EU referendum

first past the post = leave

 

70/30 referendum result in 2011 backed the principle of first past the post

That principle was for general elections. Whatever you might want this referendum was 'advisory' and not binding as was the one in 2011 where the outcome was written into the relevant Act. Advisory in the sense that it is up to parliament to interpret and implement its result. That is the stage at which the actual democracy takes place.

Hmmmm

 

immediate family

Falkands war

Gulf War 1

Op Banner (you should know what that is) 4 tours

 

 

Me, Afghanistan, Iraq and Gulf war 2. Operations in north Africa plus oodles of other shyt I simply cannot say on here and still doing it

 

 

next question?

I, for one, have always respected you for your service.

What I find difficult to understand is that everyone had the opportunity to vote, some did , some didn't

Those that did accepted the right to vote in a UK referendum, it wasn't a referendum for individual countries or areas or regions or age groups, it was a referendum for all.

The Scots had the opportunity to leave the UK but decided to stay and thereby accepted that they could have decisions that affect them decided elsewhere by not just the English but the Welsh and Irish.

The principle was simple , in or out, remain or leave, the biggest pile of ballot papers wins and we reaffirmed that in 2011

We need to forget who voted this way or that , there's a new game to be played the old game lasted 40 years and that games over, so strike up the new game , be glass half full and look at it as an opportunity not a missed opportunity

Last seasons finished look forward to the new season the new team , the team last year made decisions that cost us points, but likewise they made decisions that led to the highest finishing place in our Premier history, who's to say we won't do better next season , and the UK well look at it as a new season

Sorry to disappoint you but the choice is not ours. This will be a take it or leave it situation.

Are the Brexiters aware of that ?

What I find difficult to understand is that everyone had the opportunity to vote, some did , some didn't

Those that did accepted the right to vote in a UK referendum, it wasn't a referendum for individual countries or areas or regions or age groups, it was a referendum for all.

 

The Scots had the opportunity to leave the UK but decided to stay and thereby accepted that they could have decisions that affect them decided elsewhere by not just the English but the Welsh and Irish.

 

The principle was simple , in or out, remain or leave, the biggest pile of ballot papers wins and we reaffirmed that in 2011

 

We need to forget who voted this way or that , there's a new game to be played the old game lasted 40 years and that games over, so strike up the new game , be glass half full and look at it as an opportunity not a missed opportunity

Last seasons finished look forward to the new season the new team , the team last year made decisions that cost us points, but likewise they made decisions that led to the highest finishing place in our Premier history, who's to say we won't do better next season , and the UK well look at it as a new season

It's not that simple ringwood. This has consequences. Each region has different desires/ requirements. For some English towns and regions this was all about immigration. For smaller poorer regions Scotland and NI European subsidies keep our economies afloat. I know that your concerns and mine may be very different which is why in hindsight an in/out question is not nuanced enough to cover all our requirements.

I know only from my own experience that the possible creation if a new hard immigration customs post on our now open border will have terrible psychological implications.

All the idiots need is that slight instability to open Pandora's box. Even after our ****ing contest I am sure Batman can see that with his experience here.

Over 18 years we have built an evolving peace with the EU as a protective and effective cooperative third party in that. Removing that creates a vacuum.

Already McGuiness is calling for a border poll. These issues were not highlighted as possible consequences of Brexit. I understand the majority of English/Scottish/Welsh either don't care or didn't consider it but it is very much now a possibility.

This was my reasoning for voting remain and I feel that within the EU gives us better stability. I say this as a true unionist.

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Boris has surfaced again.

It's not that simple ringwood. This has consequences. Each region has different desires/ requirements. For some English towns and regions this was all about immigration. For smaller poorer regions Scotland and NI European subsidies keep our economies afloat. I know that your concerns and mine may be very different which is why in hindsight an in/out question is not nuanced enough to cover all our requirements.

 

I know only from my own experience that the possible creation if a new hard immigration customs post on our now open border will have terrible psychological implications.

 

All the idiots need is that slight instability to open Pandora's box. Even after our ****ing contest I am sure Batman can see that with his experience here.

 

Over 18 years we have built an evolving peace with the EU as a protective and effective cooperative third party in that. Removing that creates a vacuum.

