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CORTESE - a personal and factual view of why Ms Liebherr was right.


Fitzhugh Fella

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Some of you posters go on about Cortese..

 

and once again attempt to suggest Rupert Lowe was Gods gift to Southampton Football Club.:rolleyes:

 

Those same posters know full well what our Rupert nearly did for this club...:mcinnes:

 

during and particularly in the latter stages of his dictatorship.

 

Thank goodness Cortese introduced Mr Liebherr to SFC

 

Rupert should never have weazled his way into Saints and so glad to see the back of him..

 

Now let us all concentrate on the future:)

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So he upset the OP, over in Prem football clubs terms, peanuts. Possibly upset a few more people too.

 

That means KL was right? Even though she wanted him to stay?

 

Ignoring the fact he was bleeding good at what he did. So, yeah he may not of been nice.

 

Cortese, like it or not rebuilt this club, with foundations stronger than it has had at any point in my time as a Saints fans, and plenty others will agree.

 

So he may not have funded it personally, but he used the funds available to him very well. Cash helped for sure, but cash alone does not equal success - plenty of other clubs demonstrate this.

 

I don't see the OP has a "factual view of why Ms Liebherr was right" at all. It's merely supposition and speculation based on an encounter and then extrapolated and exaggerated massively to fit one's own dislike (perhaps a justifiable dislike) for someone.

 

That indy article appears to have come from her camp. If the other articles are from camp Cortesem and there for untrustworthy PR why should we not treat stuff from camp KL with the same scrutiny? The truth, as with most things like this, most likely lies somewhere in the middle.

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High-powered businessman in 'Not hugging everyone in the office and never handing out free puppies' shocker.

 

Everyone has an opinion on what has gone on and on those involved, but most realise that their opinion counts for nothing and doesn't matter to anyone but themselves. Some people liked him, some didn't. I think we've all got that now

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High-powered businessman in 'Not hugging everyone in the office and never handing out free puppies' shocker.

 

Everyone has an opinion on what has gone on and on those involved, but most realise that their opinion counts for nothing and doesn't matter to anyone but themselves. Some people liked him, some didn't. I think we've all got that now

 

Read this book and then you will understand why he had to leave :

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0767915828

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:lol:

 

Alright mate.

 

Funny how all the staff that have said how much they enjoyed working with him and came out supporting him are being ignored.

 

all the staff?! from contacts i've had there have been plenty of people who hated working for him, look at the high turnover of people that have been through the business!

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:lol:

 

Alright mate.

 

Funny how all the staff that have said how much they enjoyed working with him and came out supporting him are being ignored.

 

Eh? One of the main traits of a sociopath is being charismatic and popular on the surface. A high percentage of them are tend to be leaders and heads of organisations. Read the descriptions in that book and tell me it doesn't sound exactly like nicola. What do you reckon he would score on hare's psychopathy test? Grandiose sense of self worth, charisma, charm, ruthlessness! It's all there.

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Like most fans I have spent the last 48 hours trawling through websites, reading the papers and listening to rumours from good and bad sources trying to piece together exactly why Cortese left and what is going to happen now.

Did he leave because Katharina Liebherr would not back his vision with finance? If so that is a worry because it tells us that in some ways we have reached the end of the road. But I don’t buy this. His pet spin doctors in the Mail and the BBC have been working hard, too hard methinks.

There is however an article in the Independent which I think, because of my own experiences with the man, is nearer the truth.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/nicola-cortese-chose-to-leave-and-was-not-forced-out-insist-southampton-9065638.html

 

The article says that Ms Liebherr wanted “basic corporate practice implemented” and that she needed “ a degree of oversight and accountability for Cortese’s running of the club”. It adds that Cortese should “not be answerable solely to himself”. Well, from where I sit that seems perfectly reasonable.

 

I mentioned earlier the many rumours and they include several claims that Cortese was, shall we say extremely personally extravagant with the Liebherr wealth. Now I don’t know about that but one thing I do know, speaking on a personal level, he tossed away approx £50,000 when he prohibited Hagiology Publishing’s “All the Saints” from the club shops when he learned that we had switched the book launch from the stadium to a local hotel after he had told us Francis Benali would not be allowed to attend. Now £50,000 is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, I accept, but a big company like Waterstones have told us they have been very grateful for their windfall as the consequence of being the sole outlet.

