View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
161. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    36 22.36%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 4.97%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.24%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    89 55.28%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    6 3.73%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 1.86%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.48%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    3 1.86%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    10 6.21%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #14351

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    What Parliament wants is irrelevant if the maths and make-up are changed. It will depend whether the electorate as a whole wants no deal (a deal) and how those preferences interacts with the eccentricities of FPTP.
    I'm making the assumption that the numbers will still be positive for a Deal (as I think it is now), or for a Customs Union type of deal.

    You may know this - can Parliament bring back the WA for another vote pre-Oct 31st?
    Last edited by Unbelievable Jeff; 08-10-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  2. #14352

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I'm making the assumption that the numbers will still be positive for a Deal (as I think it is now), or for a Customs Union type of deal.

    You may know this - can Parliament bring back the WA for another vote pre-Oct 31st?
    Time would be tight but in principle it could.

  3. #14353

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Was discussing a possible GE with my wife today, and the problem we have is that whilst there is no way we could ever vote Tory at the moment, the chances of an LD win in our constituency are extremely slim, as it is a Tory/Labour marginal, and we don't want to give an endorsement to Corbyn.
    From the Financial Times, not exactly Corbyn's biggest fans.
    https://www.ft.com/content/7cdfa832-...0-3b065ef5fc55

    You have a choice between a bad option and a catastrophic one, it's not that hard surely?

  4. #14354

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Time would be tight but in principle it could.
    I think if Boris was to not ask for, or implement, the extension request, that will be the way to go.

  5. #14355

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    Dominic Cummings' latest strategy appears to be to prepare people for the No Leave Brexit by getting government ministers to increase the number of times they repeat 17.4 million people voted for it. Michael Gove has just said it 6 times. Why doesn't somebody on the opposition bench, just once at least, point out that means 50.2 million people in this country did not vote for it? Also, sadly, as a disproportionate number of those leave voters were very old people, about a million of them have died since 2016 and been replaced by new young voters who are very much in favour of remaining in the EU.

  6. #14356

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    Dominic Cummings' latest strategy appears to be to prepare people for the No Leave Brexit by getting government ministers to increase the number of times they repeat 17.4 million people voted for it. Michael Gove has just said it 6 times. Why doesn't somebody on the opposition bench, just once at least, point out that means 50.2 million people in this country did not vote for it? Also, sadly, as a disproportionate number of those leave voters were very old people, about a million of them have died since 2016 and been replaced by new young voters who are very much in favour of remaining in the EU.
    Not voting isn't an endorsement either way. If you don't vote then you don't have a voice.

  7. #14357

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I think if Boris was to not ask for, or implement, the extension request, that will be the way to go.
    Not sure what the point in dragging that deal up would be, apart from the comedy value of having Boris and his ERG chums block Brexit, again.

    Parliament pretty much agreed it was "the worst deal in history", no MP is going to openly say that then force it on their people. The only way that would get through if it was with a confirmatory vote clause.

  8. #14358

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Not sure what the point in dragging that deal up would be, apart from the comedy value of having Boris and his ERG chums block Brexit, again.

    Parliament pretty much agreed it was "the worst deal in history", no MP is going to openly say that then force it on their people. The only way that would get through if it was with a confirmatory vote clause.
    But they won't block it - they don't have the numbers anymore. Last time it lost was by 58 votes, but there have been massive changes since then to the make-up of Parliament, and a number of MPs who will now vote for it ahead of no-deal.
    Last edited by Unbelievable Jeff; 08-10-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  9. #14359

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Not voting isn't an endorsement either way. If you don't vote then you don't have a voice.
    You mean like the 5.5 million British people currently living abroad who weren't allowed to vote in a referendum which will affect their lives much more than it will ours?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-referendum

  10. #14360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    Dominic Cummings' latest strategy appears to be to prepare people for the No Leave Brexit by getting government ministers to increase the number of times they repeat 17.4 million people voted for it. Michael Gove has just said it 6 times. Why doesn't somebody on the opposition bench, just once at least, point out that means 50.2 million people in this country did not vote for it? Also, sadly, as a disproportionate number of those leave voters were very old people, about a million of them have died since 2016 and been replaced by new young voters who are very much in favour of remaining in the EU.
    This is the major problem with democracy. It isn’t the will of the people. It is the will of the people who can be arsed to vote or those allowed to vote. Then there are those who use it as a protest vote because they think that the vote will be a certain way anyway. Apart from having a referendum in the first place, Cameron made 2 major errors. 1 - saying that he would abide by the decision of the vote even though it was “advisers.” 2. He should have stipulated that he would agree to a leave vote if it was substantial, say 60/40. Technically we would be having the same amount of bickering if leave had won by 1 vote. A great deal happened over the last 3 years and we know a lot more about what leaving really means. If that was what majority truly want now, let’s find up with a 2nd referendum.

