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Thread: Post EU - The Way Forward

  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Clearly which is why even now leavers can't decide what leave looks like..
    This is a ridiculous statement. Leave will look like whatever the British people want it to look like. If they want a low tax, low regulated economy, then over time they’ll get that. If they want Corbynomics, nationalise everything socialist paradise they’ll get that. The British people will decide, far better way to run a sovereign country than 27 other nations dictating our regulations, immigration and tax policies.


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    If we can’t get the simpletons on this forum to agree to any form of Brexit, we have zero chance of getting parliament to agree.

    As Shurlock would say #MSSS


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    Destroying one childish fantasy after another, Ivan Rogers latest intervention:

    https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12...rs-on-brexit/#

  4. #8554

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    This is a ridiculous statement. Leave will look like whatever the British people want it to look like. If they want a low tax, low regulated economy, then over time they’ll get that. If they want Corbynomics, nationalise everything socialist paradise they’ll get that. The British people will decide, far better way to run a sovereign country than 27 other nations dictating our regulations, immigration and tax policies.


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    Your understanding of the EU makes your claim that Jack Stephens is better than Harry Maguire almost insightful pal

  5. #8555

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    I don't remember being asked to vote about ID cards....
    He didn't say a referendum. He said "Can you name another vote where the decision was voted on again BEFORE the result was implemented."

    ID cards were voted in to law by parliament (the elected representatives of the people, don't forget) in 2006, and then voted out again (by parliament) in 2010.

    There were some trials, but nobody can claim it had been implemented.

  6. #8556

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    And it isn't a proper Brexit and I don't support it.
    So there is more than one type of Brexit? Proper Brexits and improper Brexits? Who could have imagined.

  7. #8557

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    I've said it all along the original referendum was flawed the deal with the EU should have come first so that everyone could see exactly what they where voting for on the ballot paper. Hell the leave vote might have even had a better majority if the deal was clearly set out before the referendum so everyone knew exactly where we stood I'm sure plenty of people voted stayed because leaving was an unknown quantity.


    David Cameron went to Brussels cap in hand to try and renegotiate our terms with them before the referendum and was rebuffed on everything. If anyone truly believed they would suddenly change their tune once we voted to leave and give us everything we wanted on a plate they were kidding themselves.

    In fact their hard line tactics probably swayed a few more to want to leave their control. It was clear from that failure by Cameron that cutting all ties would be the only way to truly deliver Brexit.

  8. Default Post EU - The Way Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by saint si View Post
    He didn't say a referendum. He said "Can you name another vote where the decision was voted on again BEFORE the result was implemented."

    ID cards were voted in to law by parliament (the elected representatives of the people, don't forget) in 2006, and then voted out again (by parliament) in 2010.

    There were some trials, but nobody can claim it had been implemented.
    What a load of pony, you know full well I meant a vote the public took part in. An election or a referendum, a national vote, not a parliamentary vote.


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    Last edited by Lord Duckhunter; 13-12-2018 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint si View Post
    So there is more than one type of Brexit? Proper Brexits and improper Brexits? Who could have imagined.
    Brexit - the clue is in the name. Britain exiting the EU. You ask whether there is more than one form of Britain exiting the EU, shooting yourself in the foot as you do so. No doubt you are one of those who want a losers' second referendum because the thick electorate didn't understand what it involved, whether we would stay in either or both of the single market, the customs union, whether the ECJ would still have any sway over our laws, cease having to pay into the EU slush fund, whether we would have some kind of FTA or leave with no deal, etc.

    So how can you insinuate that there can only be a Brexit or not a Brexit, and that there is nothing in between? Have you not heard politicians talking about soft brexits or hard brexits? If we are half in / half out, is that a Brexit? No, it isn't. Leaving on WTO terms is a hard or clean Brexit. Anything involving us not being able to arrange our own trade deals, having to obey ECJ rulings, paying into the slush fund or having to accept uncontrolled freedom of movement of EU citizens is a soft Brexit, or more accurately BRINO, Brexit in name only, i.e. not a proper Brexit.

    Does that help you imagine it?