 

Because of a personal whim could Cortese really expect to deny the company this sort of money and not be answerable? He preached 100% professionalism, but surely he was being a little less than professional turning his back on any legitimate income no matter how small?

 

As I say, I know the facts of this particular story because I was directly involved but what other incidents were there that meant the Liebherr family were short-changed because of Cortese’s numerous feuds? We do know that he settled out of court with Francis Benali (one of many apparently in which he initiated litigation and then backed down at the final hour) so how much did that all cost the club – is there little wonder Katharina Liebherr finally decided enough is enough or at least attempt to reign in him a little? Basically she was only seeking to ensure there were safeguards towards her family’s investment. There is an old saying “count the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves”.

 

My involvement with him was, I accept, comparative “pennies” but I did get to learn first-hand just what he had become and, as a consequence, I am not in the least bit surprised Ms Liebherr acted how she has. I hope he never returns even if it is with a wealthier investor and for now I am going to trust Katharina, because one thing I know she may have plenty of wealth but it seems she also has “cojones”.

I think you hit the nail on the head despite some of his fanboys not wanting to believe about the other side of him.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

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Eh? One of the main traits of a sociopath is being charismatic and popular on the surface. A high percentage of them are tend to be leaders and heads of organisations. Read the descriptions in that book and tell me it doesn't sound exactly like nicola. What do you reckon he would score on hare's psychopathy test? Grandiose sense of self worth, charisma, charm, ruthlessness! It's all there.

 

No idea mate, never met him. Not going to try and psychoanalyse someone I havn't met.

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Eh? One of the main traits of a sociopath is being charismatic and popular on the surface. A high percentage of them are tend to be leaders and heads of organisations.

 

 

So this isn't a rant against NC as such, just that ruthless people tend to reach the higher echelons of management? Do you have the same distaste for all CEO's? Strange place to air that particular viewpoint but we're reminded daily that this is a forum for doing just that, so you carry on

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I think you hit the nail on the head despite some of his fanboys not wanting to believe about the other side of him.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

Sociopaths can't help it it's just who they are. Successful leaders sure but they always have that side to them which is their undoing in the end.

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Whatever agenda anyone may have, this is still a good OP and discussion.

 

I pretty well agree with the premise that NC was getting too big for his boots and beyond accountability. If that's true I'm impressed with KL's response.

 

I now lean firmly towards hoping she can put in a new CEO - probably one of her own - and continue her interest in the club. Just beginning to wonder whether, if NC comes back with a new investor he could be turning into Lowe MK II.

 

The choice of CEO will be interesting. An expert in selling would IMO not be good.

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I remain somewhat disappointed that Cortese has gone but only the passage of time will provide a proper view.

He has been very closely linked with the rise of the club to unexpected heights post Lowe era and for that we have to thank him and the owners for their input.

However there has been lots of associated baggage along the way, most of which has been touched upon here.

There is probably more to come and certainly a lot of people I know from the business world have not got a great deal of positives to say about him.

His attitude towards suppliers (and fans) could be portrayed by some as being symptomatic of a hard nosed business man but you have to build relationships with people (especially in a business as unique as Football) and, in quite a few respects, he did not display the attributes of a fully rounded Chief Executive in sympathy with the traditions of the club.

That said when you compare him with some of his counterparts at other clubs he comes out as a shining example.

Finally I wonder if the recent Clattenburg nonsense may have had some impact on the owners view of NC's stewardship?

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I liked the bit in the Independent about KL now being "the accidental owner of a Premier League Football Club" - what a position to be in, how many of us would like that??!!

 

One thing in all this that grates a bit is about NC stressing the Academy. We have been pretty good at producing fantastic young players for about 30 years now, whist the facilities may have improved as per the Club modernising in general, the principle cannot be claimed totally by the current regime.

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I now fully support Ms Liebherr in the hope that in doing the very best for herself and her family....Southampton Football Club and supporters

 

will become , if not already , a big part of her life and business way into the future.

 

 

Three cheers for Ms Liebherr.........Your father will be sooooo proud.:)

 

 

 

 

Personally hope Ms Liebherr gets the new CEO on board asap and hopefully stays with the club for the long haul:)

 

 

 

 

I am now in the Ms Liebherr gang ......with bigger conkers than most:D

 

 

Given that most reports of the situation state categorically that the main reason for Cortese resigning was Katrina Liebherr's wish to sell the club, I somehow think you might be disappointed.

