View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
129. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    26 20.16%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    7 5.43%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.55%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    74 57.36%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.88%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    2 1.55%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 3.10%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.55%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    7 5.43%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #13851

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?
    Parliament is broadly reflective of how the country voted in 2017 and will be reflective of how the country votes again in a GE Nov or after. Thatís separate from a single issue referendum. As others have already posted, constituency MPs need to do what is best for their constituents, and No Deal is likely to be very bad for many, and is at best a huge leap in the dark. Other MPs from leave-voting areas will try to represent significant segments of their constituents eg Fisheries or agriculture in the Fens.

    So the way forward is to extend the deadline, irrespective of whatever Boris has promised the ERG, Cummings and 100k Tory members, to negotiate a compromise so the country can actually Brexit and move on. It sounds like there is some modest progress with Ireland today so perhaps he can do it when he gets Cummings and the DT off his back and puts the megaphone down. After all, the referendum was 52/48 so as a number of the more sensible Tory Brexiteers have said, compromise was always likely.

  2. #13852

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    French minister: EU won’t grant UK Brexit delay as things stand
    But UK chancellor says Boris Johnson wants a deal, not an extension.
    By ZOSIA WANAT 9/8/19, 12:07 PM CET Updated 9/9/19, 1:43 PM CET
    Brussels won’t grant the U.K. a Brexit extension beyond October 31 if circumstances remain the same, Jean-Yves Le Drian, France's foreign minister, said Sunday.

    “The British must tell us what they want,” he told Europe1 radio, Reuters reported. “We are not going to do this [grant an extension] every three months.”

  3. #13853

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    What's going on at the moment means nothing, the real business starts when we have an election. The election is the referendum you've been waiting for, so do you vote for a remain party that is led by one of the biggest euro sceptics in Parliament and has a policy on Brexit that could have been thought up by Baldric or a party that wants a referendum on any deal that is agreed but has a leader that said she will not respect a vote that goes against her views, very democratic. I've voted Labour all my life but feel the party has not respected the views of a large number of it's traditional voters, they'll get destroyed in the Labour voting areas in the north. Despite everything that's gone over the last week I can't see the Tories being stopped, if Boris has to get into bed with Farage to get a majority then the actions of the rebel alliance this week may well be the catalyst for a no deal brexit.
    If people in those constituencies think the Tory party version 2019 is going to help them and millions of other working families they are in for a major disappointment. It would mean Barnsley and ex-mining areas voting for Thatcherites - not saying it is impossible but would destroy families. Is a No Deal Brexit really that emotionally important that families will put themselves even further in debt just to keep the Sun happy? With a little patience, there can be a Brexit that is of a cliff edge for working people, and that includes me and my family.

    I can understand why people switched from Labour to Tory in the 80s through Right to Buy, there was something tangible whatever your views on the impact on housing policy overall. I suspect what people are trying to do is demand a stake in the economy feeling they donít have one at present. That has nothing to do with the EU, so whatever Brexit does happen, and whoever governs, they will need to find a way to offer people more of a stake in the economy again. There is a fair bit of research showing that the largest Brexit voting regions want to see a dividend.

  4. #13854

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    There are going to be some disappointed people if Boris gets his way..


    A majority of both Conservative (55%) and Leave (60%) voters, however, think a no-deal Brexit would result in a clean break from the EU, meaning the country could then focus on something else https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/re

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    There are going to be some disappointed people if Boris gets his way..


    A majority of both Conservative (55%) and Leave (60%) voters, however, think a no-deal Brexit would result in a clean break from the EU, meaning the country could then focus on something else https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/re

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    Indeed. Best news of the evening was confirmation that the Lib Dems will campaign on a pure revoke ticket. I hope they use "Make It Stop" as their campaign slogan and go all out to tell people that this is the only way to put an actual end to this.