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    I took one look at the panel on Question Time tonight and thought how bloody typical it was. Good old biased BBC, four Remoaners and one Brexiteer. Not worth watching. And they have the brass neck to claim impartiality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    I took one look at the panel on Question Time tonight and thought how bloody typical it was. Good old biased BBC, four Remoaners and one Brexiteer. Not worth watching. And they have the brass neck to claim impartiality.
    Come on Les you're only watching it because you have a thing for Jo Brand.

    Angela Rayner looks like Iggy Pop in drag.

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    Some of the papers are reporting that the reason May didn't get more support from the EU tonight was because she turned up without any concrete proposals or ideas. Despite Merkel interrupting her 10 minute speech three times to ask "what do you want?" May couldn't offer anything. Its beyond bizarre.

  13. #8563

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    What I find odd with all of this, is that there is one simple issue with Brexit. It is not implementable without either ceding NI, or tearing up the GFA - neither of which can and will happen. Therefore Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, or whatever you want to call it, is not possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    This is a ridiculous statement. Leave will look like whatever the British people want it to look like. If they want a low tax, low regulated economy, then over time they’ll get that. If they want Corbynomics, nationalise everything socialist paradise they’ll get that. The British people will decide, far better way to run a sovereign country than 27 other nations dictating our regulations, immigration and tax policies.


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    Your chatting ****e on the day you voted leave you and all the rest had no idea what leave looked like. We now know what leave looks like and your whining like a little girl because its not the leave you though you where getting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Your chatting ****e on the day you voted leave you and all the rest had no idea what leave looked like. We now know what leave looks like and your whining like a little girl because its not the leave you though you where getting.
    Simply not true!

    We know what a version of leave 'could' look like. Nothing has been agreed upon.

    I've said it before and am happy to repeat myself, there are too many sticky fingers in too many pies (in both the UK and in Europe), for anything other than a hard brexit to be a reality.

  16. #8566

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Simply not true!

    We know what a version of leave 'could' look like. Nothing has been agreed upon.

    I've said it before and am happy to repeat myself, there are too many sticky fingers in too many pies (in both the UK and in Europe), for anything other than a hard brexit to be a reality.
    How does a hard Brexit work with Northern Ireland?

  17. #8567

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Your chatting ****e on the day you voted leave you and all the rest had no idea what leave looked like. We now know what leave looks like and your whining like a little girl because its not the leave you though you where getting.
    It's 'you're' you bloody thicko. It's no wonder you voted remain with intelligence like that.

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Brexit - the clue is in the name. Britain exiting the EU. You ask whether there is more than one form of Britain exiting the EU, shooting yourself in the foot as you do so. No doubt you are one of those who want a losers' second referendum because the thick electorate didn't understand what it involved, whether we would stay in either or both of the single market, the customs union, whether the ECJ would still have any sway over our laws, cease having to pay into the EU slush fund, whether we would have some kind of FTA or leave with no deal, etc.

    So how can you insinuate that there can only be a Brexit or not a Brexit, and that there is nothing in between? Have you not heard politicians talking about soft brexits or hard brexits? If we are half in / half out, is that a Brexit? No, it isn't. Leaving on WTO terms is a hard or clean Brexit. Anything involving us not being able to arrange our own trade deals, having to obey ECJ rulings, paying into the slush fund or having to accept uncontrolled freedom of movement of EU citizens is a soft Brexit, or more accurately BRINO, Brexit in name only, i.e. not a proper Brexit.

    Does that help you imagine it?
    We're leaving the European Union on March 29th, delivering precisely as directed by the result of the 2016 referendum.

    You won, get over it.

