Big summer?

I see this summer as a huge one for Saints. Next season in the premier league is going to be tough. If the top 4 remain the same, Leicester & Spurs will suddenly be awash with Champions League money and look to strengthen. The Leicester owners also seem ambitious. Arsenal will always be there or there about (with or without Arsene) and City will be splashing the cash to keep Pep happy. United, Chelsea and Liverpool will be looking for great improvement after disappointing seasons. So where do Saints fit in – I feel Everton are going to make some big strides now they have a huge investment coming in (possibly bringing a new manager & certainly new players) & West Ham are constantly improving under Bilic & seem willing to pay big transfer fees & wages. The same goes for Stoke. Will Saints try and keep up with all these teams – or we will be happy being the best of the rest. Obviously I know that there are no guarantees all the teams mentioned will all do well – and a few could well have a bad season – but I think we are at a crossroads. We can no longer rely on our academy to produce ready made Premier League players – and it seems inevitable one or two of our big name players will leave this summer (Wanyama & Mane, hopefully not Forster/Betrand!) I feel we will really need to spend quite big to keep up – not buying clubs from relegated clubs but maybe some established premier league players. There are going to be huge changes at Chelsea/City/Liverpool & a lot of players will be surplus to requirements – so maybe a few good players knocking around there for example. Will the board sanction big singings with Koeman only a year left on his contract? Can we survive another transfer window as the only club not making a net positive outlay on transfers?

When have we ever bought established premier league players? We won't do that.

Steve Davis and Kelvin before that. There are some good ones around without having to scour the gossip columns.

Buying Pl proven players is going to be nigh on impossible with the increase in money in the PL. Even mid table sides will be able to offer obscene wages and PL clubs will only sell to rival PL teams for massively over inflated prices. Most teams will look else where in the world for players IMO.

As Leicester have illustrated this season, it's not always all about spending big bucks...

p.s. don't let Neil Allen see how many sentences you managed to cram into one paragraph

Despite their foray into the Champions League I think Leicester will drop back into the pack next year - partly due to the extra games partly due to the fact that a few of their players are just "an awesome season" (Morgan, Vardy, Huth) and will return to normal level far more often, and partly because they will certainly lose 2-3 players.

I think the OP is spot on though that this is a massive summer in our history. I think we need to see at least 3 or 4 players signed in the 15-20m bracket (assuming Wanyama goes, I think Mane will stay) in order to have a real opportunity to get top 6 or even 4.

We need a top quality left footed CB, a top class Defensive Midfielder. an Attacking midfielder who can score, and a young fast very mobile striker (to replace Pelle). In addition we need a RB. Either one who is better than Cedric in a 4 or at least good enough to push him when we play with 5. If Stek does not sign then another GK also.

This may cost 70-80+ but 20-25 will come back in from sales. This number is big to us but this needs to happen to strengthen our position and is relevant to what everyone else is doing. It then gives the kids a little bit more breathing space (1-2 seasons) to burst through, saving money in future seasons.

I see this summer as a huge one for Saints. Next season in the premier league is going to be tough. If the top 4 remain the same, Leicester & Spurs will suddenly be awash with Champions League money and look to strengthen.

Being in the CL for a Prem club is a convenient sideline cashwise as of next season, it'll allow the teams who are in it to have higher FFP thresholds for a bit, but the actual prize money is not that massive compared to the kind of money Man Utd are making anyway just from merchandising, unless you get to the quarter finals or beyond.

Now add a baseline of about £60m more to the Prem figures above, and only about £15m more to the CL - and the CL is much more performance-based. You'll get £97m coming bottom of the Prem next season, you have to win the CL to get that much.

The odd £30m here and there isn't that significant, when you look at the amounts ALL Prem teams will get to start with from next season:

Here's Man U's money in 2014 and 2015:

When have we ever bought established premier league players? We won't do that.

It wouldn't make any sense at all to do that now either, everyone's going to be asking for stupid money with English-based players knowing there's a whole wodge more cash around - the market will be in buying better, slightly more established players from better European sides, because the entire Prem will be in the top 35 richest clubs in Europe after next season. Even Bournemouth.

Despite their foray into the Champions League I think Leicester will drop back into the pack next year - partly due to the extra games partly due to the fact that a few of their players are just "an awesome season" (Morgan, Vardy, Huth) and will return to normal level far more often, and partly because they will certainly lose 2-3 players.

I think the OP is spot on though that this is a massive summer in our history. I think we need to see at least 3 or 4 players signed in the 15-20m bracket (assuming Wanyama goes, I think Mane will stay) in order to have a real opportunity to get top 6 or even 4.

We need a top quality left footed CB, a top class Defensive Midfielder. an Attacking midfielder who can score, and a young fast very mobile striker (to replace Pelle). In addition we need a RB. Either one who is better than Cedric in a 4 or at least good enough to push him when we play with 5. If Stek does not sign then another GK also.

 

This may cost 70-80+ but 20-25 will come back in from sales. This number is big to us but this needs to happen to strengthen our position and is relevant to what everyone else is doing. It then gives the kids a little bit more breathing space (1-2 seasons) to burst through, saving money in future seasons.

The way things are going will probably have to do that just to stand still.....

Despite their foray into the Champions League I think Leicester will drop back into the pack next year - partly due to the extra games partly due to the fact that a few of their players are just "an awesome season" (Morgan, Vardy, Huth) and will return to normal level far more often, and partly because they will certainly lose 2-3 players.

I think the OP is spot on though that this is a massive summer in our history. I think we need to see at least 3 or 4 players signed in the 15-20m bracket (assuming Wanyama goes, I think Mane will stay) in order to have a real opportunity to get top 6 or even 4.

We need a top quality left footed CB, a top class Defensive Midfielder. an Attacking midfielder who can score, and a young fast very mobile striker (to replace Pelle). In addition we need a RB. Either one who is better than Cedric in a 4 or at least good enough to push him when we play with 5. If Stek does not sign then another GK also.

