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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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The government tables a short bill which sets aside the provisions of the FTPA to allow an election on a specific date. This bill would only require a simple majority to pass. :lol:

 

Should have read the whole story....,”but the bill would be amendable and the government are terrified of going down this route because of the potential for hijack”

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Should have read the whole story....,”but the bill would be amendable and the government are terrified of going down this route because of the potential for hijack”

 

And the suggestion is that they’re going down the FTPA route again and resubmitting the same motion. Can John actually read?

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The government tables a short bill which sets aside the provisions of the FTPA to allow an election on a specific date. This bill would only require a simple majority to pass. :lol:

And with the prorogation there would probably not be enough time to pass it . :lol: That's assuming enough of the 'simple' are around to provide majority, given we have a minority government.

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And with the prorogation there would probably not be enough time to pass it . :lol: That's assuming enough of the 'simple' are around to provide majority, given we have a minority government.

 

Exactly. John is hopelessly confused and outchumped himself again. He seems to think that Mogg has somehow checkmated the opposition. The government doesn't now have the numbers for a GE whether its a 2/3s or simple majority. Its in Corbyn and the opposition's gift to give. If we have a GE, its because the opposition has chosen it, not because it's been forced into it.

 

Pompey Poly's second most famous graduate and strategic genius :lol:

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Exactly. John is hopelessly confused and outchumped himself again. He seems to think that Mogg has somehow checkmated the opposition. The government doesn't now have the numbers for a GE whether its a 2/3s or simple majority. Its in Corbyn and the opposition's gift to give. If we have a GE, its because the opposition has chosen it, not because it's been forced into it.

 

Pompey Poly's second most famous graduate and strategic genius :lol:

 

Who is the most famous Pompey Poly graduate?

 

Is he/she as thick as Guided Missile??

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Exactly. John is hopelessly confused and outchumped himself again. He seems to think that Mogg has somehow checkmated the opposition. The government doesn't now have the numbers for a GE whether its a 2/3s or simple majority. Its in Corbyn and the opposition's gift to give. If we have a GE, its because the opposition has chosen it, not because it's been forced into it.

 

Pompey Poly's second most famous graduate and strategic genius [emoji38]

You're right, although the SNP gave said they might back a simple vote, and the exiles will still vote with the Tories. There could be time, as prorogation is set for 12th at latest.

 

But the danger of a vote to override FTPA to the Tories is that it could be amended, eg to allow 16 yr olds to vote or, more likely, fix the election date as, say, Oct 30th. Johnson would then have to go to Brussels either to get a deal (he won't be able to) or ask fir an extension (he's refusing). On election day he would stand as a failure who hadn't delivered his promise. Cue Brexit revival.

 

Johnson desperately needs as election before the summit. If he got a majority, he'd repeal the Benn Act before going and we're back with No Deal.

 

Given Johnson's record on lying, and he's desperate now so will certainly lie through his teeth, the opposition can't let him have an early election or one that suspends parliament over 31st October.

 

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You're right, although the SNP gave said they might back a simple vote, and the exiles will still vote with the Tories. There could be time, as prorogation is set for 12th at latest.

 

But the danger of a vote to override FTPA to the Tories is that it could be amended, eg to allow 16 yr olds to vote or, more likely, fix the election date as, say, Oct 30th. Johnson would then have to go to Brussels either to get a deal (he won't be able to) or ask fir an extension (he's refusing). On election day he would stand as a failure who hadn't delivered his promise. Cue Brexit revival.

 

Johnson desperately needs as election before the summit. If he got a majority, he'd repeal the Benn Act before going and we're back with No Deal.

 

Given Johnson's record on lying, and he's desperate now so will certainly lie through his teeth, the opposition can't let him have an early election or one that suspends parliament over 31st October.

 

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Its not clear at all that the exiles-independents will vote with the Tories as their principal concern is avoiding no deal - that much was abundantly clear in the debates for an early GE and is reflected in the abstentions and votes against the original motion. The SNP has incentives to jump the gun but it would be extremely naive and short-termist if they don't coordinate their behaviour. But ultimately its for the opposition to give the greenlight. Hence the desperation among the rightwing press and its concerted campaign to goad the opposition into action. They know it, we know it, only John seems a bit clueless.

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Its not clear at all that the exiles-independents will vote with the Tories as their principal concern is avoiding no deal - that much was abundantly clear in the debates for an early GE and is reflected in the abstentions and votes against the original motion. The SNP has incentives to jump the gun but it would be extremely naive and short-termist if they don't coordinate their behaviour. But ultimately its for the opposition to give the greenlight. Hence the desperation among the rightwing press and its concerted campaign to goad the opposition into action. They know it, we know it, only John seems a bit clueless.

