Premiership stadiums getting bigger, hope we don't get left behind

Putting aside the attendance issue, I do think like others in this thread have said that West Ham style reduction of tickets and we'd sell 40k+ for a lot of games). £99 ST tickets for under 16's for example.

 

There is a perception issue of being in an identikit 32k stadium means Saints are viewed at a level below where on the pitch we have been for the last 3 seasons in the top 7/8. This doesn't sole need to be about ticket income (which is a shrinking % of PL club income with the TV deal), a bigger stadium raises our profile and may generate more income from other advertising streams.

 

If the club followed through on something like what they commissioned AFL architects to do it would raise the profile of the club and allow us to increase the matching fanbase...

 

If we built that, St Mary's would no longer be viewed as an identikit with Coventry, Middlesbrough, Leicester, Derby etc. It would change perceptions of the club along with what we've already done at Staplewood.

One question...

WHERE?...

Where in Southampton could we put that??...

Keep in mind ease of access and locality.

Because I can't think where we'd build something of that grandeur.

apart from that plot of land up Hedge End on the way to Sainsbury's that's just been bought by a mystery buyer..

Saints?...

One question...

 

WHERE?...

 

Where in Southampton could we put that??...

 

Keep in mind ease of access and locality.

 

Because I can't think where we'd build something of that grandeur.

 

apart from that plot of land up Hedge End on the way to Sainsbury's that's just been bought by a mystery buyer..

 

Saints?...

The pictures I posted above are of a redeveloped St Mary's stadium. Not a stadium relocation.

The pictures I posted above are of a redeveloped St Mary's stadium. Not a stadium relocation.

What?..all that outside space aswell?...

The Stadium is on a major industrial road.

Businesses nearby rely on it.

Lorries are up and down that road 24X7 and it's major connector..

Major Redevelopment around the whole area would be required for that example (exactly as it appears) to happen.

The whole area would be shut off whilst developments are happening...for months.

Can't see the council approving that.

Not forgetting West Ham will have the advantage of a large shiny new stadium without the debt. So where even the likes of Arsenal suffered from having to pay out millions (Spurs will as well) West ham will start to benefit from extra revenue virtually straight away. All though they have discounted 1000's of tickets to ensure it sells out, and this obviously reduces the additional income.

It would be good to hear if there are any development plans afoot. But I'm sure the club has said previously we will need to achieve sell out crowds for a number of seasons. I still think the above images look great.

I actually think we could. But not in a way which would really create the revenue we'd be seeking to pay for the extension and progress as I think it would have to involve a reduction in ticket price.

Surely it's not just about revenue. What encouraging people to see live football, instead of the sold out signs up so frequently.

Putting aside the attendance issue, I do think like others in this thread have said that West Ham style reduction of tickets and we'd sell 40k+ for a lot of games). £99 ST tickets for under 16's for example.

 

There is a perception issue of being in an identikit 32k stadium means Saints are viewed at a level below where on the pitch we have been for the last 3 seasons in the top 7/8. This doesn't sole need to be about ticket income (which is a shrinking % of PL club income with the TV deal), a bigger stadium raises our profile and may generate more income from other advertising streams.

 

If the club followed through on something like what they commissioned AFL architects to do it would raise the profile of the club and allow us to increase the matching fanbase...

 

 

 

 

 

If we built that, St Mary's would no longer be viewed as an identikit with Coventry, Middlesbrough, Leicester, Derby etc. It would change perceptions of the club along with what we've already done at Staplewood.

Did the club actually commission this design? Looks stunning.........

Did the club actually commission this design? Looks stunning.........

I think they did but it was back when NC was in charge iirc so I doubt its on the cards now.

With cheaper season tickets like WHU we'd easily fill a 45k stadium every week.

 

More families could afford to bring their kids

More young people could afford it

Older folk might be able to make it work

 

It wouldn't be such a big decision as it is now. Any argument about not filling it is closely linked to the cost of attending, not the size of the fanbase.

 

Come on saints, be brave, make a difference and get more people in and get the next generations involved as well by making it financially easier for them to be at each match.

Spending a lot of money to expand the stadium to fill it with cheaper seats makes no football business sense.

Maybe but I was surprised West Ham have sold 52,000 STs next season

I was too but they do have a large fan base in East London Essex and East Anglia

 

Apparently 10000 are childrens tickets but they may well be a force in the future

 

 

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/west-ham-confirm-season-ticket-7929789

Do not underestimate the power of London being big and a tourist destination.

