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It was the middle classes that turned to Labour in this election, and the working class that turned to the Conservatives (after UKIPs collapse I guess).

 

What a strange country we live in...

 

It wasn't quite so clear-cut as that. Yes, Corbyn attracted a huge mostly public sector middle class to his programme, but he also gained working class votes too. However, his biggest gains weren't across the class divide so much as across the age ranges. Essentially, the young voted for him (witness the crowd size at the decidedly neo-liberal capitalist free-for-all Glastonbury), where in previous elections many may not have voted at all.

 

Amidst all the crowing from McDonnell, et al, though, it's easy to forget that the Tories actually increased their share of the vote too, and defeated Labour by 60 seats. I really don't understand the 'stand aside May' argument. Claiming the result was an affirmation of Labour's right to govern is a bit like losing a game 7-2 but boasting that you'd scored two incredibly good goals.

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It wasn't quite so clear-cut as that. Yes, Corbyn attracted a huge mostly public sector middle class to his programme, but he also gained working class votes too. However, his biggest gains weren't across the class divide so much as across the age ranges. Essentially, the young voted for him (witness the crowd size at the decidedly neo-liberal capitalist free-for-all Glastonbury), where in previous elections many may not have voted at all.

 

Amidst all the crowing from McDonnell, et al, though, it's easy to forget that the Tories actually increased their share of the vote too, and defeated Labour by 60 seats. I really don't understand the 'stand aside May' argument. Claiming the result was an affirmation of Labour's right to govern is a bit like losing a game 7-2 but boasting that you'd scored two incredibly good goals.

 

There are two main reasons for that though Verbal.

 

Firstly, although Corbyn did better than expected, there is still a massive amount of people (and core Labour voters) that wouldn't want him or his cohorts anywhere near parliament.

 

The 'stand aside May' argument, is credible in my opinion. I am a dyed in the wool Conservative, who voted Lib Dem in this election. The parties lurch to the right is unpalatable for many like myself, and there have been a lot of protest votes that have gone to Labour, from those aforementioned middle classes. May ran an appalling campaign, and they have shown that their finger was not on the pulse. As Hammond alluded to the other day, they are now well aware that austerity is very unpopular, and any future election will see a reduction of these cuts and more investment in public services from the Conservatives to win back these voters. For this reason May must leave, and the right side of the Tories not tolerated. They thought the UKIP vote would save them (and increase their mandate).

 

However, this election was a perfect storm for Corbyn, and he failed to win the election.

 

The man, IMHO, is unelectable.

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There are two main reasons for that though Verbal.

 

Firstly, although Corbyn did better than expected, there is still a massive amount of people (and core Labour voters) that wouldn't want him or his cohorts anywhere near parliament.

 

The 'stand aside May' argument, is credible in my opinion. I am a dyed in the wool Conservative, who voted Lib Dem in this election. The parties lurch to the right is unpalatable for many like myself, and there have been a lot of protest votes that have gone to Labour, from those aforementioned middle classes. May ran an appalling campaign, and they have shown that their finger was not on the pulse. As Hammond alluded to the other day, they are now well aware that austerity is very unpopular, and any future election will see a reduction of these cuts and more investment in public services from the Conservatives to win back these voters. For this reason May must leave, and the right side of the Tories not tolerated. They thought the UKIP vote would save them (and increase their mandate).

 

However, this election was a perfect storm for Corbyn, and he failed to win the election.

 

The man, IMHO, is unelectable.

 

You sound confused, Simon.

 

Theresa May's brand of Toryism was considered pretty left-wing by Tory standards -hence why many labelled her a Red Tory. I struggle to understand what you mean by "lurch to the right", in particular, which period of modern Tory history or previous PM are you benchmarking it against?

Edited by shurlock
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You sound confused, Simon.

 

Theresa May's brand of Toryism was considered pretty left-wing by Tory standards -hence why many labelled her a Red Tory. I struggle to understand what you mean by "lurch to the right", in particular, which period of modern Tory history or previous PM are you benchmarking it against?