  19. Default The Euro Holed Below the Waterline

    Today's more important news:

    The European Central Bank is to halt its €2.6 trillion programme of bond purchases this month despite the deepening economic slowdown in the eurozone and the lack of any safety buffer against a deflation shock. The four-year blitz of emergency stimulus saved the European banking system and helped lift Europe out of an economic slump but has failed to generate self-sustaining momentum. Core inflation remains nailed to the floor at 1.1pc. Such a low level at this late stage of the cycle raises the risk of deflation and poisonous debt dynamics in the next recession.Mario Draghi, the ECB’s president, said quantitative easing had been a resounding success given the impossible circumstances. It was the “only driver of this recovery” at crucial moments.
    Critics say the ECB waited too long before launching QE in early 2015 - six years after the US Federal Reserve - and allowed the deflationary forces to become lodged in parts of the system. It may now be trapped. The window is closing as the ageing global expansion fades. “It is the usual soothing babble from the ECB,” said Ashoka Mody, a former bail-out chief for the International Monetary Fund in Europe. “They are seriously underestimating the pace of the slowdown. China’s stimulus has run out and this is causing a world trade slowdown, with cascading effects through the global economy. ”Professor Mody, now at Princeton University, called it a grave policy error to declare ‘mission accomplished’ and cut off stimulus when it has failed to meet its inflation target and while growth is crumbling. Italy has one foot in recession. It faces an incipient credit crunch. Germany contracted in the third quarter. The Sentix index of business expectations for the eurozone has fallen to minus 18.8, the lowest since the EMU banking crisis in 2012.

    The ECB is hitting technical and political limits. Its balance sheet has soared to 42pc of GDP. There is a scarcity of high-grade assets to buy. The bank pinned its colours to the mast long ago by stating that further purchases might be tantamount to monetary financing of deficits, risking a violation of EU treaty law. A German-led bloc of monetary hawks is using this to shut the programme.
    Behind this lies a further worry. A side-effect of QE is an explosion in the Target2 liabilities of southern central banks within the ECB’s internal payment system. The Bank of Italy’s ‘debt’ to the ECB has reached €492bn, while the Bundesbank’s ‘credits’ have hit €928bn. This causing a political storm in Germany since it amounts to covert financing for capital flight from Italy without democratic assent from the German parliament. Losses could be huge in a euro break-up scenario. “Italy is the fault line. The ECB is the only organization buying its debt and this is about to stop,” said Prof Mody. “Italy’s real interest rate is around 2.5pc and it is the real interest that counts. With a growth rate near zero this is unbearable. The underlying numbers are cruel. Slow, creeping debt-deflation is inevitable and will become progressively worse,” he said. Prof Mody said the ECB has also been soaking up most of the net debt issuance of Spain and Portugal. “They are declared model performers but will we will see what happens when the tide recedes,” he said. He said the EU authorities had become obsessed with the minutiae of Italy’s budget deficit, seemingly oblivious to the much more potent issues about to engulf them. “They are like a drunk man looking under the lamppost because that is where the light is. They don’t seem to realize that the tsunami of rising world interest rates and slowing trade is about to sweep them away,” he said
    Obviously, the f***ers have tried to hide the news behind their ambush of May. I say get into the lifeboats ASAP...

  20. #8570

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Some of the papers are reporting that the reason May didn't get more support from the EU tonight was because she turned up without any concrete proposals or ideas. Despite Merkel interrupting her 10 minute speech three times to ask "what do you want?" May couldn't offer anything. Its beyond bizarre.
    She really is totally useless. All she had to say to them was that as things stood she could not get the backstop through Parliament and that therefore we wouldn't be signing the deal with the backstop as it was, disallowing us from leaving it unilaterally and without a termination date. Unless they amended it to be acceptable to our Parliament, we could not sign it, so they would force us into trading with them through WTO terms. Under those circumstances we would not be paying them the £39 billion. Simple.

  21. #8571

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Brexit - the clue is in the name. Britain exiting the EU. You ask whether there is more than one form of Britain exiting the EU, shooting yourself in the foot as you do so. No doubt you are one of those who want a losers' second referendum because the thick electorate didn't understand what it involved, whether we would stay in either or both of the single market, the customs union, whether the ECJ would still have any sway over our laws, cease having to pay into the EU slush fund, whether we would have some kind of FTA or leave with no deal, etc.

    So how can you insinuate that there can only be a Brexit or not a Brexit, and that there is nothing in between? Have you not heard politicians talking about soft brexits or hard brexits? If we are half in / half out, is that a Brexit? No, it isn't. Leaving on WTO terms is a hard or clean Brexit. Anything involving us not being able to arrange our own trade deals, having to obey ECJ rulings, paying into the slush fund or having to accept uncontrolled freedom of movement of EU citizens is a soft Brexit, or more accurately BRINO, Brexit in name only, i.e. not a proper Brexit.