 

Already McGuiness is calling for a border poll. These issues were not highlighted as possible consequences of Brexit. I understand the majority of English/Scottish/Welsh either don't care or didn't consider it but it is very much now a possibility.

 

This was my reasoning for voting remain and I feel that within the EU gives us better stability. I say this as a true unionist.

 

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Good post

Boris has surfaced again.

 

Brilliant.

You won, suck it up.

Gove's wife asking for help, and, wait for it "expertise". From, presumably, experts.

Iannucci couldn't make this stuff up.

Lots of lovely racist incidents being reported today.

Children at school being told to go back where they came from, Polish nationals being threatened in the street.

Leave won, fair enough, but insular nationalism is an ugly thing. What's the view of the leave brigade here?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

This is quite something.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037

Boris Johnson says the UK will continue to "intensify" cooperation with the EU following its vote to leave the EU.

The leading pro-Leave campaigner said exit supporters must accept the 52-48 result was "not entirely overwhelming".

I voted Brexit but make no mistake, this isn't over. I reckon there's still a good 25% chance we'll end up staying.

Lots of lovely racist incidents being reported today.

Children at school being told to go back where they came from, Polish nationals being threatened in the street.

Leave won, fair enough, but insular nationalism is an ugly thing. What's the view of the leave brigade here?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

So otherwise perfectly sane, rational and compassionate people suddenly transformed into a bunch of racist scum****s purely on account of the referendum result did they?

I mean, what's even being argued here? That we have to submit our own democracy to the control of a federal European superstate in order to somehow subdue the odd racist twerp from doing something racist and twerpy? Or that staying in the EU would have prevented this sort of stuff from happening?

Load of old tosh.

So otherwise perfectly sane, rational and compassionate people suddenly transformed into a bunch of racist scum****s purely on account of the referendum result did they?

 

I mean, what's even being argued here? That we have to submit our own democracy to the control of a federal European superstate in order to somehow subdue the odd racist twerp from doing something racist and twerpy? Or that staying in the EU would have prevented this sort of stuff from happening?

 

Load of old tosh.

What's being argued is that a significant proportion of the 52% voted purely on the basis of perceived immigration issues, and a vocal section of those now feel empowered enough to voice openly racist views in public.

Like it or not your 'vote for autonomy' was a proxy for a racist sentiment, albeit from a minority.

Unless you think the reports are all bollöcks?

I reckon there's still a good 25% chance we'll end up staying.

Either that or some face saving fig leaf fudge based on the Norway model. Nothing substantive will change, except as a country we've blown our credibility.

The principle was simple , in or out, remain or leave, the biggest pile of ballot papers wins and we reaffirmed that in 2011

2011 is irrelevant. This was not an election it was a referendum. The enabling Act did not specify that the result was binding. It could have but it didn't.

Some of the lefties on here need to take a long hard look at themselves. Pouring scorn on the less well educated is quite frankly disgusting. I thought you were all about looking out for the less well off and less fortunate?

 

Instead of standing up for them or at least being sympathetic to the fact that they are less fortunate than you, you belittle them. You're not socialists with your intellectual prejudice, you're just inverted tories with a different type of snobbery. I feel sorry for the working class with you ****s looking out for them.

Its never too late for anyone to get an education.

Its never too late for anyone to get an education.

Johnny B is too busy.

The best part of his rant was in assuming Remains criticism of general thickery and ignorance was all directed at working class people. Thats his predjudice coming out, not Remain's.

What's being argued is that a significant proportion of the 52% voted purely on the basis of perceived immigration issues, and a vocal section of those now feel empowered enough to voice openly racist views in public.

Like it or not your 'vote for autonomy' was a proxy for a racist sentiment, albeit from a minority.

 

Unless you think the reports are all bollöcks?

Somebody should point out that Boris Johnson was born in New York.

This is quite something.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037I reckon there's still a good 25% chance we'll end up staying.

Reading those quotes, I'd put it at 75%! Looks like Boris has just a bit of twiddling with legislation in mind ... The article comes with Boris hanging out of his car window in true saggy chops style. No doubt trying to find reverse gear as quickly as possible.