 

Well, that was considered wrong. Perhaps you can post a link.

 

May is far further right than Cameron, for instance.

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Well, that was considered wrong. Perhaps you can post a link.

 

May is far further right than Cameron, for instance.

That is categorically untrue. The Conservative manifesto was well regarded as a lot further Centrist than Cameron ever was.

 

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It's a breakthrough for the type of media that gets through on Facebook, yet no one checks the facts.

 

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You're a rich one to talk - have you dug up the source for that dodgy healthcare spending chart yet?

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You sound confused, Simon.

 

Theresa May's brand of Toryism was considered pretty left-wing by Tory standards -hence why many labelled her a Red Tory. I struggle to understand what you mean by "lurch to the right", in particular, which period of modern Tory history or previous PM are you benchmarking it against?

 

Correct, there's no lurch to the right. She's a ****ing pinko, just like Grocer Heath, Cameron & Major. There hasn't been a Conservative PM since the great lady herself, the rest could have been in Blair's cabinet.

 

 

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So you don't actually know the source for it - you just regurgitate what you pick up on social media. Clears things up.

Why would a sky news reported article be incorrect?

 

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It was the middle classes that turned to Labour in this election, and the working class that turned to the Conservatives (after UKIPs collapse I guess).

 

What a strange country we live in...

 

I thought the UKIP vote split 50:50 back to tory and labour.

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It wasn't quite so clear-cut as that. Yes, Corbyn attracted a huge mostly public sector middle class to his programme, but he also gained working class votes too. However, his biggest gains weren't across the class divide so much as across the age ranges. Essentially, the young voted for him (witness the crowd size at the decidedly neo-liberal capitalist free-for-all Glastonbury), where in previous elections many may not have voted at all.

 

Amidst all the crowing from McDonnell, et al, though, it's easy to forget that the Tories actually increased their share of the vote too, and defeated Labour by 60 seats. I really don't understand the 'stand aside May' argument. Claiming the result was an affirmation of Labour's right to govern is a bit like losing a game 7-2 but boasting that you'd scored two incredibly good goals.

 

No it's like Liverpool v Saints in the league, Klopp saying it's going to be easy, and Saints losing 7-6 and Tadic missed two penalties.

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Why would a sky news reported article be incorrect?

 

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It was a tweet, not an article. It will not have gone through the same process of scrutiny and verification that an article has done. I know mainstream journos who effectively treat Twitter as a plaything.

 

Anyway that's besides the point. Whether it's an article or a tweet, I will always look for the original source for a chart, figure, table as journos of all stripes abuse and misuse data. In this case, the chart seems to have been fictitious. The journo was duped and by extension you were duped too.

 

I thought you were shrewder than that, pal.

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No it's like Liverpool v Saints in the league, Klopp saying it's going to be easy, and Saints losing 7-6 and Tadic missed two penalties.

 

You can argue about metaphors for defeat all you like, fanboy. The result still means the Tories rule the roost, even as a minority government, and that Labour, sixty seats adrift, will be able to enact precisely zero percent of its manifesto.

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No it's like Liverpool v Saints in the league, Klopp saying it's going to be easy, and Saints losing 7-6 and Tadic missed two penalties.

 

I'd have said it's more like England playing Brazil in the World Cup final. Everybody thinks Brazil will win 4 or 5 nil, but they only win 1-0 aet. Brazil have World Cup & hold it for 4 years, but England players go to Glastonbury & ponce around as if they won it.

 

 

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If another election is held what would the result be this time.......? From my viewpoint the stranglehold by the majority of the press of a particularly negative view of Corbyn is broken. He might actually win....
He may win as the kids are going to vote again as its trendy. Thats fine they will be paying for their mistake for the rest of their lives as they will have to pay for his excesses not the rich who will move
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He may win as the kids are going to vote again as its trendy. Thats fine they will be paying for their mistake for the rest of their lives as they will have to pay for his excesses not the rich who will move
The kids have the chance to see their debt wiped out and vote Labour...the rich see the chance of further tax breaks and vote Conservative. I am not sure the kids even if they are made to pay for the mistake of voting Labour can have much more debt placed upon them. They are already paying for Tory excesses...
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The kids have the chance to see their debt wiped out and vote Labour...the rich see the chance of further tax breaks and vote Conservative. I am not sure the kids even if they are made to pay for the mistake of voting Labour can have much more debt placed upon them. They are already paying for Tory excesses...

