Luggys Book

No you are totally right. Strachan was shyt. Hoddle was shyt. Jones was shyt. Souness was shyt. Lots and lots of shyt.

redknapp, gray, wigley, sturrock, burley.

throw in wotte, portvliet........got a lot better under pardew

we seem to have it bang on these days

Was he the last new Saints manager to win his first game in charge?

I am sure you know this but Lowe wanted Hoddle but the Board didn't agree. As for WGS mischief making, possibly but I don't think so. He gave Sturrock a glowing recommendation.

The Board did not agree because of protests by a vocal minority. That the Board did not canvass the quiet majority, who would have welcomed Hoddle back with open arms, was one of the most ridiculous and inept pieces of management ever !

Looking back on his entire career.. .his very short spell at SMS surely can't warrant more than just a couple of paragraphs?

 

.....will he blame his quick exit on poor results ..or Player Power?

IMO Luggy had lost the dressing room before he even walked into the stadium.

Not true. Were you even there? Results might not have been great but the football was pretty entertaining.

Not only that, he had a decent record here: something like 1.23 points per game, despite for much of the season he had many first teamers out injured.

But, apart from some pretty entertaining football and a respectable points record, he certainly was shite. His two games in charge during the relegation season (one win and one loss) were certainly what sent us down. Nothing Wigley or Saggy could do after that terrible start.

yeah i was there and saw the end result first hand at Plymouth

 

it was shyte. The football played at SMS was hardly his own. he was only here a few months

You were there? Blimey.

No doubt you remember the away performances at Wolves and Man City. The home games against Liverpool, Newcastle and Blackburn. Not exactly "shyte" those.

You were there? Blimey.

 

No doubt you remember the away performances at Wolves and Man City. The home games against Liverpool, Newcastle and Blackburn. Not exactly "shyte" those.

a few games hardly is his mould of football.

He was at plymouth for years. the football was dire. that was his football.

I doubt if pulis came in next week we would immediately become a long ball side. it would be drilled into us.

anywhere he has been for a worthwhile amount of time, he has produced awful football. Weds, Plymouth and everywhere else

even now, the great football star, who was on the rise when he came to us, has not won a game in 10 and sits in the relegation zone in league 2

IMO Luggy had lost the dressing room before he even walked into the stadium.

IMO Luggy had lost you before he even walked into the stadium

Didn't our decline begin under Strachan? I seem to remember we were very poor in his final months. Then Wigley came after Sturrock and he just couldn't get the results despite always seeming to come close. Sturrock was mediocre, but it's rewriting history to say he made us that bad.

Despite fingers being pointed at Beattie, I seem to remember it turning out to be Dodd who was sabotaging his reign, was that right?

You were there? Blimey. [emoji38]

 

No doubt you remember the away performances at Wolves and Man City. The home games against Liverpool, Newcastle and Blackburn. Not exactly "shyte" those.

Indeed, I remember Man City well, and the end of that season was great. A bit revisionist to suggest it was doom from the start. it wasn't.

His tenure was fine, he never actually got the chance to get going and he left quickly but without doing too much wrong. After two games he certainly wasn't to blame for relegation, I think the fu ckwit Wigley and the crook can take a bow for that.

Signed Crouch who became an excellent player for us.

He was appointed as an excellent lower league manager, much like the Dave Jones appointment but clearly didn't quite work out. Likely he wouldn't have taken us to the heights Gordon did but I liked him and still do. He went back to being an excellent lower league manager, although looks like his time is up at Yeovil.

Lots of re-writing of history going on here.

Poor bloke never stood a chance.

Didn't our decline begin under Strachan? I seem to remember we were very poor in his final months. Then Wigley came after Sturrock and he just couldn't get the results despite always seeming to come close. Sturrock was mediocre, but it's rewriting history to say he made us that bad.

 

Despite fingers being pointed at Beattie, I seem to remember it turning out to be Dodd who was sabotaging his reign, was that right?

You are right to some extent. When WGS left, we were beginning to drift. We needed a safe pair of hands, a manager with a proven track record. The appointment of Luggy was bizzare. Sometimes I actually think that Lowe 'allowed' the appointment of a hapless Luggy in the full knowledge that he would mess up the club, just so he could prove that people were wrong not to appoint Hoddle.

Lots of re-writing of history going on here.

 

Poor bloke never stood a chance.

Yes, a lot of rewriting of history by the anti-Hoddle brigade. Also, many distancing themselves from their part in our near destruction.

Indeed, I remember Man City well, and the end of that season was great. A bit revisionist to suggest it was doom from the start. it wasn't.