Some of the lefties on here need to take a long hard look at themselves. Pouring scorn on the less well educated is quite frankly disgusting. I thought you were all about looking out for the less well off and less fortunate?

 

Instead of standing up for them or at least being sympathetic to the fact that they are less fortunate than you, you belittle them. You're not socialists with your intellectual prejudice, you're just inverted tories with a different type of snobbery. I feel sorry for the working class with you ****s looking out for them.

Time for your bed. School in morning.

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Its never too late for anyone to get an education.

I am fortunate enough to have one, but that doesn't give me the right to look down on someone less fortunate, unlike some so called "progressives"

Johnny B is too busy.

 

The best part of his rant was in assuming Remains criticism of general thickery and ignorance was all directed at working class people. Thats his predjudice coming out, not Remain's.

Considering working class kids are 3 times less likely to go to Uni, even with good enough grades, means that it is not a difficult conclusion to draw. If you attack the "uneducated", you are inadvertently attacking the working class.

Time for your bed. School in morning.

 

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Night night. Sweet dreams xxx

Sturgeon is chief minister by consensus as leader of a minority party as there is no party with a majority, The Scottish Parliament doesn't have the power to veto. It has devolved powers from the UK parliament which I suppose could be withdrawn and power returned to Westminster as happened with NI in the past.

I think it's about time that wee Jimmy Crankie should realise that if the last Scottish election had been a referendum on the SNP, of the total electorate of 4,093,481, 64.5% - almost two-thirds - of eligible voters in Scotland did NOT vote for the SNP. This hasn't stopped this horrible little gob sh!t claiming she speaks for Scotland.

I think it's about time that wee Jimmy Crankie should realise that if the last Scottish election had been a referendum on the SNP, of the total electorate of 4,093,481, 64.5% - almost two-thirds - of eligible voters in Scotland did NOT vote for the SNP. This hasn't stopped this horrible little gob sh!t claiming she speaks for Scotland.

Fantastic! 63.5% of the electorate didnt vote for Brexit. That must mean its void.

Fantastic! 63.5% of the electorate didnt vote for Brexit. That must mean its void.

I have consistently maintained that for a constitutional change there should be a much bigger margin than 50%. If not then the outrage will continue as Farage stated well before the vote..

Fantastic! 63.5% of the electorate didnt vote for Brexit. That must mean its void.

It's unusual of somebody of your intelligence to not realise the clear distinction between a referendum where there is a choice between just two options and an election where there were several options available to the electorate because there were several party/candidate choices. I note that Whitey Granddad had also concluded that 63.5% of the electorate didn't vote for Brexit, but a clear majority did and it cannot be taken for granted that those voters who did not bother to vote would have voted to remain, can it?

It's unusual of somebody of your intelligence to not realise the clear distinction between a referendum where there is a choice between just two options and an election where there were several options available to the electorate because there were several party/candidate choices. I note that Whitey Granddad had also concluded that 63.5% of the electorate didn't vote for Brexit, but a clear majority did and it cannot be taken for granted that those voters who did not bother to vote would have voted to remain, can it?

Its not unusual for a poster of your intelligence to misunderstand what was written. He drew a parallel with the referendum, I did likewise.

It's unusual of somebody of your intelligence to not realise the clear distinction between a referendum where there is a choice between just two options and an election where there were several options available to the electorate because there were several party/candidate choices. I note that Whitey Granddad had also concluded that 63.5% of the electorate didn't vote for Brexit, but a clear majority did and it cannot be taken for granted that those voters who did not bother to vote would have voted to remain, can it?

The big difference between a referendum and an election is that the former is advisory and the second definitive. The enabling act for this one did not make the result compulsory. It is up to parliament to implement and interpret 'the will of the people' which in this instance is not decisively clear majority. Farage said this before and Boris has said it yesterday.

If we don't agree a deal with the EU we are out two years after triggering Article 50 with no strings attached but still free to trade with anybody and free to deny entry to anybody. Probably the best way to go. A complete break. If Germany want to sell to us they will and vice versa. Tariffs if necessary. The EU I believe has no trade deal with the US, India, China but it doesn't stop trade. And they don't pay the EU or have free movement. The EU sells more to us than we do to them.

