Between a rock and a hard place

do remind me what position we were in when Cortese left please....

FFS dry your eyes.

SFC is in an intolerable situation, imo.

 

We are better than also-rans and mid-table mediocrity - we were top 3 for most of last season.

 

We are unable or unwilling to make the step up to genuine Top 6 contenders. The ease with which Liverpool and Tottenham pick off our players and staff testifies to that.

 

Every time we threaten to smash the glass ceiling, we get looted.

 

What REALLY is the way forward - to make progress - for SFC ? I dont see it....

A fair question. Can we just forget about questions he asked in the past? This is a good one.

How can we make the club more attractive for poached players to stay at? Some clubs seem to have a name, facilities or pay which encourages players to move there even if they fail or spend all of their time on the bench.

We need to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club. Its a big ask though because the answer is money. I don't want us to overstretch ourselves so we are in danger of the nightmare that ML and KL saved us from.

Can we carry on with debating the reasonable question which the OP asks?

do remind me what position we were in when Cortese left please....

I have no idea, but I'm guessing it was somewhere around 8th, seeing as seemed like we spent practically the entire season in 8th that season.

Not sure what your point is? If it's about us improving since, we have, but each position above where we are is incrementally that much more difficult to achieve due to the scale of expenditure and probability of the teams with the biggest wage bills not messing up over the course of 38 matches. We all saw what we could achieve on a level playing field, and with our first choice team on the pitch, but we can't do that every week, that's one of the challenges.

A fair question. Can we just forget about questions he asked in the past? This is a good one.

 

How can we make the club more attractive for poached players to stay at? Some clubs seem to have a name, facilities or pay which encourages players to move there even if they fail or spend all of their time on the bench.

 

We need to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club. Its a big ask though because the answer is money. I don't want us to overstretch ourselves so we are in danger of the nightmare that ML and KL saved us from.

 

Can we carry on with debating the reasonable question which the OP asks?

Mainly because you've ignored the rubbish he's written and have made up your own question.

Are we in an "intolerable situation"? Of course not, total nonsense.

Do we get "looted"? Nope. Nonsense.

Is there a glass ceiling? Nope.

Either way, the answer to your question is easy. Keep doing precisely what we're doing now. Listen to Les, listen to Ronald, listen to Ralph, listen to whoever you like connected with the club. We know what we're doing, and will keep doing it.

We are not going "to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club". Not going to happen.

Question answered.

Mainly because you've ignored the rubbish he's written and have made up your own question.

 

Are we in an "intolerable situation"? Of course not, total nonsense.

 

Do we get "looted"? Nope. Nonsense.

 

Is there a glass ceiling? Nope.

 

Either way, the answer to your question is easy. Keep doing precisely what we're doing now. Listen to Les, listen to Ronald, listen to Ralph, listen to whoever you like connected with the club. We know what we're doing, and will keep doing it.

 

We are not going "to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club". Not going to happen.

 

Question answered.

Can't argue with the other bits, but I don't think you've done much to address the "glass ceiling" question, when you've spent quite a while previously pointing out how there was no next level and how we can't get there anyway - so is your point that the ceiling isn't glass so we're never getting above where we are, or that there's no ceiling and we can finish in the top 6/4/whatever the criteria for a glass ceiling is?

Can't argue with the other bits, but I don't think you've done much to address the "glass ceiling" question, when you've spent quite a while previously pointing out how there was no next level and how we can't get there anyway - so is your point that the ceiling isn't glass so we're never getting above where we are, or that there's no ceiling and we can finish in the top 6/4/whatever the criteria for a glass ceiling is?

I object to the terminology which is incorrectly used. There is not glass ceiling, or hidden or secret force or level of discrimination that stops us finishing fourth in a football league table.

Slightly arcane point but fundamentally the phrase leads to too many to thinking we are hard-done-by victims when we are in fact hugely blessed as a fanbase right now.

I have no idea, but I'm guessing it was somewhere around 8th, seeing as seemed like we spent practically the entire season in 8th that season.