 

His tenure was fine, he never actually got the chance to get going and he left quickly but without doing too much wrong. After two games he certainly wasn't to blame for relegation, I think the fu ckwit Wigley and the crook can take a bow for that.

 

Signed Crouch who became an excellent player for us.

 

He was appointed as an excellent lower league manager, much like the Dave Jones appointment but clearly didn't quite work out. Likely he wouldn't have taken us to the heights Gordon did but I liked him and still do. He went back to being an excellent lower league manager, although looks like his time is up at Yeovil.

Absolutely this.

But the received wisdom on here is that he was crap from day one.

Yes, a lot of rewriting of history by the anti-Hoddle brigade. Also, many distancing themselves from their part in our near destruction.

So what did the wonderful Mr. Hoddle achieve after he left us?

Two-fifths of **** all.

Absolutely this.

 

But the received wisdom on here is that he was crap from day one.

He was a crap appointment.

Can't think of any other premier league side appointing a manager from at least 2 divisions below.

Ince at Blackburn is about it.

He was a crap appointment.

 

Can't think of any other premier league side appointing a manager from at least 2 divisions below.

 

Ince at Blackburn is about it.

Di Canio.

So what did the wonderful Mr. Hoddle achieve after he left us?

 

Two-fifths of **** all.

A fair point, but do you really think he would have done worse than Luggy. Maybe, Hoddle would have been little more than average. Even this would probably been enough to keep us up and start the rebuild. No, Luggy lost the dressing room. This destabilised the club and set off a chain reaction that ended up with us being relegated and very nearly bankrupt.

In the end we were very lucky that Markus rescued us and it all turned out well. However, that does not change the fact that the appointment of Luggy was an awful decision and one that we could have still been suffering by today.

Di Canio.

Another success.

Just too big a jump IMO.

He was a crap appointment.

 

Can't think of any other premier league side appointing a manager from at least 2 divisions below.

 

Ince at Blackburn is about it.

Pardew....was not employed by us when he went to Newcastle but the last team he managed was in league 1

Pardew....was not employed by us when he went to Newcastle but the last team he managed was in league 1

He already had premier league experience.

He also had promotion to the premier league experience. Along with a cup final thing too

He was with us as a 2nd coming:

He was a crap appointment.

That's your opinion.

13 games

5 wins

2 draws

6 defeats..

...suggests otherwise - not brilliant but certainly not crap.

Given how much grief Sturrock gets for his time with us, the results he achieved weren't actually terrible. 13 games in charge, 5 wins, 2 draws and 6 defeats; not great by any stretch but over the course of a season would comfortably see you mid table. And he was sacked following a win (against Blackburn). The real crime was replacing him with Steve f*cking Wigley, as clueless and inept a top level manager as there ever has been.

The Board did not agree because of protests by a vocal minority. That the Board did not canvass the quiet majority, who would have welcomed Hoddle back with open arms, was one of the most ridiculous and inept pieces of management ever !

Really. To have canvassed the minority or the majority would have been ridiculous and inept management, the Board needed to make a decision based on experience. Thank goodness the Board did push back on Lowe's stupid idea, he had a consistent track record of poor appointments other than WGS and Hoddle with Gorman. Hoddle was already a spent force, and without John Gorman proved himself to be incapable of decent football management. There is a reason why he remains to this day a (poor) pundit.

Really. To have canvassed the minority or the majority would have been ridiculous and inept management, the Board needed to make a decision based on experience. Thank goodness the Board did push back on Lowe's stupid idea, he had a consistent track record of poor appointments other than WGS and Hoddle with Gorman. Hoddle was already a spent force, and without John Gorman proved himself to be incapable of decent football management. There is a reason why he remains to this day a (poor) pundit.

And without a club to manage.

a few games hardly is his mould of football.

 

He was at plymouth for years. the football was dire. that was his football.

I doubt if pulis came in next week we would immediately become a long ball side. it would be drilled into us.

 

anywhere he has been for a worthwhile amount of time, he has produced awful football. Weds, Plymouth and everywhere else

even now, the great football star, who was on the rise when he came to us, has not won a game in 10 and sits in the relegation zone in league 2

I was a season ticket holder during my three years in Plymouth. They weren't dire.

Yes, there was some lowers league ****e to watch but they weren't a terrible side and could keep the ball on the ground as well as hit Mickey Evans with the big diagonal hoof.

The real crime was replacing him with Steve f*cking Wigley, as clueless and inept a top level manager as there ever has been.

Aint that the truth, totally clueless and just plain crap !!!