    Does that help you imagine it?
    You seem to be arguing with yourself. My point is precisely that there are infinite different forms Brexit can take and most of your above rambling is saying the same thing.

    Given that we now agree on that, it also follows that on referendum day nobody knew which of these forms would ultimately transpire. Even today we don't know for sure, though we certainly have a better idea of what forms it cannot take.

    Hence the phrase "you didn't know what you were voting for". It's not a personal attack, or a critique on anyone's intellect, it's just a point of demonstrable fact.

    (and aside to this, the PM's deal and future relationship is actually for a hard brexit as originally defined. i.e. leaving the single market. You lot are reading too much in to the withdrawal agreement which simply means we have to quite sensibly go through a transition phase to get there)

  22. #8572

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint si View Post
    You seem to be arguing with yourself. My point is precisely that there are infinite different forms Brexit can take and most of your above rambling is saying the same thing.

    Given that we now agree on that, it also follows that on referendum day nobody knew which of these forms would ultimately transpire. Even today we don't know for sure, though we certainly have a better idea of what forms it cannot take.

    Hence the phrase "you didn't know what you were voting for". It's not a personal attack, or a critique on anyone's intellect, it's just a point of demonstrable fact.

    (and aside to this, the PM's deal and future relationship is actually for a hard brexit as originally defined. i.e. leaving the single market. You lot are reading too much in to the withdrawal agreement which simply means we have to quite sensibly go through a transition phase to get there)
    Thanks for confirming that there are many forms of Brexit. Your previous post seemed to suggest that there weren't. Perhaps you just worded your post badly.

    There aren't "infinite" types of Brexit. There are certainly a few variations, but you see, it is this sort of woolly opinion from you that leads to the appearance of your confusion.

    And you are also confused about what constitutes a hard Brexit too. It isn't just leaving the single market, it is leaving without a trade deal with the EU and trading under WTO terms. What your lot like to call "crashing out," "going over a cliff edge" etc.

    There is nothing much wrong with the concept of a withdrawal agreement or an implementation period, whatever they like to call it. It is the so-called "backstop" arrangement that is the problem. Read up on it.

  23. Default

    I should thank this thread (Bexy?) for highlighting this tweet. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but it is from October and seems to be the only rational explanation for what is going on. Otherwise, our government really is dumb...

    Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII. The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible. Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility. The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible. The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include Orban. On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaigns. The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself.
    11:25 am - 1 Oct 2018

  24. #8574

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    What I find odd with all of this, is that there is one simple issue with Brexit. It is not implementable without either ceding NI, or tearing up the GFA - neither of which can and will happen. Therefore Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, or whatever you want to call it, is not possible.
    It looks more like a semi lob-on Brexit

  25. #8575

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Bognor View Post
    It looks more like a semi lob-on Brexit
    Well, I think we can all agree that whatever Brexit it is, Brexiteers have been spun a cock and balls story.

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    Is the world just made up of EU countries then? Stupid story really. I'll just go elsewhere if it costs too much. Simple really.

    7 Euros charge, hardly bank breaking stuff.

  28. Default Post EU - The Way Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Simply not true!

    We know what a version of leave 'could' look like. Nothing has been agreed upon.

    I've said it before and am happy to repeat myself, there are too many sticky fingers in too many pies (in both the UK and in Europe), for anything other than a hard brexit to be a reality.
    He’s calling people thick, but seems to confuse the future relationship with the withdrawal agreement. This happens all the time with the alleged “brightest” of our electorate . Lucas was at it last night on QT.

    We’re no nearer knowing what Brexit looks like now, than we were the day we voted. What we do know is what the cost/terms of leaving are, if we sign up to May’s turd. The political declaration is so wholly that it can be interpreted in anyway. It could turn out to be the simplest trade deal ever negotiated, it could be a comprehensive FTA, could be Norway+ or a bespoke deal. The only thing it can’t be (under May’s turd) is a permanent “no deal”, but that’s not the preferred option of anyone.