 

Not sure what your point is? If it's about us improving since, we have, but each position above where we are is incrementally that much more difficult to achieve due to the scale of expenditure and probability of the teams with the biggest wage bills not messing up over the course of 38 matches. We all saw what we could achieve on a level playing field, and with our first choice team on the pitch, but we can't do that every week, that's one of the challenges.

you said,

The reason we didn't sell anyone in the 18 months he lasted as CEO in the Premier League was because we were utter gash for the first 6 months, in the bottom half for the second 6 months, and that he sodded off 6 months late in mid-season knowing that all the players who had become good were all about to jump ship due to failing to reach the Champions League in 2013/14 as a result of having an upper-midtable squad with no depth but a lot of empty promises?

so despite what you say, we were eight, sort of contradictory.

you said,

 

 

The reason we didn't sell anyone in the 18 months he lasted as CEO in the Premier League was because we were utter gash for the first 6 months, in the bottom half for the second 6 months, and that he sodded off 6 months late in mid-season knowing that all the players who had become good were all about to jump ship due to failing to reach the Champions League in 2013/14 as a result of having an upper-midtable squad with no depth but a lot of empty promises?

 

so despite what you say, we were eight, sort of contradictory.

Upper mid table is eighth isn't it?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25752833

Ninth. About as upper mid table as you can get.

I offer a more accurate analysis of where we are and where we can conceivably go than you, who despite everything is still, eighteen months on, grizzling about Cortese leaving and expecting us to pi ss money away to chase the Champions League.

 

I have given up wasting my time trying to educate you so a simple "Waaaaaaaaah" is all you deserve.

 

Waaaaaaaaah.

no you don't offer a 'more accurate analysis', guess everything is up for debate and reasoning, which you and a few others seem to have a problem with.

Im not grizzling about Cortese going, he's history and by his standards, he should be forgotten. But one thing is for sure, in my opinion, there is no doubt whatsoever that he was a lot more ambitious than the current board. That's not to say the current board is wrong, I just think that they will be more than content with PL stability and the odd decent season, which is very well but just don't paint it as ambition. Or maybe in the climate of the super rich clubs, hanging onto their coat tails is ambition?

You shoot down Alpine Saint tediously, I'm not a big fan of his either, mainly because of his views on Hillsborough, he is negative and perhaps just a troll but I think his question today did have a point. Though its a point we've been over many times previously. But then we've discussed the 'greatest team, goal, foul.....' many times as well.

That's all I think, sorry if my opinion and that of others who don't agree with your full timers club ruin your party, but I was under the impression that was what the point of this forum was about. You don't know me, you don't know my history in supporting this club so please don't patronise me when I happen to have a different opinion. I don't know you, but I might do, maybe you sit behind me in The Itchen, maybe I say hello to you every game, you sound like a knob on here but maybe you're not.

You don't need to educate me pal, just don't respond if you feel I have not contributed anything worth responding to.

(or was it just because I was right on FFP)

oh, I was under the impression it was great season when we finished 8th, which is just 2 of 6th, which was amazing...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25752833

 

Ninth. About as upper mid table as you can get.

time, hands, much, on, too, your

no you don't offer a 'more accurate analysis', guess everything is up for debate and reasoning, which you and a few others seem to have a problem with.

Im not grizzling about Cortese going, he's history and by his standards, he should be forgotten. But one thing is for sure, in my opinion, there is no doubt whatsoever that he was a lot more ambitious than the current board. That's not to say the current board is wrong, I just think that they will be more than content with PL stability and the odd decent season, which is very well but just don't paint it as ambition. Or maybe in the climate of the super rich clubs, hanging onto their coat tails is ambition?

 

You shoot down Alpine Saint tediously, I'm not a big fan of his either, mainly because of his views on Hillsborough, he is negative and perhaps just a troll but I think his question today did have a point. Though its a point we've been over many times previously. But then we've discussed the 'greatest team, goal, foul.....' many times as well.

 

That's all I think, sorry if my opinion and that of others who don't agree with your full timers club ruin your party, but I was under the impression that was what the point of this forum was about. You don't know me, you don't know my history in supporting this club so please don't patronise me when I happen to have a different opinion. I don't know you, but I might do, maybe you sit behind me in The Itchen, maybe I say hello to you every game, you sound like a knob on here but maybe you're not.

