Juanmi

I wonder what the Black Box saw in the player?

He doesn't seem to have impressed Ronald enough to give him much playing time.

When he came on today he contributed very little, got muscled off the ball once and two or three times failed to track back the Sunderland player nearest to him with the ball.

It has been suggested on here that he is possibly one for the future, and I really hope that is the case, but so far he is seems to be a less expensive Gaston Ramirez.

Quite liked him when he came on tbf. The only player willing to take the ball in an unorthodox position. He's a little pass and move player, he isn't going to set the world alight in a struggling static front line.

Haven't seen enough of the player to make a judgement, but that doesn't stop people expecting him to set the world alight with limited time.

Plenty of people said the same about Clasie. Now he's a great player for us.

Juanmi may turn out to be terrible, but at least let him prove that he's terrible.

Haven't seen enough of the player to make a judgement, but that doesn't stop people expecting him to set the world alight with limited time.

 

Plenty of people said the same about Clasie. Now he's a great player for us.

 

Juanmi may turn out to be terrible, but at least let him prove that he's terrible.

Pretty much this I can't form much of an opinion on a player that plays 5-10 minutes here and there (which of course may be indicative of something). Until he gets some sort of run in the team it's pretty hard to say much about him. Seems people expect to come on and just be some sort of super sub which isn't very realistic. I would say today we looked more dangerous after he come on than before.

Haven't seen enough of the player to make a judgement, but that doesn't stop people expecting him to set the world alight with limited time.

 

Plenty of people said the same about Clasie. Now he's a great player for us.

 

Juanmi may turn out to be terrible, but at least let him prove that he's terrible.

Clasie's is ok but to describe him as a great player for us is way over the top. At present it is a miracle if he gets through 90 mins

I maintain he was signed as a ready made replacement for Mane next season.

I maintain he was signed as a ready made replacement for Mane next season.

In what sense seeing as he isn't a ready made replacement?

Even Ronald has mentioned he is far too weak. Didn't look any stronger today.

In what sense seeing as he isn't a ready made replacement?

In that he's pacy, skillful, has an eye for goal as proven by his time by Malaga.

I meant ready made for when Mane leaves by the way, having had a year to gel with the system and teammates.

Haven't seen enough of the player to make a judgement, but that doesn't stop people expecting him to set the world alight with limited time.

 

Plenty of people said the same about Clasie. Now he's a great player for us.

 

Juanmi may turn out to be terrible, but at least let him prove that he's terrible.

Is Clasie a great player for us? From what I saw today, Sunderland totally dominated midfield and we were crying our for someone like Wanyama to battle them for control. I'd say, Clasie is, at best, like Ward-Prowse, an OK player. In player ratings for our games he's usually one of our lower rated players. I doubt any other Premier League team would very be interested in signing him.

Would be nice to see him given a game in a confident pacey front line. There's literally nothing he could've done against Sunderland. I'm not impressed so far but tbh he's barely kicked a ball.

Thought he looked decent when he came on, particularly when he setup Pelle with a lovely little dinked pass.

Thought he looked decent when he came on, particularly when he setup Pelle with a lovely little dinked pass.

I thought so too.

Was a quality pass, in the box and ripped open there defense. We all keep complaining about the lack of creativity and that pass although snatched at by pelle was the moment of most significant creativity I've seen in the last 3 games.

In that he's pacy, skillful, has an eye for goal as proven by his time by Malaga.

I meant ready made for when Mane leaves by the way, having had a year to gel with the system and teammates.

I'm sure all his PL minutes under the belt are adding up to something special next season. Especially the way he is gelling with the 352 system in which his predecessor Mane hardly ever plays. Can't wait to see him raring to go from the 1st game of next season.

Even Ronald has mentioned he is far too weak. Didn't look any stronger today.

Skill?...maybe ...but like Gaston...(who I didn't dislike)....Juanmi will need to adjust to the "physical side" of English football, if he's to make a Prem. career.

Even Ronald has mentioned he is far too weak. Didn't look any stronger today.

What exactly did Ron say? Not disagreeing.

