Toby

OMG. Alps and Dalek together. I'll just go and top myself now.

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I think this post of mine was wasted on the other thread: http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2210297

Anyone want to take the honours of digging out today's "this time last year" posts?

Again...if Reed and Wilson feel they did everything they could to sign him since the end of the season then fine, nothing more we could have done.

If Toby chose Spurs over Saints then fine, nothing more we could have done.

But...if we didnt ever actually get to the stage of giving him the choice through never actually agreeing a deal with AM then thats disappointing, especially at the relatively bargain fee they are paying, the fact we had a year to plan our strategy, and that at least a month or so ago the player was happy to sign here.

I would say that is a very fair summary and the legal action threat shows that in some way or other the whole thing certainly wasn't within our control.

I think this post of mine was wasted on the other thread: http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2210297

 

Anyone want to take the honours of digging out today's "this time last year" posts?

Brilliant. You got yourself a thread right there.

It needs a grand title, and there is an obvious one.

"Everything is easy in hindsight"

I think this is up there with Saintswebs hand wringing worst.

Again...if Reed and Wilson feel they did everything they could to sign him since the end of the season then fine, nothing more we could have done.

 

If Toby chose Spurs over Saints then fine, nothing more we could have done.

 

But...if we didnt ever actually get to the stage of giving him the choice through never actually agreeing a deal with AM then thats disappointing, especially at the relatively bargain fee they are paying, the fact we had a year to plan our strategy, and that at least a month or so ago the player was happy to sign here.

 

I would say that is a very fair summary and the legal action threat shows that in some way or other the whole thing certainly wasn't within our control.

No no no we are run by a bunch of arrogant incompetants ! Read above.....the last 5 years were a dream. We thought we had him then AM decided otherwise. How that is our fault? the gutless lot above can answer.

Players come and go I still am upset we sold O'Neill to Huddersfield.

As good as.

 

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At least give it an over like Alps did.

Again...if Reed and Wilson feel they did everything they could to sign him since the end of the season then fine, nothing more we could have done.

 

If Toby chose Spurs over Saints then fine, nothing more we could have done.

 

But...if we didnt ever actually get to the stage of giving him the choice through never actually agreeing a deal with AM then thats disappointing, especially at the relatively bargain fee they are paying, the fact we had a year to plan our strategy, and that at least a month or so ago the player was happy to sign here.

 

I would say that is a very fair summary and the legal action threat shows that in some way or other the whole thing certainly wasn't within our control.

My hunch is that Les Reed and co *were* satisfied that the contract situation was watertight but that some kind of loophole recently emerged. *Maybe* the way the contract was worded meant that the supposed 'end of June' deadline date for AM's £1.5m buy out clause ALSO applied to our £6.8m purchase clause. Maybe this went under the radar due to our since departed legal chap not spotting it, or it getting lost in translation, when the contract was drawn up this time last year. I'm convinced as I can be that the timing of his departure is too coincidental not to be connected to this affair.

So, "the club" may have been acting under what they believed to be a watertight contract when in fact there was some ambiguity that only recently came to light when they re-scrutinised the contract wording.

All supposition on my part, obviously, but the pieces of the jigsaw seem to fit.

My hunch is that Les Reed and co *were* satisfied that the contract situation was watertight but that some kind of loophole recently emerged. *Maybe* the way the contract was worded meant that the supposed 'end of June' deadline date for AM's £1.5m buy out clause ALSO applied to our £6.8m purchase clause. Maybe this went under the radar due to our since departed legal chap not spotting it, or it getting lost in translation, when the contract was drawn up this time last year. I'm convinced as I can be that the timing of his departure is too coincidental not to be connected to this affair.

 

So, "the club" may have been acting under what they believed to be a watertight contract when in fact there was some ambiguity that only recently came to light when they re-scrutinised the contract wording.

 

All supposition on my part, obviously, but the pieces of the jigsaw seem to fit.

Seems feasible. And now we're trying to somehow retrieve the situation.

And I agree losing Toby would be a serious enough thing to prompt the severance.

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So, any actual news yet?

@svenclaes: For those people who still doubt me: official announcement Toby Alderweireld will be in a few hours. No need to refresh @SpursOfficial.

To lose out on your top target because you havent agreed a fee despite the price being seemingly affordable will certainly be a massive blow to Koeman and the Club.

But at least it hasnt dragged on into the season. Plenty of time to get a replacement before then.