    Its not a message for everyone but there are 16m people that might be quite receptive and at least it's clear and unambiguous.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Indeed. Best news of the evening was confirmation that the Lib Dems will campaign on a pure revoke ticket. I hope they use "Make It Stop" as their campaign slogan and go all out to tell people that this is the only way to put an actual end to this. Its not a message for everyone but there are 16m people that might be quite receptive and at least it's clear and unambiguous.
    Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.

  7. #13857

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.
    You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

    Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

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  8. #13858

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

    Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

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    It's the obvious solution.

    Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.

  9. #13859

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    It's the obvious solution.

    Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.
    What if it is anther close one, do we go through with the shall we shan't we for another 3 years? What if the vote in Parliament comes down to just one vote on the deal, it will stay as a running sore forever.
    Revoke Article 50 maybe the only option, I suspect the Europeans will press the button anyway and rightly so, they have more important things to worry about.

  10. #13860

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    It's the obvious solution.

    Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.
    Absolutely - they seem to be running scared of a second referendum.

  11. #13861

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    What if it is anther close one, do we go through with the shall we shan't we for another 3 years? What if the vote in Parliament comes down to just one vote on the deal, it will stay as a running sore forever.
    Revoke Article 50 maybe the only option, I suspect the Europeans will press the button anyway and rightly so, they have more important things to worry about.
    Then we stay, and the next election will be fought based on another referendum, but this one will have rules as to the majority needed to leave (55-45 or something like that).

  12. #13862

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

    Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

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    I would vote libdem if I had a vote, despite having never voted that way before. However, I think they will still suffer the same problem they always have. Vote percentage in the general population means nothing in a GE. That's why UKIP won f all despite all of their support. The libdems will be challenging strongly all over the country and take a lot of second places, but they won't quite be the biggest party in many constituencies, so it'll mean nothing at all.

  13. #13863

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    Tactical voting could decide this election.
    Many will not vote for who they actually want - but could keep out who they really don't want!

  14. Default

    Agree with posts 13858-61. We don't want or need an election at this time. Let's see what the current will of the people 2019 is, with a referendum based on revised cost of exit.
    Then the existing government will carry out the will of the people now.
    And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.

  15. #13865

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Then we stay, and the next election will be fought based on another referendum, but this one will have rules as to the majority needed to leave (55-45 or something like that).
    Which is where Cameron fckd up in the original referendum. As it was originally “advisory” it should have stipulated that a substantial majority in favour of leaving would trigger Brexit. Still, the genie is out of the bottle now and there is no going back. I would prefer that there was a second referendum. We know more about the issues and inherent problems now and I think it is fair to say that democracy is better served by a more informed electorate. Remainders are saying that people have changed their minds. If true then the vote will show that. If the Leavers win again, especially by a larger majority, Parliament will have to get on with it, no matter what the majority of the MPs think. The unfortunate thing is that it will be a one issue election yet there are many domestic issues that it should also be fought on but will be sidelined.

  16. #13866

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    The unfortunate thing is that it will be a one issue election
    That's the problem, it never is a one issue election because people have different priorities.

    If Boris wins then it would be probably because people don't want Corbyn as PM, not because they want a no deal Brexit. There will be Remainer Tories who vote blue just like there will be brexiteer labour voters who would rather die than vote for Boris.

  17. #13867

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    I would vote libdem if I had a vote, despite having never voted that way before. However, I think they will still suffer the same problem they always have. Vote percentage in the general population means nothing in a GE. That's why UKIP won f all despite all of their support. The libdems will be challenging strongly all over the country and take a lot of second places, but they won't quite be the biggest party in many constituencies, so it'll mean nothing at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    Tactical voting could decide this election.
    Many will not vote for who they actually want - but could keep out who they really don't want!
    Wouldn't surprise me to see someone come up with a website that tells people exactly what party to get behind in each constituency if they want to see either a second referendum or article 50 revoked. If remainers can club together and treat it as a single issue election then that scuppers Boris to an extent (if he's still having problems with Brexit party anyway). Wouldn't even need the explicit support of the individual party leaders to work either.

