EU referendum

Leave maintain a healthy lead in all the polls.

 

Good news

Or not good news depending on your point of view. For what it is worth, the BBC 'Poll Tracker' has Leave 3 points ahead at the moment while some individual polls show a bigger lead. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271589

What stands out is that some 13% of respondents are still registered as 'don't know'. Many of them in practice will be 'don't vote' I suspect. However, this group may still decide the outcome so the race is but no means all over.

These polls are useless, remain will win comfortably IMO.

Just one though Wes here are some more

 

 

The view from the Washington Post:

 

'Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.'

That's one part of the remain argument that winds me up. We will not leave a market of 508 million, when 64 million of this 508 are in the UK. 444 million fair enough, but 508 million is complete bull.

These polls are useless, remain will win comfortably IMO.

I agree, sadly

Just one though Wes here are some more

 

 

The view from the Washington Post:

 

'Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.'

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html

 

Their conclusion that we would be committing economic suicide and it would be an act of national insanity if we left the EU totally undermines the whole piece. It somehow infers that we would cease trading with the EU. It is the very epitome of Project Fear and has little merit in any event, because the USA would never ever join such an organisation itself involving loss of national sovereignty, allowing the loss of control of their own borders and the subjugation of their legal system to that of another entity. As I have stated before, I'm sure that they would take a very dim view of our PM or our press advising their voters who to elect in their Presidential elections.

 

The view from the Financial Times

 

There will be a shock to the economy after BREXIT … but people are underestimating the severity of the shock

 

The view from the Economist Simon Wren Lewis

 

This article is all over the place and typical of the views of somebody living in their own ivory tower, completely out of touch with the situation affecting the man in the street.

 

Among everyone and everything I read at the moment there is a mixture of disbelief and despair over the now distinct possibility that the UK will vote for Brexit. Obviously that is partly because I tend to read other economists, and as Chris Giles notes economists are virtually united in believing Brexit will be bad for the economy. (If you cannot access the FT, read Paul Johnson.) But it is also because there is a clear educational divide in support for Brexit, and I suspect most of what I read comes from one side of that divide. The only other event that I can imagine causing an equal degree of unanimous disbelief and despair would be if Trump looked like becoming President.

Nice arrogant dismissal of half of the electorate as being thick. And good of him to apply the same arrogant logic to the people of America in their Presidential election. I wonder how he feels about the way that our PM and Chancellor have lied about the financial implications of Brexit? He is probably quite content about that, as he doesn't comment on it, so not as principled as some other economists.

 

There is disbelief because it makes no sense. Of course there is a minority who hate the idea of sharing sovereignty, Half the population, mate. and another minority that really hate immigrants. But these two groups combined would not be enough to win a referendum. Instead we have a much larger group that are concerned about immigration, but their concern appears to be not worth very much to them. You aren't bright enough to realise that the worry is that the immigration is uncontrolled, and puts extreme pressure on the NHS, the Education system and housing. This was something I noted some time ago, but it seems to be a robust result: in a recent ComRes poll 68% say they would not be happy to lose any income to secure less immigration (perhaps because they believe less immigration will raise their income). More immigration is lowering income, so why wouldn't less immigration raise it, or at least prevent it being lowered?

 

It makes no sense because economists are as sure as they ever are that people will on average be worse off with Brexit. But a large section of the population have either not got the memo or have ignored it. They're absolutely ****ed off with these doom-laden forecasts from the likes of you, so yes, they tend to ignore it. This will be an important point when it comes to what happens after Brexit: for many Brexit will have been a vote to control immigration, and sovereignty and the supremacy of out legal system but only because a lot of those same people think that immigration can be controlled without making them worse off. In other words it will not be a clear mandate for voting against a Norway/Switzerland option, because anything else will make people worse off (as most MPs know). He really has no concrete evidence of what trade arrangements will be made post-Brexit, as although he might be an economist, he is not an expert in trade. His economic forecasts are based on many assumptions, probably on an agenda that assumes a worst case scenario. As he mentions Norway and Switzerland, does he not seem to realise that they have the most successful trading economies despite being outside of the EU?

 

There is despair because economists and others who think Brexit will make people worse off have no way of getting their message across to those that really need that information. I know Gove has said he is fed up with experts, but I’m not convinced most people are (for reasons given here and reiterated here). Half the population are. But writing articles in the Guardian or letters to the Times will not get through to those we need to hear the message (see final chart here). It is why I wrote this. For academic economists I think it is part of a general problem that the media are losing interest in what we think, The penny drops which is why I wrote this for the Royal Economic Society newsletter.