 

Are you being serious? You actually think they can't have any more debt placed on them? The Tories are bad enough, you think McDonnel would actually lead a successful economy, wiping out the country's debt?

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If another election is held what would the result be this time.......? From my viewpoint the stranglehold by the majority of the press of a particularly negative view of Corbyn is broken. He might actually win....

 

The next election will have a different narrative again. Corbyn won't be the underdog anymore, he will have to look like and act like a government in waiting. The very idea that he now looks like he might actually win changes the dynamic completely.

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Are you being serious? You actually think they can't have any more debt placed on them? The Tories are bad enough, you think McDonnel would actually lead a successful economy, wiping out the country's debt?
Yes I am serious....real wages have fallen by 14% since 2008. Student debt is crippling for many. Other ex students are finding that wages are too low for them to live independently and are staying with parents.
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The next election will have a different narrative again. Corbyn won't be the underdog anymore, he will have to look like and act like a government in waiting. The very idea that he now looks like he might actually win changes the dynamic completely.

 

There's also the question of their manifesto. According to Michael Eavis Corbyn told him at Glastonbury that he would get rid if Trident as soon as possible. There was also Chakrabarti telling Sophy Ridge that free movement could stay under a different name. Their already rowing back on some key vote winning policies from the last manifesto, give it another couple of years and there will be even more.

 

A part of me wants these nippers & dreamers to get their wish & see a Corbyn Government in action. It won't be me picking up the pieces. It won't be me losing my job or facing austerity that makes the past 10 years seem like a tea party, as I'll be retired & mortgage free when the shiete hits the fan. Unfortunately my children & Grand children will be picking up the tab. They're not bribing them with my money, but the under 40's & future generations money.

 

 

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Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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The kids have the chance to see their debt wiped out and vote Labour...the rich see the chance of further tax breaks and vote Conservative. I am not sure the kids even if they are made to pay for the mistake of voting Labour can have much more debt placed upon them. They are already paying for Tory excesses...
Tory excesses lol, I thought the nasty Tories were responsible for Austerity and cut backs?????

The debt wont be wiped out it just gets put on the next generation.

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The next election will have a different narrative again. Corbyn won't be the underdog anymore, he will have to look like and act like a government in waiting. The very idea that he now looks like he might actually win changes the dynamic completely.

 

Could also work the other way - people feel more emboldened/less embarrassed to vote Corbyn as see others have done so. Many political and social movements have been successful this way.

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The next election will have a different narrative again. Corbyn won't be the underdog anymore, he will have to look like and act like a government in waiting. The very idea that he now looks like he might actually win changes the dynamic completely.

 

Or the idea that people who voted Labour didn't actually want them to win just exists in your head?

 

A few more years of Tory austerity, and hard working youngsters not having a chance of owning their own home. Plus May making a complete mess of Brexit will probably make Corbyn much more electable.

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Or the idea that people who voted Labour didn't actually want them to win just exists in your head?

 

 

Lots & lots of political pundits have stated this. They were told by insiders that candidates in marginals were telling people Corbyn couldn't win, so therefore a vote for them would limit Tory power & majority . Corbyn was also kept away from many many marginals and there were no pictures or mention of him on literature. So yes, I believe there were people who voted labour but did not want Corbyn to become PM.

 

 

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Lots & lots of political pundits have stated this. They were told by insiders that candidates in marginals were telling people Corbyn couldn't win, so therefore a vote for them would limit Tory power & majority . Corbyn was also kept away from many many marginals and there were no pictures or mention of him on literature. So yes, I believe there were people who voted labour but did not want Corbyn to become PM.