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I would be interested to hear your counter argument as to why he is not a sociopath.

 

"Grandiose sense of self worth, charisma, charm, ruthlessness"

 

Have you actually spent much time with him? Or have you gathered this info through the press and speculation? If the first, crack on. If not, I think it's a bit silly to start banding around these sorts of terms.

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The club would have got £25 on every copy of All the Saints they sold at £35. They have no overheads (other than existing ones) or expenses or risk as it is sale or return. We paid for everything in the book's production. Over the last decade they sold over 3000 copies of "In That Number" at a similar price and it is still selling. 3000x25 = £75,000. That is virtual 100% profit. Cortese turned his back on a similar amount of money because for once he did not get his way ie Benali was able to attend the launch. My point is he had no right to be so cavalier with that amount of money, it was not his to forfeit. And for those who still think this is peanuts, see what Guided Missile has said - suggesting it is just the tip of an iceberg.

 

Going slightly off thread but if the club can make £25 on a £35 cover price suggesting you only charge them £10 for it, why aren't you selling them yourselves on Amazon at say £19.99 and make yourselves a tenner a copy (less amazon expenses) more than if it sold in club shop. At that price I'd have clicked the buy with one click button without hesitating, when I saw one in Waterstones at £35 I didn't even look inside.I doubt I'm the only one.

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Reading between the hysterical reaction on here and in the media, the doomsday scenarios being predicted by some and the abuse given to Katrina Liebherr for wanting to be involved in the company she owns there is one point that people seem to be ignoring. It seems that all Katrina Liebherr was wanting to do was introduce some form of corporate governance in the company she owned wholey so that Cortese wasn't just answerable to himself. Isnt this standard practice in most businesses? It's a very dangerous positon to be in when one employee has the total and unquestionable control of a business. You have to ask the question as to why Cortese was prepared to walk away from a job he was doing very well, indeed in a lot of peoples eyes he could do no wrong, a very large salary mid way through his "vision" for simply being asked to be accountable to the person who owned the company and who was ultimately his boss.

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I

"Grandiose sense of self worth, charisma, charm, ruthlessness"

 

Have you actually spent much time with him? Or have you gathered this info through the press and speculation? If the first, crack on. If not, I think it's a bit silly to start banding around these sorts of terms.

 

Well I have met him once but you don't have to have spent time with the man to see those traits in abundance. I mean I've never spent any time with Steve jobs but he was clearly a psychopath you can look at the evidence and judge.

 

Pochettino himself stressed his charisma and charm. Numerous actions point to his ruthlessness and I would argue the grandiose sense of self worth is clear in many things, mostly recently those doom articles in the paper. You don't need to have met someone to be able to judge the likelihood of them being a sociopath through their actions. I suggest you read up on it if you are interested since you don't seem to understand what a sociopath is.

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Reading between the hysterical reaction on here and in the media, the doomsday scenarios being predicted by some and the abuse given to Katrina Liebherr for wanting to be involved in the company she owns there is one point that people seem to be ignoring. It seems that all Katrina Liebherr was wanting to do was introduce some form of corporate governance in the company she owned wholey so that Cortese wasn't just answerable to himself. Isnt this standard practice in most businesses? It's a very dangerous positon to be in when one employee has the total and unquestionable control of a business. You have to ask the question as to why Cortese was prepared to walk away from a job he was doing very well, indeed in a lot of peoples eyes he could do no wrong, a very large salary mid way through his "vision" for simply being asked to be accountable to the person who owned the company and who was ultimately his boss.

 

Because he is a sociopath! Because Sociopaths crave absolute power and will not concede to anyone. It's so very clear that you traits that made us successful also led to his downfall.

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Reading between the hysterical reaction on here and in the media, the doomsday scenarios being predicted by some and the abuse given to Katrina Liebherr for wanting to be involved in the company she owns there is one point that people seem to be ignoring. It seems that all Katrina Liebherr was wanting to do was introduce some form of corporate governance in the company she owned wholey so that Cortese wasn't just answerable to himself. Isnt this standard practice in most businesses? It's a very dangerous positon to be in when one employee has the total and unquestionable control of a business. You have to ask the question as to why Cortese was prepared to walk away from a job he was doing very well, indeed in a lot of peoples eyes he could do no wrong, a very large salary mid way through his "vision" for simply being asked to be accountable to the person who owned the company and who was ultimately his boss.