  18. #13868

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.
    Is that the same minor party that was in Government in WWI? The one led by war winning Liberal Lloyd George. Like all parties they have evolved but you can not rewrite history, and you are not good at forecasting future events, best to just stay in moment!

  19. #13869

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    It's the obvious solution.

    Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.
    Precisely. I'm really not sure what the outcome of a second referendum would be, but at least people wouldn't be under the impression that leaving would be painless and immediately better.

    Plus the one thing a second referendum isn't is undemocratic. If everyone feels exactly the same then result stands, if they don't then surely it's a good thing we checked?! Unfortunately the main thing to come out of this is that roughly half the population will feel let down by and angry towards the other half regardless of how it ends up, and I struggle to see how that rift will ever be healed.

  20. #13870

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonraker View Post
    Is that the same minor party that was in Government in WWI? The one led by war winning Liberal Lloyd George. Like all parties they have evolved but you can not rewrite history, and you are not good at forecasting future events, best to just stay in moment!
    Are there any voters still alive that voted for them then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    Plus the one thing a second referendum isn't is undemocratic.
    Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH

  22. #13872

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH
    If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

    IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!

  23. #13873

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    Quote Originally Posted by the saint in winchester View Post
    And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.
    If it's good enough for the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.....,.

  24. #13874

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH
    How can a vote, now that we have alot more information, possibly be undemocratic? It's just common sense.

    The problem is we have headbangers on both side obsessed with 'winning' when fact is if we make the wrong choice we all lose.

    I have always been quite pro-brexit, I certainly understand the reasons why people wanted to leave. But now we know what we do, it seems a Barmy choice when you weigh up the possible risks v rewards.

  25. #13875

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    How can a vote, now that we have alot more information, possibly be undemocratic? It's just common sense.
    Don't forget who you're debating with.

  26. #13876

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

    IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!
    Excellent analogy.

  27. #13877

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    One of the upsides of Brexit is that whilst the politicians are embroiled in the political mess, they pretty much leave the country to get with things unhindered. And we are doing OK with wages growth at the highest level for over 10 years and unemployment continuing to fall...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49646201

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

    IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!
    No it isn't. I'm afraid that the daily award for the most crap analogy is yours, unless somebody comes up with a worse one.

    Nobody has seen what leaving the EU means, because nobody like us has ever done it before. What you mean, is that some people are getting cold feet because of the constant drip,drip of project fear in the media saying that leaving with no deal will be a catastrophe, talk of cliff edges and other such alarmist phraseology. An equal number of voters is probably switching to the leave camp because they are heartily fed-up with the delaying tactics employed by the remoaners, who if they were honest, would admit that they don't want it delayed but overturned.

    Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years before we could vote on it again, but you lot are bleating about another referendum before we have even left. Frankly, it's pathetic. Democratic it certainly isn't.

  29. #13879

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Democratic it certainly isn't.
    What has democracy to do with politics ? How many Governments are elected by a majority of the votes cast, let alone a majority of the Electorate ? How many MPs similarly within their constituencies ? Has there ever been a Parliament where the relative numbers of MPs for each party reflected the proportional share of the vote ? How many bills passed through Parliament have never been part of an election manifesto, and hence subject to voter scrutiny and approval ?
    Last edited by badgerx16; 10-09-2019 at 04:15 PM. Reason: corrected logic

  30. #13880

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    Les having a torrid tuesday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    No it isn't. I'm afraid that the daily award for the most crap analogy is yours, unless somebody comes up with a worse one.

    Nobody has seen what leaving the EU means, because nobody like us has ever done it before. What you mean, is that some people are getting cold feet because of the constant drip,drip of project fear in the media saying that leaving with no deal will be a catastrophe, talk of cliff edges and other such alarmist phraseology. An equal number of voters is probably switching to the leave camp because they are heartily fed-up with the delaying tactics employed by the remoaners, who if they were honest, would admit that they don't want it delayed but overturned.

    Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years before we could vote on it again, but you lot are bleating about another referendum before we have even left. Frankly, it's pathetic. Democratic it certainly isn't.
    So you think leaving the EU with no deal is either not a problem or not likely? Because while you are right that a lot of people clamouring for a second referendum ultimately want us to stay, the main gripe is that we have gone from a very marginal vote to leave based on claims that "of course the EU won't want us to leave without a deal" to a very real prospect of not having one, so that is clearly not the same situation.

    If you have endured the EU for over 40 years (what exactly have we 'endured' though? I've long thought the issues of this country are to do with our own government decisions rather than the EU...) then that suggests you are close to (or in) retirement and therefore aren't facing the challenge of building a career or bringing up a family. In some ways, I guess that's a win for you, so well done.

  32. #13882

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years
    And you accuse remainers of using alarmist phraseology?

    You make it sound like the EU is some kind of brutal, oppressive, occupying force which has enslaved the British people FFS.

  33. #13883

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Les having a torrid tuesday.
    I definitely should have taken heed of the 'enter at your own risk' part of the thread title.

  34. #13884

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    Quote Originally Posted by the saint in winchester View Post
    Agree with posts 13858-61.
    And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.
    What about 51%, that's a majority isn't it? How about 50.01%, not huge, but still a majority?

    SO many questions, so few answers, surely the MOST democratic thing would be to put it to the people, let them decide if there should be another referendum, then, if they say yes, have another vote to determine the majority percentage. It's not like we've had many trips to the polling station in recent years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    I definitely should have taken heed of the 'enter at your own risk' part of the thread title.
    Les is like a s**t Medusa with his exasperating mediocrity and pigheadedness. You know you’re above it but he still manages to rope you into the most barren and futile of conversations. It’s quite a talent really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Les having a torrid tuesday.
    Your usual MO. A few curt words designed to puff yourself up, taking no more than a few moments to type and adding little else. Well done, mate. You're so clever.

  37. #13887

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post

    If you have endured the EU for over 40 years (what exactly have we 'endured' though? I've long thought the issues of this country are to do with our own government decisions rather than the EU...) then that suggests you are close to (or in) retirement and therefore aren't facing the challenge of building a career or bringing up a family. In some ways, I guess that's a win for you, so well done.
    As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

    Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

  38. #13888

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

    Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?
    Are your kids embarrassed of your views Les? Do they know the utter s**te you post on here? It wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened.

  39. #13889

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    Quote Originally Posted by revolution saint View Post
    Wouldn't surprise me to see someone come up with a website that tells people exactly what party to get behind in each constituency if they want to see either a second referendum or article 50 revoked. If remainers can club together and treat it as a single issue election then that scuppers Boris to an extent (if he's still having problems with Brexit party anyway). Wouldn't even need the explicit support of the individual party leaders to work either.
    It's already happening.

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    Phil Hogan has been made the new EU trade commissioner. A bit cheeky bantz from the EU there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Your usual MO. A few curt words designed to puff yourself up, taking no more than a few moments to type and adding little else. Well done, mate. You're so clever.
    But he's right you're having a torrid time. A lot of sensible, logical consensus on here today regarding the futility of a GE, invalidity of the last referendum given evidence of lying at the time and new knowledge of the practical difficulties of leaving, clearly argued. And no effective response - just the usual slogans and irrational outpourings.

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  42. #13892

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt.
    When you use the word 'endure' to describe life as an EU citizen, you make it sound like it has been a massive hardship. Yet our membership has been overwhelmingly beneficial in just about all areas of life.

    Our economy has benefited hugely from being part of the trading bloc. Our natural environment has been protected by EU directives that you can bet your life successive Tory governments would have ripped up if they could have. Our society has been enhanced by things like workers rights which we now take for granted.