 

This may cost 70-80+ but 20-25 will come back in from sales. This number is big to us but this needs to happen to strengthen our position and is relevant to what everyone else is doing. It then gives the kids a little bit more breathing space (1-2 seasons) to burst through, saving money in future seasons.

Having stat-dumped above, you are mostly right about Saints, and probably Leicester too. The key as always is signing the RIGHT players, everyone is going to have wodges of cash and there will be some daft deals. Can't wait to see some of the moron Spurs fans getting all "we're being left behind" when the club most likely sticks to the only philosophy that's actually worked for them in 50 years.

The way things are going will probably have to do that just to stand still.....

Timely, given my comment about Spurs. They've taken our model (and manager, and analytics lead) and instead of endlessly throwing money around haphazardly have instead recruited young talented players with a specific goal in mind, and they've got that much more prestige, that bit much more money, and a more well-known location which has helped them take it to a higher level and MOSTLY (but not last night) have a strong enough squad to rotate and keep players from getting fatigued.

Just chucking money at new players doesn't necessarily improve a team. Doing that removes some of the benefits of players having built up understandings of each other's movements, and the team's system, which can be critical in making split-second decisions which matches at the top level can hinge on. Often just buying players who should be better papers over deficiencies. Look at Man U at the moment, look at City!

Pleased to say we're not usually one of those kind of teams, but with that much more money we do have to give serious consideration to how we improve - I'd say the general principle of signing players who are better than the ones we have obviously still applies, but we need to keep most of the ones who've established themselves and drip-feed the new players in gradually, rather than the wholesale replacements we've had to go for in the past 2 seasons. Continuous gradual improvement seems to be our chosen path, and that's a lot more stable in terms of success than scatterbombing big money players - we should address the obvious weaknesses in squad depth, and we can do that as long as we're quick to move in the summer before the money gets out of hand.

What Leicester have shown this season, and to a lesser extent Saints for a few years, is that megabucks don't necessarily buy success.

Far more important is the construction of a team who can play and develop together with team spirit and joint ambition.

Too many "top" players are greedy individuals only out to make even more for themselves. Loyalty to any team doesn't exist: their only targets are individual glory and the next big money move.

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Timely, given my comment about Spurs. They've taken our model (and manager, and analytics lead) and instead of endlessly throwing money around haphazardly have instead recruited young talented players with a specific goal in mind, and they've got that much more prestige, that bit much more money, and a more well-known location which has helped them take it to a higher level and MOSTLY (but not last night) have a strong enough squad to rotate and keep players from getting fatigued.

 

Just chucking money at new players doesn't necessarily improve a team. Doing that removes some of the benefits of players having built up understandings of each other's movements, and the team's system, which can be critical in making split-second decisions which matches at the top level can hinge on. Often just buying players who should be better papers over deficiencies. Look at Man U at the moment, look at City!

 

Pleased to say we're not usually one of those kind of teams, but with that much more money we do have to give serious consideration to how we improve - I'd say the general principle of signing players who are better than the ones we have obviously still applies, but we need to keep most of the ones who've established themselves and drip-feed the new players in gradually, rather than the wholesale replacements we've had to go for in the past 2 seasons. Continuous gradual improvement seems to be our chosen path, and that's a lot more stable in terms of success than scatterbombing big money players - we should address the obvious weaknesses in squad depth, and we can do that as long as we're quick to move in the summer before the money gets out of hand.

Totally agreed, and explained more eloquently than my simultaneous post.

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Totally agreed, and explained more eloquently than my simultaneous post.

You were far more succinct.

The thing with Leicester, is they have a system which works for them, players who are totally committed to it at all times, and Ranieri is shrewd enough to tweak it slightly all the time, so they aren't getting "found out", as we seem to be for swathes of matches at a time.

Their first XI is proving it's as good as anyone in the league at this moment in time, but there's a reason the big clubs have two starters for every position, and there's still no escaping that they've been incredibly lucky with injuries and suspensions.

Without that there'd be a few more games for the likes of Wasilewski, King, Dyer and whoever the hell their reserve keeper is (admittedly as well as Inler, who can't even get in the team despite actually being good), and they'd be down with the rest of the upper midtable sides, which I think they'd have been happy with at the start of the season.

They do now look like making the top 4 at least, even if the wheels completely come off.

Until we get Koeman tied up to another contract we are going to struggle to attract.

Lets face it that so many players who have come to the club have mentioned Koeman as a manager they would love to train under.

Sort that out with a little more ambition from Reed then why can't we finish in the top 6 with a decent cup run.

Going forward get rid of Mane and Wanyama (if he wants to leave) and replace with proven European players plus a new centre back to rival Fonte.

Can't see anyone wanting Mane after the second half of the season he has had.

Until we get Koeman tied up to another contract we are going to struggle to attract.

Lets face it that so many players who have come to the club have mentioned Koeman as a manager they would love to train under.

Sort that out with a little more ambition from Reed then why can't we finish in the top 6 with a decent cup run.

 

Going forward get rid of Mane and Wanyama (if he wants to leave) and replace with proven European players plus a new centre back to rival Fonte.

I see your point about Koeman and I'd prefer to keep him, but he isn't the be all and end all. Lots of people thought that Poch leaving would signal the end- then we went and achieved our highest ever finish in the Prem and qualified for Europe. Whose to say there isn't another gem that Les has his eye on already to replace Koeman with who will do even better given the chance? If the last few years of being a Saints fan have taught me anything it's that everyone is replaceable.

Every summer is big and a poor one can be disasterous for anyone outside the top 5/6

We need a top quality left footed CB, a top class Defensive Midfielder. an Attacking midfielder who can score, and a young fast very mobile striker (to replace Pelle). In addition we need a RB. Either one who is better than Cedric in a 4 or at least good enough to push him when we play with 5. If Stek does not sign then another GK also.

Unfortunately, your list could be attributed to the wants of every club in the League.