 

Two, in fact. From the BBC-

 

"But Cortese, who disagrees with Katharina Liebherr's wish to sell the club, submitted his resignation almost three months ago, when Southampton were third in the Premier League."

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Yes, but we'll never know, will we ? Succeeding in bringing the money is isnt the minor detail you are making it out to be; NC managed it, Lowe didnt.

 

And being a hard-arsed over expensive business transactions goes with the territory; the mess Lowe made of SFC did a lot more damage to local business when we went into admin than NC has. I seem to recall NC and ML paid off a load of the debts left to local businesses from his last reign.

 

BTW, I did meet him over the summer. Only for a brief exchange of words, however.

 

I can just imagine that exchange, respectfully in humour.

 

"Hi Nicola, can I have your autograph"

 

"feck off Alps"

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Ummm if he resigned how will he be due compensation???? More ****e press work. Annoyed me this morning, because Cortese has gone our dream with the academy is all gone...funny that as every Chairman we have had lately has had the same principle even Lord Voldemort.

 

 

I've found the original article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2540898/Pochettino-ready-walk-Saints-faces-fight-hold-30m-rated-Shaw-Chelsea-City-hover.html

 

 

'Cortese, who intends to return to St Mary’s as chairman of another Barclays Premier League club, faces a massive compensation battle with Liebherr. Although, technically, he resigned, the Liebherr family are still negotiating a settlement.'

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I liked the bit in the Independent about KL now being "the accidental owner of a Premier League Football Club" - what a position to be in, how many of us would like that??!!

 

One thing in all this that grates a bit is about NC stressing the Academy. We have been pretty good at producing fantastic young players for about 30 years now, whist the facilities may have improved as per the Club modernising in general, the principle cannot be claimed totally by the current regime.

 

funny you should say that as i have just been having that discussion at work, a colleague said "you've got to praise Cortese, he brought through all those young players you've got"

 

which is crazy as i think all of them joined the club BEFORE cortese was here, so the likes of Shaw, Ward-Prowse, Chambers were spotted by the academy set up previously and at the time the club was run by Lowe.

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So this isn't a rant against NC as such, just that ruthless people tend to reach the higher echelons of management? Do you have the same distaste for all CEO's? Strange place to air that particular viewpoint but we're reminded daily that this is a forum for doing just that, so you carry on

 

Not all CEOs are Psychopaths but many are and many can cause an awful lot of damage. I agree with the view of the author who believes they are a malevolent force in society who should be avoided. One of her main arguments are that whilst they may bring success to a company initially, they will always end in failure eventually since they only care about themselves. I suggest you read the book I posted up earlier for the details since it is fascinating (and we'll reviewed) or anything by Hare.

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Two, in fact. From the BBC-

 

"But Cortese, who disagrees with Katharina Liebherr's wish to sell the club, submitted his resignation almost three months ago, when Southampton were third in the Premier League."

 

Maybe that is true maybe that is not, only they know. There have also been reports that governance is all she wanted.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/nicola-cortese-chose-to-leave-southampton-and-was-not-forced-out-insist-club-9065638.html

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you could use his Australian road trip as base material I think.

 

I went to Thailand for three weeks and Australia. Had to return from Australia after three weeks as I had an illness in the family. The timing sacked but I'm glad I returned when I did because it wasn't fun when I found out. Blew a couple of grand going over there but that's life!

Edited by hypochondriac
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Nope....I thought she just had SFC and Mali? Apologies in advance for my ignorance :)

Trousers, I think that is right, and MALI effectively no longer exists. Only one of the constituent parts is still trading, all the others were closed AFAIK. KL resigned from the MALI-Motan group last Autumn apparently (at the same time as NC). Did KL have other business interests of her own that were nothing to do with Markus? Maybe, would be good to know because there is nothing out there on the interweb that says one way or another. Maybe still some people think she is something to do with the main Liebherr business, which she isn't. There is a lot of crap written, not least by the Echo that I jsu found about her being part of the massive Liebherr empire, people putting 2 and 2 together and making multi billions. Markus was not part of that empire, he sold his stake in it many years ago and went his own way.