  11. #14361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    But they won't block it - they don't have the numbers anymore. Last time it lost was by 58 votes, but there have been massive changes since then to the make-up of Parliament, and a number of MPs who will now vote for it ahead of no-deal.
    But the people in Parliament have not changed and neither have the details of the deal. If it was a bad deal for the country then it still is now.

    An MPs job is to do what they think is best for their constituents and the country, no way will they vote through a deal which they have already said on record is going to be bad for the country.

  12. #14362

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Was discussing a possible GE with my wife today, and the problem we have is that whilst there is no way we could ever vote Tory at the moment, the chances of an LD win in our constituency are extremely slim, as it is a Tory/Labour marginal, and we don't want to give an endorsement to Corbyn.
    No fan of Corbyn labour at all but turns out the odiousness of Boris and company is one of few circumstances I'll hold my nose and vote for them.

  13. #14363

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    You mean like the 5.5 million British people currently living abroad who weren't allowed to vote in a referendum which will affect their lives much more than it will ours?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-referendum
    Or the populations of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or Anguilla, almost all of whom could not vote as these territories are technically not in the EU, despite most EU treaties applying to them as the UK is responsible for them.

  14. #14364

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    But the people in Parliament have not changed and neither have the details of the deal. If it was a bad deal for the country then it still is now.

    An MPs job is to do what they think is best for their constituents and the country, no way will they vote through a deal which they have already said on record is going to be bad for the country.
    Unfortunately. I think you're wrong on this, there are indications that large swathes of the Labour party, if not all of them, will now support the WA, and a number of Conservatives are at breaking point with Boris and supported the deal the first time round...if they voted against it that's the end for the Tory party as they would be seem to be blocking anything but a No Deal exit. It is also a revised WA, it hasn't been voted on yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-brexit-deal

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...deal-1-6308444

  15. #14365

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Not voting isn't an endorsement either way. If you don't vote then you don't have a voice.
    That's not the way the government treats not voting when it comes to strike ballots.

  16. #14366

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    Quote Originally Posted by revolution saint View Post
    That's not the way the government treats not voting when it comes to strike ballots.
    This was a referendum and that's how it's treated.

  17. #14367

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Unfortunately. I think you're wrong on this, there are indications that large swathes of the Labour party, if not all of them, will now support the WA, and a number of Conservatives are at breaking point with Boris and supported the deal the first time round...if they voted against it that's the end for the Tory party as they would be seem to be blocking anything but a No Deal exit. It is also a revised WA, it hasn't been voted on yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-brexit-deal

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...deal-1-6308444
    Very unlikely May’s WA with a few cosmetic changes (at least the minor changes that May was willing to entertain) would pass now.
    Last edited by shurlock; 08-10-2019 at 05:22 PM.

  18. #14368

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Very unlikely May’s WA with a few cosmetic changes (at least the minor changes that May was willing to entertain) would pass now.
    I just don't know TBH - be interesting to see.

  19. #14369

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Unfortunately. I think you're wrong on this, there are indications that large swathes of the Labour party, if not all of them, will now support the WA, and a number of Conservatives are at breaking point with Boris and supported the deal the first time round...if they voted against it that's the end for the Tory party as they would be seem to be blocking anything but a No Deal exit. It is also a revised WA, it hasn't been voted on yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-brexit-deal

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...deal-1-6308444
    If it’s revised then it’s not the same so it might stand a chance. No way they could push the same deal through.

    I think the only way anything will get through now is with a condition of a confirmatory vote, too many remainers in the house can smell blood.

  20. #14370

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    You mean like the 5.5 million British people currently living abroad who weren't allowed to vote in a referendum which will affect their lives much more than it will ours?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-referendum

    Incorrect, if you have been living abroad less than 15 years, you are able to vote in refendum and all elections, you just need to register with the last council you lived in. You can vote by proxy or post. I have recently been contacted by my local council to ensure I am up to date in case of a snap election. I have friends who live the other side of the world who voted as they have been away less than 15 years. The article does mention this.

    It’s up to the individual to find out about their rights, I am afraid a lot don’t bother they certainly as Hypcondriac says have a lot to say but didn’t vote therefore should shut up and put up. Many still can’t be bothered so even if a second referendum happened they STILL couldn’t vote. No sympathy at all.

