Brexit - Post Match Reaction

LOLs. You've been owned by me a few times on here, without even trying too hard

 

 

 

Debating on a footie forum, where people have time to google **** to make their point or consider their response (or generally spout crap), is completely different to live debating. I'm a seasoned debater (not a 'mass' one before you say it), starting at school, competing nationally and now I'm a thought leader often being involved in industry panel debates.

You might be fine talking about your own industry where (hopefully) you know something about the subject. The trouble is you also spout large on things you know nothing about. Like the radio caller you confuse feelings for knowledge. If you knew more you'd be embarrassed by your claims.

LOLs. You've been owned by me a few times on here, without even trying too hard

 

 

 

Debating on a footie forum, where people have time to google **** to make their point or consider their response (or generally spout crap), is completely different to live debating. I'm a seasoned debater (not a 'mass' one before you say it), starting at school, competing nationally and now I'm a thought leader often being involved in industry panel debates.

Lol, even I thrash you on here, and I'm only 6 years old.

What is winding me up is the smug EU politicians patronising our great country, on the basis that they seem to have headed off the populist revolt amongst their own voters. Well guys, laugh about it while you can, because the fundamentals are still the economy, not how many votes you can garner from your dumb electorate. As the OP says, it is all about the economy, stupid.

So, what is clear to anyone who has a brain, is that it appears the greatest concern of the other EU countries now, is the right for their citizens to remain in the UK, with all the benefits that gives. So, if we are so f** ked, why do 3 million EU citizens want to remain here, or expats want to return, despite Brexit?

Employment is number one, given that youth unemployment runs in Greece at 47%, Spain at 44%, Italy at 38%, Portugal at 28% and France at 25%. The UK is 13%, by the way. So, when some politician from any of these countries pats Theresa May on the back in sympathy, think how they are failing their own youth and have nothing to be smug about. She is in this position, largely because the youth voters in this country are spoilt, naive and their votes can be bought with promises that can't be paid for, much like their student loans. Ask a young Italian whether he wants a job in London, any job and stop throwing bricks at the police, you young Marxist jerk-offs.

Most expats just want the right to come back and live out their final years in the greatest country in the world, while working tax payers subsidise their care.

We need a Prime Minister who says f*** you, to some slime ball, Merkel poodle, like Macron and tells him that you only got in because Hollande was ten times worse than Theresa May was. Mate, keep kissing Merkels fat ass, because we won't.

Don't get me started on Italian politicians...

 

Employment is number one, given that youth unemployment runs in Greece at 47%, Spain at 44%, Italy at 38%, Portugal at 28% and France at 25%. .

What the euro experiment has done to the youth of southern Europe, is nothing short of scandelous... yet no apology is made by their "representatives" in Brussels

Like how the Brexit loons claim that the great British public is wiser than the elites when they agree on Brexit but is immediately dismissed as thick and deluded when it votes in large numbers for Corbyn. If Corbyn was seen as promising lots of free swag, then he simply took a page out of the Brexiteer playbook.

It would also be useful if our kipper friends were precise in their terminology. Re. youth unemployment - it is widely agreed that using rates rather than ratios (or preferably both) can be deeply misleading. Educate yourselves on the difference before mindlessly copying and pasting from Google like excitable parrots.

More important, while the economy matters, the elixir of economic growth in the long-run is productivity growth. The UK can point its finger and chuckle at the structurally low levels of economic activity in some countries (though how and why the EU should be singularly blamed is anyone's guess), but the Uk has got its own massive problems to straighten out in terms of poor productivity. Alas nobody's explained how leaving the EU will solve this.

What is winding me up is the smug EU politicians patronising our great country, on the basis that they seem to have headed off the populist revolt amongst their own voters. Well guys, laugh about it while you can, because the fundamentals are still the economy, not how many votes you can garner from your dumb electorate. As the OP says, it is all about the economy, stupid.

So, what is clear to anyone who has a brain, is that it appears the greatest concern of the other EU countries now, is the right for their citizens to remain in the UK, with all the benefits that gives. So, if we are so f** ked, why do 3 million EU citizens want to remain here, or expats want to return, despite Brexit?