Spending a lot of money to expand the stadium to fill it with cheaper seats makes no football business sense.

Have you no heart?

Spending a lot of money to expand the stadium to fill it with cheaper seats makes no football business sense.

neither does paying someone £250k a week to kick a bag of wind

Have you no heart?

Yes. I do. My heart counsels prudence in expenditures so we don't face the problems of the past. Of course, if Liebherr was willing to just pay for the new (or expanded) stadium out of her pocket then sure, go for it.

neither does paying someone £250k a week to kick a bag of wind

Note I said football business sense. Paying someone that much--assuming it is the right someone and the right club--does make football business sense. It probably does not make normal business sense, of course.

My plan!

Buy off all the land from Woolston Bridge along past the concrete works in front of St Mary's along with that block of flats opposite to the ground and turn it into green area, restaraunts, marina, riverfront. Make the ground capacity 40000.

Finally someone gets it. The kids are the key to the future bigger fan base.

Advantage of a bigger ground would be more room for younger fans. You'd fill it with cheap or even free tickets for schools etc. Short term it might cost a bit, but you can't put a price on created new generations of fans for a football club, it's ignored too often. Every effort should be made to ensure the stadium is packed every week. Plus, if you treat fans well when things are going well they'll stick with you when they aren't. We had ok attendances in League 1, but it could have been better. For me it makes no difference, I'd support them in the conference, it;s about saints not the opposition. But I grew up going every week and it being cheap. £70 my first season ticket in the early 90s.

Did the club actually commission this design? Looks stunning.........

We should be doing this. This is exactly what the club needs.

My vision.

Get rid of the industry from Itchen Bridge tot Bitterne and block of flats in front of ground and turn it to restaurants, bars, hotels.

Outside the ground is a massive eyrsore.

And yet 30 percent of season ticket holders have not renewed

The pictures I posted above are of a redeveloped St Mary's stadium. Not a stadium relocation.

'He' already knew that....

Bite = bite + 1

And yet 30 percent of season ticket holders have not renewed

really? that many?

I would imagine that to be the case just before the renewal deadline every season, I'm a bit surprised it's not higher as most people want to keep hold of their money for as long as possible. By quarter to midnight on Tuesday, I'd suggest it will be a lot nearer 100% take-up.

Which clubs, similar in size and support to ourselves, are expanding without tax payers assistance?

It's all about getting future fans in. Oh, and didn't you call me a c**t on another post. No respect.

Oh, and other clubs who we wish to compete with in the top half with are Liverpool, Spurs, Leicester, Crystal Palace even.

'He' already knew that....

 

Bite = bite + 1

Nope.

It was called conversation..but everything I say is deemed troll-bait.

He didn't actually say it was redevelopment in his post..so pray-tell how exactly was I supposed to know that?...

And the "he" in inverted commas..am I supposed to be a woman as well now?....

That escalated quickly!

My vision.

Get rid of the industry from Itchen Bridge tot Bitterne and block of flats in front of ground and turn it to restaurants, bars, hotels.

Outside the ground is a massive eyrsore.

As far as I am aware the majority/all of the land on the west side of the Itchen from Woolston Bridge to Northam Bridges is council owned

They would like to 'gentrify' the area especially in front of St Marys and I am sure there is a draft plan of what the result would be following the relocation of the cement/aggregate operations in the area

The problem, as I understand it is two fold.

First most of the leases are long term and secondly, currently, there is no alternative location to accommodate the relocated businesses.

This could have been achieved fairly easily under the failed Dibden Bay scheme proposed several years ago

I do know that Cortese was involved in talks about the opportunities for opening up the river frontage in front of the stadium but not sure how this has progressed in recent times

It would be great if the opportunity could be progressed

Personally I think WHU have shown that if you price season tickets with in reach of the majority then you'll sell loads. If you had £300 adult STs and £99 for kids then even the arch cynic in me believes we would effortlessly sell out 40k every week with what? 3/4k away fans?

Big cross on the stadium thread bingo card everyone. MLG has posted the pictures.

Big cross on the bingo card - CBF has had a pop at MLG.

Sure I have said it before but England could learn a lot from Germany and Italy in regards to stadiums. With all the tv money flying around and players on £100k+ a week gate receipts are just a drop in the ocean. If the tickets are on par with those countries we will not have any issues selling 40k+ tickets a game. I know a ton of people who can't justify paying £40 to watch one game. I noticed that that historic mega giants Dynamo Dresden had an average of 28k (30k stadium) this season in division three.