    A50 was written in such a way that these issues were inevitable, unless the EU seriously thought you’d walk away without a withdrawal agreement. Even now they have absolutely no incentive or reason to water down the backstop. Why would they, when May has made in very clear she won’t contemplate a no deal withdrawal. Even if you think no deal is the most horrendous thing that could ever happen, you can’t allow the other side to know that. The worst victim of a no deal withdrawal will be Eire, but they are not wetting their pants over it like our lightweight politicians are. They maybe in private, but they’re not giving the other side (The UK) that vibe. We are.




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    Last edited by Lord Duckhunter; 14-12-2018 at 09:35 AM.

  29. #8579

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    I should thank this thread (Bexy?) for highlighting this tweet. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but it is from October and seems to be the only rational explanation for what is going on. Otherwise, our government really is dumb...
    "
    Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII. The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible. Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility. The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible. The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include Orban. On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaigns. The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself."


    Of course that pre-supposes that nobody in the EU will read that paragraph.

  30. #8580

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabbage_Face View Post
    Is the world just made up of EU countries then? Stupid story really. I'll just go elsewhere if it costs too much. Simple really.

    7 Euros charge, hardly bank breaking stuff.
    Its a true story, but another niggle we have to go through. Much like the visa for the US , its there and we have to pay it. It is just another new thing that will cost us, but as you say its only £7 but a family of 4 its £28

  31. #8581

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    The EU will give us nothing as they know that the chances of a second referendum increase by the day.

  32. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    Its a true story, but another niggle we have to go through. Much like the visa for the US , its there and we have to pay it. It is just another new thing that will cost us, but as you say its only £7 but a family of 4 its £28
    It's £6.30...every 3 years. So for a family of 4 it's £8.40 a year...Anyone who spins this as a negative is a moron, it's significantly cheaper then visas to other countries and the EU have said we will have access to this deal or no deal.

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  33. #8583

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    Well, I think we can all agree that whatever Brexit it is, Brexiteers have been spun a cock and balls story.
    You really are so up your own arse you think anyone with a different perspective has been 'duped' or 'fooled', don't you? Epitome of the metro elite.

  34. #8584

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    "
    Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII. The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible. Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility. The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible. The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include Orban. On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaigns. The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself."


    Of course that pre-supposes that nobody in the EU will read that paragraph.
    No one in the EU will understand it because it's dual language - English and horsesh it.

  35. #8585

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    The EU will give us nothing as they know that the chances of a second referendum increase by the day.
    The EU will give us nothing because Theresa can't even tell them what she actually wants. They have already said as much.

    Her little tour of Europe over the last couple of days is just a charade. We know it, the EU know it, and she knows it. She isn't fooling anybody, and she is just embarrassing herself and the country, which is already a total laughing stock in the eyes of EU and other other world leaders.

  36. #8586

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange View Post
    You really are so up your own arse you think anyone with a different perspective has been 'duped' or 'fooled', don't you? Epitome of the metro elite.
    Why does me thinking that others have been duped make me up my own arse? And what do you mean by metro elite?

  37. #8587

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_clark View Post
    It's £6.30...every 3 years. So for a family of 4 it's £8.40 a year...Anyone who spins this as a negative is a moron, it's significantly cheaper then visas to other countries and the EU have said we will have access to this deal or no deal
    It part of a low level of hassle which will creep back into everyday life. Its not just the money - its remembering to apply for the visa, to actually spend time doing it and then queing up in the aliens queue rather than the EU passports line an once you get in you face higher roaming charges. Not massive but enough to make things like impulse weekends away much more difficult.

    Thats what leaving the EU means, additional minor hassles in a thousand areas of life.

  38. #8588

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_clark View Post
    It's £6.30...every 3 years. So for a family of 4 it's £8.40 a year...Anyone who spins this as a negative is a moron, it's significantly cheaper then visas to other countries and the EU have said we will have access to this deal or no deal.

