Sants 0 - Everton 3: Post match rage thread

For 15m, which evidently isn't our priority at the moment

Signing him doesn't mean we can't sign anyone else.

I was told Austin is on 75k a week - might be the reason no one has signed him yet.

I think everyone is over-reacting, I mean ...we're on the same points as Chelsea..and they lost 3-0 ..and Mourinho thinks it doesn't matter because it was a fake result.

so ....RELAX

I was told Austin is on 75k a week - might be the reason no one has signed him yet.

....even if (someone bought him) for £15 million ....on a £75k salary, a 4 year contact would mean ANOTHER £15 million too. I don't think so.

Cedric is absolutely good enough.

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

Lukaku's done that to much better defenders than Cedric, hence he cost £28m!!

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

2 games in and you slate him already. Give the kid a chance. I think he look decent..

After the doom and gloom of Saturday............... something comes along to put a smile on your face.

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54905-Now-we-know#.VdHq3LJViko

Both Chelsea and City looked a bit shabby yesterday so best to just Cheer up and move on.

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

You must have missed the second half then when he held up, tackled and won the ball off Lukaku several times.

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

There isn't a fullback in the league that will cope easily with Lukaku in that mood. IMHO Cedric was fine in the second half when we had brought on a proper DM to go alongside big Vic. That goes for Targett too.

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

Nope, Cedric's a great player when he's got a midfield in front of him. I was a lot more bothered watching Lukaku run past Yoshida where he gave him a 2 yard head start than Cedric where he overpowered him - and again, with a midfield we mostly stopped that happening.

It has probably brought a touch of realism. we were well beaten by a good team with a good manager who had three players of real quality playing at the top of their game. In the second half after reorganisation we weren't disgraced. But why on earth did RK think it unnecessary not to allow for a quick breakout from a corner. With the pace of Konu and Lukaku it was suicidal.

I am absolutely disgusted with some of the ridiculous criticism of Targett, his professional foul saved a certain goal earlier. IMO he was fortunate only to get a yellow.

You can't sell two top class defenders, miss out on signing one from a loan, and suffer two key defensive injuries, and get away with it with the top half Prem teams.

We need to buy well, and it's not impossible on a budget, look at Palace. What is difficult is not to get screwed over when everybody in the game knows your desperate for a central defender.

Surely you're being sarcastic ?

 

Cedric doesn't seem to have any attributes for a wide defender at all . Watching Lukaku run past him was frightening .

Lukaku's done that to much better defenders than Cedric, hence he cost £28m!!

However, thing is it wasn't a piece of skill that outfoxed him, it was raw pace, power and physicality that Cedric couldn't possibly match up to. Physical attributes aren't really something that can be learned or really improved upon, that's what's so concerning.

We were sat on the Itchen North/Centre and it happened right in front of us; Cedric charged towards Lukaku full-pelt in an attempt to shoulder him off the ball and despite having all the momentum on his side, simply bounced off him.

Then, moving onto plan B, he tore off after him but couldn't even close the distance (indeed, Lukaku actually managed to lengthen his lead in the sprint)

If your full-backs can't match up to their opponents in either strength or pace, you're in a world of trouble. As it is, neither Targett nor Cedric can do so.

However, thing is it wasn't a piece of skill that outfoxed him, it was raw pace, power and physicality that Cedric couldn't possibly match up to. Physical attributes aren't really something that can be learned or really improved upon, that's what's so concerning.

 

We were sat on the Itchen North/Centre and it happened right in front of us; Cedric charged towards Lukaku full-pelt in an attempt to shoulder him off the ball and despite having all the momentum on his side, simply bounced off him.

 

Then, moving onto plan B, he tore off after him but couldn't even close the distance (indeed, Lukaku actually managed to lengthen his lead in the sprint)

 

If your full-backs can't match up to their opponents in either strength or pace, you're in a world of trouble. As it is, neither Targett nor Cedric can do so.

To be fair, on that form Lukaku would out power most full backs. He was pretty impressive.