Given how much grief Sturrock gets for his time with us, the results he achieved weren't actually terrible. 13 games in charge, 5 wins, 2 draws and 6 defeats; not great by any stretch but over the course of a season would comfortably see you mid table. And he was sacked following a win (against Blackburn). The real crime was replacing him with Steve f*cking Wigley, as clueless and inept a top level manager as there ever has been.

This.

Nothing terribly wrong with Sturrock. He'd have kept us up judging by his results. It's Wigley's term that screwed us over.

Still, everything for a reason. I wouldn't change a thing considering where we are now.

A fair point, but do you really think he would have done worse than Luggy. Maybe, Hoddle would have been little more than average. Even this would probably been enough to keep us up and start the rebuild. No, Luggy lost the dressing room. This destabilised the club and set off a chain reaction that ended up with us being relegated and very nearly bankrupt.

 

In the end we were very lucky that Markus rescued us and it all turned out well. However, that does not change the fact that the appointment of Luggy was an awful decision and one that we could have still been suffering by today.

I think you'd be a lot happier if you'd just tell yourself that Wigley and Saggy were appointed instead of your beloved Glenda, due to the "vocal minority". That way you could direct your ire at the clowns actually responsible for our relegation. Of course, that would be rewriting history, but you have no problem doing that.

Given how much grief Sturrock gets for his time with us, the results he achieved weren't actually terrible. 13 games in charge, 5 wins, 2 draws and 6 defeats; not great by any stretch but over the course of a season would comfortably see you mid table. And he was sacked following a win (against Blackburn). The real crime was replacing him with Steve f*cking Wigley, as clueless and inept a top level manager as there ever has been.

This.

No you are totally right. Strachan was shyt. Hoddle was shyt. Jones was shyt. Souness was shyt. Lots and lots of shyt.

I would say that Jones was fairly shyt and should have been sacked before he was holidayed

Given how much grief Sturrock gets for his time with us, the results he achieved weren't actually terrible. 13 games in charge, 5 wins, 2 draws and 6 defeats; not great by any stretch but over the course of a season would comfortably see you mid table. And he was sacked following a win (against Blackburn). The real crime was replacing him with Steve f*cking Wigley, as clueless and inept a top level manager as there ever has been.

Spurs came 9th with 52 points that season. We might even have finished in the top half had he been able to maintain that record

He was diagnosed with Parkinsons during his 2nd spell with Argyle yet he still continues in the game. Yeovil are heading for non league again if they leave him there, so I guess he will be the next for the chop depending on the week end results.

completely and utterly out of his depth and should never have been anywhere near a premier league side

Played in a UEFA Cup Final as a player (as well as winning the Scottish League with Dundee United, which is amazing in hindsight) and won Manager of the YEAR in the lower leagues 2 of the 3 years before Saints appointed him, so at the time he was well worth a look.

I'm fairly sure if he'd still been the skinny athletic bloke he was in the 1980s the players might not have been so difficult to try and win over as well, but he didn't carry himself like a Premier League manager and that made things more difficult for him when results didn't go well. The tail end of 2004/5 we were as good as anyone but the direct attacking football which took Man City apart at their new ground was probably too limited to have longer term success - plus Crainey and Folly were nowhere near as good as the players they replaced.

I didn't want Hoddle to come back, but in hindsight admitted that we probably wouldn't have ended up relegated if he had returned. Mainly because I thought his main strength was organisation, and we went down because we couldn't stop the opposition scoring.

Agree that Wigley was the biggest mistake in Lowe's tenure - Gray was awful (surely only got the job full time because of 2 wins against Arsenal & United, both of whom had nothing to play for), but he acted swiftly and made an unpopular but successful decision to bring in WGS. I thought Redknapp and Burley were both good appointments at the time, would be surprised if many didn't.

I didn't want Hoddle to come back, but in hindsight admitted that we probably wouldn't have ended up relegated if he had returned. Mainly because I thought his main strength was organisation, and we went down because we couldn't stop the opposition scoring.

 

Agree that Wigley was the biggest mistake in Lowe's tenure - Gray was awful (surely only got the job full time because of 2 wins against Arsenal & United, both of whom had nothing to play for), but he acted swiftly and made an unpopular but successful decision to bring in WGS. I thought Redknapp and Burley were both good appointments at the time, would be surprised if many didn't.

FWIW I thought the Redknapp appointment was an awful idea from the start because it was obvious he was a chequebook manager and Lowe wasn't going to allow him to do that with Saints. On here (well, Saints Forever) the prevailing attitude seemed to be that it was a good appointment because he'd got teams out of trouble before and it was going to "annoy the Skates". I was reluctantly accepting of it, rather than particularly pleased.