All I want for the summer is for the club to keep hold of the players who are worth keeping hold of. Mané will probably go although his lack of form will do him no favours.

I just want to see the club keep hold of its star players. You know as well as I do that the media will go into full meltdown if we sell even one player.

I hate being known for selling are best players, but in fairness to the board we have got good money for all the players that left, but I do not want anyone going bar Wanyama as 1 I think we are better without him and 2 he ****ed me off in the summer with demanding a move, if Jay Rod and Foster had played more games we would have at least 4-6 more points then we currently have.

I think if the board are ambitious as they say and want Koeman to stay past next season they need to let him keep everyone he wants plus allow him to bring in a few players.

IMO we are two good players away from being top 6, buy a top class CB allow them to play with VVD and Fonte in the 3 and then allow Bertrand to push up to LWB plus a striker if Jay Rod and or Austin look like they will struggle again next season with injuries.

The top clubs have top players and next season can only spend their money on replacing like for like.

The other teams in the league will have the finances to replace with better players. I think the league will be more competitive if clubs like Saints spend wisely. Time for the Black Box to prove its worth….

Does anyone think a top quality RB would be a wise purchase... I'm not completely convinced with this Martina/Cedric situation

I agree it is indeed going to be a big Summer, we definitely can't really afford to rest on our laurels and rely so heavily on the magic 'black box' this Summer I reckon, we need to buy more astutely than we did last Summer and show some ambition to be a UCL club once again, unfortunately I feel Brendan Rodgers was right when he said 'Southampton were set to be a CL team, I believe that, but I don't know what happened' or words to that effect, you just see what has happened to Leicester this season and what keeping great players around can do for morale, consistency and ambition and that is just somewhat lacking at Saints since Cortese left I feel.

We could've easily bought players in the January of 2013/14 and 2014/15 to give us a better chance of challenging for a top-4 spot, but the club didn't want to spend the cash, we sold all our players over the two Summers and were instead left with a 'hopefully we'll get Europa' mentality, which is just nowhere near ambitious enough.

I agree it is indeed going to be a big Summer, we definitely can't really afford to rest on our laurels and rely so heavily on the magic 'black box' this Summer I reckon, we need to buy more astutely than we did last Summer and show some ambition to be a UCL club once again, unfortunately I feel Brendan Rodgers was right when he said 'Southampton were set to be a CL team, I believe that, but I don't know what happened' or words to that effect, you just see what has happened to Leicester this season and what keeping great players around can do for morale, consistency and ambition and that is just somewhat lacking at Saints since Cortese left I feel.

 

We could've easily bought players in the January of 2013/14 and 2014/15 to give us a better chance of challenging for a top-4 spot, but the club didn't want to spend the cash, we sold all our players over the two Summers and were instead left with a 'hopefully we'll get Europa' mentality, which is just nowhere near ambitious enough.

please can you tell me who we could have bought?

please can you tell me who we could have bought?

that is why we pay millions in a scouting system, tell the press about our black box

not go of a recommendation from saintsweb

I agree it is indeed going to be a big Summer, we definitely can't really afford to rest on our laurels and rely so heavily on the magic 'black box' this Summer I reckon, we need to buy more astutely than we did last Summer and show some ambition to be a UCL club once again, unfortunately I feel Brendan Rodgers was right when he said 'Southampton were set to be a CL team, I believe that, but I don't know what happened' or words to that effect, you just see what has happened to Leicester this season and what keeping great players around can do for morale, consistency and ambition and that is just somewhat lacking at Saints since Cortese left I feel.

 

We could've easily bought players in the January of 2013/14 and 2014/15 to give us a better chance of challenging for a top-4 spot, but the club didn't want to spend the cash, we sold all our players over the two Summers and were instead left with a 'hopefully we'll get Europa' mentality, which is just nowhere near ambitious enough.

What "great players" did Leicester keep then? Hint - Leicester were battling relegation all last season. Hint 2 - Jamie Vardy scored 5 league goals last season.

that is why we pay millions in a scouting system, tell the press about our black box

not go of a recommendation from saintsweb

Hmm well 2014 january we were never going to buy when we knew pochettino was basically ******** off in the summer- and we were around 9th if I recall in January- 10 pts off 7th or something- again, spending at an inflated price would be stupid then.

2015 January- yes the blackbox is a great scouting system but what if no one was available at the right price? Maybe the board that Elia and Djuricic would be enough.

I agree it is indeed going to be a big Summer, we definitely can't really afford to rest on our laurels and rely so heavily on the magic 'black box' this Summer I reckon, we need to buy more astutely than we did last Summer and show some ambition to be a UCL club once again, unfortunately I feel Brendan Rodgers was right when he said 'Southampton were set to be a CL team, I believe that, but I don't know what happened' or words to that effect, you just see what has happened to Leicester this season and what keeping great players around can do for morale, consistency and ambition and that is just somewhat lacking at Saints since Cortese left I feel.

 

We could've easily bought players in the January of 2013/14 and 2014/15 to give us a better chance of challenging for a top-4 spot, but the club didn't want to spend the cash, we sold all our players over the two Summers and were instead left with a 'hopefully we'll get Europa' mentality, which is just nowhere near ambitious enough.

Also - you're swooning over what Leicester have done, but they've done it without buying loads of players or spending the cash that you think we could have "easily" have done. I don't think Leicester have bought anyone for ten million quid and we've bought loads of them all over the pitch.

So it's not really that easy is it.

Last little hint for you - the era of "morale consistency and ambition" ended when we're were ninth place in January 2014. Since then we've finished 7th and we're 7th now.

Suggesting just as much consistency and morale as before.

It's fascinating to see the Cult of Cortese bristle with frustration and annoyance that the doom they predicted just doggedly refused to happen - breaks your little hearts don't it?

Southampton FC - doing just fine. Sorry and that.

Also - you're swooning over what Leicester have done, but they've done it without buying loads of players or spending the cash that you think we could have "easily" have done. I don't think Leicester have bought anyone for ten million quid and we've bought loads of them all over the pitch.