 

Everyone except the Tories wants to see Boris fail, so they will wait until after October 31st to accept a GE. Boris should (although probably won't) resign as he will have failed in his one red line (do or die).

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Everyone except the Tories wants to see Boris fail, so they will wait until after October 31st to accept a GE. Boris should (although probably won't) resign as he will have failed in his one red line (do or die).

 

Yep probably won't resign but it will leave him more exposed to the Brexit Party who'll be screaming blue murder.

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Yep probably won't resign but it will leave him more exposed to the Brexit Party who'll be screaming blue murder.
He's said he'd rather be dead in a ditch than go to Brussels and ask fir an extension, which is what parliament is actually requiring him to do if he has no plausible deal (which he doesn't have as he's got no plan).

 

So he can defy parliament which would be an outrage, see him in court and finish any trust in him any his party or resign, which would be surrender. That's why he's having an absolute tantrum to get an election before the summit. If he loses, someone else's problem.(But Corbyn, or whoever, can deal with that by asking for the extension and blaming Johnson for failing to negotiate) If he wins, repeal the Benn Act, forget about a deal, leave with no deal on Oct 31st.

 

Which is why it would be utter folly for anyone in opposition to agree to an election before the extension is actually implemented. Let him stew in his own pompous, idiotic juice and fail miserably.

 

 

 

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The chair of Orpington conservative association was on Radio 4 earlier talking about Jo Johnson.

While JJ was a remainer, this guy was a dyed in the wool Brexiteer, however he heaped praise on JJ, saying he was a fantastic MP and despite their differing views he was very sorry to see him go. When asked directly if he preferred Boz or Jo, he sided with Jo unequivocally.

It was a really refreshing interview. So nice to hear comment that don’t just parrot factional cliches. What a shame to see such a well regarded MP leave a role he loved.

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An interesting thought - what would happen if BoJo lost his Uxbridge seat? There was a massive swing back to Labour in 2017, with only 5k votes between them, and they are now according to polls, a Remain constituency.

 

Could he put himself out of a job by calling an election?

 

Don't technically need to be an MP to be PM.

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An interesting thought - what would happen if BoJo lost his Uxbridge seat? There was a massive swing back to Labour in 2017, with only 5k votes between them, and they are now according to polls, a Remain constituency.

 

Could he put himself out of a job by calling an election?

I think he'd heave a sigh of relief.

 

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Are we sure that's true?

 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/principal/government-opposition/

 

I can't imagine he'd stay on beyond that.

 

I may be wrong but I don't think there's anything technically stopping a Lord being PM (which often happened in the past). Needless to say it would be shady and perhaps unfeasible politically.

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If Johnson lost his seat but was still PM a backbencher in a safe Tory seat would be encouraged to stand down and cause a by election. The backbencher would be rewarded with a knighthood and other perks and Johnson would be the Tory candidate.

 

It would take a few weeks to organise. The Tory electorate in the chosen constituency may not take too kindly to be treated this way but there would be enough voters there to ensure that the PM could stay in the House of Commons.

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[h=2]Here's one for GM;

 

"The pound soars to a one-week high after Remainer MPs forced Boris Johnson to seek a further Brexit delay if he cannot agree a deal with Europe"[/h]

 

18102968-7430969-image-a-7_1567681592978.jpg

"...UBS analysts said a delay to Brexit until January 2020 and an election after October could push the pound as far as $1.30, a four-month high."

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7430969/The-pound-soars-one-week-high-possible-Brexit-delay.html

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[h=2]Here's one for GM;

 

"The pound soars to a one-week high after Remainer MPs forced Boris Johnson to seek a further Brexit delay if he cannot agree a deal with Europe"[/h]

 

18102968-7430969-image-a-7_1567681592978.jpg

"...UBS analysts said a delay to Brexit until January 2020 and an election after October could push the pound as far as $1.30, a four-month high."

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7430969/The-pound-soars-one-week-high-possible-Brexit-delay.html

 

Nah, can't see Rees-Mogg slouching on that.

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Even Pravda is twigging that this is an absolute s**tshow

 

 

 

Boris Johnson just gave the most bizarre speech ever... and it was pure Alan Partridge

 

How to explain it? Stress? Exhaustion? After all, Boris Johnson has had a pretty tough week. He lost his majority. He lost his first three votes as Prime Minister. He failed to secure the general election he’d pretended not to want. More than 20 of his MPs rebelled against him, and were then kicked out of his party, prompting a backlash from those who remained. And then this morning, to cap it all, Jo Johnson – his own brother – resigned out of the blue as one of his ministers.