 

Employment is number one, given that youth unemployment runs in Greece at 47%, Spain at 44%, Italy at 38%, Portugal at 28% and France at 25%. The UK is 13%, by the way. So, when some politician from any of these countries pats Theresa May on the back in sympathy, think how they are failing their own youth and have nothing to be smug about. She is in this position, largely because the youth voters in this country are spoilt, naive and their votes can be bought with promises that can't be paid for, much like their student loans. Ask a young Italian whether he wants a job in London, any job and stop throwing bricks at the police, you young Marxist jerk-offs.

 

Most expats just want the right to come back and live out their final years in the greatest country in the world, while working tax payers subsidise their care.

 

We need a Prime Minister who says f*** you, to some slime ball, Merkel poodle, like Macron and tells him that you only got in because Hollande was ten times worse than Theresa May was. Mate, keep kissing Merkels fat ass, because we won't.

 

Don't get me started on Italian politicians...

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/france-youth-unemployment-oecd-a7752816.html

What the euro experiment has done to the youth of southern Europe, is nothing short of scandelous... yet no apology is made by their "representatives" in Brussels

They are too busy whistling in the dark. The stats. I quoted are OECD figures that the EU politicians would prefer to ignore. Indefensible in my opinion unless you are intellectually challenged and a brainwashed leftie.

OECD Definition of Youth unemployment rate:The youth unemployment rate is the number of unemployed 15-24 year-olds expressed as a percentage of the youth labour force. Unemployed people are those who report that they are without work, that they are available for work and that they have taken active steps to find work in the last four weeks.

3 million EU citizens are desperate to remain in the UK, despite the golden opportunities the EU provides them:lol:. Actually the golden opportunity the EU provides, is to the politicians and civil servants. Think Kinnock and you get the idea.

It was you who called you James O'Brien, wasn't it pal? The combination of circular reasoning, repetitiveness and plain old fûckwîttery is a dead give away

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/france-youth-unemployment-oecd-a7752816.html

Alright, so let's assume your googling is right and youth unemployment is not a bigger problem in France than the UK . What is the reason for the "sclerotic French economy that the new President, Emmanuel Macron, urgently needs to reform" that the article refers to?

You're on the wrong side of a losing argument and you just keep digging, don't you? The fact is that 3 million EU citizens wish to remain in a post-Brexit UK. Explain that one away in your own words, not a paper you read.

It was you who called you James O'Brien, wasn't it pal? The combination of circular reasoning, repetitiveness and plain old fûckwîttery is a dead give away

Back on ignore, troll...

France's economic miracle since the recession.

Take some economics classes Trident. Then come back and maybe we can have a proper discussion.

France's economic miracle since the recession.

 

You havent allowed for Britains population growth. GDP per capita growth has been almost identical.

In April this year, David Davis said it was not inevitable, even with Brexit, that the UK would lose the European Medicines Agency and the Banking Authority. Yesterday, it took the EU all of four minutes to decide finally on the relocation of 1,000 highly skilled jobs to Europe.

As more and more staff from the City and elsewhere in London are filmed - a la Lehman Brothers - leaving their UK HQs for good, I wonder whether the penny will drop with Davis, Fox, May et al.?

Alright, so let's assume your googling is right and youth unemployment is not a bigger problem in France than the UK . What is the reason for the "sclerotic French economy that the new President, Emmanuel Macron, urgently needs to reform" that the article refers to?

 

You're on the wrong side of a losing argument and you just keep digging, don't you? The fact is that 3 million EU citizens wish to remain in a post-Brexit UK. Explain that one away in your own words, not a paper you read.

France's situation disproves your headbanging about the EU dummy. It has some serious structural problems which are slowing growth due to domestic policy. Other EU countries are growing extremely well, therefore most rational people would conclude the EU is not responsible but rather national policy. You should be more concerned about why Britain had the lowest economic growth in the whole of the EU last quarter - bottom out of 28, half the rate of 'sclerotic' France.

Your fantasy that the 3m EU workers here are distressed Italian waiters is just that, a fantasy. By far EU immigrants tend to come from the poorer former Soviet bloc economies and they come for higher wages. Far more British people live in France, Spain and Italy than we have their nationals living here.

France's economic miracle since the recession.

 

... and that is with Government spending in France being 57% of GDP (compared to 42% in the UK). Showing that the socialists spending their way out of recession, isn't always the answer...

... and that is with Government spending in France being 57% of GDP (compared to 42% in the UK). Showing that the socialists spending their way out of recession, isn't always the answer...

Aside from the fact that the size of the state in the economy has nothing to do with 'spending their way out of recession' - because it's long been that size even under the Gaullists - what does this have to do with the EU?