But the method of scatterbomb signings he'd used previously to save teams wasn't available to him, the transfer window was a new thing which limited him further, and he was proven to be anachronistic even then by slating Prozone, Blackstock's dad slating his training "regime" of playing 5 a side, and his refusal to accommodate Woodward's ideas on preparation and sports science. The "annoy the Skates" bit, well, who the f'ck was laughing then?

Played in a UEFA Cup Final as a player (as well as winning the Scottish League with Dundee United, which is amazing in hindsight) and won Manager of the YEAR in the lower leagues 2 of the 3 years before Saints appointed him, so at the time he was well worth a look.

 

I'm fairly sure if he'd still been the skinny athletic bloke he was in the 1980s the players might not have been so difficult to try and win over as well, but he didn't carry himself like a Premier League manager and that made things more difficult for him when results didn't go well. The tail end of 2004/5 we were as good as anyone but the direct attacking football which took Man City apart at their new ground was probably too limited to have longer term success - plus Crainey and Folly were nowhere near as good as the players they replaced.

I remember watching Folly play in a friendly against Bayern Munich - thought he was excellent and we had a real prospect on our hands. That went well.

I remember watching Folly play in a friendly against Bayern Munich - thought he was excellent and we had a real prospect on our hands. That went well.

I was hopeful he'd be something special too, I was even defending him after he was subbed at half time in the opening match of the relegation season when Villa murdered us 2-0, but hindsight and all that.

Stephen Crainey didn't get another look in at a Prem side until getting a full season with relegated Blackpool 6 years later, the very definition of a Championship player having played around 250 of his 300 total English games in that division over the past 10 years, has just dropped into L1 with Fleetwood. Trouble was when we signed him he'd only had a season with Celtic, which isn't much to go on.

I'm fairly sure if he'd still been the skinny athletic bloke he was in the 1980s the players might not have been so difficult to try and win over as well, but he didn't carry himself like a Premier League manager and that made things more difficult for him when results didn't go well.

Thats a large part of it imo. Image is unfortunately a big part of getting people to trust you.

Thats a large part of it imo. Image is unfortunately a big part of getting people to trust you.

Obviously I'm speculating as we've only got hearsay and rumour from over 10 years ago to go on, but it's the sort of thing where you have to be exceptionally good to get away with not conforming to the norm, and he wasn't that.

I liked our style of football when he first came in. It had gone a bit stale prior to that.

Would still have kept him as manager if only the alternative was Wigley. Now that was a sh*t manager out of his depth. I saw him walking round Gunwharf on Sunday, and he still looked f*cking clueless doing that.

I liked our style of football when he first came in. It had gone a bit stale prior to that.

 

Would still have kept him as manager if only the alternative was Wigley. Now that was a sh*t manager out of his depth. I saw him walking round Gunwharf on Sunday, and he still looked f*cking clueless doing that.

He was a regular in Hedge End Sainsbury's for a while, though last time I saw him he was in Fulham gear, he's been Forest assistant manager and back to Fulham since then. Looking at his career, knowing Stuart Pearce seems to have been very useful for him. Excellent tan all year round.

Worth noting of course that he's a Skate who played in their FA Cup run in '92.

He was a regular in Hedge End Sainsbury's for a while, though last time I saw him he was in Fulham gear, he's been Forest assistant manager and back to Fulham since then. Looking at his career, knowing Stuart Pearce seems to have been very useful for him. Excellent tan all year round.

 

Worth noting of course that he's a Skate who played in their FA Cup run in '92.

Classic case of good coach, crap manager.

Both Crainey and Folly were Strachan signings

Classic case of good coach, crap manager.

Exactly this.

He coached me for 3-4 years and was the best coach I've ever had. He just wasn't a manager. That said, I wouldn't want to be on his bad side.

He was too chummy with the players at Saints and too inexperienced to manage at that level.

He still managed to beat the skates though.

FWIW I thought the Redknapp appointment was an awful idea from the start because it was obvious he was a chequebook manager and Lowe wasn't going to allow him to do that with Saints. On here (well, Saints Forever) the prevailing attitude seemed to be that it was a good appointment because he'd got teams out of trouble before and it was going to "annoy the Skates". I was reluctantly accepting of it, rather than particularly pleased.

 

But the method of scatterbomb signings he'd used previously to save teams wasn't available to him, the transfer window was a new thing which limited him further, and he was proven to be anachronistic even then by slating Prozone, Blackstock's dad slating his training "regime" of playing 5 a side, and his refusal to accommodate Woodward's ideas on preparation and sports science. The "annoy the Skates" bit, well, who the f'ck was laughing then?