If we don't agree a deal with the EU we are out two years after triggering Article 50 with no strings attached but still free to trade with anybody and free to deny entry to anybody. Probably the best way to go. A complete break. If Germany want to sell to us they will and vice versa. Tariffs if necessary. The EU I believe has no trade deal with the US, India, China but it doesn't stop trade. And they don't pay the EU or have free movement. The EU sells more to us than we do to them.

Unbelievable arrogance. Do you have any idea how international trade works? Do you know how much these tariffs are?

To be precise the FTSE 250 and property trusts are down 8-9%. Unlike the FTSE 100, those companies are smaller and much more domestically focussed.

FTSE 250 ended 2% down on friday.

If we don't agree a deal with the EU we are out two years after triggering Article 50 with no strings attached but still free to trade with anybody and free to deny entry to anybody. Probably the best way to go. A complete break. If Germany want to sell to us they will and vice versa. Tariffs if necessary. The EU I believe has no trade deal with the US, India, China but it doesn't stop trade. And they don't pay the EU or have free movement. The EU sells more to us than we do to them.

#tiredofexperts

Unbelievable arrogance. Do you have any idea how international trade works? Do you know how much these tariffs are?

Enlighten me. How could you know what tariffs if any there would be in 2018 and beyond.

FTSE 250 ended 2% down on friday.

No it didn't. You may want to check your facts before embarrassing yourself further, pal.

#tiredofexperts

"A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom."

Ah of course, UKIP's Suzanne Evans's very simple biased and quite simply naive propaganda post

http://exposingukip.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/suzanne-evans-is-posting-propaganda-and.html

Its not unusual for a poster of your intelligence to misunderstand what was written. He drew a parallel with the referendum, I did likewise.

Who did? You and Whitey, or GM? I don't dispute what GM says, but you and Whitey seemed to indicate that there is some validity in the argument that in the case of a referendum of only two options, that there is a case to be made that there should perhaps be a majority of the entire electorate, rather than a simple majority of those who can be bothered to vote.

Enlighten me. How could you know what tariffs if any there would be in 2018 and beyond.

If the EU don't offer an arrangement that we can agree to the we fall back on WTO rules. We have no say in what they will offer, it is purely take it or leave it.

If this doesn't convince you of the need for EU access then it should: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4CmUmF1BC

"A WTO analysis had calculated the cost of the additional tariffs on goods imports to British consumers at £9bn, while British merchandise exports would be subject to a further £5.5bn in tariffs at their destination."

This from February: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf

This from the Leavers themselves: http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

And: http://www.freshfields.com/en/global/Britain_and_the_EU/home/

And finally the Telegraph from 14th June: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/what-would-brexit-mean-for-british-trade/

These WTO tariffs range from 32 per cent on wine, to 4.1 per cent on liquefied natural gas, with items like cars (9.8 per cent) and wheat products (12.8 per cent) somewhere in between.

If the EU don't offer an arrangement that we can agree to the we fall back on WTO rules. We have no say in what they will offer, it is purely take it or leave it.

 

If this doesn't convince you of the need for EU access then it should: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4CmUmF1BC

 

"A WTO analysis had calculated the cost of the additional tariffs on goods imports to British consumers at £9bn, while British merchandise exports would be subject to a further £5.5bn in tariffs at their destination."

 

 

This from February: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf

 

This from the Leavers themselves: http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

 

And: http://www.freshfields.com/en/global/Britain_and_the_EU/home/

 

And finally the Telegraph from 14th June: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/what-would-brexit-mean-for-british-trade/

 

These WTO tariffs range from 32 per cent on wine, to 4.1 per cent on liquefied natural gas, with items like cars (9.8 per cent) and wheat products (12.8 per cent) somewhere in between.

It's very likely that WTO rules would have to be negotiated from scratch -the UK won't be able to cut and paste the terms and agreements that were signed on its behalf by the EU.

Who did? You and Whitey, or GM? I don't dispute what GM says, but you and Whitey seemed to indicate that there is some validity in the argument that in the case of a referendum of only two options, that there is a case to be made that there should perhaps be a majority of the entire electorate, rather than a simple majority of those who can be bothered to vote.