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Given that most reports of the situation state categorically that the main reason for Cortese resigning was Katrina Liebherr's wish to sell the club, I somehow think you might be disappointed.

 

I still live in hope:D

 

If Ms Liebherr is not the long term...

 

(i think she will be for some reason)

 

Hopefully she does well by us for now and if/when she moves the club on.

 

Not sure that selling the club was the main reason.........

 

Suggestions that the lady wanted some accountability and NC wanted to continue in his own way......BUT what do we know..

 

Just the best for SFC...for most of us:rolleyes:

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perhaps slightly self indulgent to start a new thread that says very little we didnt already know

 

But sometimes major threads get bogged down by all the handbagging between 'warriors' and it is necessary to have a new thread to focus on specific aspects. (I for one get turned off).

 

Thanks Duncan for opening this aspect of the debate.

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Trousers, I think that is right, and MALI effectively no longer exists. Only one of the constituent parts is still trading, all the others were closed AFAIK. KL resigned from the MALI-Motan group last Autumn apparently (at the same time as NC). Did KL have other business interests of her own that were nothing to do with Markus? Maybe, would be good to know because there is nothing out there on the interweb that says one way or another. Maybe still some people think she is something to do with the main Liebherr business, which she isn't. There is a lot of crap written, not least by the Echo that I jsu found about her being part of the massive Liebherr empire, people putting 2 and 2 together and making multi billions. Markus was not part of that empire, he sold his stake in it many years ago and went his own way.

 

 

He didn't even sell his stake AFAIK he gave it away to his brothers,sisters, cousins and what have you. He went out on his own with Mali and it's 5 constituent parts. AFAIK everything has been liquidated apart from a sort of consultancy affair that has had it's HG moved from the Friburg canton (where the family resides) to Zurich.Up until not long back Cortese still ran everything with 1 other director, bloke called Werner or Hehli .

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Going slightly off thread but if the club can make £25 on a £35 cover price suggesting you only charge them £10 for it, why aren't you selling them yourselves on Amazon at say £19.99 and make yourselves a tenner a copy (less amazon expenses) more than if it sold in club shop. At that price I'd have clicked the buy with one click button without hesitating, when I saw one in Waterstones at £35 I didn't even look inside.I doubt I'm the only one.
that did surprise me. Im sure the people who purchased a copy from the authors did not expect there to be such a massive mark up. I was under the impression that they were likely to be out of pocket but with those types of margin we ought to get a pen and start scribbling a book on Saints. £35 is a lot of money for a book and if the club were making £25 a time they were foolish not to have it on sale. They could even treat the fans well and discount them at £20, double your money is pretty good afterall
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Maybe that is true maybe that is not, only they know. There have also been reports that governance is all she wanted.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/nicola-cortese-chose-to-leave-southampton-and-was-not-forced-out-insist-club-9065638.html

 

tbh Turks, I usually tend to believe the BBC above other sources. In any case, plenty of other reports have referred to the same thing.

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Two, in fact. From the BBC-

 

"But Cortese, who disagrees with Katharina Liebherr's wish to sell the club, submitted his resignation almost three months ago, when Southampton were third in the Premier League."

 

Is that a fact, or just some bullsh*t Cortese passed on to a friendly journalist?

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I've found the original article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2540898/Pochettino-ready-walk-Saints-faces-fight-hold-30m-rated-Shaw-Chelsea-City-hover.html

 

 

'Cortese, who intends to return to St Mary’s as chairman of another Barclays Premier League club, faces a massive compensation battle with Liebherr. Although, technically, he resigned, the Liebherr family are still negotiating a settlement.'

 

I don't think any other football club will give him the autonomy and power he craves. That's not to say that I don't rate him, he did a fantastic job here, but threw his toys out of the pram when he was told to go on the naughty step.

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How much money has he lost the club with loss of shirt sales? If I owned the club I would question decisions like these and would want some input. He's done a brilliant job, but he was far from perfect.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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In summary yes cortese was an egotistical dictator but he made things happen and moved the club up a level he didn't just sit around and make excuses like some chairmen he had real ambitions for the club and though they were perceived as unrealistic he definitely had the drive and stubborness to succeed! SFC will continue but whatever way you look at it its a huge loss in my opinion.

 

Aren't all success full businessmen flawed? They either have tremendous business acumen and no people skills ala Cortese or vice versa or some other compromise!

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