Budget

I hope you soppy lefties are putting your money where your mouths are and voting for Comrade Corbyn in the upcoming leadership battle . Come on Brothers how you gonna get your socialist utopia with Mrs Balls or Andy Burnham leading the peoples party?

 

The problem with the lefties on here and most modern lefties is they have a massive credibility gap when it comes to the EU. "Save OUR nhs from privatisation " whilst the EU in the form of TTIP is actually going to open it up more than any nasty Tory ever could. Renationalise the railways , well you better hurry up because the Fourth Railway Package will impose privatisation on domestic railway services in member states , and lefties will never veto the sacred EU. The EU suits "The Man" whether it cuts his payroll or limits his tax burden , it is basically a corporate cartel . That's why people like Bob Crow & Tony Benn were against it . Some are starting to realise , it's even starting to dawn on Little Owen Jones . So the first step on your way to your socialist dream is to vote NO in the EU referendum .

I hope you soppy lefties are putting your money where your mouths are and voting for Comrade Corbyn in the upcoming leadership battle . Come on Brothers how you gonna get your socialist utopia with Mrs Balls or Andy Burnham leading the peoples party?

 

The problem with the lefties on here and most modern lefties is they have a massive credibility gap when it comes to the EU. "Save OUR nhs from privatisation " whilst the EU in the form of TTIP is actually going to open it up more than any nasty Tory ever could. Renationalise the railways , well you better hurry up because the Fourth Railway Package will impose privatisation on domestic railway services in member states , and lefties will never veto the sacred EU. The EU suits "The Man" whether it cuts his payroll or limits his tax burden , it is basically a corporate cartel . That's why people like Bob Crow & Tony Benn were against it . Some are starting to realise , it's even starting to dawn on Little Owen Jones . So the first step on your way to your socialist dream is to vote NO in the EU referendum .

You forgot to use your EUSSR little gag.

You are missing my point.

 

I'm not advocating selfishness, I'm saying that when push comes to shove that's how people behave. Beyond logic, beyond morals that simply 'is.' It's similar to the 'flight or fight' response, when it comes to it, people will react in a certain way.

 

I'm not saying it's right, i'm not saying it's best. It just is. And to work as though that isn't the case because it is undesirable is the worst thing of all. The focus should be on developing a system that circumvents selfishness and rewards effort. (Not that i'm saying that's what we have now, but better to work with what is available then impose an over reaching yet sadly impractical moral view upon people who are in an already pressured environment.)

Can you explain why, in practice that means we need conservatism?

 

In some ways I agree - I want to make money and lead a comfortable life for myself. But that's exactly why I want a strong government to step in and tax me a good amount, because by choice I probably wouldn't give enough to help the people who really need it.

 

Same with inheritance tax, I get that it is a human instinct to want to pass wealth on to your children, but that's exactly why the government should step in and tax it, because the greater good is for children to have to earn their money rather than have it on a plate.

 

Free market capitalism allows our selfishness to run too freely

Edited 17 July, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

Can you explain why, in practice that means we need conservatism?

 

In some ways I agree - I want to make money and lead a comfortable life for myself. But that's exactly why I want a strong government to step in and tax me a good amount, because by choice I probably wouldn't give enough to help the people who really need it.

 

Same with inheritance tax, I get that it is a human instinct to want to pass wealth on to your children, but that's exactly why the government should step in and tax it, because the greater good is for children to have to earn their money rather than have it on a plate.

 

Free market capitalism allows our selfishness to run too freely

 

Because it stops the negative parts of the human condition from effecting the collective whole as much as socialism.

 

Agree with the point on free market capitalism too, but capitalism and conservatism are not the same.

Because it stops the negative parts of the human condition from effecting the collective whole as much as socialism.

Can you give examples? I genuinely don't know what aspects of socialism go against the apparently selfish human condition. As I say, I feel like strong government helps to negate human selfishness

Can you give examples? I genuinely don't know what aspects of socialism go against the apparently selfish human condition. As I say, I feel like strong government helps to negate human selfishness

 

The welfare state is the prime and most relevant example. Something implemented in good faith that is being abused to the detriment of those it was put into place for.