    So when you choose words like 'endure' to describe all that, you are making a ridiculous over-exaggeration which completely misrepresents the reality of the situation. Therefore, 'alarmist' is an accurate way of describing your choice of language.
    Last edited by Sheaf Saint; 10-09-2019 at 06:12 PM.

  43. #13893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

    Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?
    I’ve been working for 15 years, so perhaps I missed the bad years... but if the last 15 years have been good that’s more relevant, right?

    I understand the feeling that the government messed up the negotiations, but they did, not sure how that can be rescued or changed now.

  44. #13894

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    When you use the word 'endure' to describe life as an EU citizen, you make it sound like it has been a massive hardship. Yet our membership has been overwhelmingly beneficial in just about all areas of life.

    Our economy has benefited hugely from being part of the trading bloc. Our natural environment has been protected by EU directives that you can bet your life successive Tory governments would have ripped up if they could have. Our society has been enhanced by things like workers rights which we now take for granted.

    So when you choose words like 'endure' to describe all that, you are making a ridiculous over-exaggeration which completely misrepresents the reality of the situation. Therefore, 'alarmist' is an accurate way of describing your choice of language.
    We should have had you as Remainís Campaign Director, would have wiped the floor with Cummings and co. Miles better to state the positives than Project Fear. The lies on the NHS would have taken plenty in still but forearmed is forewarned and a big vulnerable point for Boris now in a future election in relation to any kind of trust and credibility.

  45. #13895

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

    Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?
    Wes, if life was so awful it was “endured” in the EU years, why weren’t there mass rallies calling for an exit every week? I can’t recall public unrest along the lines of the poll tax riots.

  46. #13896

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    Wes, if life was so awful it was “endured” in the EU years, why weren’t there mass rallies calling for an exit every week? I can’t recall public unrest along the lines of the poll tax riots.
    I get the impression that most of Wes' life has involved 'enduring' one oppressive burden or another.

  47. #13897

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    I get the impression that most of Wes' life has involved 'enduring' one oppressive burden or another.
    The reason Wes wants to leave has been mooted many a time on this thread. It has nothing to do with what's best for his kids (clearly, as he wants to leave with no deal), but more to do with the various people he sees walking the streets of good old blighty.

  48. #13898

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    Wes must be delighted about foreign students being allowed to stay after graduation and the record numbers of migrants across the channel. Taking back control

  49. #13899

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    The reason Wes wants to leave has been mooted many a time on this thread. It has nothing to do with what's best for his kids (clearly, as he wants to leave with no deal), but more to do with the various people he sees walking the streets of good old blighty.
    I thought Wes told me on this thread his grandmother's family were Italian immigrants given that surely he has no problem with immigration to this country from Europe?

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  50. #13900

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    Brexit - enter at your own risk. How appropriate. Angry remoaners dominate the thread, shouting down any opinion on Brexit that runs counter to their side's agenda to thwart the democratic majority in the referendum. Most of the other brexiteers on here are just fed-up with the constant childish abuse, so they just can't be arsed any longer to post their opinions.

    Just look at yourselves. Just for using the adjective "endure" to describe my opinion of how I felt about the EU since Maastricht, I get all this abuse. It seems that Soggy and Sheaf Saint ought to consult a dictionary before assuming that I meant it to mean that it caused me great hardship, or to wonder why the citizens of the UK who felt the same didn't riot in the streets. Ridiculous and worthy of contempt. Shurlock his usual obnoxious, juvenile self, sinking to Jeff's depths, making it personal with assumptions about my family. I won't plumb those depths by retaliating in that vein. Jeff is on ignore, so he is p*ssing in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

    Anyway, all those leavers who have left this thread and the other ones concerning Brexit, I am joining them. Talk among yourselves. I can just have the occasional look in and have a good laugh at all of you in your little echo chamber.

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