 

Whether we do or do not leave the EU, I hope one result of this referendum will be that otherwise sensible people will stop saying that our tabloid press is not that much of a problem. What do you propose? Press censorship? It might not be if our broadcast media were brave enough to report facts, you mean the facts that you label as facts which others might dismiss as assumptions or speculation but instead it is obsessed with balance, If you're talking BBC here, then of course it has to be balanced and impartial as it is financed by the tax payers. What an idiotic position to hold as well as being heavily influenced by what some tabloids say. How else can you account for 58% of people thinking that Turkey is likely to join the EU within ten years, which in reality is close to a zero probability event. The electorate have heard Dodgy Dave championing Turkey's membership of the EU as recently as just before the referendum. Brussels is on the verge of allowing Turkish citizens visa free access to the EU. We are contributing financially towards assisting Turkey's membership. That is how one can account for 58% of people thinking that Turkey is likely to join the EU within 10 years.

Democracy can become dangerous when a few people have so much control over the means of information.

I agree with the last sentence. Democracy can indeed become dangerous when a few people have so much control over the means of information. I'm talking about economists here like this one, as well as the heads of government who can at taxpayers' expense put out propaganda to every voter advising a particular position, or use Treasury figures which they then distort to suit their agendas for example.The essence of the democratic system though, is allowing the electorate to decide issues of National importance by way of a referendum. It isn't helpful then for people like this economist to label the electorate as being insufficiently educated to arrive at the conclusion that would be espoused by the likes of him, somebody who is ironically a part of the few people having control over the means of information via the media, in this case the Financial Times.

These polls are useless, remain will win comfortably IMO.

I agree, sadly

You can add me to the pessimistic Brexiter list! Odds on remain shortening slightly to 4/9.

These polls are useless, remain will win comfortably IMO.

They were starting to lose the plot, but because of yesterday they will now calm down a bit which will get them over the line. The only way out will be when the whole stinking corrupt vessel goes down

I'm in the "don't know" camp at the moment. I am not into politics. I don't feel informed enough to be trusted with a vote. I hear what sound like lies and exaggeration from both sides. I've watched Brexit the movie on YouTube and even acknowledging that it is clearly one sided, the facts about how the EU is run make me not want to be part of it. But then if you want to be out it seems like you are siding with Farage and all the loonies. Then I hear Michael Moore saying we should look to our European neighbours like France, Italy and Portugal as great things are happening there for normal working people (their T&Cs are apparently amongst the best in the world) and I think yes I want to be part of that. I think I'm leaning towards remain, because even if the EU has some obvious flaws, I don't feel like life in the UK in 2016 is really that bad. We've been in the club for a long time now and we seem to have done just fine. On the other hand... all that public money lining the pockets of EU bureaucrats!! Its not a simple choice to make.

That's one part of the remain argument that winds me up. We will not leave a market of 508 million, when 64 million of this 508 are in the UK. 444 million fair enough, but 508 million is complete bull.

That's fair enough. We would be leaving a market of 508 million. After we left the EU market would be 444 million. We trade with both, not exclusively one or the other. 444 million is still a hell of a lot and is a lot better than 'only' 64 million, but it would be 64m plus 444m so the argument still stands.

I'm in the "don't know" camp at the moment. I am not into politics. I don't feel informed enough to be trusted with a vote. I hear what sound like lies and exaggeration from both sides. I've watched Brexit the movie on YouTube and even acknowledging that it is clearly one sided' date=' the facts about how the EU is run make me not want to be part of it. But then if you want to be out it seems like you are siding with Farage and all the loonies. Then I hear Michael Moore saying we should look to our European neighbours like France, Italy and Portugal as great things are happening there for normal working people (their T&Cs are apparently amongst the best in the world) and I think yes I want to be part of that. I think I'm leaning towards remain, because even if the EU has some obvious flaws, I don't feel like life in the UK in 2016 is really that bad. We've been in the club for a long time now and we seem to have done just fine. On the other hand... all that public money lining the pockets of EU bureaucrats!! Its not a simple choice to make.[/quote']

 

which ever side you vote for. Ignore the personalities in both camps.

 

you are not electing farage or eddie izzard for that matter

that is part of the reason why the 'remain' side are not doing anywhere near as well as they should be. They have spent far too long attacking personalities rather than the argument

I'm in the "don't know" camp at the moment. I am not into politics. I don't feel informed enough to be trusted with a vote. I hear what sound like lies and exaggeration from both sides. I've watched Brexit the movie on YouTube and even acknowledging that it is clearly one sided' date=' the facts about how the EU is run make me not want to be part of it. But then if you want to be out it seems like you are siding with Farage and all the loonies. Then I hear Michael Moore saying we should look to our European neighbours like France, Italy and Portugal as great things are happening there for normal working people (their T&Cs are apparently amongst the best in the world) and I think yes I want to be part of that. I think I'm leaning towards remain, because even if the EU has some obvious flaws, I don't feel like life in the UK in 2016 is really that bad. We've been in the club for a long time now and we seem to have done just fine. On the other hand... all that public money lining the pockets of EU bureaucrats!! Its not a simple choice to make.[/quote']

 

I look at it this way:

 

What does it cost us?