  21. #14371

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    Who said the swivels didn’t have facts and evidence on their side

  22. #14372

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post


    Who said the swivels didnít have facts and evidence on their side
    Sort of advert which would appeal to bottom stream dwellers at my old secondary school. Seem to remember them singing those words when a German secondary school party visited around the school and them thinking it was funny. Probably will also appeal to the same England Members Club idiots that sang the German Bombers/RAF song at the 2006 WC.

    Frankly, itís not Merkelís fault that 110000 English nats voted the village buffoon to lead the country.

  23. #14373

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Sort of advert which would appeal to bottom stream dwellers at my old secondary school. Seem to remember them singing those words when a German secondary school party visited around the school and them thinking it was funny. Probably will also appeal to the same England Members Club idiots that sang the German Bombers/RAF song at the 2006 WC.

    Frankly, it’s not Merkel’s fault that 110000 English nats voted the village buffoon to lead the country.
    To be fair we shouldn't blame little Englanders for Brexit propaganda like this as most of it emanates from Russia. Even Dominic Cummings with his 'Take Back Control' propaganda came here after his formative years living in Moscow in the 1990s.

  24. #14374

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post


    Who said the swivels didnít have facts and evidence on their side
    I'm thinking I'd prefer Merkel as my PM more than Boris...

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  25. #14375

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    I'm thinking I'd prefer Merkel as my PM more than Boris...

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    There's still time to make this your reality

  26. #14376

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    There's still time to make this your reality
    Well if their is some way she can stand in the next GE for the Lib Dems I'm all for it

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  27. #14377

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    Apparently they have removed it an apologised. Its absolutely incredible that it got released in the first place.
    The times we live in, any idiot with a crayon set can post their scrawls for the entertainment of other idiots.

  28. #14378

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Well if their is some way she can stand in the next GE for the Lib Dems I'm all for it

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    Or you could go and live in Germany

  29. #14379

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    Of 226 polls since July 2017 204 have shown 'remain' ahead and just 7 have shown 'leave' in front. (15 ties).
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4257476.html

  30. #14380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    Why doesn't somebody on the opposition bench, just once at least, point out that means 50.2 million people in this country did not vote for it? Also, sadly, as a disproportionate number of those leave voters were very old people, about a million of them have died since 2016 and been replaced by new young voters who are very much in favour of remaining in the EU.
    just because they didnt vote doesn't mean they wanted in or out. Why not wait to do the referendum in 10years time as another 2or 3 million will be gone? The problem is how can you appease the 17.4m people who voted leave and then betray their wishes.
    It is a problem we can fix IMO

  31. #14381

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    Bercowitz getting under the skin of the swivels - I hope Les is OK.

  32. #14382

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Bercowitz getting under the skin of the swivels - I hope Les is OK.
    Do you mean Bercow, the collaborator?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOpGPhdCER4

  33. #14383

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Do you mean Bercow, the collaborator?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOpGPhdCER4
    Good to see you’re still being whipped up into unthinking hysteria Les. So what? These types of meetings are perfectly normal and commonplace. The swivel-eyed commentary of secret plotting and negotiations has been comedy gold.
    Last edited by shurlock; 10-10-2019 at 07:37 AM.

  34. #14384

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Do you mean Bercow, the collaborator?
    You do love your hyperbole.

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  36. #14386

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Good to see youíre still being whipped up into unthinking hysteria Les. So what? These types of meetings are perfectly normal and commonplace. The swivel-eyed commentary of secret plotting and negotiations has been comedy gold.
    You patronising stuck up snob.

  37. #14387

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    Because the Speaker won't allow this shambles of a minority Government to circumvent Parliament and avoid scrutiny, he gets demonised in the pro-Brexit press.

  38. #14388

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Good to see you’re still being whipped up into unthinking hysteria Les. So what? These types of meetings are perfectly normal and commonplace. The swivel-eyed commentary of secret plotting and negotiations has been comedy gold.
    I thought Les had left us? He threw a hissy fit and then went off in a mood?

  39. #14389

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I thought Les had left us? He threw a hissy fit and then went off in a mood?
    I like to think we’re performing a public service, providing a safety-valve of sorts. You dread to think what Les would be up to if he didn’t have an opportunity to vent on here.

  40. #14390

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    It's now abundantly clear that no exit deal can be obtained which will be approved by the British parliament.

    The solution is now quite obvious:

    A final referendum with two choices:

    - no deal leave
    - remain

    which are the only two realistic options.

    And if no deal wins then:

    a) we've got a nation full of retards
    b) that's the problem with letting any Wayne, Ron and Doris have the vote.