My hunch is that Les Reed and co *were* satisfied that the contract situation was watertight but that some kind of loophole recently emerged. *Maybe* the way the contract was worded meant that the supposed 'end of June' deadline date for AM's £1.5m buy out clause ALSO applied to our £6.8m purchase clause. Maybe this went under the radar due to our since departed legal chap not spotting it, or it getting lost in translation, when the contract was drawn up this time last year. I'm convinced as I can be that the timing of his departure is too coincidental not to be connected to this affair.

 

So, "the club" may have been acting under what they believed to be a watertight contract when in fact there was some ambiguity that only recently came to light when they re-scrutinised the contract wording.

 

All supposition on my part, obviously, but the pieces of the jigsaw seem to fit.

And an interesting question. Which took precedence, the right to buy or AM 's right to cancel?

If the latter, maybe Saints thought the best approach was to let it expire, then try to pay €6.8m. Failing that, have to compete on the open market.

A mess.

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My hunch is that Les Reed and co *were* satisfied that the contract situation was watertight but that some kind of loophole recently emerged. *Maybe* the way the contract was worded meant that the supposed 'end of June' deadline date for AM's £1.5m buy out clause ALSO applied to our £6.8m purchase clause. Maybe this went under the radar due to our since departed legal chap not spotting it, or it getting lost in translation, when the contract was drawn up this time last year. I'm convinced as I can be that the timing of his departure is too coincidental not to be connected to this affair.

 

So, "the club" may have been acting under what they believed to be a watertight contract when in fact there was some ambiguity that only recently came to light when they re-scrutinised the contract wording.

 

All supposition on my part, obviously, but the pieces of the jigsaw seem to fit.

Which would be pretty poor from a Club that presents itself as extremely professional and has had a year to study the specifics.

If true or near true of course.

Hopefully he just chose them over us, that way none of the clause stuff even matters.

@svenclaes: For those people who still doubt me: official announcement Toby Alderweireld will be in a few hours. No need to refresh @SpursOfficial.

So the comments yesterday from TA's dad/agent, were bs then.

The facts will come out once he's signed for either Saints or Spurs, until then we can make no assumptions!

We have no idea what is going on, so accusing the club over under reacting is ridiculous at this stage

@svenclaes: For those people who still doubt me: official announcement Toby Alderweireld will be in a few hours. No need to refresh @SpursOfficial.

I may be wrong, but is he suggesting spurs fans needn't bother refreshing, because he's coming to us? Or is that wishful thinking?!

Which would be pretty poor from a Club that presents itself as extremely professional and has had a year to study the specifics.

 

The club (or any company) employs people to do the scrutiny. If the people paid to scrutinise contracts miss something that later proves to be crucial then that's human error rather than being systemic throughout the company.

Anyway, this is obviously all guesswork and I don't wish to cast aspersions on someone who may have had nothing to do with it. It just happens to be one possibility out of many potential theories.

I may be wrong, but is he suggesting spurs fans needn't bother refreshing, because he's coming to us? Or is that wishful thinking?!

Svenclaes earlier tweeted Toby to Spurs done deal, so yes, wishful thinking.

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So the comments yesterday from TA's dad/agent, were bs then.

Not really. Just wildly over - interpreted by people on here. He gave a vague politician style "no concrete deal done" statement and the forum went nuts.

"This trumps everything!". Or, no.

Complete f**k-up, in my opinion.

 

Board were overconfident at how last summer turned out and all the plaudits received.

 

As has been said, the most successful back 5 in the EPL from last season is now almost completely dismantled. And this is where we will have problems this season.

Board over confident after last six summers?

Or maybe you just don't know what happened?

TA has sailed off to Spurs. Time to move on to his replacement.

I can't believe how we have managed to balls this up and let those utter septic c**ts take him from under our noses. Salt on wounds springs to mind.

There's only one club I ****ing hate more than Spurs.

I can't believe how we have managed to balls this up and let those utter septic c**ts take him from under our noses. Salt on wounds springs to mind.

 

There's only one club I ****ing hate more than Spurs.

Southampton?

Southampton?

Uncalled for but

The facts will come out once he's signed for either Saints or Spurs, until then we can make no assumptions!

 

We have no idea what is going on, so accusing the club over under reacting is ridiculous at this stage

Unbelievably accurate sir. Spot on.

I think this has been an almighty cock up.

Which would be pretty poor from a Club that presents itself as extremely professional and has had a year to study the specifics.

 

If true or near true of course.

 

Hopefully he just chose them over us, that way none of the clause stuff even matters.

Human error from (possibly) one employee happens every where I've ever worked...doesn't make the entire orginaziton poor.

I really don't see why people blame the club. As someone said earlier the player himself signed the spurs contract not us (if true).

