View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
146. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    31 21.23%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 5.48%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.37%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    82 56.16%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.42%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 2.05%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.74%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.37%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    9 6.16%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #14551

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    If 'all possible deals' are unacceptable, including 'no deal', then perhaps that indicates that the whole thing was a stupid idea to start with.
    While I agree Brexit is a mistake in the first place, when the choice is essentiallly deal or no deal, surely deal is the better option. There must come a point where people who aren't openly trying to block Brexit have to accept either the deal available or accept no deal, Otherwise they should openly say that they intend to actively block any kind of Brexit, which I think is an acceptable position as it represents approximately half the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Well England, Scotland and Wales will be facing exactly the same no deal cliff edge in December 2020 once the transition period runs out. Itís pretty unlikely that a comprehensive FTA with the EU will have been negotiated and agreed by then. Itíll be deja vu all over again.
    Indeed.

    Let's see how that plays out, especially with those who think that Brexit will be over and done with on November 1st.
    Last edited by CB Fry; 17-10-2019 at 09:07 PM.

  3. #14553

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    Now the negotiation for the deal is over for this phase there is no good reason not to extend to January. Then, we can read the small print, analyse the deal, and put it through parliament in good time. This is what the EU is doing, eu Parliament is perusing the deal and will ratify on 13th Nov. We should do the same.

    Then, if the deal is not passed, rather than crashing out, alternatives can be enacted, e.g. A general election or 2nd referendum, revoke, or any combination thereof.

    The artifical deadline was just to get us to this point, there's no need for it anymore. A mature, measured approach is needed, rather than this ****wittery caused by a fake deadline and Johnson's infantile nonsense.

  4. #14554

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    I find it ironic, ridiculous and frustrating that this massive decision for the UK will now, twice, be made by a tiny minority.

    Firstly, the Tory Party elected Johnson, totally unrepresentative of anything except ageing right-wing Mail readers. He's a lying, manipulative bully but he's their lying, manipulative bully and if they don't back him the Tory Party is dead, do he gets to invoke extreme tactics with their blessing.

    Now, having struck a deal, any deal (the consequences of implementing it don't matter, he's "got Brexit done" and killed the Brexit Party), the fate of the deal is in the hands of a dozen or so weak Labour MPs who think they can save their seats in Leave constituencies by supporting the deal.

    Which is pure lunacy, since if Johnson gets the deal through, it will be a Tory victory and Labour will be decimated. Corbyn's position of wanting to deliver Brexit himself was ridiculous. Never happening. He's still in a fantasy world where he thinks he can win an election. His only chance was to make sure Johnson failed, stir up the splits in the Tories' and allow Brexit Party to take away their votes. Only then would he have stood a chance in a GE.

    Can only hope all Labour MPs have the intelligence to see the future of their party rests on them voting this deal down, rather than going for self-interest.

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  5. #14555

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Can only hope all Labour MPs have the intelligence to see the future of their party rests on them voting this deal down, rather than going for self-interest.
    Labour MP Ronnie Campbell says he will probably vote for the deal - but then again, he is standing down at the next election.

  6. Default

    Iíve been worn down and hope the deal goes through now without knowing too much about it and starting to not give a fck about NI.

  7. #14557

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    Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

    Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.

  8. #14558

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

    Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.
    Frankly, I'd just vote for it and get it done and dusted. Let's get on with actually negotiating the full deal - don't forget this is only an interim deal.

    The whole thing is just very sad though.

  9. #14559

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

    Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.
    Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.

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    The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.

  11. #14561

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    I think the best outcome is for the deal to get approved subject to an approval referendum. That takes no deal off the table, takes parliament and party politics out of the equation, and means this option has been chosen because it is the best way forward not just because there is a threat of a no deal.

  12. #14562

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.
    Don't forget that Johnson had previously said that no British government ever could or should enact anything that put an effective border in the Irish Sea, and he hated May's deal so much he resigned from the cabinet over it.

    So forgive me if I'm a little skeptical that this 'fantastic' new deal is actually great for the country. Johnson doesn't give a shiny sh!t. He's only interested in being seen to be the man that delivered Brexit. The details and the consequences are of no importance to him.

  13. #14563

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.
    I don't think many people think it is good. Like you, I would have preferred a remain outcome (although I get no say as I am not a resident), but that's not an option available now. I think no-deal will be worse though and that is the corner that people voting against the deal may be painting themselves into. The deadline is October 31st, the only thing postponing that was not having a deal on the table. That obstacle has now been removed, so that deadline is a reality again. So, deal or no deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LGTL View Post
    The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.
    Remember David Cameron's scaremongering in the 2015 election campaign when he warned people not to vote for Labour as they would end up being ruled by the SNP?

  15. #14565

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    Remember David Cameron's scaremongering in the 2015 election campaign when he warned people not to vote for Labour as they would end up being ruled by the SNP?
    Minor parties playing a key role in coalitions often get a disproportionate amount of power. Here in Norway, the Christian party managed to have the prime minister for years, despite being the junior coalition member. It makes you wonder how the libdems managed to make themselves such an irrelevance when they shared power.