Yes, I certainly did for decisions which involve a major constitutional change. As is the case in many countries, for example Australia has compulsory voting and:

'Any alteration to the Consitution must be approved by a 'double majority', that is:

a national majority of electors (more than half the voters in Australia must vote YES); and

a majority of electors in a majority of the States (i.e. at least four of the six) (more than half the voters in more than half the States must vote YES)'

And a discussion here about Ecuador: http://aceproject.org/electoral-advice/archive/questions/replies/572011840

Now I am well aware that we are neither of these countries but British democracy does not have a tradition of holding referendums for major decisions. The practicality of the situation is that Parliament is sovereign and has to make the ultimate decision. From what I had heard before the referendum many people did not have a clear idea about what they were voting for and were confused about the possible outcomes. Yes, one big clusterf*ck.

It's very likely that WTO rules would have to be negotiated from scratch -the UK won't be able to cut and paste the terms and agreements that were signed on its behalf by the EU.

Exactly. There are default terms but we don't want those, we definitely don't want those, so basically we shall have to wait and see what our friends in the EU are prepared to concede to us (if we have any friends left). As was suggested in an link in an earlier post the minute we invoke Article 50 we are fooked so unless we have a deal lined up we'd be stupid to do so and if we aren't offered a deal that we can live with there will be a Brexican standoff.

Exactly. There are default terms but we don't want those, we definitely don't want those, so basically we shall have to wait and see what our friends in the EU are prepared to concede to us (if we have any friends left). As was suggested in an link in an earlier post the minute we invoke Article 50 we are fooked so unless we have a deal lined up we'd be stupid to do so and if we aren't offered a deal that we can live with there will be a Brexican standoff.

However I do think that being seen to be trying to move forward with it all instead of leaving doubt and uncertainty to hover over everything for another 4 months or so may help us somewhat. Not sure that Cameron should have said I'll resign sometime or other in the next 4 months, really don't think that will help. If he's going he should just go and let someone else start organising whatever is to follow.

However I do think that being seen to be trying to move forward with it all instead of leaving doubt and uncertainty to hover over everything for another 4 months or so may help us somewhat. Not sure that Cameron should have said I'll resign sometime or other in the next 4 months, really don't think that will help. If he's going he should just go and let someone else start organising whatever is to follow.

We should be very grateful to him, he has bought us some much needed time. If we invoked Article 50 now before we have anything sorted then we really are dropping our pants and asking to get shafted.

I get really annoyed by ths 'moving forward, all working together' talk from those who have foisted this unbelievable situation on us. It's like smashing someone in the face and then saying to them 'right, now let's work together'. You've heaped a bloody great pile of extra costs and red tape on countless hard-working businessmen who were already struggling to recover from the recent recession and you've added to that an economic slump and you're "saying let's move forward". Do you have any idea of the damage that you've caused?

We should be very grateful to him, he has bought us some much needed time. If we invoked Article 50 now before we have anything sorted then we really are dropping our pants and asking to get shafted.

 

I get really annoyed by ths 'moving forward, all working together' talk from those who have foisted this unbelievable situation on us. It's like smashing someone in the face and then saying to them 'right, now let's work together'. You've heaped a bloody great pile of extra costs and red tape on countless hard-working businessmen who were already struggling to recover from the recent recession and you've added to that an economic slump and you're "saying let's move forward". Do you have any idea of the damage that you've caused?

In fact in EU Commission circles the betting seems to be roughly on never receiving a formal demand to leave the EU.

Probably totally misguided and only chatter but there it is. The sentiment is that we don't know what we're doing and have no one to do it even if we did. Watch this space.

NB. Don't get so assy with me, I have done nothing, as I said I was not eligible to vote. But for businesses it's probably best to get on with it and not allow the situation to fester and rot as the EU Commission seems to hope it will.

In fact in EU Commission circles the betting seems to be roughly on never receiving a formal demand to leave the EU.

Probably totally misguided and only chatter but there it is. The sentiment is that we don't know what we're doing and have no one to do it even if we did. Watch this space.