What do we get for our membership and is it worth the cost?

 

In my view most politicians are only in it for themselves anyway. With the honourable exception of that poor woman MP Jo Cox and I am sure there are others. My thoughts are with her family.

One question I asked of a very pro Brexit (I myself am not sure)and in the long is not important, but remember 20 or so years ago a car in Europe was thousands of pounds cheaper and companies woud bring them in from the continent and sell them on to us Islanders. The EEC put legislation that this disparity could not be so large in the future and we could buy vehicles at about the same money wherever, I assume the car giants will take advantage once we leave, the same going for any of the multi nationals who have us at a disadvantage.

I look at it this way:

 

What does it cost us?

What do we get for our membership and is it worth the cost?

 

In my view most politicians are only in it for themselves anyway. With the honourable exception of that poor woman MP Jo Cox and I am sure there are others. My thoughts are with her family.

to be fair, not sure why you have brought her up. Nothing to do with this debate at all

I'm in the "don't know" camp at the moment. I am not into politics. I don't feel informed enough to be trusted with a vote. I hear what sound like lies and exaggeration from both sides. I've watched Brexit the movie on YouTube and even acknowledging that it is clearly one sided' date=' the facts about how the EU is run make me not want to be part of it. But then if you want to be out it seems like you are siding with Farage and all the loonies. Then I hear Michael Moore saying we should look to our European neighbours like France, Italy and Portugal as great things are happening there for normal working people (their T&Cs are apparently amongst the best in the world) and I think yes I want to be part of that. I think I'm leaning towards remain, because even if the EU has some obvious flaws, I don't feel like life in the UK in 2016 is really that bad. We've been in the club for a long time now and we seem to have done just fine. On the other hand... all that public money lining the pockets of EU bureaucrats!! Its not a simple choice to make.[/quote']Very much of the same opinion

One question I asked of a very pro Brexit (I myself am not sure)and in the long is not important, but remember 20 or so years ago a car in Europe was thousands of pounds cheaper and companies woud bring them in from the continent and sell them on to us Islanders. The EEC put legislation that this disparity could not be so large in the future and we could buy vehicles at about the same money wherever, I assume the car giants will take advantage once we leave, the same going for any of the multi nationals who have us at a disadvantage.

German business leaders (who are the most powerful lobby in the EU by a mile) were in the press last week stating that a BREXIT would easily mean a unique deal with the UK (worlds 5th biggest pot of money and the EUs by some distance) where free trade will still happen, we pay a lower contribution and there will be an end to uncontrolled immigration from the EU (with a different system in place) and we retain full sovereignty. not much will change just that we give less, have full control of our borders and laws.

they are not politicians trying to save their european project.

One question I asked of a very pro Brexit (I myself am not sure)and in the long is not important, but remember 20 or so years ago a car in Europe was thousands of pounds cheaper and companies woud bring them in from the continent and sell them on to us Islanders. The EEC put legislation that this disparity could not be so large in the future and we could buy vehicles at about the same money wherever, I assume the car giants will take advantage once we leave, the same going for any of the multi nationals who have us at a disadvantage.

Britain used to be called 'Treasure Island' by multi-national manufacturers because prices were so much higher here than in other markets. The EU has helped for sure by breaking up dealership monopolies and making grey imports possible. Its interesting how different brands are perceived in different markets though, and therefore how much they can charge for their products. It varies more than you'd think.

to be fair, not sure why you have brought her up. Nothing to do with this debate at all

Only in the context of dishonest politicians. As you rightly say, nothing to do with this debate whatsoever.

Only in the context of dishonest politicians. As you rightly say, nothing to do with this debate whatsoever.

I had never heard of her before yesterday. Have no idea of her honesty or principles in public service or in private. Just watching the news, it is getting a little bit 'princess Di' about it all.

tragic as it is (very), I hope the bloke who did it never sees freedom every again.

Seems said bloke had been harassing her for the last 3 months and is a complete mental. Something failed somewhere.

maybe, this will stop people complaining about MPs (thoroughly deserved) Pay rise. They don't get paid enough IMO

Britain used to be called 'Treasure Island' by multi-national manufacturers because prices were so much higher here than in other markets. The EU has helped for sure by breaking up dealership monopolies and making grey imports possible. Its interesting how different brands are perceived in different markets though, and therefore how much they can charge for their products. It varies more than you'd think.