Didn't see him come away with a single second ball yesterday. He might be small, but that doesn't mean he can't put himself about a but more. I had hoped for much more. Wonder if he will be given time or will return to Spain?

Haven't seen enough of the player to make a judgement, but that doesn't stop people expecting him to set the world alight with limited time.

 

Plenty of people said the same about Clasie. Now he's a great player for us.

 

Juanmi may turn out to be terrible, but at least let him prove that he's terrible.

Ineffective.

I just don't understand how anyone can criticise a players effectiveness when only the minimum of game time is afforded to the player. He's basically coming on to replace some tiring legs with creativity which he does. A prolonged run in the team, preferably at no.10 would provide the opportunity to critique him more accurately. He's not got the skills or speed of Mane however, so he'll not be a replacement for him.

Ron has a good eye for a player and seems to think he has a big future ahead of him. I agree with the point made above. Give the guy a decent run in the team before writing him off.

Ron has a good eye for a player and seems to think he has a big future ahead of him. I agree with the point made above. Give the guy a decent run in the team before writing him off.

On here, not a chance...nice thought though...

What exactly did Ron say? Not disagreeing. Didn't see him come away with a single second ball yesterday.

 

He might be small, but that doesn't mean he can't put himself about a but more. I had hoped for much more. Wonder if he will be given time or will return to Spain?

It really is a fallacy to condemn "shorter" strikers - isn't it?

looking at great names in our history...Charlie Wayman was just 5'8" (as was Marian Pahars). Terry Paine was 5'7" and (my 60's hero) George O'Brien was 5'6".

True - they perform better when playing with a bigger striker, or a good winger, but then again Messi isn't the tallest in the Barca side - is he?

(However, I don't think we should mention Juanmi's name too much on the same thread as the above).

It really is a fallacy to condemn "shorter" strikers - isn't it?

 

looking at great names in our history...Charlie Wayman was just 5'8" (as was Marian Pahars). Terry Paine was 5'7" and (my 60's hero) George O'Brien was 5'6".

 

True - they perform better when playing with a bigger striker, or a good winger, but then again Messi isn't the tallest in the Barca side - is he?

 

(However, I don't think we should mention Juanmi's name too much on the same thread as the above).

What's a fallacy is to use examples from when two (or more) strikers were a thing so there was a chance to play someone who wasn't able to win the ball in the air without it being significant, the average height was lower, clubs weren't picking from the entire world's best players, and the general athleticism of all players was significantly less, meaning that there were often not a plethora of "bigger, stronger" options who could do the same thing as the "smaller, nippier" players. Even when Pahars played he had Beattie hulking around alongside him most of the time.

Playing one up top doesn't usually lend itself to that "one" being a shortar5e. You need a player who can win the ball and keep it, and get into positions to score from crosses in the air OR on the ground, with the strength to hold off CBs and the touch and pace to get past them on the ground. Examples such as Barcelona with their midget false 9s a couple of seasons ago are exceptions - if there are two players with exact the same skillsets and one is bigger/stronger/taller, you'd take the one with more aerial presence.

FWIW I thought Juanmi was no better or worse than anyone else on Saturday though.

Played in U21s a couple of weeks ago and looked poor.

Played in U21s a couple of weeks ago and looked poor.

Playing with those who are still learning the game isn't ideal. They don't make the runs or see the passes that seasoned pros do.

Clasie's is ok but to describe him as a great player for us is way over the top. At present it is a miracle if he gets through 90 mins

Agree with this. Still a way to go before he deserves the "great" adjective. As for Juanmi agree with others above, hard to tell when he has played so little.

Playing with those who are still learning the game isn't ideal. They don't make the runs or see the passes that seasoned pros do.

Guess he'd struggle even more in an u-13 game then

Playing with those who are still learning the game isn't ideal. They don't make the runs or see the passes that seasoned pros do.

Guess the 7 months that separates Juanmi from an under 21 must have more to do with the development of a player than anyone had ever imagined.