 

NB. Don't get so assy with me, I have done nothing, as I said I was not eligible to vote. But for businesses it's probably best to get on with it and not allow the situation to fester and rot as the EU Commission seems to hope it will.

No, sorry, that was unnecessary from me. It wasn't aimed at you in particular but there is a lot of real anger over here. Please accept my apologies.

By the way, which part of France do you live in? I have interests over there.

No, sorry, that was unnecessary from me. It wasn't aimed at you in particular but there is a lot of real anger over here. Please accept my apologies.

 

By the way, which part of France do you live in? I have interests over there.

Forez, the hilly bit between St Etienne and Clermont Ferrand.

However I assure you that the tactic of the EU Commission (being a retired employée myself) is to try to make the situation rot and prove that the will of a sovereign people is nothing against the might of the EU.

They are miffed to their roots and expect to get their way as usual as they have with previous referendii. France 2005, the Greeks last year who rejected the EU austerity plan fairly massively (60/40) but got it anyway.

Their current attitude is like Inspector Harry saying Come on punk, make my day.

Forez, the hilly bit between St Etienne and Clermont Ferrand.

Looks pretty. Serious question, if a bit dumb. Why do most small French towns, unless they are heavily touristed, look half abandoned, even in high summer? Most houses seem to be shuttered during the day (even when its not the hot part of France) and few people on the streets. Go in a non supermarket shop / bar and you frequently are the only one there. It cant all be holiday homes.

Forez, the hilly bit between St Etienne and Clermont Ferrand.

 

However I assure you that the tactic of the EU Commission (being a retired employée myself) is to try to make the situation rot and prove that the will of a sovereign people is nothing against the might of the EU.

They are miffed to their roots and expect to get their way as usual as they have with previous referendii. France 2005, the Greeks last year who rejected the EU austerity plan fairly massively (60/40) but got it anyway.

 

Their current attitude is like Inspector Harry saying Come on punk, make my day.

Ah, thanks, we normally hack past you when we're driving up the A75.

It's always useful to get an insight from outside the insular world that is Britain and especially into the workings of the great bureaucracies. This can only end one way and it won't be very pretty for us. Either way we've made enemies and lost friends.

Looks pretty. Serious question, if a bit dumb. Why do most small French towns, unless they are heavily touristed, look half abandoned, even in high summer? Most houses seem to be shuttered during the day (even when its not the hot part of France) and few people on the streets. Go in a non supermarket shop / bar and you frequently are the only one there. It cant all be holiday homes.

That's because you live in an overcrowded country. Rural France is wonderfully quiet and peaceful. France is still the largest country in Europe even after German reunification although that may have passed to the Ukraine if you include the Crimea.

Looks pretty. Serious question, if a bit dumb. Why do most small French towns, unless they are heavily touristed, look half abandoned, even in high summer? Most houses seem to be shuttered during the day (even when its not the hot part of France) and few people on the streets. Go in a non supermarket shop / bar and you frequently are the only one there. It cant all be holiday homes.

Half of our village is holiday homes. There is little work and no public transport outside of the major populations centres. Also it's as cold as ...well you know in winter. Not much amenities nothing. We both worked in Lyon most of the time, had a small flat there for Monday through Thursday and came home at week-ends until we retired. Must say I miss Lyon.

Until you've actually lived in France for some time you cannot understand it's rurality and poverty in many senses.

Don't forget that we have 3.5 million in total unemployment and another 2 million underemployed, without counting all of those in training schemes and the like; 27% of our young people are unemployed and that figure probably rises to 35% of those who cannot leave rural areas.

Ah, thanks, we normally hack past you when we're driving up the A75.

 

I

Well 30 odd miles away anyway. Marvellous free motorway if you can be bothered to drop down to Millau and not be conned for the variable 7 to 10 euros for the viaduct.

That's because you live in an overcrowded country. Rural France is wonderfully quiet and peaceful. France is still the largest country in Europe even after German reunification although that may have passed to the Ukraine if you include the Crimea.

True if only we had some work we'd be able to take a lot of those European immigrants off you and help out..Well not the Roumanian beggars for sure but the qualified Poles and stuff. Unfortunately our social charges to pay for Mitterand's largesses make it unlikely.