France's situation disproves your headbanging about the EU dummy. It has some serious structural problems which are slowing growth due to domestic policy. Other EU countries are growing extremely well, therefore most rational people would conclude the EU is not responsible but rather national policy. You should be more concerned about why Britain had the lowest economic growth in the whole of the EU last quarter - bottom out of 28, below 'sclerotic' France.

 

Your fantasy that the 3m EU workers here are distressed Italian waiters is just that, a fantasy. By far EU immigrants tend to come from the poorer former Soviet bloc economies and they come for higher wages. Far more British people live in France, Spain and Italy than we have their nationals living here.

Here's an article from your favourite paper, only a year ago.

France and Italy could be the next European economies to crash

Denied the option of devaluation, both countries have relied on debt-funded public spending to maintain economic activity and living standards. The people and their representatives refuse to face reality.

Italian total real economy debt (that is, government, household and business) is around 259 per cent of GDP, up 55 per cent since 2007. France’s equivalent debt is around 280 per cent of GDP, up 66 per cent since 2007. This ignores unfunded pension and healthcare obligations as well as contingent commitments to Eurozone bailouts. Debt will increase in critical levels quickly without corrective action.

France and Italy cannot avoid a financial crisis in an environment of low growth and low inflation. Real GDP growth would need to be around twice the current projected rates to stabilise and then reduce government debt-to-GDP ratios.

Still, I expect that situation has been fixed in the last quarter...

Here's an article from your favourite paper, only a year ago.

 

 

 

Still, I expect that situation has been fixed in the last quarter...

Dont be shy, give us the comparable figure for the UK. According to the Taxpayers Alliance on the same measure we are on 500% - ie twice as bad

Aside from the fact that the size of the state in the economy has nothing to do with 'spending their way out of recession' - because it's long been that size even under the Gaullists - what does this have to do with the EU?

None are as blind as those that won't see:

Denied the option of devaluation, both countries have relied on debt-funded public spending to maintain economic activity and living standards

Aside from the fact that the size of the state in the economy has nothing to do with 'spending their way out of recession' - because it's long been that size even under the Gaullists - what does this have to do with the EU?

I would suggest that France's problems are less to do with the EU (and the Euro) and more to do with employment legislation that strangleholds business. Any attempt to become more like the UK or Germany is strongly resisted by the Unions.

Greece, Italy and Spain, however, are unable to respond in the way they may have done in the past, as membership of the single currency prevents them from doing so. I mean, who's stupid idea was it to tie Southern Europe's economies to Northern Europe... still no apology from the perpetrators in Brussels.

Dont be shy, give us the comparable figure for the UK. According to the Taxpayers Alliance on the same measure we are on 500% - ie twice as bad

On the same measure??? I don't think so:

Taxdodgers Alliance: The real national debt extends far beyond the government's formal measurements. It also includes substantial liabilities in relation to unfunded public sector pensions, unfunded state pensions, the Private Finance Initiative (PFI), nuclear decommissioning and a number of other items including liabilities arising from the bank bail-outs.

Back on ignore, as you are a waste of bandwidth...

On the same measure??? I don't think so:

 

Back on ignore, as you are a waste of bandwidth...

Its the same model - Government debt + private debt + corporate debt = total debt. Britain's is around 500% while France and Italy are comparatively home free. Its nice of you to be concerned for them but probably best look closer to home. Heres some economic help for you.

I would suggest that France's problems are less to do with the EU (and the Euro) and more to do with employment legislation that strangleholds business. Any attempt to become more like the UK or Germany is strongly resisted by the Unions.

 

Greece, Italy and Spain, however, are unable to respond in the way they may have done in the past, as membership of the single currency prevents them from doing so. I mean, who's stupid idea was it to tie Southern Europe's economies to Northern Europe... still no apology from the perpetrators in Brussels.

While I go along with your general sentiment, nobody forced PIGS into the single currency, they were equally to blame for the resulting carnage. They were desperate to join a project which was always going to be disastrous for themselves and the project itself, making promises they could never hope to keep which the Germans et al just accepted anyway.

While I go along with your general sentiment, nobody forced PIGS into the single currency, they were equally to blame for the resulting carnage. They were desperate to join a project which was always going to be disastrous for themselves and the project itself, making promises they could never hope to keep which the Germans et al just accepted anyway.