I can't believe how we have managed to balls this up and let those utter septic c**ts take him from under our noses. Salt on wounds springs to mind.

 

There's only one club I ****ing hate more than Spurs.

Deary deary deary me.

Just because their were some (empty?) platitudes about saying how much he enjoyed himself here, people think that Toby was certain to come back. FFS he, the player, Toby, has a choice in where he wants to go. HE HAS (by the looks of it) CHOSEN TO GO TO SPURS. Players do have a choice where they want to go, a free will. While I am sure he is grateful for all the work we did with him that has allowed him to move on, he is looking to the future and sees Spurs a better bet than us to sign a permanent deal rather than a loan one. What is so hard to understand about that? As no one knows what we have offered or what Spurs have offered or how Toby is thinking, it is beyond asinine to criticise the board.

If I was him, and had no attachment to Saints or Spurs (which he doesn't), I would choose Spurs over us for the same reasons that seem to have come out. Better pay. More chance of European football. Playing with one's international partner at CB is the cherry on top. I'm sure that he doesn't view Spurs as a bunch of ****s like we do.

So really, it is embarrassing all those lambasting the board. Have to wonder whether those doing it are all 16 years old as they are displaying staggering amounts of ignorance and naivety.

The moaning over the club on here is incredibly cringe-worthy to read.

1) - Nothing has been announced yet, and whilst that is still the case there is still hope (although that's what kills you)

2) - No one actually knows what happened. They're going by media spun stories designed to suit specific angles. As no one actually knows what happend, then it's impossible to assume the club have done wrong here. There is literally very little information out there to even come to the conclusion.

Deary deary deary me.

 

Just because their were some (empty?) platitudes about saying how much he enjoyed himself here, people think that Toby was certain to come back. FFS he, the player, Toby, has a choice in where he wants to go. HE HAS (by the looks of it) CHOSEN TO GO TO SPURS. Players do have a choice where they want to go, a free will. While I am sure he is grateful for all the work we did with him that has allowed him to move on, he is looking to the future and sees Spurs a better bet than us to sign a permanent deal rather than a loan one. What is so hard to understand about that? As no one knows what we have offered or what Spurs have offered or how Toby is thinking, it is beyond asinine to criticise the board.

 

If I was him, and had no attachment to Saints or Spurs (which he doesn't), I would choose Spurs over us for the same reasons that seem to have come out. Better pay. More chance of European football. Playing with one's international partner at CB is the cherry on top. I'm sure that he doesn't view Spurs as a bunch of ****s like we do.

 

So really, it is embarrassing all those lambasting the board. Have to wonder whether those doing it are all 16 years old as they are displaying staggering amounts of ignorance and naivety.

The Board / club leaked to their media contacts that they were confident of signing Toby. That starts to set some expectations with fans.

Our Manager said the player wanted to join us. That starts to set some expectations with fans.

Toby is signing with Spurs. They can be for all of the valid reasons you suggested. But the club sort of set themselves up here for a bit of criticism, don't you think?

There is literally very little information out there to even come to the conclusion.

there is loads of info out there. The media have been running with this for the last few days and appear to be on the money

just that we have been told to ignore it.

For the people who are ****ed off at Spurs / Liverpool in this transfer window:

The situation is exactly the same for those clubs as it is for us. Lloris has been linked with United. Sterling has asked not to go on tour with Liverpool for pre-season because he is actively campaigning in the press for a move. That has to hurt.

It's really annoying that we didn't get Toby to sign a longer-term contract, but it's just football. Other great players will play for the Saints and most likely we will do better than most teams this season because we have a great manager. Enjoy it while it lasts!

Our preferred media contact has pretty much said it's done- that's enough for me... What a shame

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/11725205/Spurs-transfer-news-agreement-reached-with-Atletico-Madrid-for-Toby-Alderweireld.html

there is loads of into out there. The media have been running with this for the last few days.

just that we have been told to ignore it.

There's very little information to suggest we have done wrong, that's what I was saying. There's nothing out there that says such a thing. It's impossible to make assumptions as there have been loads of games at play here. It will all come out in the wash, I'm sure - but far too early for anyone to start hitting the club about something they have no idea about.

There's very little information to suggest we have done wrong, that's what I was saying. There's nothing out there that says such a thing. It's impossible to make assumptions as there have been loads of games at play here. It will all come out in the wash, I'm sure - but far too early for anyone to start hitting the club about something they have no idea about.

it is not unreasonable, given that we had first dibs on him, he said he wanted to come back, we had a pre contract agreement and we sat back whislt spurs came in.

through all of that, we have been told to ignore the 'noise' in the media, yet it is all correct.

then we leak info to the media (which we slate other clubs from doing), someone gets sacked at the club (rather convenient timing) and he goes to spurs

now, he may well have wanted to go to spurs when they came in. but we should have had this wrapped up before that.