Been a disappointment as I heard great things about him whilst in Malaga last summer . The locals genuinely rated the guy and thought he had real potential to do well for us . From the limited amount I've seen he looks way too lightweight for the Premiership and although it is possible for someone to bulk up and still remain skilful and quick footed , I haven't noticed him getting any stronger as the seasons gone on

Been a disappointment as I heard great things about him whilst in Malaga last summer . The locals genuinely rated the guy and thought he had real potential to do well for us . From the limited amount I've seen he looks way too lightweight for the Premiership and although it is possible for someone to bulk up and still remain skilful and quick footed , I haven't noticed him getting any stronger as the seasons gone on

A lot of nonsense spouted about bulking up and being too lightweight for the PL - usually levelled at small foreign players of course. Do you think Messi would be ok?

Bloke did not suddenly become a mediocre player after turning out for Spain even, though Ok he did need to adjust to the PL. System does not allow reserves sufficient game time. Same with Yoshi, who improves when given a run, was with Gaston it seems. The game needs a proper reserve league in parallel to the first team, as well as the under-21s, who don't exactly have a large number of games. Either that, or slash permitted squad size to 18 and force teams running out of players to give youngsters a turn - now, that would nicely hurt the "big clubs"!

What exactly did Ron say? Not disagreeing.

 

Didn't see him come away with a single second ball yesterday. He might be small, but that doesn't mean he can't put himself about a but more. I had hoped for much more. Wonder if he will be given time or will return to Spain?

Said something about never giving him free kicks in training as he needs to become stronger on the ball. Also said something else about physicality in a separate interview.

I'm not writing him off as he's young and obviously talented looking at the rest of his career so far. But yes, he's small and weak so will need to adjust.

Yes Messi is small but he is far from weak.

Guess the 7 months that separates Juanmi from an under 21 must have more to do with the development of a player than anyone had ever imagined.

There is a huge difference between playing in the senior squad and playing in the u21s. Have you seen any of their matches?

There is a huge difference between playing in the senior squad and playing in the u21s. Have you seen any of their matches?

Yes thanks, probably more than you. But your usual rude, having a personal dig that's unwarranted misses the point. Point was that Juanmi is really not much more than an under 21, and really still needs to be learning and building his confidence. He really lacks the confidence when he gets a go in the first team, it was so obvious on Saturday. Gets in good positions and makes decent runs, showing he has a good football brain but then doesn't have the confidence to know what to do. As a result Ronald does not give him more opportunities. Needs to be playing more, and at the moment he would do well playing with the U21s who are basically at the same level as him in terms of development. Its not ideal, but the alternative is to get him out on loan to a Championship side, and that's not going to happen this season. I think he's a decent little player, and was really willing him to do something Saturday but his lack of confidence is holding him back at the moment.

A lot of nonsense spouted about bulking up and being too lightweight for the PL - usually levelled at small foreign players of course. Do you think Messi would be ok?

Messi is a lot stronger than Juanmi . It's not to do with size , Gaston was too lightweight for the premiership . If you don't think Juanmi isn't too lightweight , you're pretty clueless .

Said something about never giving him free kicks in training as he needs to become stronger on the ball. Also said something else about physicality in a separate interview.

 

I'm not writing him off as he's young and obviously talented looking at the rest of his career so far. But yes, he's small and weak so will need to adjust.

 

Yes Messi is small but he is far from weak.

Yes that's pretty much as I remember the comments. RK clearly still sees him as one for the future and the work in the meantime needs to take place through diet and gym work. He is clearly a very talented player but will he have the patience to develop with Saints? He did alright with his last club so part of him must be wondering whether the effort of beefing up is worth it when he can go back and be almost the first name on the team sheet.

Bloke did not suddenly become a mediocre player after turning out for Spain even, though Ok he did need to adjust to the PL.

System does not allow reserves sufficient game time. Same with Yoshi, who improves when given a run, was with Gaston it seems.

The game needs a proper reserve league in parallel to the first team, as well as the under-21s, who don't exactly have a large number of games.

Either that, or slash permitted squad size to 18 and force teams running out of players to give youngsters a turn - now, that would nicely hurt the "big clubs"!

I think the days of " Reserve teams " are gone - if not forgotten.