The reason I thought he was a good appointment was that we needed to sign some new players, and he seemed a good person for that. But as you say, he didn't have free reign and some of his signings were poor. I never understood his blinkered attitude towards the technology and felt he used the Woodward "keeping the seat warm for somebody" scenario as a way to pass the buck, as he always does.

Exactly this.

 

He coached me for 3-4 years and was the best coach I've ever had. He just wasn't a manager. That said, I wouldn't want to be on his bad side.

He was too chummy with the players at Saints and too inexperienced to manage at that level.

 

He still managed to beat the skates though.

Same for Stuart Gray. I think that's what makes the Wigley appointment much worse - after the Hoddle-Spurs situation I could understand why Lowe might want to promote someone from within, who might blossom into a good manager. But having had his fingers burnt with Gray, why do the same again?

FWIW I thought the Redknapp appointment was an awful idea from the start because it was obvious he was a chequebook manager and Lowe wasn't going to allow him to do that with Saints. On here (well, Saints Forever) the prevailing attitude seemed to be that it was a good appointment because he'd got teams out of trouble before and it was going to "annoy the Skates". I was reluctantly accepting of it, rather than particularly pleased.

 

But the method of scatterbomb signings he'd used previously to save teams wasn't available to him, the transfer window was a new thing which limited him further, and he was proven to be anachronistic even then by slating Prozone, Blackstock's dad slating his training "regime" of playing 5 a side, and his refusal to accommodate Woodward's ideas on preparation and sports science. The "annoy the Skates" bit, well, who the f'ck was laughing then?

At the time I thought that Redknapp was a good appointment. Get your point about the chequebook but Lowe did give him £6m (which was a lot for us) to help keep us up and he didn't exactly spend the money wisely! I wised up and soon changed my mind about the appointment when I saw the calibre of the players he bought who were supposed to keep us up! I totally agree about his attitude about Woodward too. We needed a winning mentality and who better to work with to try and get that extra 5% out of the players. Apparently he wouldn't let Woodward anywhere near the first team. Surely when things are not going well you all pull together to try and turn things around? I remember him making a point about playing the kids by playing too many at once, us getting hammered and him saying there you are, I told you so! Worst comment for me though was after he left when he said I didn't know what I was doing there. Did he just join us to spite Mandaric I wonder?

Same for Stuart Gray. I think that's what makes the Wigley appointment much worse - after the Hoddle-Spurs situation I could understand why Lowe might want to promote someone from within, who might blossom into a good manager. But having had his fingers burnt with Gray, why do the same again?

I think at the time the idea was to have a Director of Football doing most of the manager type things and working with a Head Coach who would take care of the team. Both were good coaches, in fact I think I remember reading that the squad all applauded when the Gray appointment was announced. As we know in retrospect things didn't work out though. I had some sympathy for Wigley, he was plagued by injuries to key players.

At the time I thought that Redknapp was a good appointment. Get your point about the chequebook but Lowe did give him £6m (which was a lot for us) to help keep us up and he didn't exactly spend the money wisely! I wised up and soon changed my mind about the appointment when I saw the calibre of the players he bought who were supposed to keep us up! I totally agree about his attitude about Woodward too. We needed a winning mentality and who better to work with to try and get that extra 5% out of the players. Apparently he wouldn't let Woodward anywhere near the first team. Surely when things are not going well you all pull together to try and turn things around? I remember him making a point about playing the kids by playing too many at once, us getting hammered and him saying there you are, I told you so! Worst comment for me though was after he left when he said I didn't know what I was doing there. Did he just join us to spite Mandaric I wonder?

I'd be shocked if there wasn't some direct financial incentive for him - of course there was his usual modus operandi of pitching up and spending on at least 2 or 3 of a particular agent's players of questionable ability to sit in the reserves, with him getting a percentage of all transfers in and out. I doubt there was any of that at Saints, but I also doubt Lowe would have specifically mentioned that when trying to get him on board.

I was also very keen for us to get rid of him after relegation the second he said "I'll think about it", because it was obvious he wasn't going to be committed to it and once we weren't definitely bouncing straight back and preserving his reputation as a top top triffic manager f'sure his interest was clearly going to be in his own career and mind was somewhere else.

I think at the time the idea was to have a Director of Football doing most of the manager type things and working with a Head Coach who would take care of the team. Both were good coaches, in fact I think I remember reading that the squad all applauded when the Gray appointment was announced. As we know in retrospect things didn't work out though. I had some sympathy for Wigley, he was plagued by injuries to key players.

I always put that down to the players who'd agitated for Sturrock to leave pretty quickly not being happy with the replacement either once he got into post, despite him presumably being who they'd wanted, and "extending their unavailability" to help ensure he didn't last long either.