 

It can be played as a way of life, draining the nation's resources and souring perception of it as a concept.

Edited 17 July, 2015 by Colinjb

The welfare state is the prime and most relevant example. Something implemented in good faith that is being abused to the detriment of those it was put into place for.

 

It can be played as a way of life, draining the nation's resources and souring perception of it as a concept.

 

This is getting confusing because earlier in this thread we established that socialism is social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, nothing to do with the welfare state, but anyway...

 

So you're saying we should no longer have a welfare state because some people abuse it? It's hello mass poverty if so

The welfare state is the prime and most relevant example. Something implemented in good faith that is being abused to the detriment of those it was put into place for.

 

It can be played as a way of life, draining the nation's resources and souring perception of it as a concept.

 

Whatever system you have in place some people will abuse it, wether it is big multinationals avoiding tax or dole scroungers avoiding work - it's not really that relevant.

This is getting confusing because earlier in this thread we established that socialism is social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, nothing to do with the welfare state, but anyway...

 

So you're saying we should no longer have a welfare state because some people abuse it? It's hello mass poverty if so

That's the old clause 4 which use to a principal of the old labour party ,some I agree like energy transport and infrastructure a bit like what China is doing now but apart from that the social ma.rket works best in my view

That's the old clause 4 which use to a principal of the old labour party ,some I agree like energy transport and infrastructure a bit like what China is doing now but apart from that the social ma.rket works best in my view

Exactly, it's not about being dogmatic "private is better", or "public is better", but what's right for the particular industry.

So you're saying we should no longer have a welfare state because some people abuse it? It's hello mass poverty if so

 

That's not what i'm saying at all! haha. I am in favour of a welfare state for those that need it.

Whatever system you have in place some people will abuse it, wether it is big multinationals avoiding tax or dole scroungers avoiding work - it's not really that relevant.

 

On the contrary, it's entirely relevant. It just serves to underline my point that people are fundamentally selfish.

On the contrary, it's entirely relevant. It just serves to underline my point that people are fundamentally selfish.

 

Exactly, which is why you need a government to help redistribute wealth and help those in need.

Exactly, which is why you need a government to help redistribute wealth and help those in need.

 

Or, to implement policies which encourage individual endeavour for the benefit of the people and reduce dependancy on the state. Harness the selfishness of man rather then simply garnish it.

Edited 17 July, 2015 by Colinjb

Or, to implement policies which encourage individual endeavour for the benefit of the people and reduce dependancy on the state. Harness the selfishness of man rather then simply garnish it.

 

I agree. But I don't think paying a little bit more tax would have any effect on individual endeavour. If you are that greedy you will want to earn as much as possible regardless of what percentage is taken out.

 

I was always taught it is good to share, I pity those who worry about how much tax they pay.

No, I just think after the next financial crash there will probably be a return to a more socialist style government. The current system is not sustainable.

 

I can't say I'm surprised to see Corbyn doing so well in the Labour leadership race.

 

He'd actually offer a real alternative to the current government.

I kinda agree, sod em, let us stay in the wilderness for a decade, at least we'll know who we are and probably regain a fair bit of Scottish support too:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/labour-realists-jeremy-corbyn-wilderness

I agree. But I don't think paying a little bit more tax would have any effect on individual endeavour. If you are that greedy you will want to earn as much as possible regardless of what percentage is taken out.

 

I was always taught it is good to share, I pity those who worry about how much tax they pay.

 

So you wouldn't use an ISA for savings then?

I agree. But I don't think paying a little bit more tax would have any effect on individual endeavour. If you are that greedy you will want to earn as much as possible regardless of what percentage is taken out.

 

I was always taught it is good to share, I pity those who worry about how much tax they pay.

 

Sharing is all very well just as long as everybody is sharing. When some are just giving and others just taking then it becomes very unfair.

Sharing is all very well just as long as everybody is sharing. When some are just giving and others just taking then it becomes very unfair.

 

You mean like us, the taxpayers, giving and the bankers taking? Grossly unfair!

So you wouldn't use an ISA for savings then?

 

Never bothered no.