If your full-backs can't match up to their opponents in either strength or pace, you're in a world of trouble. As it is, neither Targett nor Cedric can do so.

So to put it simply, all we need to do is go out and buy at least 2 fullbacks who are stronger and quicker then every attacker they may or may not face this season? Makes you wonder why we haven't done that already...

Physical attributes aren't really something that can be ... really improved upon

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Spot on about the attack. Pelle wastes loads of decent chances. Which is why I keep banging on about Charlie Austin. Works harder and is a better finisher, and he's available.

You certainly can't have too many good goalscorers in this league. They can make average teams look good.

If Pelle gets injured he'd be a great replacement, but can we afford to have one sitting on the bench when other positions look short? Mind you we only have Long and Rodriguez to come in currently and both have failed to shine in a one up front system. Maybe if Pelle does get injured we consider a different system rather than chucking one of those two into one that doesn't suit.

So to put it simply, all we need to do is go out and buy at least 2 fullbacks who are stronger and quicker then every attacker they may or may not face this season? Makes you wonder why we haven't done that already...

Or you can understand the strengths the weaknesses of your players in comparison to the opposition and pick and choose a system which supports this, something which collectively we didn't do on Saturday until it was too late.

If your full-backs can't match up to their opponents in either strength or pace, you're in a world of trouble. As it is, neither Targett nor Cedric can do so.

So, does Clyne's inability to defend against high balls slung to the far post make him a bad defender?

No, it makes this an area of weakness in his game that has to be addressed with tactical coverage - something that was missing in a lot of places on Saturday. All players have weaknesses - not that losing out in a physical battle with Lukaku is indicative of a weakness.

This is a team game, and we came up short on that front at the weekend ("the Schneiderlin gap") - leaving quite a few players over-exposed.

That will be addressed, and most of the players who had problems at the weekend will look much better.

Lukaku's done that to much better defenders than Cedric, hence he cost £28m!!

he seems to make a habit if doing it to us though. Unplayable on his day. Wish he'd pick a different day

We just didn't play well I can't single one player out better or worse than another , Maybe the focus was lost a little with Thursdays game on the horizon but I expect a reaction against Midget Land if not then I'll start to worry Thursdays is the most important game IMO!

he seems to make a habit if doing it to us though. Unplayable on his day. Wish he'd pick a different day

He was absolute toss last year against us in April and December. He only humps us when he's got Yoshida marking him, and in December 2014 even that didn't help.

We will finish 4th this season! Not the greatest start but we are going to be strong finishers this year. Just a feeling, but I think that Mr Koeman is going to give this squad the confidence to be amazing.......and I might be a touch drunk!

Lukaku's done that to much better defenders than Cedric, hence he cost £28m!!

Cedric has struggled against everybody he has come up against so far . I'm wondering what Koeman ever saw in him .

We will finish 4th this season! Not the greatest start but we are going to be strong finishers this year. Just a feeling, but I think that Mr Koeman is going to give this squad the confidence to be amazing.......and I might be a touch drunk!

I'll have a pint of whatever you're having!

Cedric has struggled against everybody he has come up against so far . I'm wondering what Koeman ever saw in him .

Really? I didn't see him struggling against Arnhem or particularly against Newcastle he didn't have a great game yesterday (though he improved second half) but he was hardly alone in that.

Really? I didn't see him struggling against Arnhem or particularly against Newcastle he didn't have a great game yesterday (though he improved second half) but he was hardly alone in that.

He was all over the shop against an out of position Obertan

Cedric has struggled against everybody he has come up against so far . I'm wondering what Koeman ever saw in him .

With the exception of Feyenoord, Red Bull Leipzig, Red Bull Salzburg, Groningen and Vitesse at home. Plus he set up our first goal against Newcastle.

Really? I didn't see him struggling against Arnhem or particularly against Newcastle he didn't have a great game yesterday (though he improved second half) but he was hardly alone in that.

He really struggled against Newcastle.

With the exception of Feyenoord, Red Bull Leipzig, Red Bull Salzburg, Groningen and Vitesse at home. Plus he set up our first goal against Newcastle.

