the club and transfer committee! Looking at the glass half full for a change what is the basis on which you challenge our transfer committees judgement by infering he won't improve? Or do you believe you are a better judge of young players potential than our clubs transfer commitee?

I'm not judging either way am I. Im simply questioning The default opinion of most on here is that every young player we have is guaranteed to Improve. Its not like we are talking about 16-17 year olds but 21,22 year olds. There are plenty who don't. How many young stars are there whose career peters out to nothing. I would say there are more who never achieve anything in the game than ones who go onto to improve beyond all recognition and become world beaters.

A good team is all about blending. Ramirez and Lallana give us the necessary unpredictability, Cork and Schneiderlin the bite, Clyne and Shaw the width and pace, Rodriguez the direct running, Lambert the vision and strength. Really talented unpredictable players play on the edge. We have plenty of safe players, too many and the team goes round in circles. Ramirez is brilliant at times and sometimes careless and frustrating. His lay off and turn at the Northam end as he peeled around the WHU defenders into the Penalty area was outstanding only negated by the WHU defender rugby tackling him and the knobs of officials ignoring it. The finish for the goal was class.

This. Plus he's looked better alongside Rodriguez. We missed his movement up top yesterday and were too static at times.

To be fair to Gaston, yesterday was not a game for him. Bucketing down, against a team of clod hoppers.

 

He will come good against real football teams in September - once this promised bloody global warming turns up!!

And this is acceptable to you? I don't believe this really, but if it's what you believe and you think that's fine to have him playing for SOUTHAMPTON, then you sir are a fool.

Gaston is class, unfortunately a very large majority of our fans are utterly clueless about football so think someone who runs blindly into corners (de ridder), someone who "gets stuck in" (wooton) and someone who's first touch is the touch of a rapist (sharp) are better than players with genuine talent speaks volumes.

Gaston, Lambert and Jay Rod are going to work very, very well next season and i have a sneaky feeling Gaston is going to prove to me a seriously astute signing. Of course i don't doubt that many will jeopardise this by going on a witch hunt cause they know better than our manager (and the manager of an international team).

Gaston is class, unfortunately a very large majority of our fans are utterly clueless about football so think someone who runs blindly into corners (de ridder), someone who "gets stuck in" (wooton) and someone who's first touch is the touch of a rapist (sharp) are better than players with genuine talent speaks volumes.

I don't really think anyone thinks any of those players can hold a candle to Ramírez... surely?

And this is acceptable to you? I don't believe this really, but if it's what you believe and you think that's fine to have him playing for SOUTHAMPTON, then you sir are a fool.

You think that a flair player who thrives on the ball being on the deck and having time and space should suddenly be able to play a kicking game against a team of bullies?

How did Spain cope against Holland in the World Cup Final??

Sorry to ask, but have you ever watched top class football?

He has quality without a doubt, and he is young. Defo one for or European future.

Look around at what 12 million brought other clubs in the summer then tell me hes rubbish ! God how many more thread's do we need give the lad a chance to show his worth next season

Swansea got Michu for £2 million.. 1/6 of the price... must have about triple the goals?