When I used to do a lot of business in Denmark they woould tell me that there cars were actually the cheapest in Europe before the government then stuck a registration tax of 180% on them. Last year this was reduced to 160%. I seem to remember that importing a 'used' car was cheaper, used meaning something like 10 years and 250,000km. Refurbished Mercedes taxis were quite popular among the businessmen.

... but remember 20 or so years ago a car in Europe was thousands of pounds cheaper and companies woud bring them in from the continent and sell them on to us Islanders...

This reply is a bit OT but if the UK government pulled its finger out and got us to drive on the right, like most of the world, car prices could in theory drop even lower.

When I used to do a lot of business in Denmark they would tell me that there cars were actually the cheapest in Europe before the government then stuck a registration tax of 180% on them. Last year this was reduced to 160%. I seem to remember that importing a 'used' car was cheaper, used meaning something like 10 years and 250,000km. Refurbished Mercedes taxis were quite popular among the businessmen.

Many years ago when a friend and I were broke and in search of money and adventure we hatched a plan to buy a car in the UK and drive it to India. At the time India had massive import duties and only a small supply of crappy outdated cars produced locally. Western produced cars could sell for seven or eight times what they were worth here - and of the course the border was porous and corrupt. Never happened in the end...

This reply is a bit OT but if the UK government pulled its finger out and got us to drive on the right, like most of the world, car prices could in theory drop even lower.

Hmm.. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and of course Japan and a host of others, probably more than you would think.

http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/list-of-left-driving-countries/

When Japanese cars first started arriving in the UK in the sixties I was told that they could sell them cheaply to us because we drove on the left and there were no conversion costs..

I'm in the "don't know" camp at the moment. I am not into politics. I don't feel informed enough to be trusted with a vote. I hear what sound like lies and exaggeration from both sides. I've watched Brexit the movie on YouTube and even acknowledging that it is clearly one sided' date=' the facts about how the EU is run make me not want to be part of it. But then if you want to be out it seems like you are siding with Farage and all the loonies. Then I hear Michael Moore saying we should look to our European neighbours like France, Italy and Portugal as great things are happening there for normal working people (their T&Cs are apparently amongst the best in the world) and I think yes I want to be part of that. I think I'm leaning towards remain, because even if the EU has some obvious flaws, I don't feel like life in the UK in 2016 is really that bad. We've been in the club for a long time now and we seem to have done just fine. On the other hand... all that public money lining the pockets of EU bureaucrats!! Its not a simple choice to make.[/quote']

 

All of the above is fair comment I think.

 

It is my hope that innately cautious people (such as yourself) form a large percentage of this crucial 'don't know' group that represents what seems to be the last chance that common sense will still prevail on Thursday. That it truth is not much of a hope because the polls look unremitingly bleak for Remain supporters right now and time is running out fast.

 

But this is a 'straw' I must cling onto because otherwise our nation stands on the brink of economic disaster I fear.

See the Swiss have formally withdrawn their application to join the EU. Saying only nutters may want to

amazing that a small country is not falling over themselves to join the club

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

So we have Iceland (withdrawn), Norway (frozen), Switzerland (withdrawn), Netherlands (sort of) and UK (potentially) all looking to break free, and Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo all lining up to join.

I'm sure that's just a geographic coincidence, and that if we stay there's no risk and nothing at all will change.

See the Swiss have formally withdrawn their application to join the EU. Saying only nutters may want to

 

amazing that a small country is not falling over themselves to join the club

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

Yet interestingly Switzerland, Iceland and Norway are full members of the Schengen accord with all the movement of people that goes with it.

Yet interestingly Switzerland, Iceland and Norway are full members of the Schengen accord with all the movement of people that goes with it.

if that suits them, marvellous

See the Swiss have formally withdrawn their application to join the EU. Saying only nutters may want to

 

amazing that a small country is not falling over themselves to join the club

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

I've just noticed where that link originates. According to Wikipedia FWIW:

'RT has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government and its foreign policy by news reporters, including former RT reporters. RT has also been accused of spreading disinformation. The United Kingdom media regulator, Ofcom, has repeatedly found RT to have breached rules on impartiality, and of broadcasting "materially misleading" content. RT states that it offers a Russian perspective on global events.'

Not that anything they say is untruthful or inaccurate, of course.

 

Not that anything they say is untruthful or inaccurate, of course.

well, it is true what RT are saying. the Swiss say only nutters would want to join the EU

well, it is true what RT are saying. the Swiss say only nutters would want to join the EU

One person from Schaffhausen did which is hardly the whole of Switzerland.

That's one part of the remain argument that winds me up. We will not leave a market of 508 million, when 64 million of this 508 are in the UK. 444 million fair enough, but 508 million is complete bull.

I understand you frustration I am sick of hearing about £350m a week because it is a claim repeated endlessly in Vote Leave’s campaign material for our Eu contribution

The figure simply comes from taking Britain’s gross annual contribution to the EU’s finances and dividing it by 52.