  41. #14391

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    It's now abundantly clear that no exit deal can be obtained which will be approved by the British parliament.

    The solution is now quite obvious:

    A final referendum with two choices:

    - no deal leave
    - remain

    which are the only two realistic options.

    And if no deal wins then:

    a) we've got a nation full of retards
    b) that's the problem with letting any Wayne, Ron and Doris have the vote.
    NI-only backstop (CU and SM regulatory alignment) subject to ongoing consent from the two communities in NI would be my solution. Basically the EU's original proposal but with a new condition of consent.

  42. #14392

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    Sounds like something's brewing - a possible way out? Or another false dawn?
    Last edited by shurlock; 10-10-2019 at 04:54 PM.

  43. #14393

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    NI-only backstop (CU and SM regulatory alignment) subject to ongoing consent from the two communities in NI would be my solution. Basically the EU's original proposal but with a new condition of consent.
    Would the decision to continue with the backstop be unilateral? I think we'll end up seeing reunionisation of NI if we go this way, but the union will break anyway if we leave.

  44. #14394

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Sounds like something's brewing - a possible way out? Or another false dawn?
    It seems to me now that BoJo's only chance to make that 31st date is to come up with a proper deal (although to get a treaty written, signed and approved by all parties seem a little unlikely).

    I wonder if he'll also ask for an extension with the reason being a deal is very close, and whether that will please his followers.

    If he manages to sort a deal, then I don't think many of us will be churlish enough to say that his Premiership has started anything but very successfully.

  45. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Sounds like something's brewing - a possible way out? Or another false dawn?
    A bit of lipstick on May's pig, and the ERG will gobble it up a) because its Boris and b) they know the whole could slip away. And also they never gave two shi ny sh its about Ireland in the first place.

    The Brexiteers are so desperate for their "I'm having my cold glass of champagne" moment and to stop any Remainer gloating that they will back anything that feels like a win. And celebrate it like a win.

    If Boris comes back with NI in the Customs Union (the EU suggestion in the first place) he will then have to dare Peter Bone and Marc Francois and that Welsh one to vote it through. Those swivels can't keep blaming Parliament, claiming the 17m for themselves and then still refuse to vote for a deal.

    Maybe, just maybe, it ws the ERG that Boris and Cummings were playing all along? After all, Cummings can't stand the lot of them. Boris has marched them all to the top of the hill. What now, lads?

  46. #14396

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    A bit of lipstick on May's pig, and the ERG will gobble it up a) because its Boris and b) they know the whole could slip away. And also they never gave two shi ny sh its about Ireland in the first place.

    The Brexiteers are so desperate for their "I'm having my cold glass of champagne" moment and to stop any Remainer gloating that they will back anything that feels like a win. And celebrate it like a win.

    If Boris comes back with NI in the Customs Union (the EU suggestion in the first place) he will then have to dare Peter Bone and Marc Francois and that Welsh one to vote it through. Those swivels can't keep blaming Parliament, claiming the 17m for themselves and then still refuse to vote for a deal.

    Maybe, just maybe, it ws the ERG that Boris and Cummings were playing all along? After all, Cummings can't stand the lot of them. Boris has marched them all to the top of the hill. What now, lads?
    It's an interesting paradigm - even on this own thread with GM, LD and Les wanting to leave with No Deal. They will no doubt see this as a win for Boris and the far right, whereas the win is for the moderates who just wanted a sensible deal.

  47. #14397

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    If form is anything to go by, Boris will have a proposal that has already been dismissed by the EU and requires little compromise by us.
    So I don't believe the hype, I don't reckon he's made progress, I suspect he's just put another spin distraction in place to blame others when he puts hedge funds before voters.

  48. #14398

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    The Brexiteers are so desperate for their "I'm having my cold glass of champagne" moment
    No more of that European rubbish being forced on us after Brexit. Good honest British sparkling wine will be all we need.

  49. #14399

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    If form is anything to go by, Boris will have a proposal that has already been dismissed by the EU and requires little compromise by us.
    So I don't believe the hype, I don't reckon he's made progress, I suspect he's just put another spin distraction in place to blame others when he puts hedge funds before voters.
    Hedge funds before voters lol. There are bets on both sides, and there were bets on the result originally as well. Rallyboy dont believe all the hype from either side. It is social media being worked to its fullest to move opinion one way or other depending whose side you are on.
    I have MSN as a news feed on my computer and they have a great sway as it is in front of the user all the time and the editors can pick what they like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    No more of that European rubbish being forced on us after Brexit. Good honest British sparkling wine will be all we need.
    And reduce our global carbon footprint. Brexit to save the world!!!!

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