 

So it's not really that easy is it.

 

Last little hint for you - the era of "morale consistency and ambition" ended when we're were ninth place in January 2014. Since then we've finished 7th and we're 7th now.

 

Suggesting just as much consistency and morale as before.

 

It's fascinating to see the Cult of Cortese bristle with frustration and annoyance that the doom they predicted just doggedly refused to happen - breaks your little hearts don't it?

 

Southampton FC - doing just fine. Sorry and that.

Leicester's success is due to a number of factors many of which were not within their actual control--such as their low number of injuries and Vardy's and Mahrez's surprisingly prolific scoring. Also, the best and worst clubs are not as far apart in quality this year which makes it easier to get to the top of the League.

If Pelle has scored like Vardy last year and Mane had scored like Mahrez and everyone had remained healthy we might have competed for the title and we certainly would have finished ahead of Manchester United, Tottenham, and Liverpool.

Also - you're swooning over what Leicester have done, but they've done it without buying loads of players or spending the cash that you think we could have "easily" have done. I don't think Leicester have bought anyone for ten million quid and we've bought loads of them all over the pitch.

 

So it's not really that easy is it.

 

Last little hint for you - the era of "morale consistency and ambition" ended when we're were ninth place in January 2014. Since then we've finished 7th and we're 7th now.

 

Suggesting just as much consistency and morale as before.

 

It's fascinating to see the Cult of Cortese bristle with frustration and annoyance that the doom they predicted just doggedly refused to happen - breaks your little hearts don't it?

 

Southampton FC - doing just fine. Sorry and that.

Us being 7th this season says more about the strength of the league than it does about us. Don't think anyone would argue that the side we had in 13/14 was significantly better than the one we have now. We might have been 9th when Cortese left, but that side had so much more potential. The injury crisis we had in December that season basically finished us, but we were only one or two players away from have a really really good side. Nobody would have left in the summer of 2014 if he was still there, and we'd have probably strengthened further. The big names might have wanted out a year later, but who knows how much further along we would have been by then?

Reed and co did good business prior to last season, but do think part of the reason we did so well was because of the foundations that were put in place beforehand. Everything was geared towards the long-term. Think the new board have done well to stabilise things and we're on a really sound financial footing, but don't see much room for growth in the current team. Our business since Paul Mitchell left has been poor.

With that in mind I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on bringing in young talent with potential. Also think Koeman should have less influence in who we bring in, especially considering he'll probably be gone within the next 18 months. Although we have done alright signing RK's mates, think we're limiting ourselves by not looking at a wider range of options.

Us being 7th this season says more about the strength of the league than it does about us. Don't think anyone would argue that the side we had in 13/14 was significantly better than the one we have now. We might have been 9th when Cortese left, but that side had so much more potential. The injury crisis we had in December that season basically finished us, but we were only one or two players away from have a really really good side. Nobody would have left in the summer of 2014 if he was still there, and we'd have probably strengthened further. The big names might have wanted out a year later, but who knows how much further along we would have been by then?

 

Reed and co did good business prior to last season, but do think part of the reason we did so well was because of the foundations that were put in place beforehand. Everything was geared towards the long-term. Think the new board have done well to stabilise things and we're on a really sound financial footing, but don't see much room for growth in the current team. Our business since Paul Mitchell left has been poor.

 

With that in mind I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on bringing in young talent with potential. Also think Koeman should have less influence in who we bring in, especially considering he'll probably be gone within the next 18 months. Although we have done alright signing RK's mates, think we're limiting ourselves by not looking at a wider range of options.

Interesting points, possibly worthy of their own thread but wouldn't take long for it to be hijacked as all the old coals are raked over again.

Not sure about would be leavers had NC stayed. Although I accept NC might have put up a greater fight to keep them and resist the inevitable, do you really think Lovren and Nivea Boy would not have had their heads turned by Liverpool's interest (especially once discussed on an England WC tour). Shaw was always destined for a bigger stage, although that might have been deferred. Just how 'loyal' would MP have been to his master once Levy had flashed his 'pieces of silver' ? Forget all the b*llocks about leaving because NC had gone, that was a convenient and face saving 'get out'.

Inclined to agrre about the recruitment falling a little, but conversely we've avoided the Ramires/ Osvaldo acquisitions. It seemed to me NC liked making big signings in Italy, despite how drawn out they were even after players stated they weren't interested in coming here.

Like you though, I'm not too sure how the Koeman - Black Box issue is worked out.

We might have been 9th when Cortese left, but that side had so much more potential.. Nobody would have left in the summer of 2014 if he was still there, and we'd have probably strengthened further.

Well, I think that's simply adorable.

Also - you're swooning over what Leicester have done, but they've done it without buying loads of players or spending the cash that you think we could have "easily" have done. I don't think Leicester have bought anyone for ten million quid and we've bought loads of them all over the pitch.

 

So it's not really that easy is it.

 

Last little hint for you - the era of "morale consistency and ambition" ended when we're were ninth place in January 2014. Since then we've finished 7th and we're 7th now.

 

Suggesting just as much consistency and morale as before.

 

It's fascinating to see the Cult of Cortese bristle with frustration and annoyance that the doom they predicted just doggedly refused to happen - breaks your little hearts don't it?

 

Southampton FC - doing just fine. Sorry and that.

You like giving out Hints don't you Mr. Fry

I'm no Cortese apologist or worshipper, the man had plenty of faults that's for sure, but since he left the ambition does seem to of drained out the proverbial plug-hole, you see Koeman and the players saying on Social Media sometimes about getting into Europe or how they want to get up to that UEL place and it just seems like hollow words to me, the club are happy to be 7th/8th/9th/10th every season whatever it may be, and if we don't get Europe it's 'oh well, maybe next year' instead of putting an infrastructure and pathway into place to get into the UCL.