That gross figure was £18.3bn in 2014/15, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which works out at just under £352m a week.

But just looking at the gross contribution doesn’t tell the whole story, because we get about half of the money back.

About half of this £9bn or so is returned via the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, and the rest comes in the form of payments to Britain from various EU pots like the European Agriculture Fund for Rural Development.

Although the Washington posts 508 million for the population of the EU it is does not mention the size of the single market which as you say contains us at present

The single market also includes Switzerland Norway Iceland and possibly Croatia in the future they have a population of about 19m whilst our population is 65m

So without us the single market will have about 460 million consumers quite a sizeable non tariff market

Official campaigning has been halted until Tuesday

to be fair...nearly, if not ALL probably know how they will vote or have already voted

One person from Schaffhausen did which is hardly the whole of Switzerland.

I find this interesting

http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-referendum-look-before-you-leap-norways-pm-tells-brexiteers/

Official campaigning has been halted until Tuesday

to be fair...nearly, if not ALL probably know how they will vote or have already voted

You make an interesting point but for those who have not voted there are a significant number who will change their vote if other Referendums around the world are anything to go by they return to the status quo that is why the odds at the bookmakers dont support out despite the polls apparently but by this time next week we will know and hopefully have a new manager.

I agree with your posts about Wanyama he has done well for us and fully deserves a move to CL football

I understand you frustration I am sick of hearing about £350m a week because it is a claim repeated endlessly in Vote Leave’s campaign material for our Eu contribution

 

The figure simply comes from taking Britain’s gross annual contribution to the EU’s finances and dividing it by 52.

 

That gross figure was £18.3bn in 2014/15, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which works out at just under £352m a week.

 

But just looking at the gross contribution doesn’t tell the whole story, because we get about half of the money back.

 

About half of this £9bn or so is returned via the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, and the rest comes in the form of payments to Britain from various EU pots like the European Agriculture Fund for Rural Development.

The most depressing thing about the notorious '£350m' lie is that survey evidence shows that a majority of the British public actually believe it now. Sickening isn't it? I can only take this is proof that by shamelessly repeating a lie it can somehow gain a kind of spurious 'currency' regardless of the real facts of the matter.

I can already see Colonel Blimp chipping in with the inevitable "well David Cameron said this or David Cameron said that" type of excuse for this egregious behaviour - as if two wrongs added up to a right in his mind.

Tuesday is the Wembley debate right? That's going to be absolute carnage.

The most depressing thing about the notorious '£350m' lie is that survey evidence shows that a majority of the British public actually believe it now. Sickening isn't it? I can only take this is proof that by shamelessly repeating a lie it can somehow gain a kind of spurious 'currency' regardless of the real facts of the matter.

 

I can already see Colonel Blimp chipping in with the inevitable "well David Cameron said this or David Cameron said that" type of excuse for this egregious behaviour - as if two wrongs added up to a right in his mind.

Could we as a country if we wished, next week say, not send a single penny of this "£350m"?

The craziest thing is seeing the likes of Batman and the Owner/Operator of Sotonians campaigning for the same thing.

Could we as a country if we wished, next week say, not send a single penny of this "£350m"?

Whatever the outcome of Thursday's vote this nation will still be a member state of the EU next week - and for years to come in reality. Therefore, I expect we shall continue to pay our negotiated EU 'membership fee' as agreed to by HMG.

Whatever the outcome of Thursday's vote this nation will still be a member state of the EU next week - and for years to come in reality. Therefore, I expect we shall continue to pay our negotiated EU 'membership fee' as agreed to by HMG.

So we do send £350m every week then

Could we as a country if we wished, next week say, not send a single penny of this "£350m"?

No.

So we do send £350m every week then

Eh?

So we do send £350m every week then

Yes and they are banning "pints" and all bananas are being straightened.

Yes and they are banning "pints" and all bananas are being straightened.

Maybe, but....

£130 million - The value of fish dumped annually under the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.

The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain more than £3.7 billion per year caused through the EU depriving the UK of its fishing grounds.

Dr Lee Rotherham: 'The EU's Common Fisheries Policy has cost British coastal communities 115,000 jobs'.

In 1970 there were 21,443 fishermen in the UK, by 2012 that figure had been cut back to just 12,445 because of the EU's CFP.

The Royal Mail is now sold because of EU Postal Directive 2008/6/EC.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6% - it is now 5.4%.

Europhiles say we must stay in the EU to save jobs. But we have seen thousands of jobs go in Fishing, Ford, Steel etc whilst being in EU?

The high energy costs of EU environmental legislation have closed down the UK's aluminium smelters and is threatening the cement industry.