I have little doubt that were tickets prices less expensive then attendance would increase - I would certainly come more often. It seems equaly likley that even at today's prices additional seats would often sell as fans like to sit with their friends and family and this becomes virtualy impossible whenever St Mary's is even nearly full.

However, whether a 'build it and they will come' policy makes financial sense depends on the costs of expanding the stadium, our abilty to cope with the inevitable disruption this process would cause, and how prudent assuming that SFC will retain its current PL status for years to come is viewed by the owner.

So hard to say then. However, if we are really serious in our stated ambition to grow the club then a risk worth taking perhaps?

Sometimes the only difference between a risk worth taking and a sound business investment is hindsight.

He didn't actually say it was redevelopment in his post..so pray-tell how exactly was I supposed to know that?...

I did infer it was St Mary's at the end of my post... "If we built that, St Mary's would no longer be viewed as an identikit stadium". If we moved, it wouldn't be St Mary's.

Spending a lot of money to expand the stadium to fill it with cheaper seats makes no football business sense.

West Ham have sold 10,000 under 16 year old tickets for £99. If a decent % of those kids get hooked and become season ticket holders when they become adults you sell them adult season tickets for a higher price. It helps build the fanbase in the long term.

Plus a bigger stadium raises the profile of the club, makes us look more ambitious to players and sponsors and more fans at games = more from additional revenue streams, food, programmes, megastore etc.

I did infer it was St Mary's at the end of my post... "If we built that, St Mary's would no longer be viewed as an identikit stadium". If we moved, it wouldn't be St Mary's.

 

 

 

West Ham have sold 10,000 under 16 year old tickets for £99. If a decent % of those kids get hooked and become season ticket holders when they become adults you sell them adult season tickets for a higher price. It helps build the fanbase in the long term.

 

Plus a bigger stadium raises the profile of the club, makes us look more ambitious to players and sponsors and more fans at games = more from additional revenue streams, food, programmes, megastore etc.

Ok well I didn't read it like that.

It depends where it was being built.

If it was staying in St Mary's the name wouldn't change but I couldn't and still can't for the life of me see how that's gonna work.

There just isn't that sort of space.

Businesses rely on that road.

I should know, my Dad owns a business right on it. You can throw a stone at St Marys Stadium.

I really wasn't trolling, despite what "trousers" is implying.

Genuine convo.

Apologize though.

As far as I am aware the majority/all of the land on the west side of the Itchen from Woolston Bridge to Northam Bridges is council owned

 

They would like to 'gentrify' the area especially in front of St Marys and I am sure there is a draft plan of what the result would be following the relocation of the cement/aggregate operations in the area

 

The problem, as I understand it is two fold.

 

First most of the leases are long term and secondly, currently, there is no alternative location to accommodate the relocated businesses.

 

This could have been achieved fairly easily under the failed Dibden Bay scheme proposed several years ago

 

I do know that Cortese was involved in talks about the opportunities for opening up the river frontage in front of the stadium but not sure how this has progressed in recent times

 

It would be great if the opportunity could be progressed

You're correct. It is.

As per my post a few posts up.

The council wouldn't approve it in a million years.

Businesses would definitely oppose it.

LOADS of people are employed in that area and that will trump a new Stadium all day long.

Unless SFC wanna foot the redundancies because the whole area is shut off while it's happening and businesses can't keep people on.

If the only way to fill an extra 10k is to drop prices for the whole ground then financially there is little point and it almost certainly would not be worth the debt we would have to take on for the construction. It´s a total non starter for me regardless of whether or not we could fill it. What is our waiting list for season ticket? Is there even one? When that gets to 10k perhaps it is worth reopening this conversation but I don´t see that happening any time soon. As others have pointed out ticket revenue is a smaller and smaller part of annual incomes now.

The West Ham case is totally different as they are getting use of a taxpayer built stadium for a minimal outlay (12m i think and reasonable rent). They also can sell the current land at upton park which will be many times more valuable than the land at st marys to finance the deal. We can argue about the fairness of the West Ham deal all we like but it should not be used as a reason for us to get delusions of grandeur and make a huge financial error.

We will never be Big-Time until we have a Harbour Potty-Dome...