 

So yes. Reasonably gruelling. But even so – I’m not sure it can entirely account for what happened this evening. Because, at a police training centre in West Yorkshire, Mr Johnson gave unequivocally the most bizarre performance of his career.

 

Then again, performance isn’t really the word, because performances are deliberate, and this, all too plainly, was not. Having arrived well over an hour late, Mr Johnson stumbled up to his lectern and began what should have been a straightforward speech trumpeting his latest pledges on crime. Somehow, though, he didn’t seem to be entirely himself.

 

We’ve all seen Mr Johnson bumbling and burbling for comic effect. It’s what he does. He’s been doing it his entire political life. But this wasn’t like that. Here, he looked genuinely dazed. Absent. Distracted. Lost. He spoke slowly, vaguely, and with long, inexplicable pauses – as if, while he murmured away, his mind kept straying on to some other, rather more troubling topic.

 

And then, after only a couple of minutes, something even odder happened. A propos of absolutely nothing at all, he started rambling about police cautions.

 

“Do you know the caution?” he said dreamily, to his audience of newly recruited officers. “You know what you have to say when you, when you... when you collar someone? ‘You do not have to say anything.’ Is that right? No. ‘Anything you s...’ No. ‘But if you fail to mention something… which you later… rely on…’”

 

 

His audience was silent. No one seemed to know quite where to look. It all felt very awkward. You could practically hear the clenching of disconcerted buttocks.

 

“Hang on,” murmured the Prime Minister, almost to himself. “Let’s get this right. Do you remember it? You all know it? ‘Which you later rely on in court... may be… taken into account…’” He gave up. “Anyway, you get the gist…”

 

It wasn’t meant to be a joke. There was no punchline. Or indeed any point. He then meandered, quite unrelatedly, into the subject of public trust.

 

As I stared, all I could think of was that episode of I’m Alan Partridge: the one in which Alan tries to climb over a fence, and impales his foot on a spike. But then, despite having lost a pint of blood, he refuses to go to hospital, and instead staggers off to give a speech at a corporate awards do – where, before a bewildered audience, he starts rambling woozily about the Daily Express, and Curly Wurlys, and the Devil, and coffee (“Go and eat some coffee. Erm, drink it. It’s soup you can eat. Not so liquid”).

 

The Prime Minister wasn’t quite that incoherent. But he wasn’t far off. After what felt like a fortnight, but according to my phone was only eight minutes, the Prime Minister drifted to a halt, and invited questions. Inevitably, a lot of them were about his brother’s resignation, and what it said about his premiership (three times, no less, he was asked: if even your own brother doesn’t back you, why would the public?).

 

Mr Johnson just about managed to grope his way through those (“Well... you’ll have seen what Jo had to say about our agenda, and he was a strong… look…”). And, fortunately for him, he also managed to blurt something newsworthy (he’d “rather be dead in a ditch” than delay Brexit), which should at least help to switch attention from his brother.

 

But not even then did he snap out of it: this dreamlike air of almost mystical discombobulation. At one point he abruptly announced that he had no more time to take questions, before immediately inviting several more – as if he’d forgotten what he’d said literally a second earlier.

 

And then, right at the end, to make it all feel even more unreal: a woman behind him appeared to have a fainting fit. Mr Johnson lurched round, startled.

 

I was pretty startled myself. Frankly, if anyone was going to pass out, I would have expected it to be him.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/05/boris-johnson-just-gave-bizarre-speech-ever-pure-alan-partridge/

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Theresa May must be lapping this up. She was the most inept PM in my lifetime up until a few days ago but already Johnson has stolen her title. He could even end up being worse than Trump and that takes some doing. You have to feel for Duckie though. After a great deal of consideration he gave his vote to Boris. He must be wishing that he was dead in a ditch this morning.

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Assuming we get beyond Oct 31st it will be interesting to see how " do or die" is excused. However, let's not get complacent over Boris's capabilities or his political future. The Tories are still the largest party in Parliament, Labour only look organised when viewed in the light of the Conservatives, and FPTP allied to constituency boundaries tends to favour the Tories in England. The next election will be a single issue poll, ( an issue on which Labour is completely muddled ), and this is a very poor basis for electing what in theory is the Government for the next 5 years, and it is possible that the general discontent with the political class would lead to a low turnout, which I suspect would also favour the Tories.