Gordon Strachan raised a few eyebrows when he said (2003) that Reserve sides would disappear within 10 years, and as it happened - it was a lot sooner than that .

At a time when we see teenagers regularly playing in Prem.sides, it has to be seen as progress. In any case U21 sides are allowed three (?) overage players , and are often used as way of helping injured players back to match fitness / giving bench players a bit of game time..

Gazzaniga plays alternate games with Lewis for U21's but Forsyth, Clasie, Martina, Targett, Juanmi and Bertrand have all had game time with that squad this season.

If not a natural first choice, we need players like them on the bench, but...the idea of having them as "permanent reserves" is not a good one for them or the club.

As this thread is about Juanmi.....it's clear that he's nowhere near Prem. standard, but what did we expect of him in the first place? I'm not sure?

His first team playing record so far is.. just two League Cup starts (and subbed in one of those).. and 17 assorted sub. apps totalling approx. 300(?) minutes. No goals.

Perhaps if he'd scored one, people would be a little more patient with him.

Cuco Martina silenced a few of his critics who condemned him, with (that goal) in the Arsenal game.. and that after a very few outings.

It's been mentioned before that Juanmi isn't capable of matching himself against the " stronger Prem. defenders " (that's being polite) but it's patently obvious.

Clasie has a very similar build, but has clearly learned " to take care of himself in scuffles " in the harder arena of Dutch football. Juanmi hasn't...yet.

I'm all for giving Juanmi a chance - if only for the not inconsiderable fee we paid - but every time I've seen him he looks like that rabbit caught in the headlights

Clasie has a very similar build, but has clearly learned " to take care of himself in scuffles " in the harder arena of Dutch football. Juanmi hasn't...yet.

:

Clause looked like a schoolboy against teams when first played for us, I don't think he leaned how "to take care of himself" in Dutch football. I think he's learning that now in English football. His first few games had me genuinely worried as he didn't look like he would be able to compete at all. He was knocked off the ball like he was a child. He's got a lot better but can improve further.

Hopefully juanmi will make progress but I'm doubting he will ever make it. I hope I'm wrong.

Yes thanks, probably more than you. But your usual rude, having a personal dig that's unwarranted misses the point. Point was that Juanmi is really not much more than an under 21, and really still needs to be learning and building his confidence. He really lacks the confidence when he gets a go in the first team, it was so obvious on Saturday. Gets in good positions and makes decent runs, showing he has a good football brain but then doesn't have the confidence to know what to do. As a result Ronald does not give him more opportunities. Needs to be playing more, and at the moment he would do well playing with the U21s who are basically at the same level as him in terms of development. Its not ideal, but the alternative is to get him out on loan to a Championship side, and that's not going to happen this season. I think he's a decent little player, and was really willing him to do something Saturday but his lack of confidence is holding him back at the moment.

Sorry but I don't think I was being rude or having a dig. I was simply making the point that there is a world of difference between under 21 football and Premiership football. Yes, I expect you have seen more under 21 football than I have. I don't know if he will make it or not but I don't think we are in a position to say for certain either way until he gets a run in the 1st team.

We can all have an opinion about a young player but nobody knows because mostly it is down to the attitude, determination and hard work of the player not the opinion of his critics. A player is nowhere near the finished article in his early 20's and all develop at a different pace, but I would venture to suggest that strength is far easier to acquire than skill.

If it's any help, my mrs thinks he's good looking. Then again, she's married to me so I guess the bar is set pretty low.

Been a disappointment as I heard great things about him whilst in Malaga last summer . The locals genuinely rated the guy and thought he had real potential to do well for us . From the limited amount I've seen he looks way too lightweight for the Premiership and although it is possible for someone to bulk up and still remain skilful and quick footed , I haven't noticed him getting any stronger as the seasons gone on

A lot of nonsense spouted about bulking up and being too lightweight for the PL - usually levelled at small foreign players of course. Do you think Messi would be ok?

I think you'd be very surprised at how much stocky strength Messi actually has. If you've ever watched him play in the flesh, you see it quite clearly - he's actually surprisingly resiliant. It was the same with Ronaldinho as well - a wiry physique combined with excellent balance and a low centre-of-gravity that made him very difficult to shake off the ball as much as he might have had the skill and pace to dribble past players.