Ford Transit factory in Southampton closed down causing job losses because Ford moved to (non EU) Turkey with the help of £80m EU funding.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

In 2010, RBS (British taxpayer owned) lent money to Kraft to buy Cadbury's who then moved the jobs out of the UK to Poland.

Tate & Lyle Sugars London says its production has fallen due to the EU's regulation which favours beet sugar rather than cane sugar.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

The EU's Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive has caused 25% of our Hedge Fund Industry to leave London to Switzerland/Singapore.

The Michelin tyre factory in Ballymena, County Antrim, is to close in 2018 with the loss of 860 jobs due to high EU energy costs.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Lincolnshire Council refused to give a tax break to Tata Steel saying a discount on their business rates would be illegal under EU law.

Tata Steel cuts 720 jobs blaming 'cripplingly high electricity costs' caused by EU Green Taxes. (Guardian, 16/07/2015)

Obama is trying to stop Brexit because it means the UK won't be involved in TTIP.

The EU's Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will see the privatisation of the NHS.

TTIP will bring European disintegration, unemployment and instability. (Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University)

TTIP will lead to the direct loss of over 680,000 jobs in the EU. (Report commissioned by the EU from the CEPR in London)

€114 million is spent every year to move the EU Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg every month. (The European Court of Auditors)

Want to help the poor in developing countries? Scrap the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

The EU imposes heavy taxes on imports from Africa stopping African countries trading their way out of poverty.

Britain handed control of British food regulation to the EU - Regulation (EC) 178/2002.

By allowing a open door to thousands of unskilled EU migrants we are now forced to turn away skilled migrants from other parts of the world.

Housing is affected by mass immigration since an increase in demand without a increase in supply will drive up both rents and house prices.

The Department of Business has estimated that it will cost the UK £22bn to meet the EU's 2020 energy targets.

If the UK fails to recycle 50 per cent of household waste by 2020 it could face fines from Brussels in excess of £500,000 a day.

Energy prices in the EU increased by 40% from 2006 to 2014.

EU renewable energy rules will double electricity bills by 2020.

The 100 most costly EU Directives will cumulatively cost the UK a staggering £184 billion by 2020. (Open Europe

The EU landed Britain with a £15m fine because it ruled that the UK did not charge enough duty on shipments of garlic from China.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

The UK contributes €570k to the EU's border agency (Frontex) despite not being a member of the Schengen Area.

'EU fines UK £642m for poor accounting'. While the European Co clean urt of Auditors has failed to give the EU a bill of health for 19 years.

Endlessly trawling pro-Bretix websites seems to have become the sole route to truth and enlightenment on here now ... let's face it, this is certainly a sight easier than coming up with anything original and no mistake!

Maybe, but....

 

£130 million - The value of fish dumped annually under the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.

 

The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain more than £3.7 billion per year caused through the EU depriving the UK of its fishing grounds.

 

Dr Lee Rotherham: 'The EU's Common Fisheries Policy has cost British coastal communities 115,000 jobs'.

 

In 1970 there were 21,443 fishermen in the UK, by 2012 that figure had been cut back to just 12,445 because of the EU's CFP.

 

The Royal Mail is now sold because of EU Postal Directive 2008/6/EC.

 

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6% - it is now 5.4%.

 

Europhiles say we must stay in the EU to save jobs. But we have seen thousands of jobs go in Fishing, Ford, Steel etc whilst being in EU?

 

The high energy costs of EU environmental legislation have closed down the UK's aluminium smelters and is threatening the cement industry.

 

Ford Transit factory in Southampton closed down causing job losses because Ford moved to (non EU) Turkey with the help of £80m EU funding.

 

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

 

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

 

In 2010, RBS (British taxpayer owned) lent money to Kraft to buy Cadbury's who then moved the jobs out of the UK to Poland.

 

Tate & Lyle Sugars London says its production has fallen due to the EU's regulation which favours beet sugar rather than cane sugar.

 

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

 

The EU's Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive has caused 25% of our Hedge Fund Industry to leave London to Switzerland/Singapore.

 

The Michelin tyre factory in Ballymena, County Antrim, is to close in 2018 with the loss of 860 jobs due to high EU energy costs.

 

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

 

Lincolnshire Council refused to give a tax break to Tata Steel saying a discount on their business rates would be illegal under EU law.

 

Tata Steel cuts 720 jobs blaming 'cripplingly high electricity costs' caused by EU Green Taxes. (Guardian, 16/07/2015)

 

Obama is trying to stop Brexit because it means the UK won't be involved in TTIP.

 

The EU's Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will see the privatisation of the NHS.