It saddens me that our club once pulsating with ambition is now one that's happy to shrug their shoulders if they don't get a Europa League place and try again next season, with seemingly no other goal to aim for (apart from vague hopes of a decent cup run each season), it's just not enough for me for Saints to simply make up the numbers in the PL anymore.

I'll always love the club, and will watch and support the team regardless, but I just hope in 5 years time if we're still in the PL that we aren't still talking about 'hopefully getting a Europa League place' as the club will be in limbo with no real want or desire to escape it.

You like giving out Hints don't you Mr. Fry

 

I'm no Cortese apologist or worshipper, the man had plenty of faults that's for sure, but since he left the ambition does seem to of drained out the proverbial plug-hole, you see Koeman and the players saying on Social Media sometimes saying about getting into Europe or how they want to get up to that UEL place and it just seems like hollow words to me, the club are happy to be 7th/8th/9th/10th every season whatever it may be, and if we don't get Europe it's 'oh well, maybe next year' instead of putting an infrastructure and pathway into place to get into the UCL.

 

It saddens me that our club once pulsating with ambition is now one that's happy to shrug their shoulders if they don't get a Europa League place and try again next season, with seemingly no other goal to aim for (apart from vague hopes of a decent cup run each season), it's just not enough for me for Saints to simply make up the numbers in the PL anymore.

 

I'll always love the club, and will watch and support the team regardless, but I just hope in 5 years time if we're still in the PL that we aren't still talking about 'hopefully getting a Europa League place' as the club will be in limbo with no real want or desire to escape it.

That's funny because there are plenty of interviews with players - our captain Fonte especially - and club management - our Ralph and Les - that talk specifically about our ambition to make it to the Champions League. It's identical to the stuff the Italian used to say, just without the "half the squad from the academy" fairytale.

And when we "pulsate with ambition" under the last guy we got to ninth. When we apparently "shrug our shoulders" we smash our points record and finish higher than we ever have for nearly thirty years.

And by "infrastructure and pathway" why don't you just be honest about what you mean? If you want to whine like a toddler because that big rich woman won't spend infinite money just to satisfy your Football Manager fantasies then fine but do try not to wrap it up in bullsh it speak about pathways. Get over it.

Hilarious, hilarious that the predicted collapse post the Italian leaving has not happened, and is not happening but people like you are so desperate to have the argument and pretend it has anyway.

Finished seventh last year, pi ssing all over anything he achieved and nicely on track to finish in a similar spot this season.

Pulsating with ambition my effing backside.

Us being 7th this season says more about the strength of the league than it does about us. Don't think anyone would argue that the side we had in 13/14 was significantly better than the one we have now. We might have been 9th when Cortese left, but that side had so much more potential. The injury crisis we had in December that season basically finished us, but we were only one or two players away from have a really really good side. Nobody would have left in the summer of 2014 if he was still there, and we'd have probably strengthened further. The big names might have wanted out a year later, but who knows how much further along we would have been by then?

 

Reed and co did good business prior to last season, but do think part of the reason we did so well was because of the foundations that were put in place beforehand. Everything was geared towards the long-term. Think the new board have done well to stabilise things and we're on a really sound financial footing, but don't see much room for growth in the current team. Our business since Paul Mitchell left has been poor.

 

With that in mind I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on bringing in young talent with potential. Also think Koeman should have less influence in who we bring in, especially considering he'll probably be gone within the next 18 months. Although we have done alright signing RK's mates, think we're limiting ourselves by not looking at a wider range of options.

I would we did better the season after without those players, none of the players who left have particularly stood out (well they have but for all the wrong reasons)and the squad as whole is stronger than back then.

You like giving out Hints don't you Mr. Fry

 

I'm no Cortese apologist or worshipper, the man had plenty of faults that's for sure, but since he left the ambition does seem to of drained out the proverbial plug-hole, you see Koeman and the players saying on Social Media sometimes saying about getting into Europe or how they want to get up to that UEL place and it just seems like hollow words to me, the club are happy to be 7th/8th/9th/10th every season whatever it may be, and if we don't get Europe it's 'oh well, maybe next year' instead of putting an infrastructure and pathway into place to get into the UCL.

 

It saddens me that our club once pulsating with ambition is now one that's happy to shrug their shoulders if they don't get a Europa League place and try again next season, with seemingly no other goal to aim for (apart from vague hopes of a decent cup run each season), it's just not enough for me for Saints to simply make up the numbers in the PL anymore.

 

I'll always love the club, and will watch and support the team regardless, but I just hope in 5 years time if we're still in the PL that we aren't still talking about 'hopefully getting a Europa League place' as the club will be in limbo with no real want or desire to escape it.

With the greatest of respect, this reeks of naivety.

We had a great team back in 13/14 that should have probably done better, but I'm still of the opinion that Cortese knew he'd overspent, the family weren't happy and he saw the walls start to crumble. He jumped before the stick would have been branded at him. We'd hit a level, players were tapped up and decided their futures were elsewhere. There's nothing NC or MP could have done to stop that either, but they left and it was painted perfectly as if KL was running us to the ground.

The investment in the management and the team after that showed it was anything other than that, and it showed that as a club we were a hell of a lot more stronger than a few individuals. In general terms, I never quite understand why fans believe spending £££££££ is the answer to everything. It's not and it's really not the way I want to see us go. Fair enough, it looks sexy and exciting when you see us break our transfer record...but that's all it is, it doesn't actually equal success or more points. That will come down to the management and the coaching above anything else.

I'd say the most important tasks this summer will be to tie this management team down and all the coaches. We then have a clear direction for the long-term, the worst thing we could have for next season is 10 months of Koeman ''is he staying, is he going?'' ''he doesn't look committed anymore" ********. That needs to be sorted out before anything else this summer.

Any stats for player/club achievement per income? Individual Saints players don't seem to figure so much in top Premier stats this season, yet we are currently seventh, which proves that as a cohesive team performing well for each other we have been doing better than clubs with expensive individuals, Chelsea for example.