  16. #14566

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    So, deal or no deal?
    Referendum ; this deal or remain.

  17. #14567

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Referendum ; this deal or remain.
    Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.

  18. #14568

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.
    Why are we out on the deadline? If it fails then Boris still has to ask for an extension.

  19. #14569

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    Quote Originally Posted by LGTL View Post
    The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.
    The DUP have to pander to their support in NI from their point of view anything that marks NI out as different from the rest of the Union or might encourage closer ties with the Republic is dangerous. I'm not sure a load of cash will cut it this time.

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  20. #14570

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Why are we out on the deadline? If it fails then Boris still has to ask for an extension.
    As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?

  21. #14571

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?
    They don’t have to and mostly don’t want to, but will in preference to no deal if the May deal minus is rejected

  22. #14572

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    I think the best outcome is for the deal to get approved subject to an approval referendum. That takes no deal off the table, takes parliament and party politics out of the equation, and means this option has been chosen because it is the best way forward not just because there is a threat of a no deal.
    I tend to agree but I don't think the numbers are there to add a confirmatory referendum.

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  23. #14573

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?
    The EU will give an extension if No Deal is on the table and a GE is imminent (which it is).

  24. #14574

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

    Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.
    To answer your first paragraph, all three.

    Your second paragraph is wrong. The Benn Act still requires an extension to be requested if an offered deal is rejected in parliament.

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  25. #14575

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.
    The "Benn Act" says that BoJo must ask for an extension if the deal isn't agreed by Parliament. Admittedly the EU don't have to acquiesce to the request, and Cummings probably has another cunning plan, but if an extension were requested and agreed then GE, not exactly a clear referendum given the poor quality of the options, but it gives 'the People' the choice, and at least this time it is a better informed one.

  26. #14576

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    The EU will give an extension if No Deal is on the table and a GE is imminent (which it is).
    I don't think they will extend unless it guarantees some sort of decision on Brexit. Chances are a GE will just result in a hung parliament which will solve nothing, if anything it could make the situation even more muddled if the main two parties do as bad as expected.

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    If Boris is convinced that it is such a wonderful deal let’s put it to the people. Let’s have a referendum either for the deal of to revoke Article 50. We can then have a GE to a elect a Government who will either spend the next life of Parliament sorting out the messy details of Brexit or getting the country back on its feet again after the last 3 wasted years.

  28. #14578

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    I don't think they will extend unless it guarantees some sort of decision on Brexit. Chances are a GE will just result in a hung parliament which will solve nothing, if anything it could make the situation even more muddled if the main two parties do as bad as expected.
    No-one knows what will happen in a GE, or the splits, so the EU won't take that risk for what is a 3 month extension.

    Obviously IMHO.

  29. #14579

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    If Boris is convinced that it is such a wonderful deal let’s put it to the people.
    The problem with that, as the last 3 and a half years have shown, is that it doesn't matter how good or bad the deal actually is, because there is a very large section of British society who will vote for it no matter what if that is the only option to actually leave.

    It could include a clause requiring all British people to hand over their first born sons to the EU for scientific experiments or something equally horrific as part of the severance deal, and a huge number of ignorant c*nts would still rather vote for it than remain.

  30. #14580

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    The problem with that, as the last 3 and a half years have shown, is that it doesn't matter how good or bad the deal actually is, because there is a very large section of British society who will vote for it no matter what if that is the only option to actually leave.

    It could include a clause requiring all British people to hand over their first born sons to the EU for scientific experiments or something equally horrific as part of the severance deal, and a huge number of ignorant c*nts would still rather vote for it than remain.
    It’s a sad state of affairs. It wasn’t that long ago that we were laughing at the state of America having elected Trump. Now look at us!

  31. #14581

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    Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

    However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

    Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.

  32. #14582

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

    However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

    Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.
    Which is why it needs to go back to the people.

  33. #14583

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

    However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

    Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.
    It doesn’t remove the backstop so much as make it permanent, albeit applying only to NI (rather than the UK-wide) which was always the EU’s first preference.

  34. #14584

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    Angela Merkel has told EU leaders a Brexit extension would be unavoidable if British MPs vote down the deal agreed with Boris Johnson.

    During private talks at the EU summit, the German chancellor told her fellow leaders they could not pretend an extension would not be offered to the UK if it was requested, according to a source familiar with the discussions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-says-merkel

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  35. #14585

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    reading point 77 of the new brexit deal....

    Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field. The precise nature of commitments should be commensurate with the scope and depth of the future relationshipand the economic connectedness of the Parties. These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages. To that end, the Parties should uphold the common high standards applicable in the Union and the United Kingdom at the end of the transition period in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment

  36. #14586

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    In my reading it means we can't get any trade deal that favours us more than the EU, and basically it seems the EU has a very deep concern that we will be better without the EU ... and Boris has given this away ... what's the point of having trade deals if can't be competitive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    The DUP have to pander to their support in NI from their point of view anything that marks NI out as different from the rest of the Union or might encourage closer ties with the Republic is dangerous. I'm not sure a load of cash will cut it this time.

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    It's interesting to see the demographic changes in NI. By around 2021 the Catholics will be in the majority with the Unionists being predominant in the older population and the Catholics in the younger.

    So it might take a few years but in 10 or 15 years time we might see a united Ireland.

  38. #14588

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    In my reading it means we can't get any trade deal that favours us more than the EU, and basically it seems the EU has a very deep concern that we will be better without the EU ... and Boris has given this away ... what's the point of having trade deals if can't be competitive?
    No trade deal can ever make you more or less competitive. All we are usually talking about is a few percentage points on a tariff anyway and these are more than offset by swings in the exchange rate. I read it as being more concerned with employment and product standards. The EU as a whole has far more clout than the UK anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    No trade deal can ever make you more or less competitive. All we are usually talking about is a few percentage points on a tariff anyway and these are more than offset by swings in the exchange rate. I read it as being more concerned with employment and product standards. The EU as a whole has far more clout than the UK anyway.
    We read it very differently. There is clear reference to "competition" and specific reference to "These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages" between the union and the United Kingdom.

    It's pretty obvious what it means and is a new addition that is very restrictive to our ability to negotiate trade deals on whatever terms we want.

  40. #14590

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    Looks like Jez has had a change of heart.

    Jeremy Corbyn announced that Labour will officially back a second referendum as he dismissed Boris Johnsonís new Brexit deal with the EU.


    Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/17/jerem...1/?ito=cbshare

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/







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    ERG members saying they may well back this deal as it leaves open the chance of a no-deal result in 12 months time.

  42. #14592

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    We read it very differently. There is clear reference to "competition" and specific reference to "These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages" between the union and the United Kingdom.

    It's pretty obvious what it means and is a new addition that is very restrictive to our ability to negotiate trade deals on whatever terms we want.
    Then we differ in our readings. 'Competition' and 'unfair advantages' could just as easily refer to artifically low wages or extreme working conditions or looser environmental restritions as to a different tariff regime.

    So I don't agree that it is 'pretty obvious what it means'. It could just as easily refer to government support for individual industrial sectors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    Then we differ in our readings. 'Competition' and 'unfair advantages' could just as easily refer to artifically low wages or extreme working conditions or looser environmental restritions as to a different tariff regime.

    So I don't agree that it is 'pretty obvious what it means'. It could just as easily refer to government support for individual industrial sectors.
    True, but either way it's a provision which means that we won't have full autonomy over our affairs with reference to "state aid, competition, social and employment".

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    But for those concerned with workers' rights and the environment the EU provides a welcome safeguard against those who would exploit them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    True, but either way it's a provision which means that we won't have full autonomy over our affairs with reference to "state aid, competition, social and employment".
    The UK will always be a regulation taker, limiting its autonomy - the real question is whether it’s regulation is more aligned with the EU or the US, the other big regulatory power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    True, but either way it's a provision which means that we won't have full autonomy over our affairs with reference to "state aid, competition, social and employment".
    To be fair, it's not exactly 'legally binding'. It's more a direction of what 'should' happen at the end of the transition period rather than a legal requirement.

    A lot can happen between now and then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    To be fair, it's not exactly 'legally binding'. It's more a direction of what 'should' happen at the end of the transition period rather than a legal requirement.

    A lot can happen between now and then...
    Eurosceptics are reportedly asking Geoffrey Cox if Britain could crash out with a no-deal exit under the current arrangement. They believe that if no trade deal is agreed by the end of 2020, that Britain could switch from full EU rules to World Trade Organisation terms.

    That clown Boris continues to play a blinder....

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    The UK will always be a regulation taker, limiting its autonomy - the real question is whether it’s regulation is more aligned with the EU or the US, the other big regulatory power.
    Under point 77 of the revised deal, the alignment must be between the "Union and the United Kingdom".

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Under point 77 of the revised deal, the alignment must be between the "Union and the United Kingdom".
    You’re missing the point. The idea of regulatory autonomy for a country the size of the UK is a myth - in reality it will be compelled to ‘pick sides’. If you think the EU is playing hardball, you’ve seen nothing yet (from both the EU and the US). As for point 77, if it’s in the political declaration, it carries limited legal force.

  50. #14600

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    After moving around Kent, Surrey and Sussex have now settled on the edge of Romney Marsh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Eurosceptics are reportedly asking Geoffrey Cox if Britain could crash out with a no-deal exit under the current arrangement. They believe that if no trade deal is agreed by the end of 2020, that Britain could switch from full EU rules to World Trade Organisation terms.

    That clown Boris continues to play a blinder....
    Classic Dom.

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