 

 

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You mean literature that was produced and printed before he started gaining traction in the debates and mainstream news coverage? Many labour MPs now admit Corbyn became an asset rather than a liability as the election went on.

Edited by shurlock
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Lots & lots of political pundits have stated this. They were told by insiders that candidates in marginals were telling people Corbyn couldn't win, so therefore a vote for them would limit Tory power & majority . Corbyn was also kept away from many many marginals and there were no pictures or mention of him on literature. So yes, I believe there were people who voted labour but did not want Corbyn to become PM.

 

 

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I agree, I know several people who voted Labour as an anti tory vote not a Corbyn vote. It could equally be said of the Referendum where there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that many people voted leave as a protest believing it would not happen, the big difference is the GE result can be changed, but quitters are adamant we cannot have a second referendum even if there is a much better understanding of what leaving means. I predict hung parliaments until Labour and the Torys show some real leadership and courage, from where I stand not likely to happen any tine soon they are both to interest in power for powers sake.

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Could also work the other way - people feel more emboldened/less embarrassed to vote Corbyn as see others have done so. Many political and social movements have been successful this way.
that is fair, kids will have watched other kids cheering Corbyn at Glastonbury and think it is cool to vote for him.

At present I think Corbyn is odds on to win the next vote. Once they have seen what they have got then they will learn but by then its too late.

I do wonder though if the young are not quite as patriotic and feel more european than English/British, perhaps they wont care that our territories that our men have died for are given away.

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that is fair, kids will have watched other kids cheering Corbyn at Glastonbury and think it is cool to vote for him.

At present I think Corbyn is odds on to win the next vote. Once they have seen what they have got then they will learn but by then its too late.

I do wonder though if the young are not quite as patriotic and feel more european than English/British, perhaps they wont care that our territories that our men have died for are given away.

 

Or middle-englanders will have seen constituencies like Enfield Southgate go Labour and think if they can do it, so can we.

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I've heard it all now. Tactical voting when presented with a binary choice, cost remain the vote. Lol

 

 

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To be fair the majority who did or did not vote, given the information now would get a remain vote. Poeple have wised up too late to what they were voting for. 10years time we may be delighted with the result but at present it looks pretty precarious. Had we not had the Brexit I suggest Corbyn would be now a beackbencher again and would have been decimated in the election, but the unjust feeling by the young made them get up and vote
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Or middle-englanders will have seen constituencies like Enfield Southgate go Labour and think if they can do it, so can we.
I suggest that the middle Englanders will have had a bit of a shock and make sure they go and vote next time. It will be on a knife edge and could go either way. Labour are energised and they have a mindset that they won, even thohgh they lost by 60 seats. If ever there was a time for a Macron type figure this isit as many of the Tory /Liberal/ Centre Labout vote is disenchanted with any of the leaders. Phillip Hammond has done himself a little bit of good by his speech last week but there is little choice if you are not Left wing
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A superb article and sums up one of the main problems for me.

 

Agree it's a problem, though hard to say how widespread or representative it is. The teacher in question works in a strong Labour constituency (London?) where there are fewer incentives to present a different point of view. The situation is very different for left-leaning teachers who work in conservative constituencies and areas. They will face a parental backlash if they go overboard.

 

I know from personal experience I.e.growing up in a conservative constituency that teachers who I knew to be left-leaning would park their views at the school gate. If they did bring their views into the classroom, they did so in self-conscious, self-deprecating way so we could readily identify and separate them from the course content.

Edited by shurlock
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Are you being serious? You actually think they can't have any more debt placed on them? The Tories are bad enough, you think McDonnel would actually lead a successful economy, wiping out the country's debt?
From the Telegraph January 2017 ......"Banks and businesses have taken full advantage of the Bank of England’s quantitative easing scheme rolled out last year, borrowing far more than anticipated from the central bank.

 

The Bank of England bought £4.9bn of corporate bonds in just three months, when the scheme intended to buy £10bn over 18 months.

 

At the same time the Term Funding Scheme (TFS) which gives cheap funds to banks has injected £20.7bn into lenders. The aim of both policies, alongside a plan to buy £60bn of government bonds, was to keep interest rates down." Is this how you think we should build a successful economy?