You don't need to educate me pal, just don't respond if you feel I have not contributed anything worth responding to.

 

(or was it just because I was right on FFP)

We've discussed your perception of "ambition" before, which essentially boils down to "that woman has got loads of money so why doesn't she keep spending and spending it until my football club gets into the Champions League".

So don't make out you have "ambition". It's just toddler foot stamping.

No idea what FFP is or what you were right about. Many, many congratulations though.

Taking out the emotional blither blather and treating the original post as a serious question, here is my answer:

 

The primary long term determinate of a football clubs success is what it pays its players relative to its competition. Chapter Two of "Money and Football" by Stefan Szymanski demonstrates this quite clearly.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Money-Football-Soccernomics-Stefan-Szymanski/dp/1568585268/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436174091&sr=1-1&keywords=money+and+football

 

Obviously this factor can be mitigated somewhat by running the club well (and avoiding running it as poorly as QPR, for example). However, in the long run no one club is always well run. No club always gets its transfer activities right all the time. To improve our league position we need to increase our income so that we can increase what we can afford to pay players. But this has to be an increase relative to the rest of the league.

 

How can that be done? We can increase ticket prices to the point where they maximize revenue. Of course, that strategy would outrage the true fans. Based upon this year's ticket prices, it appears that the club is not trying to greatly increase revenue this way. Of course, cup runs and European games will increase ticket sales and income. Obviously, the club wants to progress in that fashion.

 

We can increase our merchandizing sales. Individual fans can help by buying lots of shirts and what not, but the club can only do this by increasing its appeal around England and around the world. This can happen by the club performing well and getting favorable publicity and by the people running the club making good decisions on how to attract new fans. There is good reason to believe the club is working on this.

 

We can increase our commercial income by getting more and better paying sponsors. The club is clearly working on this.

 

We can increase our TV revenue relative to other premier league clubs. European participation will do this some. Finishing higher up in the league does this as well. Being selected to appear in the nationally televised games also increases revenue. If we qualify for the group phase we will have a significant TV revenue increase this year not just because of the money from Europe but because the additional Sunday games are more likely to end up on TV--if we are playing well. Obviously, the club is doing all it can do in this area.

 

We can make money buying and selling players. We appear to be doing this. In fact, selling a couple of our best players each year may not be a bug, but a feature of our club's financial plans--just as Chelsea relies upon their buy and selling of players to make the profit they need to support the first team. The difference is that we are not building up a stable of good young players who will never play for us just to sell them at a profit. Maybe we should be doing this.

 

Our owner can put more money into the club up to the limits imposed by financial fair play. Although Liebherr has put money into the club in the past, the sustainability talk we here from the club suggests that her goal is not to pump in the 7 to 15 million pounds a year (the exact amount is uncertain for a variety of reasons most of which would be known to the club insiders, but not to me) European Financial Fairplay would allow. Of course, Liebherr might change her mind, but right now it looks like the club is not exercising this option.

 

I posted a relevant blog on this subject back in January.

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/01/financial-fair-play-friend-or-foe.html

 

Based upon the latest numbers (for the 2013-2014 season) to catch Tottenham (the least rich club in the top six) we would have to increase our turnover by 75 million more than Tottenham increases their turnover. Given that they are going to move to a big new stadium in the next few years, this does not seem likely--assuming the loan repayment costs on the stadium do not eat up all the additional profit. Even if that were to happen, the rich owner of Tottenham could cover those costs out of pocket without violating FFP.

 

However, the connection between what player are paid and the results on the field is not a perfect one. There may be years when we get lucky relative to the richer clubs and finish ahead of some of them. If we are close to them, superior club management might make the difference. In a way that is what is disappointing about the past season. Good as it was, we all feel that with just a small number of breaks we could have finished fourth. A chance like that may not come along again for a while.

 

Edit: Why did I stay up to 2:41 am to write this? Good night all.

Good read though pal....cheers

Also, to everyone here, the phrase "glass ceiling" really does not apply to our circumstances. There is no glass ceiling.