The Greeks lied their way in with falsified figures for tax collection and budget deficit. It was financial suicide for them.

While I go along with your general sentiment, nobody forced PIGS into the single currency, they were equally to blame for the resulting carnage. They were desperate to join a project which was always going to be disastrous for themselves and the project itself, making promises they could never hope to keep which the Germans et al just accepted anyway.

How else were PIGS able to afford Mercedes and BMW's?

The Greeks lied their way in with falsified figures for tax collection and budget deficit. It was financial suicide for them.

Aided & abetted by the EU & Goldman Sachs who both knew full well they couldn't meet the criteria, but fudged it.

Greece needs to devalue its currency but is unable to. It has been thrown to the wolves & its people betrayed because ever closer union is more important.

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Aided & abetted by the EU & Goldman Sachs who both knew full well they couldn't meet the criteria, but fudged it.

 

Greece needs to devalue its currency but is unable to. It has been thrown to the wolves & its people betrayed because ever closer union is more important.

The issue was Greece wanting to be in the club with the wealthier nations. They thought, wrongly, just by being the same club they would end up as rich as them. It was a bad choice for Greece by Greece, the EU didnt force them into it. Remember only 19 of the 28 countries are in the euro the rest made the free choice to stay out.

Aided & abetted by the EU & Goldman Sachs who both knew full well they couldn't meet the criteria, but fudged it. Greece needs to devalue its currency but is unable to. It has been thrown to the wolves & its people betrayed because ever closer union is more important.

Luckily the UK no longer has to bail the work shy, tax dodging Greeks out of the sh !t they are in...

#feelingsoverfacts #thekipperway

Its the same model - Government debt + private debt + corporate debt = total debt. Britain's is around 500% while France and Italy are comparatively home free. Its nice of you to be concerned for them but probably best look closer to home. Heres some economic help for you.

 

 

To be fair those numbers are rather dated and do no take into account subsequent efforts to deleverage. The latest set of McKinsey figures are here and present the UK in a more favourable light.

http://www.mckinsey.com/global-themes/employment-and-growth/debt-and-not-much-deleveraging (page 4)

However, they too are likely dated as household debt, the main driver of deleveraging during the recession and recovery, has again started to pick up.

To be fair those numbers are rather dated and do no take into account subsequent efforts to deleverage. The latest set of McKinsey figures are here and present the UK in a more favourable light.

 

http://www.mckinsey.com/global-themes/employment-and-growth/debt-and-not-much-deleveraging (page 4)

 

However, they too are likely dated as household debt, the main driver of deleveraging during the recession and recovery, has again started to pick up.

The figures are dated, but the overall situation has got worse since then, not better, as the figure below shows. The reason the headline figure is lower than elsewhere is because it excludes financial companies debt - and Britain is a financial centre

The figures are dated, but the overall situation has got worse since then, not better, as the figure below shows. The reason the headline figure is lower than elsewhere is because it excludes financial companies debt - and Britain is a financial centre

 

Being a financial hub or a destination for FDI -both of which bump up debt- are not in themselves risky or bad, depending on the legal regime in place and the way in which the foreign creditors/depositors are treated. This is especially true with corporate debt as companies may set up and incur debt in one country but it will be supported by earnings in another country.

Being a financial hub or a destination for FDI -both of which bump up debt- are not in themselves risky or bad, depending on the legal regime in place and the way in which the foreign creditors/depositors are treated. This is especially true with corporate debt as companies may set up and incur debt in one country but it will be supported by earnings in another country.

Sure, its possible to slice it in different ways. My main aim was to shoot down Dopey's latest assertion that France and Italy are screwed and we are just dandy - when in reality there isnt much to choose between us in terms of debt.

The issue was Greece wanting to be in the club with the wealthier nations. They thought, wrongly, just by being the same club they would end up as rich as them. It was a bad choice for Greece by Greece, the EU didnt force them into it. Remember only 19 of the 28 countries are in the euro the rest made the free choice to stay out.

The Greeks didn't meet the set criteria, but the EU couldn't use that to stop them joining, because the French fudged it as well. They had to have the French in, so they turned a blind eye to Greece. Whether the Greeks wanted it or not is irrelevant, fiscal rules put in place by the EU were ignored because it was a political project & that trumped everything.