He won't be bog snorkelling just yet.

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Assuming we get beyond Oct 31st it will be interesting to see how " do or die" is excused. However, let's not get complacent over Boris's capabilities or his political future. The Tories are still the largest party in Parliament, Labour only look organised when viewed in the light of the Conservatives, and FPTP allied to constituency boundaries tends to favour the Tories in England. The next election will be a single issue poll, ( an issue on which Labour is completely muddled ), and this is a very poor basis for electing what in theory is the Government for the next 5 years, and it is possible that the general discontent with the political class would lead to a low turnout, which I suspect would also favour the Tories.

He won't be bog snorkelling just yet.

 

The Conservatives are muddled on it too though, and its that that will cause them the most issues.

 

Do they campaign on a deal with the EU, or no deal?

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I think we'll see some dramatic and outrageous move on Monday. Johnson and Cummings are cornered wild animals and now utterly unpredictable.

 

For example, extending the probation beyond 31st October, saying there's no-one to go to Brussels so we can't ask for an extension. Then no-deal happens by default. I should shut up. I'm giving them ideas.

 

The other possibilities are a VONC in himself, but that could result in a caretaker PM stopping no deal and even securing a second referendum. And to admit you have no confidence in yourself.... Or a simple bill to override the FTPA, allowing a simple majority. But that could be amended in many dangerous ways.

 

Mess. And no more than he deserves.

 

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I think we are seeing one of the shortest premierships of all time being presided over here.

 

I certainly hope so but the longer this goes on the more that voters can see that the man is a babbling liar.

 

He does however have the knack of winning elections.... underestimate him at your peril.

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I think we are seeing one of the shortest premierships of all time being presided over here.

 

I certainly hope so but the longer this goes on the more that voters can see that the man is a babbling liar.

 

He does however have the knack of winning elections.... underestimate him at your peril.

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I won't say I told you so, but...

 

Doom-laden warnings of economic catastrophe before the Brexit referendum were driven in part by commercial worries by economists at the banks that stood to lose the most from a ‘leave’ vote, economists have found. Analysts at institutions that faced the biggest potential losses from the referendum typically issued worse economic forecasts than those with less financial incentive to campaign to remain, according to a recent paper by Davide Cipullo and André Reslow of Uppsala University in Sweden.

Voters often have little economic expertise and so may look out for expert forecasts of the impact of different vote, even while those expert economists have big incentives to seek to influence the referendum through their projections, leading to a “propaganda bias” in their warnings over the impact on the economy. Economists with more to lose and with more influence predicted GDP would grow by just 0.5pc in 2017 following a vote to leave the EU. By contrast other forecasters estimated growth would come in at 1.3pc. In fact the economy grew by 1.7pc, meaning both groups under-estimated its strength, but those who sought to bias the referendum result were wrong by a much greater margin.

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I think we'll see some dramatic and outrageous move on Monday. Johnson and Cummings are cornered wild animals and now utterly unpredictable.

 

For example, extending the probation beyond 31st October, saying there's no-one to go to Brussels so we can't ask for an extension. Then no-deal happens by default. I should shut up. I'm giving them ideas.

 

The other possibilities are a VONC in himself, but that could result in a caretaker PM stopping no deal and even securing a second referendum. And to admit you have no confidence in yourself.... Or a simple bill to override the FTPA, allowing a simple majority. But that could be amended in many dangerous ways.

 

Mess. And no more than he deserves.

 

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He doesn't have the votes to secure a VONC in himself.

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I won't say I told you so, but...

 

Sorry, what? Are you still harping on about something that happened 3 years ago? We know the economy wasn't effected as badly as they thought straight after the vote? I don't think anyone has argued that - this seems like a "man shouts at cloud" moment.

 

However, very simply, here is our economic growth up to the end of 2018, compared to our 'rivals':

 

2.2chartc.png

 

...and investment-wise:

 

2.2chartd.png

 

It's a far cry from "We'll be better off out of the EU", and a far cry from what we should have been.

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Sorry, what? Are you still harping on about something that happened 3 years ago? We know the economy wasn't effected as badly as they thought straight after the vote? I don't think anyone has argued that - this seems like a "man shouts at cloud" moment.

 

However, very simply, here is our economic growth up to the end of 2018, compared to our 'rivals':

 

2.2chartc.png

 

...and investment-wise:

 

2.2chartd.png

 

It's a far cry from "We'll be better off out of the EU", and a far cry from what we should have been.