I slightly disagree. There is a glass ceiling, but it is not what is blocking us because our owner does not want to kick in hundreds of millions of pounds to buy players. If she wanted to do that, FFP would constitute a glass ceiling that would block her.

A valid question and similar to one I posted yesterday that was equally well received. Much depends on WHO makes the comment rather than it,s content.

The most disappointing thing with the "situation" with Saints ( and I admit I am wrong in thinking otherwise ) is that with the higher the team finishes, the less likely the player poaching. However this appears to get worse for us , not better, would understand it more if we were a lower placed side but this appears not to be the case.

Until we retain our better players to a better degree , we will never progress from where we are now. That may be fine, but everyone including the club needs to accept this.

This is a faulty, but understandable, perception. When we got promoted from the Championship, we had players who would have looked good to midtable clubs, but those clubs could not offer significant salary increases so there was no interest by our players in leaving. The same was true after our first year in the premier league. Now our players look good to clubs playing in the Champions league who can out pay us. However, world-wide there are really only 20 to 30 clubs who can out pay us. In other words, because of our rich owner, we avoided several years of poaching so it looks like it is worse now. But two years ago Everton could have taken one of our players. That seems unlikely now. Assuming we avoid relegation, the situation will improve with the new TV contract. At point there might only be 10 to 15 clubs world wide that can take our players using their financial power. Unfortunately, six of those clubs are in the Premier League.

That's the point. I'm a great admirer of RK - but even the best will struggle to repeat that trick year on year, especially when no matter how well you think you've chosen replacements you can't quite be sure they'll adapt quickly enough. Or whether they'll match up to what we've lost. And I doubt it's much incentive for RK himself to stay, having the rebuild every 12 months.

 

So my perfectly rational choice is to start panicking.

I think that is an over reaction. If we have a bad year, fewer of our players will look good enough to poach and we will be better able to recover the next year. So long as we avoid having a bad enough year to get relegated we should be fine.

Alpine is my hero. He chucks in a couple of thin posts to get the ball rolling and boom! I can see him sat there with his popcorn.

 

If he believes half of what he writes himself then I am a Andy Murray fan.

Who is Andy Murray?

do remind me what position we were in when Cortese left please....

We were in 9th place. Since the official premier league table shows us as currently being in 13th place I guess we have dropped off a little. On the other hand, he did leave us with some unnecessary problems in the cash flow area. Also, Osvaldo.

A fair question. Can we just forget about questions he asked in the past? This is a good one.

 

How can we make the club more attractive for poached players to stay at? Some clubs seem to have a name, facilities or pay which encourages players to move there even if they fail or spend all of their time on the bench.

 

We need to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club. Its a big ask though because the answer is money. I don't want us to overstretch ourselves so we are in danger of the nightmare that ML and KL saved us from.

 

Can we carry on with debating the reasonable question which the OP asks?

We could but, as you pointed out, the issue is money. I have already addressed this in some detail in an earlier post so I am not sure what more there is to say. And, yes I see the irony in posting this long response.

I object to the terminology which is incorrectly used. There is not glass ceiling, or hidden or secret force or level of discrimination that stops us finishing fourth in a football league table.

 

Slightly arcane point but fundamentally the phrase leads to too many to thinking we are hard-done-by victims when we are in fact hugely blessed as a fanbase right now.

I guess you could say there is no glass ceiling because it is not hidden and we all know that it is there, but FFP does impose a ceiling on what we can do in the short and medium term. In the long run, we are all dead.

Good read though pal....cheers

Thank you.

Us to continue wisely in the transfer market as we have for the last 6 years of Liebherr ownership. Which has seen us rise from 68th to 7th in England and close the gap significantly to Spurs and Liverpool.

 

So our defeats have risen 15% under Koeman, at this rate we will be relegated in 5.66 seasons.

Mainly because you've ignored the rubbish he's written and have made up your own question.

 

Are we in an "intolerable situation"? Of course not, total nonsense.

 

Do we get "looted"? Nope. Nonsense.

 

Is there a glass ceiling? Nope.

