Europa League qualification?

What do we need to do to qualify for Europe?

If United or West Ham win The FA cup and finish in 5/6 place would it be given to 7th placed team in the league?

have to finish above Liverpool IMO

stoke have avery tough run-in and think we will just have enough to beat them

I think it might be prudent to stay out of the Europa League. We should concentrate on our PL status.

I still think personally that a top four place isn't out of the question. We still have to play Man City yet, and Man Utd and West Ham have some difficult looking fixtures.

I think it might be prudent to stay out of the Europa League. We should concentrate on our PL status.

Oh you.... you little rascal

According to some around here we need ambition, which we apparently lack.

What happens if Liverpool win the Europa League? Where does that place go?

What happens if Liverpool win the Europa League? Where does that place go?

Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

 

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

No. I believe that if the CL winner finishes outside the top four, then 4th place is gazumped (i.e. if City win CL and finish 5th), but the Europa League winner has a spot reserved for them in the CL, regardless of country, and therefore Liverpool would not take it from another side by winning the Europa. Pretty sure about the Liverpool bit, not 100% on the City bit!

We'd have to win 5 I think, which is unlikely anytime with those fixtures, most of all this season when we're this inconsistent. Been hoping all season we'd find enough consistency to do something but 8th or 9th has looked likely for a long time. Which is ok normally, just frustrating in the worst quality season ever, and the best opportunity ever to finish above Chelsea, Liverpool or Man utd.

The only thing I'd say is that I don't think our side is that great this year. We lost our two (and arguably three) best players and have only adequately replaced one of them (I like Romeu but wouldn't claim him to be on Schneiderlin's level). Throw in Wanyama and Mane (probably our next best players) being wildly inconsistent and Forster being injured for ages, and I'm actually amazed that seventh, equalling last year, is very much achievable (I was going to say 6th, but that's a bit optimistic). Of course it's disappointing that we haven't been better placed to capitalise on a strange PL season, but finishing 8th would still be a decent effort for this squad. Given we have been looking up at 5th/6th for a little while, 9th or 10th would be a bit of a shame, I admit.

We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

We have to play 3 teams at or near the bottom (Villa, Sunderland and Palace), two good teams (Man City and Spurs) and one team that is erratic in performance (Everton). The bare minimum we must do is beat Villa, Sunderland and Palace. Three points or more from the other three games and we should do it IMO.

We have to play 3 teams at or near the bottom (Villa, Sunderland and Palace), two good teams (Man City and Spurs) and one team that is erratic in performance (Everton). The bare minimum we must do is beat Villa, Sunderland and Palace. Three points or more from the other three games and we should do it IMO.

We have only got 5 games left, and we have already played Sunderland twice!

If we turn up we'll beat Everton but seeing as they beat us 3-0 they might be up for it so you never know. I'll predict a draw. We should beat Villa. Man City at home, a point would be a good result, Spurs away will probably be a defeat and we should beat Palace.

I reckon we'll get 8 points from our final 5 games. Good enough, who knows.

So we could qualify in 8th - provided Liverpool finish 7th or above and win the EL, and either Man Utd or West Ham finish above us and win the FA Cup.

What happens if Liverpool win the Europa League? Where does that place go?

Doesn't it mean that the team in 4th gets gazumped for CL, as by winning Europa Liverpool would qualify automatically for the CL and 4th gets the Europa spot? Or is the CL spot for winning Europa a Willy Wonka'esk golden ticket?

 

If it's the forma, a few club bean counters are going to be scratching their heads, especially with Leicester and Spurs muddying the water!

No. I believe that if the CL winner finishes outside the top four, then 4th place is gazumped (i.e. if City win CL and finish 5th), but the Europa League winner has a spot reserved for them in the CL, regardless of country, and therefore Liverpool would not take it from another side by winning the Europa. Pretty sure about the Liverpool bit, not 100% on the City bit!

We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the UEFA rules are perfectly clear about this in a very confusing way.

Article 3 of Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2015-18 Cycle cover all the scenarios. Here is a link: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/57/51/2235751_DOWNLOAD.pdf

I will limit my discussion to possible scenarios for England this year rather that address what could theoretically happen to any club in any league in any year.

Manchester City has qualified for the Europa League by winning the league cup. If they win the Champions League, but do not finish in the top four of the League they still qualify for the group stage of the Champions League and England only gets two entries into the Europa League instead of three. I believe that the third round playoff spot is the one lost rather than one of the direct entries into the group stage but I am not sure.