So like Leicester this season, this suggests that it is teamwork and good management that counts more than buying expensive players.

Can we maintain this next season? As the OP says, it is going to be a very important summer. Lets hope RK signs a contract extension.

The most important signing of the summer would be, IMHO, Ron's.

We had a great team back in 13/14 that should have probably done better, but I'm still of the opinion that Cortese knew he'd overspent, the family weren't happy and he saw the walls start to crumble. He jumped before the stick would have been branded at him. We'd hit a level, players were tapped up and decided their futures were elsewhere. There's nothing NC or MP could have done to stop that either, but they left and it was painted perfectly as if KL was running us to the ground.

 

The investment in the management and the team after that showed it was anything other than that, and it showed that as a club we were a hell of a lot more stronger than a few individuals. In general terms, I never quite understand why fans believe spending £££££££ is the answer to everything. It's not and it's really not the way I want to see us go. Fair enough, it looks sexy and exciting when you see us break our transfer record...but that's all it is, it doesn't actually equal success or more points. That will come down to the management and the coaching above anything else.

 

I'd say the most important tasks this summer will be to tie this management team down and all the coaches. We then have a clear direction for the long-term, the worst thing we could have for next season is 10 months of Koeman ''is he staying, is he going?'' ''he doesn't look committed anymore" ********. That needs to be sorted out before anything else this summer.

Spot on - well put.

We've done a great job of not letting players go into their last year, so I'd like to think we'd do the same with the manager. Pretty sure we will do. There's a possibility the process may result in us having a new manager, but more than likely Ron will sign a little extension.

That's funny because there are plenty of interviews with players - our captain Fonte especially - and club management - our Ralph and Les - that talk specifically about our ambition to make it to the Champions League. It's identical to the stuff the Italian used to say, just without the "half the squad from the academy" fairytale.

 

And when we "pulsate with ambition" under the last guy we got to ninth. When we apparently "shrug our shoulders" we smash our points record and finish higher than we ever have for nearly thirty years.

 

And by "infrastructure and pathway" why don't you just be honest about what you mean? If you want to whine like a toddler because that big rich woman won't spend infinite money just to satisfy your Football Manager fantasies then fine but do try not to wrap it up in bullsh it speak about pathways. Get over it.

 

Hilarious, hilarious that the predicted collapse post the Italian leaving has not happened, and is not happening but people like you are so desperate to have the argument and pretend it has anyway.

 

Finished seventh last year, pi ssing all over anything he achieved and nicely on track to finish in a similar spot this season.

 

Pulsating with ambition my effing backside.

Again, you're getting fixated on Cortese which wasn't my intention in any of these posts, I'm not a pro-Cortese guy, I'm just saying for me personally, I felt and could see the ambition in the club when he was around and since he left I've felt its waned a bit, Les and co. have done a fantastic job in steadying the ship, replacing players and keeping the club ticking over since Cortese left, the players we've bought post-Cortese have probably been better than during his reign, but I feel that's come at a price and that price is no UCL football yet.

I don't want Kat to go out and splash the cash to Barcelona, Real Madrid and City levels, and I've never played Football Manager, I want us to buy even more shrewdly than we have bought in the past, buy the next Schneiderlin, the next Luke Shaw that other clubs haven't discovered yet, spending a load of cash on a player only when feasible, sustainable and appropriate.

Yes this is a fantasy, it's what I would like to see happen rather than will happen or even what I think will happen in the future, I know multi-million pound Football Club's aren't run on the whims, hopes or dreams of their fans, it's just what in an ideal World I'd like to see.

It's my dream to see Saints in the UCL and I can't tangibly believe or hope we're going to get there any time soon, the last thing I want is for us to become Stoke or West Brom, just happy that they've stayed up season after season after season.

So, getting this thread back on Topic, it is, I feel, a HUGE Summer for Saints, do we continue building, spending and scouting to enable us to push for the UCL within the next 3 seasons and tell our best players they aren't going anywhere or do we sit back, see some of our better players sold again and hope that their replacements work out once again next season? It'll be interesting to find out.

Again, you're getting fixated on Cortese which wasn't my intention in any of these posts, I'm not a pro-Cortese guy, I'm just saying for me personally, I felt and could see the ambition in the club when he was around and since he left I've felt its waned a bit, Les and co. have done a fantastic job in steadying the ship, replacing players and keeping the club ticking over since Cortese left, the players we've bought post-Cortese have probably been better than during his reign, but I feel that's come at a price and that price is no UCL football yet.

 

I don't want Kat to go out and splash the cash to Barcelona, Real Madrid and City levels, and I've never played Football Manager, I want us to buy even more shrewdly than we have bought in the past, buy the next Schneiderlin, the next Luke Shaw that other clubs haven't discovered yet, spending a load of cash on a player only when feasible, sustainable and appropriate.

 

Yes this is a fantasy, it's what I would like to see happen rather than will happen or even what I think will happen in the future, I know multi-million pound Football Club's aren't run on the whims, hopes or dreams of their fans, it's just what in an ideal World I'd like to see.

 

It's my dream to see Saints in the UCL and I can't tangibly believe or hope we're going to get there any time soon, the last thing I want is for us to become Stoke or West Brom, just happy that they've stayed up season after season after season.

 

So, getting this thread back on Topic, it is, I feel, a HUGE Summer for Saints, do we continue building, spending and scouting to enable us to push for the UCL within the next 3 seasons and tell our best players they aren't going anywhere or do we sit back, see some of our better players sold again and hope that their replacements work out once again next season? It'll be interesting to find out.

With all due respect, you're not really making any sense now.

Either the Champions League thing is "a fantasy, what I'd like to see happen" or its something you can berate the club for not having "a pathway" for. You seem to try and have it both ways.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - how is pootling into 9th in January 2014 "showing ambition" but registering our record points total in the Premier and highest finish for nearly 30 years is airily dismissed as "steadying the ship"? Just nonsense I'm afraid.