 

Its a never-ending nightmare for John. He's struggling so much that he even has to title his posts. The man reeks of insecurity and cheap fertiliser.

 

The UK economy is much smaller than it where it would have been sans-Brexit. And it hasn't happened yet. As you point out the UK fared poorly against peers in 2017. It's also overlooked that the EU was the engine of global trade in 2017, contributing more to demand than China and the United States combined, benefiting the UK. Alas John will spit out charts without any understanding what they mean.

 

As for the accuracy forecasts it is worth revisiting David Smith's summary of 2018:

 

 

The referendum, in contrast, was expected to have a bigger short-term negative effect on growth than turned out to be the case, although the broad impact on the economy of Britain’s vote to leave over the past 2½ years has turned out close to expectations.

 

2018 was one of the good years for forecasters. Though the world economy turned out to be a touch disappointing, predictions of UK growth were downbeat, and were right to be so. At an estimated 1.4%, the current consensus, growth was very close to what was expected by the majority of forecasters at the beginning of the year.

 

Growth was expected to be disappointing, and it has been, ranking as the weakest year since the crisis. Though we have to wait a little while for the final figures – and even then they are subject to revision – the economy struggled....

 

...Economists mainly got growth right and they were also correct in anticipating a fall in inflation, as the effects of sterling’s sharp post-referendum fall pass through. Inflation was 3% at the end of last year and was down to 2.3% last month.

 

That has meant, with a strengthening of wage growth to its best in 10 years, a crossover between earnings and inflation, so resuming real wage growth, currently around 1%. This was not enough, however, to rescue a grim year for retailers who, despite a Black Friday boost in November, have found 2018 to be the toughest year in a long time,

 

The labour market performed well in another respect, with continued if slightly slower growth in employment, and a further drop in unemployment. The 4% unemployment rate seen during the year was the lowest for decades.

 

What else happened? The Bank of England raised interest rates, taking Bank rate to 0.75%, and thus br4eaking above 0.5% for the first time since March 2009. Philip Hammond took advantage of some favourable forecast revisions from the Office for Budget Responsibility to fund the National Health Service’s 70th birthday present and a cut in income tax via raising the personal allowance. But a change in the treatment of student loans by official statisticians will add significantly to the measured budget deficit.

 

So who got closest to the story of 2018 with their forecasts? I am pleased to announce that we got two perfect tens this year on my scoring system, two forecasters who got growth, inflation, unemployment, the balance of payments and interest rates as close to completely correct as it is possible to be.

 

One was Pantheon Macroeconomics, in the form of its chief UK economist Samuel Tombs. His tone about Britain’s economy has been downbeat since the referendum and in 2018 he called it correctly. Congratulations to him.

 

It is also pleasing to record that the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), the government’s fiscal and forecasting watchdog, which has a huge influence in framing others’ forecasts for the economy, also did very well, again scoring 10 out of 10. For the OBR this will be somewhat bitter-sweet. It would be the first to admit that its forecasts for public borrowing, one of its main functions, have been too pessimistic over the past couple of years. A recognition of that enabled Hammond to splash the cash in November. Government borrowing has never been one of the measures I have used to judge the forecasts, however, because the time to do that is after the end of the fiscal year in April, not at the end of the calendar year.

 

It is only fair to report that many other forecasters did well this year, the number of eight and nine scores being higher than on average. Economic forecasting comes in for a lot of flak, but it did well in 2018.

 

At the other end of the scale to Tombs and the OBR sits the Liverpool Marco Research Group of Patrick Minford, now a professor at Cardiff University but previously at Liverpool. He is perhaps the most prominent Brexit-supporting economist. Optimism on the impact of the referendum vote did not serve him well this year or, it should be said, in 2017.

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Party of Business

 

UBS Wealth Management: 'Main threat' to sterling is Tory election win

 

Sterling has recovered a bit in recent days after hitting its lowest level against the US dollar since a flash crash three years ago. But UBS Wealth Management is out with a note today reminding investors that the direction of travel could easily change.

 

Mark Haefele, the group's chief investment officer, notes that the "main threat to sterling’s recovery is if [boris] Johnson’s Conservative party were to win with a majority in an early election."

 

"They could then overturn the legislation requiring them to ask for an extension, increasing the threat of leaving without a deal," he said.

 

He notes that a no-deal Brexit could send the British currency sinking back from around $1.23 today to $1.15 "or even lower."

 

From the FT.

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  • Lighthouse changed the title to Brexit - Post Match Reaction

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