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The Greeks didn't meet the set criteria, but the EU couldn't use that to stop them joining, because the French fudged it as well. They had to have the French in, so they turned a blind eye to Greece. Whether the Greeks wanted it or not is irrelevant, fiscal rules put in place by the EU were ignored because it was a political project & that trumped everything.

 

 

 

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And the French have been fudging it ever since. Due to Hollande's largesses with the public purse in a vain attempt to be popular and in a position to run again this year, we're going to miss the set target by a fair old number of fractions of a point again. Still the EU will just gloss over it again.

On the same measure??? I don't think so:

 

Back on ignore, as you are a waste of bandwidth...

You sad b*stard.

One year on, and I still haven't heard a single credible argument from a Brexiteer on the benefits of Brexit.

One year on, and I still haven't heard a single credible argument from a Brexiteer on the benefits of Brexit.

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Question to the floor, was Andrea Ledsom right to say that the media should be more 'patriotic' in it's reporting of the Brexit negotiations ?

( For me, she sounds more like a member of the North Korean politburo. )

Is there anybody now in any doubt? Labours position is that we will not be members of the single market post Brexit . Even though it was in their manifesto some didn't seem the grasp it. Perhaps tonight's vote & Corbyn subsequently sacking people who voted for SM membership, may finally convince them.

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Is there anybody now in any doubt? Labours position is that we will not be members of the single market post Brexit . Even though it was in their manifesto some didn't seem the grasp it.

Utter pony, Lord Pony. You seem to be confused by politics.

Here's the Labour manifesto commitment. Read carefully:

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

If only we could have had the strong and stable leadership that Jeremy Corbyn and his loyal band of supporters would have brought to government.

Utter pony, Lord Pony. You seem to be confused by politics.

 

Here's the Labour manifesto commitment. Read carefully:

 

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

Do you understand the difference between "retaining the benefits" & retaining membership of the single market?

Some, including you, are in utter denial of labours position. Corbyn sacks shadow ministers who vote in favour of staying in the SM & still you don't get it. When it comes to the SM, there's a cigarette paper between Tory & Labour policy. Both want to maintain the benefits, whilst not being members, the have cake & eat it position. Do you understand that in the Lords & again in the commons last night, labour front benches refused to vote for a motion advocating staying in? Not only that,but within mins of the vote people who did vote for it,got sacked. I've no doubt they'll whinge, complain & vote against any deal, because cake & eat it, is impossible to deliver. But their alternative will not be staying in ala Norway, that horse has bolted.

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Utter pony, Lord Pony. You seem to be confused by politics.

 

Here's the Labour manifesto commitment. Read carefully:

 

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

So the best approximation of Labour's position seems to be to leave but retain the benefits?

I thought that was the swivel-eyed Brexiteer, cloud cuckoo land, loony toon Tory bastard, "me little ol' kipper", hopelessly naive position?

So the best approximation of Labour's position seems to be to leave but retain the benefits?

 

I thought that was the swivel-eyed Brexiteer, cloud cuckoo land, loony toon Tory bastard, "me little ol' kipper", hopelessly naive position?

When you are in Government it is - because you are inevitably heading for a car crash and failure. When you are in opposition and don't have to actually deliver on your motherhood and apple pie promises, its actually quite tactically smart.

Do you understand the difference between "retaining the benefits" & retaining membership of the single market?

 

Some, including you, are in utter denial of labours position. Corbyn sacks shadow ministers who vote in favour of staying in the SM & still you don't get it. When it comes to the SM, there's a cigarette paper between Tory & Labour policy. Both want to maintain the benefits, whilst not being members, the have cake & eat it position. Do you understand that in the Lords & again in the commons last night, labour front benches refused to vote for a motion advocating staying in? Not only that,but within mins of the vote people who did vote for it,got sacked. I've no doubt they'll whinge, complain & vote against any deal, because cake & eat it, is impossible to deliver. But their alternative will not be staying in ala Norway, that horse has bolted.

 

 

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So tell me, Pony, how 'retaining the benefits' is actually incompatible with retaining membership. That's the point - it's a very deliberate fudge. You read it as hard Brexit because you've been Pavlov-conditioned by Ukippery to see everything that way. So Labour have suckered Brexit Jihadists (aka BJs) like you and they've suckered remainers into thinking they're on their side. That's politics.

Most careful politicians in Westminster are watching the political tide and will be watching it closely over the next two years - two years in which the EU will repeatedly trounce the woeful Davis, but more importantly two years (or less) in which the impact on the economy and especially jobs - Labour's red line - will be laid bare.