 

TTIP will bring European disintegration, unemployment and instability. (Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University)

 

TTIP will lead to the direct loss of over 680,000 jobs in the EU. (Report commissioned by the EU from the CEPR in London)

 

€114 million is spent every year to move the EU Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg every month. (The European Court of Auditors)

 

Want to help the poor in developing countries? Scrap the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

 

The EU imposes heavy taxes on imports from Africa stopping African countries trading their way out of poverty.

 

Britain handed control of British food regulation to the EU - Regulation (EC) 178/2002.

 

By allowing a open door to thousands of unskilled EU migrants we are now forced to turn away skilled migrants from other parts of the world.

 

Housing is affected by mass immigration since an increase in demand without a increase in supply will drive up both rents and house prices.

 

The Department of Business has estimated that it will cost the UK £22bn to meet the EU's 2020 energy targets.

 

If the UK fails to recycle 50 per cent of household waste by 2020 it could face fines from Brussels in excess of £500,000 a day.

 

Energy prices in the EU increased by 40% from 2006 to 2014.

 

EU renewable energy rules will double electricity bills by 2020.

 

The 100 most costly EU Directives will cumulatively cost the UK a staggering £184 billion by 2020. (Open Europe

 

The EU landed Britain with a £15m fine because it ruled that the UK did not charge enough duty on shipments of garlic from China.

 

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

 

The UK contributes €570k to the EU's border agency (Frontex) despite not being a member of the Schengen Area.

 

'EU fines UK £642m for poor accounting'. While the European Co clean urt of Auditors has failed to give the EU a bill of health for 19 years.

I won't bother contesting all of these but two stand out for me.

I know the Harwich route very well and the EU directive affects all shipping in the channel and the North Sea and is a measure to improve the environment through the restriction on sulphur in marine diesel. DFDS closed this route because it was an old ship and the route was losing money. Brittany Ferries has upgraded all its ships operating in the Channel. To say that the EU closed this route is deliberately misleading.

The bit about the auditors is absolute nonsense. 'Clean bill of health'? Nothing more than trivial discrepancies would be a more accurate description.

It's this sort of absolute hogwash that really makes me angry and I despair, really despair for the future of Britain. I'm only surprised that there are enough gullible people out there that fall for this nonsense. Where on earth did you dig it up from? At the very least you should put a name to its source so that the rest of us can know who to heap the scorn upon. Anonymous drivel is easy to copy and paste.

 

£130 million - The value of fish dumped annually under the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.

Out of date. All caught fish must be landed. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fisheries-discard-ban-starts The reason for the discards ban was primarily because of high grading, especially by the British fleet. High grading is where fishing boats dump less valuable fish overboard to create hold space and then go and catch more. That practice, which is cheating, has helped destroy stocks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/two-british-trawlers-escorted-into-cork-after-arrest-off-kerry-1.2101295

 

 

The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain more than £3.7 billion per year caused through the EU depriving the UK of its fishing grounds.

Given the total EU wide catch is only worth £4.9bn and Spain has far larger waters thats pretty amazing. Britain's catch in 2014 was worth £845m from the EU's second largest fleet despite having only the third largest waters . How exactly have we lost £3.7bn pa unless you think all fish in the whole of EU from the Baltic and Mediterranean to the Canaries and Azores are ours? The figure is clearly nonsense. British catches peaked in 1914 and have been in decline since. We messed up our fisheries, no-one else. Fishing is actually a small industry. Worldwide total dockside revenues are only £46bn, by comparison oil & gas is c£800bn. Source Marine Management Organisation, UK Sea Fisheries Statistics 2014.

 

Watching Farage's little Thames fleet protesting about foreign boats was amusing. All but two of the vessels present were inshore coastal boats, incapable and unlicensed for deep sea. British coastal waters up to six miles are reserved exclusively for British boats and from 7-12 miles foreign boats are very highly restricted - coastal waters are where most of the fish are. One of the two deep sea trawlers present was at the centre of a £63m illegal fishing fraud - so the whole charade was more UKIP horse****.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/farages-brexit-flotilla-boat-involved-in-63-million-fishing-fraud-a7083231.html

 

In 1970 there were 21,443 fishermen in the UK, by 2012 that figure had been cut back to just 12,445 because of the EU's CFP.

 

Dr Lee Rotherham the linguist with no experience of fisheries or economics? Why didnt he point out the trend - that in 1934 there 48,000 people employed but by the time we joined the EU that had dropped to 21,000 and since we joined the EU its fallen at a slower rate? It fell for two reasons, the British fleet destroyed British stocks, mainly by overfishing using bottom trawling. Catches peaked in 1914, over 100 years ago. Parts of the North Sea are threshed seven times a year. How much food would you get from a field if you dragged a steel bar and net across it seven times a year and took all life from it, knocking down nursery habitat and fish food sources as you go? Remember the Cod Wars? - that was about Britain's right to mess up Iceland's waters too. The Icelanders won and have properly managed their stocks - which is why they still have cod and the North Sea mostly doesnt. Secondly vessels have got bigger and more mechanised so although fishing boat tonnage has been largely steady the number of boats and people needed to crew them has declined - as it has in other industrialised countries.