 

Either way, the answer to your question is easy. Keep doing precisely what we're doing now. Listen to Les, listen to Ronald, listen to Ralph, listen to whoever you like connected with the club. We know what we're doing, and will keep doing it.

 

We are not going "to put ourselves in a similar position to become a big club". Not going to happen.

 

Question answered.

I object to the terminology which is incorrectly used. There is not glass ceiling, or hidden or secret force or level of discrimination that stops us finishing fourth in a football league table.

 

Slightly arcane point but fundamentally the phrase leads to too many to thinking we are hard-done-by victims when we are in fact hugely blessed as a fanbase right now.

We've discussed your perception of "ambition" before, which essentially boils down to "that woman has got loads of money so why doesn't she keep spending and spending it until my football club gets into the Champions League".

 

So don't make out you have "ambition". It's just toddler foot stamping.

 

No idea what FFP is or what you were right about. Many, many congratulations though.

OMG I actually agree with you

signed your favorite f****ng moron

I don't know why anyone is bothering to engage with him. He's no where to be seen when things are going well, but as soon as a bit of doom is on the horizon up he pops.

 

There are seemingly quite a few posters who linger in the hope of bad news, to then try and ram their views down our faces. I'll tell you what is intolerable - this forum during pre-season.

Interesting you mention ramming opinions down peoples throats as you are often just as guilty . If you don't like the subject then don't post .

The question itself is legitimate but is unfortunately written from an emotional point of view .

Can Saints ever realistically push on or is this the best we can ever hope for . Thats the question Alpine is asking .

My opinion is that we have peaked and will struggle to maintain this unless we receive massive investment into the stadium and our commercial income . We can't compete with the top teams in terms of wages and I doubt we even want to . Our strategy of buying cheap or developing academy players is never one that will push us into the top 4 .

We may flirt with it but last season was a fluke .

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

Half of the usual posters jump at the chance to belittle other opinions . Its ruining this forum .

Its sad

More pearls of wisdom from Alpine 'my son could go through Jose Fonte' Saint.

SFC is in an intolerable situation, imo.

 

We are better than also-rans and mid-table mediocrity - we were top 3 for most of last season.

 

We are unable or unwilling to make the step up to genuine Top 6 contenders. The ease with which Liverpool and Tottenham pick off our players and staff testifies to that.

 

Every time we threaten to smash the glass ceiling, we get looted.

 

What REALLY is the way forward - to make progress - for SFC ? I dont see it....

OK, you get my vote for prize tit fan of the year! Well done as there were a fair few contenders

Its the first test on Wednesday....have we lost the Ashes already??

If Alpine had said that I'd be far more inclined to agree, we are one of the best run clubs in the world FFS Alpine and are clearly punching above our weight, I don't believe we're going to stand still or go down either, we'll just keep trying to get amoungst the heavy weights year on year. What a time to be a saints fan we've never had it so good in my lifetime!

Are you just an attention seeker? That seems to me to be the most sane explanation

Interesting you mention ramming opinions down peoples throats as you are often just as guilty . If you don't like the subject then don't post .

 

The question itself is legitimate but is unfortunately written from an emotional point of view .

 

Can Saints ever realistically push on or is this the best we can ever hope for . Thats the question Alpine is asking .

 

My opinion is that we have peaked and will struggle to maintain this unless we receive massive investment into the stadium and our commercial income . We can't compete with the top teams in terms of wages and I doubt we even want to . Our strategy of buying cheap or developing academy players is never one that will push us into the top 4 .

 

We may flirt with it but last season was a fluke .

You've generously rephrased the question, and then answered it with the same response 99% of normal people on here would give and is essentially what Les Reed has been saying for years - it is exactly what Cortese used to say as well. Cortese always said we would never compete financially with the bigger clubs.

That's partly why Alpine gets short shrift, because this has been done to death and everyone should really understand our strategy by now. Calling our best finish for 25 years "an intolerable situation" and other such emotional garbage does help him.

There's most people that can understand our strategy and then there's a handful of dins forever refusing to accept that we haven't got the "ambition" to p iss millions and millions of pounds away on players and wages like they do when they play their computer games.