You seem to really dislike the fact that we got far closer to UCL under the current management than any previous management. It's a fact. Accept it.

Lastly, Stoke are currently 9th and clearly aren't "happy to stay up season after season" - they are trying to push for Europe just like us.

Here's how this works.

Les has explained it, Cortese used to say much the same.

We will try to finish in the CL spots, trying to be ready when big clubs fail. But we will not match big clubs budgets and the whole thing requires everything to fall into place perfectly as well as the fundementals we can control (good management, signing well scouted players, good infrastructure, team spirit and purpose).

If we had the injury record Leicester have had this season, last season I personally think we might have been two places higher, maybe knocking on the door more than that. Still, this season we are still there. 7th. Not 15th. Not 17th. Not even 12th. 7th. That's not "happy to have stayed up". On my planet, that's called seventh place.

Les Reed and Cortese both explained our European ambition and how we will achieve it in much the same way. Many, many times now. Read or Listen to what they say, get your head around it, and then enjoy the most successful period we've had for thirty years. At some point in your lifetime and mine, we'll be back in the Championship so Christ knows how you'll manage to cope with that.

The stuff about players not leaving because of Cortese... Didn't Morgan Schneiderlin kick off because he had a 'gentleman's agreement' from Cortese he could leave for £10m in summer 2014? Surely ties in with the fact that he signed a new contract in February 2013 with the agreement he could leave in a year.

The most important signing of the summer would be, IMHO, Ron's.

Agreed, it'd be hard to recruit players and sell them 'the vision' when we all know the manager is out the door next summer.

With all due respect, you're not really making any sense now.

 

Either the Champions League thing is "a fantasy, what I'd like to see happen" or its something you can berate the club for not having "a pathway" for. You seem to try and have it both ways.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier - how is pootling into 9th in January 2014 "showing ambition" but registering our record points total in the Premier and highest finish for nearly 30 years is airily dismissed as "steadying the ship"? Just nonsense I'm afraid.

 

You seem to really dislike the fact that we got far closer to UCL under the current management than any previous management. It's a fact. Accept it.

 

Lastly, Stoke are currently 9th and clearly aren't "happy to stay up season after season" - they are trying to push for Europe just like us.

 

Here's how this works.

 

Les has explained it, Cortese used to say much the same.

 

We will try to finish in the CL spots, trying to be ready when big clubs fail. But we will not match big clubs budgets and the whole thing requires everything to fall into place perfectly as well as the fundementals we can control (good management, signing well scouted players, good infrastructure, team spirit and purpose).

 

If we had the injury record Leicester have had this season, last season I personally think we might have been two places higher, maybe knocking on the door more than that. Still, this season we are still there. 7th. Not 15th. Not 17th. Not even 12th. 7th. That's not "happy to have stayed up". On my planet, that's called seventh place.

 

Les Reed and Cortese both explained our European ambition and how we will achieve it in much the same way. Many, many times now. Read or Listen to what they say, get your head around it, and then enjoy the most successful period we've had for thirty years. At some point in your lifetime and mine, we'll be back in the Championship so Christ knows how you'll manage to cope with that.

It's difficult to explain, so I'll keep things simple.

Did I feel more ambition in the club and more forward momentum when Cortese was at the helm? Yes, 2 Promotions, finishing (a then) record high of 9th in the PL, with all the tremendous players we had in the Summer of 2014, I felt back then it was achievable to reach the UCL, that we were on the cusp of greatness, and I just don't feel that way right now. You may believe what Les and co. are saying, I like Les, I like Kat, I'm not going to slag them off, but I just don't inherently believe them and believe the words coming out their mouths in regards to our European ambitions as much as I did when Cortese was in charge.

By 'steadying the ship' I was referring to the fantastic recruitment job done by Les & co. to replace the players we lost so efficiently and quickly in the Summer of 2014.

I don't dislike the fact that we got far closer to the UCL under current management, but I do dislike we haven't pushed on this season.

Only since Mark Hughes took charge have Stoke been more ambitious, even with him in charge they didn't strike me as a particularly ambitious club until this Season when finally they've shown some drive to aim for more.

I understand what you and the club are getting at in regards to the CL spots, and it makes sense. I know it's Football, but I just haven't seen the club push on like I thought we would this season, 7th is great at the moment sure, but we came 7th last year, 6th is the absolute minimum we should be aiming for this season, that's progress. If Players get sold again this Summer UCL football is going to look further and further away for us, it's a huge Summer.

Also, I managed to cope well enough when we were in League 1 and the Championship before, so should that ever happen again in the future (god forbid) I'll be fine, don't you worry sunshine

It's difficult to explain, so I'll keep things simple.

 

Did I feel more ambition in the club and more forward momentum when Cortese was at the helm? Yes, 2 Promotions, finishing (a then) record high of 9th in the PL, with all the tremendous players we had in the Summer of 2014, I felt back then it was achievable to reach the UCL, that we were on the cusp of greatness, and I just don't feel that way right now. You may believe what Les and co. are saying, I like Les, I like Kat, I'm not going to slag them off, but I just don't inherently believe them and believe the words coming out their mouths in regards to our European ambitions as much as I did when Cortese was in charge.

 

By 'steadying the ship' I was referring to the fantastic recruitment job done by Les & co. to replace the players we lost so efficiently and quickly in the Summer of 2014.

 

I don't dislike the fact that we got far closer to the UCL under current management, but I do dislike we haven't pushed on this season.

 

Only since Mark Hughes took charge have Stoke been more ambitious, even with him in charge they didn't strike me as a particularly ambitious club until this Season when finally they've shown some drive to aim for more.

 

I understand what you and the club are getting at in regards to the CL spots, and it makes sense. I know it's Football, but I just haven't seen the club push on like I thought we would this season, 7th is great at the moment sure, but we came 7th last year, 6th is the absolute minimum we should be aiming for this season, that's progress. If Players get sold again this Summer UCL football is going to look further and further away for us, it's a huge Summer.