 

Fake claims on issues you dont understand. I work in fisheries so I'll just deal with those.[/color]

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

Not according to Autocar, ( and if they do end up moving production to Slovakia, they are in the EU ); http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-land-rover-defender-due-2019

 

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2015/12/09/vauxhall-signs-procurement-deal-with-28-police-forces-for-fleet-cars

"28 UK Police forces have signed the UK's largest ever emergency vehicle procurement deal for the supply of more than 3,000 vehicles over the next two years.

The group tender includes the supply of cars from Vauxhall, Volvo and BMW, as well as Ford and Vauxhall vans."

 

'EU fines UK £642m for poor accounting'. While the European Court of Auditors has failed to give the EU a bill of health for 19 years.

The European Court of Auditors (ECA), an EU body set up to examine the accounts of the Union, signed off on the 2014 accounts as reliable—something it's done for every set of figures since 2007. But it did find that payments made were materially affected by error. ( https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/ )

You really should read a bit more widely.

Maybe, but....

 

£130 million - The value of fish dumped annually under the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.

 

The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain more than £3.7 billion per year caused through the EU depriving the UK of its fishing grounds.

 

Dr Lee Rotherham: 'The EU's Common Fisheries Policy has cost British coastal communities 115,000 jobs'.

 

In 1970 there were 21,443 fishermen in the UK, by 2012 that figure had been cut back to just 12,445 because of the EU's CFP.

 

The Royal Mail is now sold because of EU Postal Directive 2008/6/EC.

 

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6% - it is now 5.4%.

 

Europhiles say we must stay in the EU to save jobs. But we have seen thousands of jobs go in Fishing, Ford, Steel etc whilst being in EU?

 

The high energy costs of EU environmental legislation have closed down the UK's aluminium smelters and is threatening the cement industry.

 

Ford Transit factory in Southampton closed down causing job losses because Ford moved to (non EU) Turkey with the help of £80m EU funding.

 

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

 

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

 

In 2010, RBS (British taxpayer owned) lent money to Kraft to buy Cadbury's who then moved the jobs out of the UK to Poland.

 

Tate & Lyle Sugars London says its production has fallen due to the EU's regulation which favours beet sugar rather than cane sugar.

 

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

 

The EU's Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive has caused 25% of our Hedge Fund Industry to leave London to Switzerland/Singapore.

 

The Michelin tyre factory in Ballymena, County Antrim, is to close in 2018 with the loss of 860 jobs due to high EU energy costs.

 

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

 

Lincolnshire Council refused to give a tax break to Tata Steel saying a discount on their business rates would be illegal under EU law.

 

Tata Steel cuts 720 jobs blaming 'cripplingly high electricity costs' caused by EU Green Taxes. (Guardian, 16/07/2015)

 

Obama is trying to stop Brexit because it means the UK won't be involved in TTIP.

 

The EU's Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will see the privatisation of the NHS.

 

TTIP will bring European disintegration, unemployment and instability. (Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University)

 

TTIP will lead to the direct loss of over 680,000 jobs in the EU. (Report commissioned by the EU from the CEPR in London)

 

€114 million is spent every year to move the EU Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg every month. (The European Court of Auditors)

 

Want to help the poor in developing countries? Scrap the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

 

The EU imposes heavy taxes on imports from Africa stopping African countries trading their way out of poverty.

 

Britain handed control of British food regulation to the EU - Regulation (EC) 178/2002.

 

By allowing a open door to thousands of unskilled EU migrants we are now forced to turn away skilled migrants from other parts of the world.

 

Housing is affected by mass immigration since an increase in demand without a increase in supply will drive up both rents and house prices.

 

The Department of Business has estimated that it will cost the UK £22bn to meet the EU's 2020 energy targets.

 

If the UK fails to recycle 50 per cent of household waste by 2020 it could face fines from Brussels in excess of £500,000 a day.

 

Energy prices in the EU increased by 40% from 2006 to 2014.

 

EU renewable energy rules will double electricity bills by 2020.

 

The 100 most costly EU Directives will cumulatively cost the UK a staggering £184 billion by 2020. (Open Europe

 

The EU landed Britain with a £15m fine because it ruled that the UK did not charge enough duty on shipments of garlic from China.

 

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

 

The UK contributes €570k to the EU's border agency (Frontex) despite not being a member of the Schengen Area.

 

'EU fines UK £642m for poor accounting'. While the European Co clean urt of Auditors has failed to give the EU a bill of health for 19 years.

If that wasn't complete bull**** it might have been interesting.