You mean like us, the taxpayers, giving and the bankers taking? Grossly unfair!

 

Bankers pay tax too, probably far more than you and certainly more than me.

Bankers pay tax too, probably far more than you and certainly more than me.

 

Err no - you obviously haven't heard of the Mayfair Tax Loophole whereby financiers actually pay less tax than their cleaners!

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/private-equity-bosses-using-700m-tax-loophole--and-donating-to-the-tories-10054911.html

Sharing is all very well just as long as everybody is sharing. When some are just giving and others just taking then it becomes very unfair.

 

I agree, the government should do everything possible to crack down on benefit cheats and tax avoiders but that is a separate issue.

 

I still don't get how paying a bit more tax stops people wanting to better themselves. You still earn more the better you do wether the tax rate is 20, 30 or 40 percent. If you are that motivated by money you will want work more regardless of what percentage is taken out at the end of the month.

I agree, the government should do everything possible to crack down on benefit cheats and tax avoiders but that is a separate issue.

 

I still don't get how paying a bit more tax stops people wanting to better themselves. You still earn more the better you do wether the tax rate is 20, 30 or 40 percent. If you are that motivated by money you will want work more regardless of what percentage is taken out at the end of the month.

 

There is a point at which it is not worth working that little bit extra or investing in some new idea, especially when all the risks go one way. Once people have enough money then working progressively harder for diminishing returns becomes less attractive. The top rate in this country is effectively close to 50% which I think is too high.

There is a point at which it is not worth working that little bit extra or investing in some new idea, especially when all the risks go one way. Once people have enough money then working progressively harder for diminishing returns becomes less attractive. The top rate in this country is effectively close to 50% which I think is too high.

 

A bit less attractive sure but I doubt anyone on that sort of salary goes to work thinking "I'm not going to try hard today because I have to pay some tax". Is that seriously how you think?

 

Every job I do I do the best possible because I know it will make me and my company better off - it's as simple as that.

A bit less attractive sure but I doubt anyone on that sort of salary goes to work thinking "I'm not going to try hard today because I have to pay some tax". Is that seriously how you think?

 

Every job I do I do the best possible because I know it will make me and my company better off - it's as simple as that.

 

You may be thinking of salaried staff, we also have to consider all those that work in small businesses with incomes with significant variations from one year to the next.

You may be thinking of salaried staff, we also have to consider all those that work in small businesses with incomes with significant variations from one year to the next.

 

I have a salaried job and my own business, I know exactly what paying a tax return is like.

 

The principle is the same, the better work I do the better off I am - the rate of tax is irrelevant.

Err no - you obviously haven't heard of the Mayfair Tax Loophole whereby financiers actually pay less tax than their cleaners!

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/private-equity-bosses-using-700m-tax-loophole--and-donating-to-the-tories-10054911.html

can,t beleve that anyone thinks bankers pay much tax seeing they run the financial system for there benefit,part of the reason why we had a world wide recession and bailed them out in the first place .

There is a point at which it is not worth working that little bit extra or investing in some new idea, especially when all the risks go one way. Once people have enough money then working progressively harder for diminishing returns becomes less attractive. The top rate in this country is effectively close to 50% which I think is too high.

germany has a higher top rate but that does not stop them performing and having a good life to me its the people who run small business we need to encourage and and reduce there tax burdens and encourage in the early year with tax right offs for tooling etc and help them grow. don.t think our banks encourage risk taking and they also pulled the plug on a lot of good businesses has was highlighted by the news channels a few years back.

I have a salaried job and my own business, I know exactly what paying a tax return is like.

 

The principle is the same, the better work I do the better off I am - the rate of tax is irrelevant.

 

It is relevant because it is non-linear. One year you could be paying 20% and the next around 50%. You also assume that income is proportional to how hard you work.

 

The key point is up that we need to reward hard work and enterprise, risk-taking by investment in new products and markets and in new methods of manufacture, not punishing this by ever-higher tax rates.

Those 'orrible SNP'ers eh?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-mps-at-westminster-are-giving-their-7000-pay-rise-to-charity-10397476.html

A huge amount of tax is collected in this country, I can't see why anyone would want significant changes and increases to what is currently in place (apart from a few tweaks to the system).