The Board / club leaked to their media contacts that they were confident of signing Toby. That starts to set some expectations with fans.

 

Our Manager said the player wanted to join us. That starts to set some expectations with fans.

 

Toby is signing with Spurs. They can be for all of the valid reasons you suggested. But the club sort of set themselves up here for a bit of criticism, don't you think?

No, and certainly not for the reasons you gave.

What I don't really get is that we appear to have offered more money than Spurs? If the end game for AM is to achieve more money for the transfer how exactly are we out of the running?!

No, and certainly not for the reasons you gave.

So when Saints leak to the media they are confident of signing a player, and when Saints themselves through the Manager say the player wants to sign, and then said player joins another club for what appears on the face of it to be a fee and wages we can afford, you just automatically assume that's ok and the club is immune from criticism for it?

 

then we leak info to the media (which we slate other clubs from doing).

Ok, I'll try and nail this *not* like-for-like comparison one more time then I'll give it up as a lost cause....

We "slate" other clubs who leak stuff through the media as a matter of routine behaviour. We do it rarely and as a last resort. Certain other clubs do it as a first resort.

Ergo, there's no contradiction here whatsoever.

IMO of course.

For me the main disappointment is the message this signing would have sent out. We had a great chance to do something big but we got gazumped when we were in pole position and primed to agree a deal. Such a shame.

So when Saints leak to the media they are confident of signing a player' date=' and when Saints themselves through the Manager say the player wants to sign, and then said player joins another club for what appears on the face of it to be a fee and wages we can afford, you just automatically assume that's ok and the club is immune from criticism for it?[/quote']

 

Well they're not going to go into negotiations saying that they're not sure whether they can or can't do it, are they? And what you consider a leak might or might not be so.

 

But really, what the player says is irrelevant. It is what the player does that is relevant. Presuming that this goes through with Spurs shows that HE WANTED TO SIGN FOR SPURS RATHER THAN US as that is exactly what he has done. Is that really too hard a concept to understand? I am not immune to criticising the club, but when the decision is made by the player of where he wants to go, and he is going to a far bigger club than us - so to my mind is understandable, and in fact I would find it strange (but would be delighted) had he turned them down for us - then I see there being very little the club can do.

What I don't really get is that we appear to have offered more money than Spurs? If the end game for AM is to achieve more money for the transfer how exactly are we out of the running?!

Because, despite what Ron and Les are saying, Spurs is the players first choice of club to play for.

Board over confident after last six summers?

 

Or maybe you just don't know what happened?

Hardly any of us will "know" what exactly happened so instead we have to read through the lines and make assumptions that may or may not be correct. But this is a forum where we put forward our views and thoughts based on what we think. Sometimes they will be praising the club and sometimes they won't be.

I happen to think the club is well run and we are lucky to have a genuine owner who considers the fans and is in it for all the right reasons. However just occasionally we don't get it right and I do think the club have messed up a tad with this transfer, preferring to think they would be successful in getting TA using the legal route. That appears to have backfired despite it seems us meeting Tottenham's valuation yesterday. By then the horse had bolted. A great shame because I think TA was integral to our improvement last season and he will be sorely missed, but no one gets things 100% and if lessons are learnt so much the better.

Of course we can't be sure, but this event suggests that we were complacent and stood around whilst spurs stole in and took him away. Maybe if we were doing it again we would have gone in harder earlier.

It's a real shame that this hasn't worked out for us, but there's no use in crying over spilt milk. It's done now (apparently), and I'm sure Reed has a suitable replacement lined up already. We just need to get them in ASAP so they can settle in in time for the season.

No, and certainly not for the reasons you gave.

so the club openly said they are confident he will sign and that he wanted to come.... And you can't see any warrant for criticism when he goes elsewhere?

For me the main disappointment is the message this signing would have sent out. We had a great chance to do something big but we got gazumped when we were in pole position and primed to agree a deal. Such a shame.

Exactly, which is why the whole "legally he is ours, so hands off him" rhetoric from Saints was embarrassing. We should have shut up in public and when Toby decided who he wanted, just sucked it up and moved on.

What I don't really get is that we appear to have offered more money than Spurs? If the end game for AM is to achieve more money for the transfer how exactly are we out of the running?!

Because Toby might prefer Spurs to Saints?

Or AM want to cut off their nose to spite their face because we rubbed them up the wrong way somehow?