 

Also, I managed to cope well enough when we were in League 1 and the Championship before, so should that ever happen again in the future (god forbid) I'll be fine, don't you worry sunshine

Cortese ran for the hills before he ever had to deliver any of his promises so remember that when you swoon over him - he quit, he ran, he did not stick it out and face into the challenge. No ambition. Quitter. Not employed anywhere else.

I think you need to accept that we are not going to finish higher and higher and higher every single season forever.

You saying sixth is the "absolute minimum" is ridiculous for a club like us.

As for not believing Les, I'd like to know what he says that hasn't been true. He's been very clear about what we absolutely will not do, and that's been consistent for several years. Your complaint seems to be we are not doing things you want, but those are the things he said we won't do. He's not lying, he's just not doing what you want. Very different.

My recommendation is enjoy the moment now because it's fleeting and whining about what we're not doing is distracting you from what we are doing. Which is just great and will not last forever.

The stuff about players not leaving because of Cortese... Didn't Morgan Schneiderlin kick off because he had a 'gentleman's agreement' from Cortese he could leave for £10m in summer 2014? Surely ties in with the fact that he signed a new contract in February 2013 with the agreement he could leave in a year.

Correct. I'm not sure where the CoC myth started that no one would ever leave if he was here as he has a 100% conversion rate when it came to sales v big offers for players. Despite brash claims that he threw bids for players in the bin once daddy chamberlain got on the blower telling him that arsenals bench was preferable to Corteses ambition Nick nack bottled it and flogged him quicker than it took him to clean out the team coach after Plymouth away.

Another amusing thing is how the CoC continue to claim that we were all set to crack the top 4 because the dwarf talked a good game. But this isn't bore out by any facts. We may have had a decent first XI when he was here but underneath that the cupboard was bare as proven by the fact every time we got a couple of injuries we'd have our arses handed to us. Despite all his big talk in front of the cameras we could no doubt have expected big money spent on more disastrous signings like Osvaldo and Ramirez but hey, he showed ambition, right?

Then of course is the undeniable fact that once he was asked to stop spunking money up the wall and actually make a few quid he went running to the dole queue, not into the arms of the AC Milan owners who he claimed had courted him for 4 years. An employee shouting from the roof tops about what they are going to do isn't a vision if it isn't shared by your bosses it's some egoed, big mouth telling people what they want to hear for his own ends. A lot of people have seen through it now but some faithful souls still believe the gospel according to Nick Nack. Although as we've seen history is showing that what we achieved in his time here was inspite of him. It because of him.

It's difficult to explain, so I'll keep things simple.

 

Did I feel more ambition in the club and more forward momentum when Cortese was at the helm? Yes, 2 Promotions, finishing (a then) record high of 9th in the PL, with all the tremendous players we had in the Summer of 2014, I felt back then it was achievable to reach the UCL, that we were on the cusp of greatness, and I just don't feel that way right now. You may believe what Les and co. are saying, I like Les, I like Kat, I'm not going to slag them off, but I just don't inherently believe them and believe the words coming out their mouths in regards to our European ambitions as much as I did when Cortese was in charge.

 

By 'steadying the ship' I was referring to the fantastic recruitment job done by Les & co. to replace the players we lost so efficiently and quickly in the Summer of 2014.

 

I don't dislike the fact that we got far closer to the UCL under current management, but I do dislike we haven't pushed on this season.

 

Only since Mark Hughes took charge have Stoke been more ambitious, even with him in charge they didn't strike me as a particularly ambitious club until this Season when finally they've shown some drive to aim for more.

 

I understand what you and the club are getting at in regards to the CL spots, and it makes sense. I know it's Football, but I just haven't seen the club push on like I thought we would this season, 7th is great at the moment sure, but we came 7th last year, 6th is the absolute minimum we should be aiming for this season, that's progress. If Players get sold again this Summer UCL football is going to look further and further away for us, it's a huge Summer.

 

Also, I managed to cope well enough when we were in League 1 and the Championship before, so should that ever happen again in the future (god forbid) I'll be fine, don't you worry sunshine

Is there any evidence to say we're not aiming for for 6th at a minimum? We are all of three points off it as things stand. If we fall short have we simply failed to reach that ambition? Or were we really just settling for 7th/8th/9th all along.

Our goal is to make in into Europe. That is our stated ambition. It's not a rolled gold guarantee of success. The other 19 PL teams aren't just going to lie down and say "Oh Saints have ambition here let's let them have one of those spots".

As for momentum and the cusp of greatness under the little Italian, the ONLY time we were anywhere near the CL spots was about a year after he left, with a squad he was largely not responsible for assembling.

I just don't understand how you can argue that the words coming out of the mouths of the board aren't in any way matching their actions on and off the field.

I agree it is indeed going to be a big Summer, we definitely can't really afford to rest on our laurels and rely so heavily on the magic 'black box' this Summer I reckon, we need to buy more astutely than we did last Summer and show some ambition to be a UCL club once again, unfortunately I feel Brendan Rodgers was right when he said 'Southampton were set to be a CL team, I believe that, but I don't know what happened' or words to that effect, you just see what has happened to Leicester this season and what keeping great players around can do for morale, consistency and ambition and that is just somewhat lacking at Saints since Cortese left I feel.

 

We could've easily bought players in the January of 2013/14 and 2014/15 to give us a better chance of challenging for a top-4 spot, but the club didn't want to spend the cash, we sold all our players over the two Summers and were instead left with a 'hopefully we'll get Europa' mentality, which is just nowhere near ambitious enough.

He was a complete **** when he said this, and it was said full of smugness because he thought he was the greatest thing since bread came sliced and he was going to go on and take the Dippers to glory.

It was nothing but a stab at the club and a way to deflect criticism from the players he signed for the manner in which he went about signing them.

And he's still a complete ****, but at least he got his.

And again, we DID challenge for a top four spot last season. Up until Jan/Feb if I recall correctly. But we simply were not good enough for various reasons to see the job done.