Does anyone know if the river is integral to the operation of the cement works? A waterside location near the city centre is usually prime territory for property developers. I'd have thought relocating the cement works to the outskirts of town, near to the motorway would have made sense. This is based on nothing more than A-level geography.

Does anyone know if the river is integral to the operation of the cement works? A waterside location near the city centre is usually prime territory for property developers. I'd have thought relocating the cement works to the outskirts of town, near to the motorway would have made sense. This is based on nothing more than A-level geography.

It's been tried many, many times.

Developers have been all over that for years.

It's been tried many, many times.

 

Developers have been all over that for years.

Developers need cement too. Just saying...

Maybe but I was surprised West Ham have sold 52,000 STs next season

Their fan base is bigger than ours though...

Their fan base is bigger than ours though...

I agree its bigger, but its no where near 30,000 bigger than ours.

They have been selling £99 season tickets to under 16's and adult ones for £289. If we did the same we'd shift a lot more, but our prices are significantly higher.

The thing is, nothing last forever and the premier league will not be top dog or have the tv money forever.

We need to expand the stadium and have that base of fans for when that day comes.

I think I am right in thinking that there were 10,000 of the U16 STs (the £99 ones). Presumably you also need to buy an adult one to accompany the u16 ones. So say that that's another 8-9k (presuming that some buy more than 1 of the £99 tickets unless there is some restriction to one per adult ST). So nigh on 20k. Then you have those on the waiting list, apparently there are 30k, as well as those who went to Leyton Orient to account for.

The thing is, nothing last forever and the premier league will not be top dog or have the tv money forever.

 

We need to expand the stadium and have that base of fans for when that day comes.

Slightly torturous logic, we need to expand the stadium in case football becomes less popular at some time in the future? I think you'll have to run that one by the bank manager again.

Slightly torturous logic, we need to expand the stadium in case football becomes less popular at some time in the future? I think you'll have to run that one by the bank manager again.

Also, given that nothing lasts forever, why assume we will still be in the Premier League when it loses popularity.

On the other hand, building a new stadium on higher ground to avoid the consequences of global warming might be a good idea.

Does anyone know if the river is integral to the operation of the cement works? A waterside location near the city centre is usually prime territory for property developers. I'd have thought relocating the cement works to the outskirts of town, near to the motorway would have made sense. This is based on nothing more than A-level geography.

I think the likes of Hanson and CEMEX rely on the discharge of sea dredged aggregate as part of their business

So they will require the availability of a suitable vessel berths to unload and store the raw material

I remember having conversations with people back in the 90's who said that we were wasting our time going for a 25.000 stadium at Stoneham because we didn't always sell out every week at the Dell with a 15.000 capacity. Then Stoneham collapsed and St Mary's came up as an option with a 32.000 capacity some people (Saints fans included) were saying there would be loads of empty seats BUT WE FILLED IT MOST WEEKS!.....Now, i know at the moment we get gates sometimes a couple of thousand short of capacity BUT I know that this club could get 45k if the seats were sensibly priced and the club were showing some genuine ambition. I feel totally comfortable with saying this.

When Saints played Man City a couple of weeks back we also had the 40th anniversary celebrations of the 1976 FA Cup win. I did not have a ticket for the City game but i went in to see the 76 boys off from Guildhall square. I stayed in town during the game and i was amazed at how many Saints fans were in pubs around town and in town itself, there were loads of people knocking around with Saints shirts on. Don't think that every single Saints fan is in St Mary's on a matchday, there are loads of fans who for whatever reason don't go to games. I personally know lots of people who at the moment don't go to Saints games but they are very much interested in whats happening at the club.

In short this club has a lot more support than people realise! 45k is doable and i reckon we may be able to go beyond that figure.

With the WHU pricing I genuinely think we could fill 50k.

However, I think we should be expanding our stadium to showcase ourselves as a bigger club, and also, we could cheapen the tickets to let more of our fans, especially those that are priced out, attend.

 

also, in 100 years time, will we see 150/200k capacity stadiums? Or will the human race die out by then

Nah, we would be playing Hoverball then, and the Team would be the UK Lions, at the bottom of the Galactic League Unos. Pompey of course, would still be in the 3rd Division.

I think it is a case of if we start accending further, like we have done, and we regualrly get close to a sell out, that would be the time to expand. Now it would be difficult to put a business case.