Assuming Liverpool does not finish in the top three, if they win the Europa League they will usually qualify for the group stage of the Champions League, but not always. It depends on the Champions League winner's situation. If the Champions League winner would have qualified for the group stage based upon their domestic performance, Liverpool would get their group slot. Otherwise they would start in the playoffs. I do not see a clear statement as to whether England would get 2 or 3 Europa League slots under this scenario. Give the current league position of all the clubs that are still alive in the Champions League this scenario would only come into play if Wolfsburg won the Champions League.

For the rest of this discussion assume that both Liverpool and Manchester City win their European competitions:

If both would have qualified for the Europa League through their domestic performance, then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League and England only gets two Europa League spots.

If Liverpool does not qualify for the Europa League then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League but England gets three Europa League spots. (This seems very strange to me but that is how I read the rules. In fact, if neither European winner qualified for the Europa League, England would get an extra entry into the Europa League for a total of nine entries into Europe--but that can't happen this year.)

I should mention that the rules are somewhat different for nations that do not normally have four Champions League representatives.

We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

Correct. And if that happens it would be most amusing if Spurs were to finish 4th. Unfortunately the odds of all of that happening are about 5000-1.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the UEFA rules are perfectly clear about this in a very confusing way.

 

Article 3 of Regulations of the UEFA Champions League 2015-18 Cycle cover all the scenarios. Here is a link: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/Regulations/02/23/57/51/2235751_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

I will limit my discussion to possible scenarios for England this year rather that address what could theoretically happen to any club in any league in any year.

 

Manchester City has qualified for the Europa League by winning the league cup. If they win the Champions League, but do not finish in the top four of the League they still qualify for the group stage of the Champions League and England only gets two entries into the Europa League instead of three. I believe that the third round playoff spot is the one lost rather than one of the direct entries into the group stage but I am not sure.

 

Assuming Liverpool does not finish in the top three, if they win the Europa League they will usually qualify for the group stage of the Champions League, but not always. It depends on the Champions League winner's situation. If the Champions League winner would have qualified for the group stage based upon their domestic performance, Liverpool would get their group slot. Otherwise they would start in the playoffs. I do not see a clear statement as to whether England would get 2 or 3 Europa League slots under this scenario. Give the current league position of all the clubs that are still alive in the Champions League this scenario would only come into play if Wolfsburg won the Champions League.

 

For the rest of this discussion assume that both Liverpool and Manchester City win their European competitions:

 

If both would have qualified for the Europa League through their domestic performance, then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League and England only gets two Europa League spots.

 

If Liverpool does not qualify for the Europa League then the fourth place club in the Premier League is dropped to the group stage of the Europa League but England gets three Europa League spots. (This seems very strange to me but that is how I read the rules. In fact, if neither European winner qualified for the Europa League, England would get an extra entry into the Europa League for a total of nine entries into Europe--but that can't happen this year.)

 

I should mention that the rules are somewhat different for nations that do not normally have four Champions League representatives.

Thank you for this-

A lawyer's perspective to sort out a footballing forum question shows how many permutations are possible!

So we could qualify in 8th - provided Liverpool finish 7th or above and win the EL, and either Man Utd or West Ham finish above us and win the FA Cup.

8th can't qualify.

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I just had a go with the Grimsby Town predictor http://www.thefishy.co.uk/calculator0.php?Competition=1 and we finished 8th (not far behind Liverpool though).

Maybe we can sneak in under the fair play rules....

I just had a go with the Grimsby Town predictor http://www.thefishy.co.uk/calculator0.php?Competition=1 and we finished 8th (not far behind Liverpool though).

Using that I got a top 8 of:

1. Leicester

2. Arsenal

3. Tottenham

4. Man City

5. Man Utd

6. Liverpool

7. West Ham

8. Southampton

Which would be a pretty good but at the same time also very disappointing result for us.

At the bottom I got:

17. Newcastle

18. Norwich

19. Sunderland

20. Aston Villa

Europa is a comp that players are starting to want to play in and the standard being better, the best way we can qualify for CL will be from winning that comp, next season Chelsea and Liverpool will be much better and back in the top 5/6.

I would love 5th or 6 but cant see it happening.

I think it might be prudent to stay out of the Europa League. We should concentrate on our PL status.

Too obvious this one, darling Dalek

I would love to get in the EL at the expense of self-pity city, can you imagine the sea of candles...

We need a Tottenham win against Man Utd for starters

Liverpool 1-1 Stoke after 22 minutes at Anfield.

This gives a decent idea of what points tally may lead to what position...

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/Southampton.html

I think we need to win at least 4 of the last 5 and thats tough considering we play at Goodison which never ends well and also face City and Spurs at WHL.

If you have a spell like we did in Dec/Jan then its going to be bloody tough to finish in the top 6.

Games like Norwich away and Villa at home really stick out as being **** but then again Liverpool battered us for a good part of the recent game and got zero points.