A huge amount of tax is collected in this country, I can't see why anyone would want significant changes and increases to what is currently in place (apart from a few tweaks to the system).

 

Amazon? Apple?

You mean like us, the taxpayers, giving and the bankers taking? Grossly unfair!

Not sure I understand that.

 

Government invested in the banks. It will get that money back.

 

"Bankers" bonuses are paid out of bank earnings coming mainly from commercial lending and investment operations. I doubt retail banking is a major part of any bank operation.

 

Are benefit payments just loans? Do they get paid back?

 

Did you forget that one of the first things that RBS did after we became the majority shareholder was shut down the perfectly legal tax avoidance department.

Amazon? Apple?

 

Yep, that's enforcing the payment of current tax rates, which as an argument makes sense.

 

But is anyone suggesting that any of the existing tax rates that are levied across the board should be significantly increased?

Perhaps all the lefties banging on about paying more tax can let us know how France is doing since Hollande did exactly what they're calling for.

 

Before banging on about the unfairness of multi nationals avoiding tax , perhaps they should also consider why these companies are based in Luxembourg ect , part of the wonderful EUSSR they love so much.

I can't say I'm surprised to see Corbyn doing so well in the Labour leadership race.

 

He'd actually offer a real alternative to the current government.

 

He also stated clearly when he entered for the leadership that he didn't wish to become leader, he just felt it was important that there be more choice. How true that was I have no idea.

He also stated clearly when he entered for the leadership that he didn't wish to become leader, he just felt it was important that there be more choice. How true that was I have no idea.

 

They always say that.

 

'I have never sought to lead but if my colleagues prevail upon me then it would only be right to consider the wider good of the party' or words to that effect.

Get back from a nice, relaxing holiday to hear you're being screwed by the new Dividend tax rules. Cheers Osborne.

Get back from a nice, relaxing holiday to hear you're being screwed by the new Dividend tax rules. Cheers Osborne.

 

Bit less champers for you then. *tinyviolinsounds*

Get back from a nice, relaxing holiday to hear you're being screwed by the new Dividend tax rules. Cheers Osborne.

 

Yes, a bit of a bugger that one. Ignore those that don't understand these things, it means more money taken from small businesses and fewer jobs.

The thing I don't understand is how work is going to pay now that tax credits have been removed? And the "living wage" not really being a living wage at all. I mean, the government COULD bring in a very strong and robust framework for this sort of thing with a powerful governing body but they won't do that will they?

 

Also, since when did Georgie-boy mention during the elections that he wanted to save ANOTHER what? 40 billion from councils and pretty much everything else?

 

Have you seen Tony Blair's video on how Corbyn's voters need to "find a heart"?....I don't think he's quite getting it; it's the point that we actually have one already. Personally I think all the Labour MPs who abstained should read the party's founding ideals.

those that don't understand these things

 

Does that include George Osborne?

Edited 22 July, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

And whilst we weren't looking.....cheers guys!

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/richard-grimes/government-moves-to-consider-nhs-user-charges

Does that include George Osborne?

 

You sometimes wonder. This change to dividend taxes was slipped in quietly under the carpet so I suspect somebody had warned him.

I actually agree with the new dividend tax. Most of my mates are small business owners and the amount of ways they get out of paying tax is unbelievable.

Get back from a nice, relaxing holiday to hear you're being screwed by the new Dividend tax rules. Cheers Osborne.

 

Its still cheaper than paying tax and NI as a salary, which is what most Ltd Co contractors should be doing!!!

I actually agree with the new dividend tax. Most of my mates are small business owners and the amount of ways they get out of paying tax is unbelievable.

 

Agreed. Dividends were never intended to be subsitutes for salaries/payments for work performed and there are lots of wholly unimpressive contractors throughout the land taking home far more than their talent commands through use of "service company" tax avoidance structures.

Yes, a bit of a bugger that one. Ignore those that don't understand these things, it means more money taken from small businesses and fewer jobs.

 

Yeah, JB does tend to struggle with the simplest issues.