Actually, if you're counting games that don't matter, he was caught of position numerous times against RB Salzburg.

Cedric is absolutely good enough.

Surely this is equally 'drivel' as some on here list to protest, as it is stating at this stage he is not up to it. So far he has shown nothing to suggest he is good enough.

Cedric has struggled against everybody he has come up against so far . I'm wondering what Koeman ever saw in him .

If anyone can get him firing Koeman can!

To be fair, on that form Lukaku would out power most full backs. He was pretty impressive.

He was very impressive. You might remember in both games v Everton last season Martinez played Lukaku out wide on the left and Clyne kept him very quiet.

You certainly can't have too many good goalscorers in this league. They can make average teams look good.

 

If Pelle gets injured he'd be a great replacement, but can we afford to have one sitting on the bench when other positions look short? Mind you we only have Long and Rodriguez to come in currently and both have failed to shine in a one up front system. Maybe if Pelle does get injured we consider a different system rather than chucking one of those two into one that doesn't suit.

How about we sell Long? I'd happily swap him for Austin.

Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed to Pants 0-Everton 3 from Sants 0 - Everton 3 ?

Just asking

People do realise it's the start of the season? Where there are always shock results and teams that aren't at their best yet.

The main problem was the balance of the team Davis shouldn't of started in the holding role in from of Yoshida especially when our fullbacks push so high and also we seemed to cross the ball to pelle way to much as he wasn't winning anything in the air against Evertons CBs compared to Lukaku who ran Fonte and Yoshida absolutely ragged, he destroyed Yoshida just like he did when he was at West Brom. I think it was all about the pace and power of Kone and Lukaku which our defence couldn't handle at all.

But I don't think there much to worry about Romeu will improve our midfield and the balance of our team and then hopefully the new centre back we bring in will help improve the defence along with the return of Bertrand plus Cedrics defending is bound to improve at least a little bit.

People do realise it's the start of the season? Where there are always shock results and teams that aren't at their best yet.

The main problem was the balance of the team Davis shouldn't of started in the holding role in from of Yoshida especially when our fullbacks push so high and also we seemed to cross the ball to pelle way to much as he wasn't winning anything in the air against Evertons CBs compared to Lukaku who ran Fonte and Yoshida absolutely ragged, he destroyed Yoshida just like he did when he was at West Brom. I think it was all about the pace and power of Kone and Lukaku which our defence couldn't handle at all.

 

But I don't think there much to worry about Romeu will improve our midfield and the balance of our team and then hopefully the new centre back we bring in will help improve the defence along with the return of Bertrand plus Cedrics defending is bound to improve at least a little bit.

Good points... but our defence would not have had to handle so much pace if we were properly organised in midfield... we were a total shambles in that department. I am expecting Koeman to re-invent our defence, not only personnel but also tactically. Would not surprise me if we end up playing 3 centre halves at times as proper centre halves...

Good points... but our defence would not have had to handle so much pace if we were properly organised in midfield... we were a total shambles in that department. I am expecting Koeman to re-invent our defence, not only personnel but also tactically. Would not surprise me if we end up playing 3 centre halves at times as proper centre halves...

I agree. I was watching some of the recording again yesterday (not nice) and it was noticeable how many times we were caught in the break from one of our own corners. Poor delivery didn't help either but it was obviously a deliberate tactic by Everton to break out quickly. What is disappointing is that we didn't adapt our play accordingly.

To be fair, on that form Lukaku would out power most full backs. He was pretty impressive.

Over-powering in a 50/50 battle is fine.

However, Lukaku picked the ball up in Everton's left-back position, took a moment to control the ball, and despite Cedric charging into him with all his momentum, he couldn't even slightly inconvenience him. I'm not asking for our full-backs to be able to shoulder a target-man to the floor here.

So to put it simply, all we need to do is go out and buy at least 2 fullbacks who are stronger and quicker then every attacker they may or may not face this season? Makes you wonder why we haven't done that already...