Considering how underwhelming the excitement has been for me most of this season I'm amazed how the season is coming to a close. We could still push top 4!

This gives a decent idea of what points tally may lead to what position...

 

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/Southampton.html

so...

Everton W

Villa W

City D

Spurs D

Palace W

why not dream, right?

8th can't qualify.

 

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I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

Consider the following table:

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

Maybe we can sneak in under the fair play rules....

Wanyama - what a b@?!@?d!

Maybe we can sneak in under the fair play rules....

That type of qualification no longer exists.

http://www.espnfc.us/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/2539566/qualifying-for-europa-league-via-fair-play-soon-to-be-relic

I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

 

Consider the following table:

 

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

 

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

 

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

 

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

 

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

Someone gave a link some time ago (I can't be arsed to find it) for the rule that in this instance the PL gets one extra CL spot (Liverpool), but loses a EL spot to another country. So 8th cannot qualify for EL.

"It should also be stated," he added, "that an association with, for example, four places in the UEFA Champions League can increase their participation to five places should a club from their association win the UEFA Europa League in the previous season.

"If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Champions League via their domestic league, then the association remains with four places in the UEFA Champions League. If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Europa League via their domestic league, it results in five clubs participating in the UEFA Champions League, and two – not three – participating in the UEFA Europa League."

http://www.uefa.org/about-uefa/executive-committee/news/newsid=2226990.html

"It should also be stated," he added, "that an association with, for example, four places in the UEFA Champions League can increase their participation to five places should a club from their association win the UEFA Europa League in the previous season.

 

"If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Champions League via their domestic league, then the association remains with four places in the UEFA Champions League. If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Europa League via their domestic league, it results in five clubs participating in the UEFA Champions League, and two – not three – participating in the UEFA Europa League."

 

http://www.uefa.org/about-uefa/executive-committee/news/newsid=2226990.html

This makes sense, but I couldn't find it said so clearly in the actual rules. Also, it doesn't say what happens if that club doesn't qualify for Europe at all, but that would still not allow the 8th place club to qualify. It might mean that there are three Europa league spots to go with the five champions league spots.

I have read and reread the rules and this appears to be correct except in the rare circumstance but those circumstances might include Liverpool winning the Europa League and finishing in a Europa League spot (assuming 5th for purposes of illustration) and Manchester City finishing in the top seven and the FA Cup Winner finishing in the top seven.

 

Consider the following table:

 

1 Leicester

2 Tottenham

3 Arsenal

4 Manchester City (won League Cup)

5 Manchester United (won FA Cup)

6 Liverpool

7 West Ham

8 Southampton

 

1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 play in the Champions League

 

5 and 7 play in the Europa League

 

I cannot figure out whether 8 plays in the Europa League. The rules do not seem to say what happens. Possibly it will depend on whether Wolfsburg wins the Champions League.

 

Eighth place can also qualify for Europe when a club is disqualified from the competition before it starts for some reason such as a penalty for failure to comply with Financial Fair Play regulations.

I can't find it now but, IIRC, there are rare circumstances in which, rather than 8th getting Europa it goes to best-qualified in another country's league.

As stated by others above. Sorry, should have read first.

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My head hurts.

looks like we need 61 points for a 50-50 chance for 6th place, which would just happen to also best last season in place and points.

 

so...

 

Everton W

Villa W

City D

Spurs D

Palace W

 

why not dream, right?

my guess would be

Everton D

Villa W

City D

Spurs L

Palace W

in my opinion, more than 7 points is what we should expect of our team.

- city have de bruyne back and while CL is distraction, they'll finish the season better than people think.

- Spurs are unstoppable at the moment.

- Villa are just awful, but couldn't beat them at home so nothings guaranteed, but almost cert a win.

- Palace haven't had the best end to season, still a good team though some fading stars like bolasie - looked off the pace at the weekend. They've got tough games (away at saints arsenal man u and home to stoke) and I think it'll be a win.

- Everton I can't call, Lukaku is nowhere near his form earlier in the season, their last league win was 5 weeks ago against a dire villa side and before that, 2 whole months (stoke ).

I think it wouldn't be surprising if we got european football, at the same time, struggling sides or those out of form often seem to bounce back against saints , so no result is guaranteed. I think we have the squad to do anyone on the day, hoping we can finish top 8 would be satisfied with that.

This makes sense, but I couldn't find it said so clearly in the actual rules. Also, it doesn't say what happens if that club doesn't qualify for Europe at all, but that would still not allow the 8th place club to qualify. It might mean that there are three Europa league spots to go with the five champions league spots.