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Agree it's a problem, though hard to say how widespread or representative it is. The teacher in question works in a strong Labour constituency (London?) where there are fewer incentives to present a different point of view. The situation is very different for left-leaning teachers who work in conservative constituencies and areas. They will face a parental backlash if they go overboard.

 

I know from personal experience I.e.growing up in a conservative constituency that teachers who I knew to be left-leaning would park their views at the school gate. If they did bring their views into the classroom, they did so in self-conscious, self-deprecating way so we could readily identify and separate them from the course content.

Not sure I can agree that that sort of thing is widespread in more conservative areas. My experience (and what we can see with demonstrations and some of the Liberal idiocy at top universities) suggests that there is a fair amount of this leftie bias infecting the minds of the young. No wonder someone as unpalatable as corbyn is viewed as a saviour by them.

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Not sure I can agree that that sort of thing is widespread in more conservative areas. My experience (and what we can see with demonstrations and some of the Liberal idiocy at top universities) suggests that there is a fair amount of this leftie bias infecting the minds of the young. No wonder someone as unpalatable as corbyn is viewed as a saviour by them.

 

It's no shock really. Most people who enter teaching are left-leaning, as is the case with any helping/caring profession. I would hazard a guess that most people who enter banking are right wing, in contrast.

 

My nephew decided to start a little business in his school to make a few extra quid. He bought multi-packs of crisps, broke them down and sold them separately for a small profit. He was suspended, not because he was re-selling crisps from multi-packs (which you are not allowed to do) or not because he was selling stuff in school... but wait for it... because he was making a profit. So instead of championing his entrepreneurship, he was punished for making a profit. As if profit is the root of all evil. With that attitude in our schools, who's going to create the wealth to pay for all of this social justice??

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Or the idea that people who voted Labour didn't actually want them to win just exists in your head?

 

A few more years of Tory austerity, and hard working youngsters not having a chance of owning their own home. Plus May making a complete mess of Brexit will probably make Corbyn much more electable.

 

If people think Corbyn is somehow going to produce millions of cheap houses overnight, they really are deluded. It's supply and demand, I'm not sure why you'd think it was anything to do with the Torries.

 

Young people have to rent rooms and share houses, you'd be deluded to think otherwise. I was in exactly the same boat until very recently; young, earning a very decent wage and living in a tiny one bedroom flat in Bristol.

 

At what age do you think people should be able to buy a home?

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Not sure I can agree that that sort of thing is widespread in more conservative areas. My experience (and what we can see with demonstrations and some of the Liberal idiocy at top universities) suggests that there is a fair amount of this leftie bias infecting the minds of the young. No wonder someone as unpalatable as corbyn is viewed as a saviour by them.

 

You're conflating liberalism with a leftie bias, two very different things.

 

There are lots of reasons why the young might be more left-leaning - the young have historically been more radical and idealistic. Hard to attribute it exclusively to the education or teaching system.

 

Frankly the young who vote Corbyn and older voters who support the Tories have more in common than you think. On one level, both are voting for parties that promise to advance their economic interests.

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Frankly the young who vote Corbyn and older voters who support the Tories have more in common than you think. On one level, both are voting for parties that promise to advance their economic interests.

 

My old man used to say that if you don't vote Labour when you are young, you haven't got a heart. But if you don't vote Tory when you are older, you haven't got a head.

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You're conflating liberalism with a leftie bias, two very different things.

 

There are lots of reasons why the young might be more left-leaning - the young have historically been more radical and idealistic. Hard to attribute it exclusively to the education or teaching system.

 

Frankly the young who vote Corbyn and older voters who support the Tories have more in common than you think. On one level, both are voting for parties that promise to advance their economic interests.

Mainly because the young forget or simply don't understand they'll have to pay for it later.

 

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You mean as opposed to having to pay the older generation's debts later?

Very good argument for defecit reduction....

 

Im quite happy to pay our debts now.

 

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