Full-backs should be at least one of the two. If they're not, you'll be beaten very comfortably by some very ordinary teams who are no more technically adept than you are.

So, does Clyne's inability to defend against high balls slung to the far post make him a bad defender?

 

No, it makes this an area of weakness in his game that has to be addressed with tactical coverage - something that was missing in a lot of places on Saturday. All players have weaknesses - not that losing out in a physical battle with Lukaku is indicative of a weakness.

Almost all full-backs are physically shorter than centre-forwards and yes, you're right in thinking that if you're the attacking team, you want to try and circumnavigate the centre-backs and expose that mismatch with the full-back.

This is a team game, and we came up short on that front at the weekend ("the Schneiderlin gap") - leaving quite a few players over-exposed.

Was Cedric really over-exposed? Lukaku got the ball with his back to goal in Everton's left-back position with Cedric *right there* and yet still ended up charging towards our penalty area with Steven Davis having to give up a yellow card to bring him down.

That simply shouldn't happen. A full back should be faster or stronger than an opposing forward.

That will be addressed, and most of the players who had problems at the weekend will look much better.

It'll be addressed if he's fundamentally good enough. I'm very, very concerned that he isn't.

Over-powering in a 50/50 battle is fine.

 

However, Lukaku picked the ball up in Everton's left-back position, took a moment to control the ball, and despite Cedric charging into him with all his momentum, he couldn't even slightly inconvenience him. I'm not asking for our full-backs to be able to shoulder a target-man to the floor here.

 

 

 

Full-backs should be at least one of the two. If they're not, you'll be beaten very comfortably by some very ordinary teams who are no more technically adept than you are.

 

 

 

Almost all full-backs are physically shorter than centre-forwards and yes, you're right in thinking that if you're the attacking team, you want to try and circumnavigate the centre-backs and expose that mismatch with the full-back.

 

 

 

Was Cedric really over-exposed? Lukaku got the ball with his back to goal in Everton's left-back position with Cedric *right there* and yet still ended up charging towards our penalty area with Steven Davis having to give up a yellow card to bring him down.

 

That simply shouldn't happen. A full back should be faster or stronger than an opposing forward.

 

 

 

It'll be addressed if he's fundamentally good enough. I'm very, very concerned that he isn't.

It was Targett and not Davis. He had to move across from the left to try and cover but was overloaded by the two or three Everton players coming at him. He takes a step to his left just before deciding that he needs to get across to Lukaku which leaves him a fraction late to make the tackle. There is only a fraction of a second at this level to decide what to do and he needs more experience so that his positioning becomes instinctive. This move came direct from one of our corners which was poorly delivered (Davis?).

I agree with the rest of your analysis.

A lot of full scale meltdowns on here and i was very disappointed after the game, but a few days on, i just feel we've moved away from what served us so well last year and it has cost us in the two league games so far - something that can be fixed and i certainly don't think it's because Maya or Cedric or Targett (who was grim watching at times) are especially poor.

Last year, the front boys didnt do all that much protecting of the full backs, but together Morgan and Vic covered very well, shuffling across and snuffing out any issues.

Due to people leaving we've started the two games a lot more attack focused and left Vic almost on his own to try and cover the middle and help the full backs, which isnt possible, even for him.

With Romeu on board, and noting the instant impact he made on Saturday in terms of making us look more solid, i think (and hope!) we can return to the defensive platform that worked for us last season, and with the improved options in attack that we do have, hopefully we can get back on track quickly.

Interesting debate about Cedric. I'm never one to make snap judgements of players but I must admit that Cedric has given me cause for concern defensively. I'll put it no stronger than that because he has attributes going forward and he will improve as he adapts. What bothers me is his positional play and the timing of his tackles, which to be fair are fairly fundamental requirements for a defender (a positive is that these things can be coached). He mistimed tackles against Lukaku and previously Obertan. He got in too close and got done by both of them. It's not about relative strength but about positioning and timing of tackles. I think it was deliberate tactic by Everton to put power and pace on our flank, i.e. targetting those areas. We made it all the easier for them by ceding centre midfield. Being new, Cedric is disadvantaged by not knowing the players he's up against. It was clear to all of us that Barkley was going to come onto his right to shoot. I've seen it only in real time but my recollection is that Cedric didn't attempt to show him down the left. Very difficult against Barkley who is quality in those positions and may have scored against any full back from there, and I wouldn't hold it against Cedric. He will get to know his opposition. I think he'll improve.