And it's not only Labour who's playing this game. Large sections of the Tories are doing the same thing. As I've said many times now, you BJs should be very worried that May, Davis et al are the ones tasked with delivering Brexit.

So tell me, Pony, how 'retaining the benefits' is actually incompatible with retaining membership. That's the point - it's a very deliberate fudge. You read it as hard Brexit because you've been Pavlov-conditioned by Ukippery to see everything that way. So Labour have suckered Brexit Jihadists (aka BJs) like you and they've suckered remainers into thinking they're on their side. That's politics.

 

Most careful politicians in Westminster are watching the political tide and will be watching it closely over the next two years - two years in which the EU will repeatedly trounce the woeful Davis, but more importantly two years (or less) in which the impact on the economy and especially jobs - Labour's red line - will be laid bare.

 

And it's not only Labour who's playing this game. Large sections of the Tories are doing the same thing. As I've said many times now, you BJs should be very worried that May, Davis et al are the ones tasked with delivering Brexit.

The Labour manifesto made it clear that freedom of movement will end on leaving the EU (p.28 ). Hard to see how that can be reconciled with retaining ALL the benefits of the single market given any Norway-type deal involves accepting FoM more or less unqualified.

The idea that Labour is simply mimicing the mantra of the Tories i.e. leave but retain the benefits is plain nonsense, however.

While it falls short of FoM, Labour has made it clear it favours a more open and flexible immigration system than the Tories and certainly than the jihadis. Among other things, it hasn't made cutting net migration a priority. The Mail even alleged Corbyn wanted 'unlimited immigration'.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/labour-policy-paper-leak-jeremy-corbyn-uncontrolled-migration-theresa-may-daily-mail

In other words, this gives "talk of leave but retain the benefits" some practical bite. Flexibility on immigration gives it negotiating power over the degree to which it can secure those benefits. Of course, absence of FoM, it may be a pale imitation of full SM access. But it opens up opportunities that are precluded by the the red lines and dogmatisim of the hard brexiteers.

Finally, just to clear things up for the kippers who claim otherwise: there is no mention in the Labour manifesto of leaving the customs union. Nada, zilch, rien.

The Labour manifesto made it clear that freedom of movement will end on leaving the EU (p.28 ). Hard to see how that can be reconciled with retaining ALL the benefits of the single market given any Norway-type deal involves accepting FoM more or less unqualified.

 

The idea that Labour is simply mimicing the mantra of the Tories i.e. leave but retain the benefits is plain nonsense, however.

 

While it falls short of FoM, Labour has made it clear it favours a more open and flexible immigration system than the Tories and certainly than the jihadis. Among other things, it hasn't made cutting net migration a priority. The Mail even alleged Corbyn wanted 'unlimited immigration'.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/labour-policy-paper-leak-jeremy-corbyn-uncontrolled-migration-theresa-may-daily-mail

 

In other words, this gives "talk of leave but retain the benefits" some practical bite. Flexibility on immigration gives it negotiating power over the degree to which it can secure those benefits. Of course, absence of FoM, it may be a pale imitation of full SM access. But it opens up opportunities that are precluded by the the red lines and dogmatisim of the hard brexiteers.

 

Finally, just to clear things up for the kippers who claim otherwise: there is no mention in the Labour manifesto of leaving the customs union. Nada, zilch, rien.

When things are 'hard to reconcile' it's usually - and in this case - because someone is trying to have it both ways, appealing to leavers and remainers. Again, that's the point; I wasn't quoting the manifesto to show how clear things are, but actually how messy they are. There are contradictions in virtually every iteration of soft Brexit. It's likely in practice that the only way a soft Brexit can be done is with no Brexit at all - even the Norway version is fraught with contradictions for the UK. The Swiss model with 10,000 or more individual bilateral agreements is also troublesome, given that the Swiss have just lost a huge battle with the EU on FoM.

As for the suggestion that I've said Labour is 'mimicking' anything the Tories are saying, I've no idea where you get this. What's certainly the case - and I hope this is clearer - is that there are soft-Brexit/remain factions in the Tory party who are waiting for the political tide to turn, just as there are in Labour. The tide may just keep going out, of course, and the UK might fall out of the EU in just the way the BJs hope. The fun - if that's what it is - is in watching it all unfold.