I remember having conversations with people back in the 90's who said that we were wasting our time going for a 25.000 stadium at Stoneham because we didn't always sell out every week at the Dell with a 15.000 capacity. Then Stoneham collapsed and St Mary's came up as an option with a 32.000 capacity some people (Saints fans included) were saying there would be loads of empty seats BUT WE FILLED IT MOST WEEKS!.....Now, i know at the moment we get gates sometimes a couple of thousand short of capacity BUT I know that this club could get 45k if the seats were sensibly priced and the club were showing some genuine ambition. I feel totally comfortable with saying this.

 

When Saints played Man City a couple of weeks back we also had the 40th anniversary celebrations of the 1976 FA Cup win. I did not have a ticket for the City game but i went in to see the 76 boys off from Guildhall square. I stayed in town during the game and i was amazed at how many Saints fans were in pubs around town and in town itself, there were loads of people knocking around with Saints shirts on. Don't think that every single Saints fan is in St Mary's on a matchday, there are loads of fans who for whatever reason don't go to games. I personally know lots of people who at the moment don't go to Saints games but they are very much interested in whats happening at the club.

 

In short this club has a lot more support than people realise! 45k is doable and i reckon we may be able to go beyond that figure.

Southampton is a one club city and as such we actually have a very good support outside of those that go regularly.

I know myself a good 6/7 mates that are born and bred mushes who used to go regularly but now watch streams in pubs.

The same lot will make an occasional game a season and maybe an away if thy can get tickets.

The issue for them, the same as many, isn't the size of the ground, it's the cost. That's why they pick and choose and do only a couple a season.

I'm sure you're correct in saying that we could, and can, turn out numbers around or even in excess of 45k for single games and I don't think anyone has argued that.

The issue comes with can we do it regularly across the course of the season. In my mind the answer to that is that without a significant reduction in the price of ticket to around £15-£20 I don't think we could.

People need to remember that on the whole Southampton itself isn't a rich city, and whilst we're lucky that it's normal on the estates that make up a fairy substantial part of Southampton to support saints, most of those there can't afford to go every week.

Nah, we would be playing Hoverball then, and the Team would be the UK Lions, at the bottom of the Galactic League Unos. Pompey of course, would still be in the 3rd Division.

 

I think it is a case of if we start accending further, like we have done, and we regualrly get close to a sell out, that would be the time to expand. Now it would be difficult to put a business case.

Au contraire there's never been a better time to expand, and that window may never come again. 6-year upward trend, massive feel-good factor, new TV money , stable and well-run, excellent succession planning (we've hit the jackpot with our last FOUR managers), we have demonstrated that we are able to sustain and in fact increase footballing performance at the same time as running a financially sustainable model. We have an ageing fanbase that will need supplementing by another generation that has the habit of going to live and affordable football.

Not saying I necessarily agree with all that and there's a bit of devil's advocate in there but I do think if you look at other clubs and project forward 5-10 years we risk being stuck in a modern equivalent of a 30,000 seat Dell while all our rivals are playing in 60-000 seat stadia. 'Risk' being the operative word, not sure there's an easy answer either way.

Sometimes the only difference between a risk worth taking and a sound business investment is hindsight.

!

At the heart of the problem/discussion is that St Mary's is about the right size. Probably rather too small, but not enormously so. If the capacity was 35,000 or so, we probably wouldn't be having this question.

To justify a major redevelopment, you'd need to be confident of making a real leap forward. The move from the Dell to St Mary's clearly achieved that. But I doubt we would have left the Dell if we felt we needed an 18,000 rather than the 15,000 capacity we had.

To my mind, a major overhaul would need a business plan involving attendances being well over 40,000, and possibly towards 50,000, on a very consistent basis.

I remember

similar. The club itself were budgeting roughly for a third of games at 18k, a third at 24k and a third at 28k or above (source: director Brian Hunt).

As to potential fans I'd like to see more kids as they're the future, and more discounts for slightly older age groups as people start work at a later age these days, but as you point out there's loads of later generations interested too. I took an older, less mobile lady to the Europa matches as a favour although it was a bit of a palaver with transport. She used to go out with Terry Paine many years ago and still follows the Saints. In all between these different groups there are many irregular attendees and potential fans. The club must have an idea of all the indviduals with a customer number and they can crunch the statistics - increase single match attendees to two, what happens if we can convert 10 per cent of 3/4 game people to season tickets - and so forth. With low interest rates and a not particularly vibrant building industry (?calling SecretsiteAgent..) it's not a bad time to build.