Then you've got players who really are thin-as-a-pin like Neymar, but they're extremely rare examples and in Neymar's case, he gets away with it thanks to having flexibility, agility and balance that is absolutely out of this world (in addition to his pace and skill).

Juanmi is, however, a completely ordinary player when it comes to those abilities - and is ridiculously weak. As soon as he's given the ball he's robbed of it completely effortlessly by the nearest midfielder who gets shoulder-to-shoulder with him, rendering him almost completely ineffective. He can't even muster a bit of resistance by getting his body low, sticking his bum out and shielding the ball (as, by example, Messi and Suarez are very good at as part of the 'dirty work' of striking play. He seems to consistently receive the ball in a standing position and run with it incredibly daintily so that when a defender does get alongside him, he loses the one-on-one physical battle so completely that his skill is an irrelevance.

Messi is a lot stronger than Juanmi . It's not to do with size , Gaston was too lightweight for the premiership . If you don't think Juanmi isn't too lightweight , you're pretty clueless .

Were you one of the ones saying same about Clasie? My how he bulked up to become a decent player.

Haven't seen enough of Juanmi so I'll stay off the cliched opinion for now.

I think the days of " Reserve teams " are gone - if not forgotten....

 

In any case U21 sides ..... are often used as way of helping injured players back to match fitness / giving bench players a bit of game time...

 

As this thread is about Juanmi.....it's clear that he's nowhere near Prem. standard, but what did we expect of him in the first place? I'm not sure?

 

 

Perhaps if he'd scored one, people would be a little more patient with him.

Cuco Martina silenced a few of his critics who condemned him....

 

I'm all for giving Juanmi a chance - if only for the not inconsiderable fee we paid - but every time I've seen him he looks like that rabbit caught in the headlights

Sadly you're right about reserves, but how are players not there every week suppose to get match fit? The issue remains chicken and egg, indeed the same applies to youngsters who appear for a game or two on the bench and then disappear, but at least they have the U21s or can be loaned out.

You mentioned Martina, yes, one goal and seemed to improve even his defending when given a game or two. Then regressed after several games out. The turnouts for U21s you mention have mostly been one-offs from people thoroughly used to the Premier League and not even that rusty, even Juanmi was one off in the U21s I think. Maybe RK thought Juanmi would be useful in the Europe League group stages, but we messed that up: I think he should get a chance, but how?

Juanmi is utter ****e. Worse than Mayuka as at least he was quick. Not enough skill to make up for a lack of pace and no strength. Get rid asap and permanently - not on loan.

Juanmi is utter ****e. Worse than Mayuka as at least he was quick. Not enough skill to make up for a lack of pace and no strength. Get rid asap and permanently - not on loan.

I'm struggling to believe you've seen him play if you think Juanmi is slow.

Look at this match winning goal vs Barcelona for sheer acceleration and pace...

[video=youtube;z8CgMUh8-Z0]

If you are going to criticise him, pace and skip would be a strange thing to go with as he is very quick and skilful...

Lack of strength on the ball is his main weakness, something Koeman acknowledges and wants to work on. I wouldn't write him off yet, he has some useful attributes.

Juanmi is without a doubt a skilled and talented prospect. The premier league is probably a little too physical for him at this stage, but that is something players of his stature need to adapt too and that takes time and actual playing time. I feel the move to Southampton was probably the wrong move for Juanmi, as he isn't getting the same amount of game time as he was at Malaga and probably needed another season or so to improve at a club and league he was already settled in. Overall though I'll d like to see more of Juanmi, even if it does take a few games for him to become settled, like it does with most players new to a league.

Mayuka looked good on You Tube, so did Delgado, so did Ramirez etc etc

Has he beat a player for pace in a Saints shirt? Has he beat anyone with a piece of skill?

He may well have these things buried in his locker but until such time as we actually see anything on the pitch, I'll maintain he's not fit for purpose. If he can't cope with being even slightly leaned on then he's not going to be any good. Where we are letting him down is not playing him in every single U21 game.