Well I see a fair few concerns about Maya,Targett and Cedric here but honestly what do people expect for their money. Targett is young and comes from the academy, he's 2nd choice LB at best at Saints; Cedric cost about 4 million and so did Maya so really what do you expect from players costing those sort of sums, a top class PL player is 15-18 million at least, between 8 and 14 milion you're in the maybe/maybe not section and any less thaSum dx

Well I see a fair few concerns about Maya,Targett and Cedric here but honestly what do people expect for their money. Targett is young and comes from the academy, he's 2nd choice LB at best at Saints; Cedric cost about 4 million and so did Maya so really what do you expect from players costing those sort of sums, a top class PL player is 15-18 million at least, between 8 and 14 milion you're in the maybe/maybe not section and any less that sum you're in the take a punt and hope area. Didn't think Maya was too bad on Saturday myself, probably better than Fonte.

Well I see a fair few concerns about Maya,Targett and Cedric here but honestly what do people expect for their money. Targett is young and comes from the academy, he's 2nd choice LB at best at Saints; Cedric cost about 4 million and so did Maya so really what do you expect from players costing those sort of sums, a top class PL player is 15-18 million at least, between 8 and 14 milion you're in the maybe/maybe not section and any less that sum you're in the take a punt and hope area. Didn't think Maya was too bad on Saturday myself, probably better than Fonte.

Got caught from behind for their second.

Got caught from behind for their second.

Oh I saw the game but apart from that he was pretty solid in the main...well according to my estimation of sqolidity that is.

Oh I saw the game but apart from that he was pretty solid in the main...well according to my estimation of sqolidity that is.

To be honest I don't think that anybody was solid on Saturday, apart from Stekelenburg.

Looks like our waiting game for a CB is hurting us. And generally, our policy to sell most of a first team in the space of 12 months may be catching up with us

 

We were poor last week for most of the game, poor away to vitesse and most of the sides around us have significantly improved their starting line ups.

Fortunately I have been in Paris over the weekend and missed the usual meltdown when we lose....but I couldn't let this go. "Our policy to sell most of a first team?" Even for you this one takes the biscuit.

Well I see a fair few concerns about Maya,Targett and Cedric here but honestly what do people expect for their money. Targett is young and comes from the academy, he's 2nd choice LB at best at Saints; Cedric cost about 4 million and so did Maya so really what do you expect from players costing those sort of sums, a top class PL player is 15-18 million at least, between 8 and 14 milion you're in the maybe/maybe not section and any less that sum you're in the take a punt and hope area. Didn't think Maya was too bad on Saturday myself, probably better than Fonte.

You will pay this sort of money for an establish P/L player but we did not pay anything like this for Clyne but helped to develop him into a top class RB and an International. Hopefuly we can do the same with Matt Targett and Cedric. Not so sure about Maya though.

Fortunately I have been in Paris over the weekend and missed the usual meltdown when we lose....but I couldn't let this go. "Our policy to sell most of a first team?" Even for you this one takes the biscuit.

Why does it take the biscuit? It's a valid point. Ok, so the term 'our policy' may not be the best choice of words but it's a fact that we have sold most of a first team in 12 months.

When a club talk about taking things to the next level you don't expect them to sell off their best players two season's on the trot. How many other clubs have qualified for Europe and then offloaded their best players? I'd have thought the aim was to do everything possible to hang on to your best players and add some real quality and depth to the squad. The people running the club obviously think otherwise. I genuinely hope their business model delivers the desired results but given that other clubs aren't adopting a similar plan leads me to think that it's not widely regarded as being a good idea.