We're the best run club in the land and still they grizzle.

I assume this is some sort of attempt at alternative comedy - Arsenal have been selling to the Manchester clubs for years (well not always selling but sometimes losing on free transfers!); Chelsea have just sold Cech to Arsenal; Liverpool sold Torres to Chelsea; etc etc.).

 

I am afraid it was you that missed the point of Alpine's post. Sadly from his point of view we have done amazingly well for several seasons now but his agenda is to carp, carp, carp and his original post was about criticising the club for somehow not making us Manchester City.

 

He knows this. I am afraid he has done you on this one.

I never said it didn't happen at all, just that it's more isolated.

and as for your examples, Cech is second choice for Chelsea and he had to get special permission from Abramovich to sign for Arsenal, Torres was having fitness problems when Chelsea decided to smash the british transfer record, so like I said, it doesnt happen THAT often.

When was the last time a top four club sold four of it's best players at the end of a season, let alone to a direct competitor!

I object to the terminology which is incorrectly used. There is not glass ceiling, or hidden or secret force or level of discrimination that stops us finishing fourth in a football league table.

 

Slightly arcane point but fundamentally the phrase leads to too many to thinking we are hard-done-by victims when we are in fact hugely blessed as a fanbase right now.

CB, I get your point on terminology but ffp does limit our ability (if the money were available) to compete with the big boys. It's a glass ceiling, or barrier, or whatever.

Spurs ffp cap is more than treble ours. Liverpool's is much higher too. That limits our ability to compete with them but we do.

Unfortunately we're stuck with these restrictions. Our club have a choice. Either we let players contracts run down then give them away and feed off scraps. Or we sell them once it's clear that they don't want to stay, get decent fees and buy quality replacements that could make the team stronger.

We've chosen the latter route and we've implemented it brilliantly. I'm not sure why anyone is questioning our approach.

Over the past few years we have been signing players in the 8-15m pound range i think this has worked well for us and has helped us improve season upon season, although its not big money compared to what the top 6 spend i think it has helped build a squad that the stokes and crystal palaces of the world cant compete with.

This summers transfers so far do seem to lack ambition though

Stekelenberg filler until forster returns

Cedric portuguese international full back ,replacement for clyne, possible bargain

Juanmi , whilst again looking to have some potential it looks tough for him to break into a front 3 made up of jay-rod pelle mane, i believe tadic will probably be infront of him too ,squad player?

Cuco martina, more filler to provide cover across the whole back line ,not rated highly by dutch followers.

The above bunch doesnt really look the type of signings that will help us kick on from last year obviously things can still change if we use the schneiderlin money to make some exciting signings like clasie,or we somehow manage to pull off the toby deal, but so far i think its been quite a underwhelming transfer window and our signings look more the type that a lower premiership team would be making then a top ten club .

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

The fact of the matter is money. Always has been and always will be. ATM we are competing with a club that has nearly double our wage bill and a club nearly treble our wage bill. These teams can quite easily tap our players up by simply letting them know that they can double their wages and THAT is where we fall short.

The fact is we are doing extremely well with the resources we have but we will never compete financially unless we grow our global brand to increase our revenue unless of course some bored Arab prince buys us out which tbh i'd pass on. I'm happy with how we are thanks.

CB, I get your point on terminology but ffp does limit our ability (if the money were available) to compete with the big boys. It's a glass ceiling, or barrier, or whatever.

 

Spurs ffp cap is more than treble ours. Liverpool's is much higher too. That limits our ability to compete with them but we do.

 

Unfortunately we're stuck with these restrictions. Our club have a choice. Either we let players contracts run down then give them away and feed off scraps. Or we sell them once it's clear that they don't want to stay, get decent fees and buy quality replacements that could make the team stronger.

 

We've chosen the latter route and we've implemented it brilliantly. I'm not sure why anyone is questioning our approach.

Yes, but not quite - the FFP thresholds are defined by the turnover of the clubs, not by any hidden force/discrimination.