They only state that the EL spots go down from 3 to 2 if an EL winning team has already qualified for EL (and not CL) via their domestic league. This means that if Liverpool win the EL and don't finish in an EL qualifying position, then the PL still keeps 3 EL spots. That makes sense, otherwise a team would be robbed of Europe completely, and probably would kick up a fuss. Yes, a 4th placed team could lose a CL spot under certain circumstances, but they would still get an EL birth.

They only state that the EL spots go down from 3 to 2 if an EL winning team has already qualified for EL (and not CL) via their domestic league. This means that if Liverpool win the EL and don't finish in an EL qualifying position, then the PL still keeps 3 EL spots. That makes sense, otherwise a team would be robbed of Europe completely, and probably would kick up a fuss. Yes, a 4th placed team could lose a CL spot under certain circumstances, but they would still get an EL birth.

Good point and it is consistent with one of the weird parts of the rules where if both competition winners are from the same country but do not qualify for Europe through domestic competition, the nation (assuming for this purpose that it is a four champions League entry nation) gets 5 champions league spots and four Europa League spots which would mean that (ignoring cup qualifications) the clubs who finished 1-3 qualify for the Champions League and the clubs who finish 4-7 qualify for Europa. This certainly suggests an intent to ensure that a club that qualifies for Europe through domestic competition will get to play in Europe--albeit under certain circumstances it would drop from the Champions League to the Europa League.

I just cannot see us finishing anywhere other than 8th. We need to win 4 from 5 to have any chance imo and hope for others to drop points. Our terrible run in november/december killed our season really. Its been a strange one.

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I just cannot see us finishing anywhere other than 8th. We need to win 4 from 5 to have any chance imo and hope for others to drop points. Our terrible run in november/december killed our season really. Its been a strange one.

 

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We were 6th as recently as 14th February, so I'm not sure how what happened in December guaranteed us 8th.

We were 6th as recently as 14th February, so I'm not sure how what happened in December guaranteed us 8th.

Because other teams had games in hand, and still do.

Because other teams had games in hand, and still do.

Doesn't mean they will definetely win those games. Plus for example Man Utd and West Ham's "game in hand" is against each other on Tuesday 10th May, points will be lost for one or both of them they can't both get 3 points.

Because other teams had games in hand, and still do.

Actually on 14th February when we were 6th, everyone had played 26 matches.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2015-2016/table/2016-02-14

Using the predictor, I get....

Pos Team P GD Pts

1 Leicester 38 +29 81

2 Tottenham 38 +41 78

3 Man City 38 +34 75

4 Arsenal 38 +26 74

5 West Ham 38 +16 64

6 Man Utd 38 +12 64

7 Liverpool 38 +12 62

8 Southampton 38 +12 57

9 Chelsea 38 +10 55

10 Stoke 38 -5 54

11 Everton 38 +8 47

12 Bournemouth 38 -16 46

13 Swansea 38 -10 44

14 Watford 38 -9 42

15 West Brom 38 -14 42

16 Crystal Palace 38 -15 38

17 Norwich 38 -26 32

18 Sunderland 38 -26 32

19 Newcastle 38 -34 29

20 Aston Villa 38 -45 18

looks like we need 61 points for a 50-50 chance for 6th place, which would just happen to also best last season in place and points.

 

so...

 

Everton W

Villa W

City D

Spurs D

Palace W

 

why not dream, right?

City's Schedule

26/27-04-2016 CL Semis (1st leg)

01-05-2016 Southampton

03/04-05-2016 CL Semis (2nd leg)

Using the predictor, I get....

 

Pos Team P GD Pts

1 Leicester 38 +29 81

2 Tottenham 38 +41 78

3 Man City 38 +34 75

4 Arsenal 38 +26 74

5 West Ham 38 +16 64

6 Man Utd 38 +12 64

7 Liverpool 38 +12 62

8 Southampton 38 +12 57

9 Chelsea 38 +10 55

10 Stoke 38 -5 54

11 Everton 38 +8 47

12 Bournemouth 38 -16 46

13 Swansea 38 -10 44

14 Watford 38 -9 42

15 West Brom 38 -14 42

16 Crystal Palace 38 -15 38

17 Norwich 38 -26 32

18 Sunderland 38 -26 32

19 Newcastle 38 -34 29

20 Aston Villa 38 -45 18

I have the same unfortunately, such a shame to have Liverpool just finishing above us once again!

I played around with a few scenarios but looking at fixtures of West Ham, Man Utd and Liverpool I just do not see us finishing above any of them.

We can have a maximum of 5 CL spots so the only way the 4th placed team will be in the EL is if Man City finish outside the top 4 and win the CL and Liverpool win the EL.

Correct.