As well as the misinterpretation of glass ceiling I also don't accept that financial fair play is somehow unfair to us. I don't want us to be spending stupid money we don't have, and if there is a mechanism to stop us and other clubs doing it, then good. Tottenham has a bigger threshold because they are financially bigger than we are in ways that can be quantified, perfectly fairly.

Everything - our strategy, and football legislation- points to us building the club sustainably, which thankfully is what we're doing.

The way to improve is to carry on the way we are and show that we are a financially stable club, with the best youth scheme in England, and a committed financial backing from Ms Liebherr. If we can do that and stay in the top eight or nine , challenging for an Europa cup place, then we will persuade sponsors, players and agents that we are here to stay. We need to consolidate our fan base, probably expand the stadium and improve our commercial side. This will take a few years and if so we should be the equal of Liverpool and Tottenham who are probably wondering just how they can break into the top four on a sustained basis.

At the moment we are in the same position as clubs like Everton and Aston Villa.

When I first started supporting Saints we were in the third division south and Portsmouth were considered the big club and almost everyone from Winchester went there rather Soton. I think that as impoverished schoolboys it was much cheaper for us to watch Saints in those days.

I'm very content where we are, in the second tier of the EPL and long may it stay that way.

Realistically I see no way we can break into the top four as long as it stays as it is.

Also remember that Arsenal or Chelsea could probably take any Spurs player they wanted, and Man U could certainly take any Liverpool player they wanted and they are rivals amongst supporters ( although it's now a money game for the owners.)

Apart from the early eighties when football wasn't ruled by money, and Saints could come second and Man U be relegated its our best ever period.

Despite the bickering, some interesting points.

Saints are having to have medium to long term goals to regularly challenge for the top four/six places because of the financial position of relative clubs. Unfortunately, that time frame means our first choice players are at risk to being transfer targets for those clubs with bigger spending power than us; particularly when it comes to wages. While those clubs do lose players to their rivals, it is rarely regular first team players; unless the contract situation determines a sale or a ridiculous bid comes in. Mata, remember, cost something like £38m for Man Utd to buy him from Chelsea and he wasn't Jose's preferred option, despite being their player of the year.

Secondly, the money that comes from the television deals mean that we are in a situation where we can scout Europe and other smaller clubs in the pyramid and sign players from them instead, taking their first team choices. What we don't have however, is the ability to say no and keep our players if the big clubs want them. If £25m was offered for Morgan last year, rather than the rumoured £10m from Spurs, would he too of gone? Of course, now that we are in a stable financial position, we won't be selling without negotiating a lot harder than when we were selling the likes of Bale, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain.

In summary, I think it is always going to be difficult to consistently threaten the Champions League places and we will start to be challenged by WHU when they have their new ground; Everton, who can't possibly be as bad again and Swansea who rival us as the best run club in the country IMO. All in all though, it's not a bad position to be in and I doubt anyone could have predicted where we find ourselves now compared to the turmoil of our days in administration! If anyone would have said back then that we would be debating over how to consistently challenge the best teams in the land the men in white suits would have come to take you away!

Yes, but not quite - the FFP thresholds are defined by the turnover of the clubs, not by any hidden force/discrimination.

 

Everything - our strategy, and football legislation- points to us building the club sustainably, which thankfully is what we're doing.

Agreed. For me, I take great pleasure that we can be so competitive on the field despite our budget and ffp restrictions. We're in good shape.

Over the past few years we have been signing players in the 8-15m pound range i think this has worked well for us and has helped us improve season upon season, although its not big money compared to what the top 6 spend i think it has helped build a squad that the stokes and crystal palaces of the world cant compete with.

 

This summers transfers so far do seem to lack ambition though

Stekelenberg filler until forster returns

Cedric portuguese international full back ,replacement for clyne, possible bargain

Juanmi , whilst again looking to have some potential it looks tough for him to break into a front 3 made up of jay-rod pelle mane, i believe tadic will probably be infront of him too ,squad player?

Cuco martina, more filler to provide cover across the whole back line ,not rated highly by dutch followers.

 

The above bunch doesnt really look the type of signings that will help us kick on from last year obviously things can still change if we use the schneiderlin money to make some exciting signings like clasie,or we somehow manage to pull off the toby deal, but so far i think its been quite a underwhelming transfer window and our signings look more the type that a lower premiership team would be making then a top ten club .

I think you underestimate Juanmi, and overestimate the likelihood of us picking the same front 4 week in, week out across 4 competitions as well - plus a load of assumptions about Rodriguez's fitness that I won't start to think about until I've actually seen him kick a ball, live, which hopefully will be Saturday in Salzburg.

Martina is indeed filler due to Bertrand's seemingly short notice knee surgery - the 2 year deal is a dead giveaway, and Stekelenburg is precisely what we needed in that position. Cedric basically looks like the kind of signing we make, and whilst we can't assume that any of them are going to automatically be successful, you can't really argue against us making similar sorts of signings to those which have worked before.

Also, the more difficult signings always take longer, as in many cases the seller will be getting someone in before they'll let the player we want leave.

Yes, but not quite - the FFP thresholds are defined by the turnover of the clubs, not by any hidden force/discrimination.

 

As well as the misinterpretation of glass ceiling I also don't accept that financial fair play is somehow unfair to us. I don't want us to be spending stupid money we don't have, and if there is a mechanism to stop us and other clubs doing it, then good. Tottenham has a bigger threshold because they are financially bigger than we are in ways that can be quantified, perfectly fairly.

 

Everything - our strategy, and football legislation- points to us building the club sustainably, which thankfully is what we're doing.

Mmm, it's "sort of" fair within the self-perpetuating "fairness" of system which allows one team to spend hundreds of millions more than another in the same division. Fair in the sense that even if we did have the same amount of money as Man City's owners we wouldn't be able to spend it on players until we'd spent it on a load of revenue-generating stuff first. It's vaguely fair in relation to club incomes, but the entirely arbitrary start date and perpetual additional prize money doesn't help its case as equitable.

A wage cap which was based on the average wage of a Prem footballer multipled by, say, 25 over-age players, would be inherently fair as it would give every club the chance to spend the same amount. They can use the Champions League money to buy ivory backscratchers or something.

Even so, I'm completely in favour of our sustainable approach, I just wish it was applicable to everyone.

Mmm, it's "sort of" fair within the self-perpetuating "fairness" of system which allows one team to spend hundreds of millions more than another in the same division. Fair in the sense that even if we did have the same amount of money as Man City's owners we wouldn't be able to spend it on players until we'd spent it on a load of revenue-generating stuff first. It's vaguely fair in relation to club incomes, but the entirely arbitrary start date and perpetual additional prize money doesn't help its case as equitable.

 

A wage cap which was based on the average wage of a Prem footballer multipled by, say, 25 over-age players, would be inherently fair as it would give every club the chance to spend the same amount. They can use the Champions League money to buy ivory backscratchers or something.

 

Even so, I'm completely in favour of our sustainable approach, I just wish it was applicable to everyone.

Well, maybe.

But the general theme about FFP and unfairness and how awful it is that those other clubs have more money than us only ever flows in one direction. Us looking upwards at the top 4.

Maybe our incredible good fortune of being owned by a billionaire and raking in Premier League mega-dollars is a trifle unfair to, I don't know, Barnsley or Yeovil (or Newport).

The system is a crock of sh it, I agree, but let's remember we are beneficiaries of it, not victims. We're effing well loaded.

Well, maybe.

 

But the general theme about FFP and unfairness and how awful it is that those other clubs have more money than us only ever flows in one direction. Us looking upwards at the top 4.

 

Maybe our incredible good fortune of being owned by a billionaire and raking in Premier League mega-dollars is a trifle unfair to, I don't know, Barnsley or Yeovil (or Newport).

 

The system is a crock of sh it, I agree, but let's remember we are beneficiaries of it, not victims. We're effing well loaded.

We're doing alright considering.

Newport had their own multi-millionaire Chairman until a few weeks ago, you know...

 

Who is Andy Murray?.

He's a Paraguay fan with a dynamic personality who lent his name to a minor elevation in the ground somewhere on the outskirts of London