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    So something costing more is not a negative lol and you say Im the moron

  39. #8589

  40. #8590

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Destroying one childish fantasy after another, Ivan Rogers latest intervention:

    https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12...rs-on-brexit/#
    That should be set reading for Brexit fantasists everywhere. However, Rogers is dealing purely in facts, so Brexiters have the usual get-out when reading something that ruins their (what's laughingly called) worldview: to insist on living in an alternate universe where facts don't matter.

    Among many stand-outs is this bit:

    Why does the current U.K. debate on sovereignty leave so many corporate players mystified and cold – and I am not, incidentally, for one minute saying such views outweigh others’?

    Because in “taking back control” over our laws and leaving the adjudication and enforcement machinery of what used to be our “home” market, we are privileging notional autonomy over law- making over real power to set the rules by which in practice we shall be governed, since departure from norms set by others when we are not in the room will in practice greatly constrain our room for manoeuvre.

    The massive costs of deviation will force large scale compliance with rules set when we are not part of setting them.

    The EU will decide, on sovereignty and fiscal stability grounds, that it is intolerable for certain kinds of activity to take place completely outside its jurisdiction. We may hate it, and in many instances, it may be unnecessary and unwise.

    What, from the outside, though, can we do about it?

    We shall, in practice, struggle to achieve even observer status in the setting of policies which will have a major impact on our national life.
    This is a beautifully effective demolition of the sheer, mad fantasy of greater 'sovereignty' - a concept that no Brexiter I've ever heard has understood. The point is though - in the pursuit of 'sovereignty, Brexiters will have badly weakened the UK sovereignty, whether it's under May's deal, no deal, Norway+, Canada+ (there is no +++), or any variant of Brexit whatever.

    So when Brexiteers whine about being described as stupid, you can take it as read that they are themselves giving proof of their own stupidity, without any help from remoaners at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    It part of a low level of hassle which will creep back into everyday life. Its not just the money - its remembering to apply for the visa, to actually spend time doing it and then queing up in the aliens queue rather than the EU passports line an once you get in you face higher roaming charges. Not massive but enough to make things like impulse weekends away much more difficult.

    Thats what leaving the EU means, additional minor hassles in a thousand areas of life.
    Yeah but just think how proud we’ll be when we show them our little blue passports.

  42. #8592

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    That should be set reading for Brexit fantasists everywhere. However, Rogers is dealing purely in facts, so Brexiters have the usual get-out when reading something that ruins their (what's laughingly called) worldview: to insist on living in an alternate universe where facts don't matter.

    Among many stand-outs is this bit:



    This is a beautifully effective demolition of the sheer, mad fantasy of greater 'sovereignty' - a concept that no Brexiter I've ever heard has understood. The point is though - in the pursuit of 'sovereignty, Brexiters will have badly weakened the UK sovereignty, whether it's under May's deal, no deal, Norway+, Canada+ (there is no +++), or any variant of Brexit whatever.

    So when Brexiteers whine about being described as stupid, you can take it as read that they are themselves giving proof of their own stupidity, without any help from remoaners at all.
    Yep an excellent speech.

    Annu Bradford of Columbia University builds on the sovereignty point in the following article. Also worth a read.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2c5...ecd7fe48e4.pdf
    Last edited by shurlock; 14-12-2018 at 03:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    We're leaving the European Union on March 29th, delivering precisely as directed by the result of the 2016 referendum.
    As it's Panto season: "Oh no we're not" (possibly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    The EU will give us nothing because Theresa can't even tell them what she actually wants. They have already said as much.

    Her little tour of Europe over the last couple of days is just a charade. We know it, the EU know it, and she knows it. She isn't fooling anybody, and she is just embarrassing herself and the country, which is already a total laughing stock in the eyes of EU and other other world leaders.
    27 countries have more negotiating power than 1 country. What a surprise!

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    I must confess I think Blair speaks well about it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecuk268 View Post
    27 countries have more negotiating power than 1 country. What a surprise!
    Don't forget two world wars and one world cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    I must confess I think Blair speaks well about it all.
    We need to hear more from him.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  48. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    We need to hear more from him.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Good summary of what May needs to do in his Sky interview

  49. Default

    Juncker’s sciatica playing up again today. God what would the #metoo SJW’s make if Trump behaved with birds like this.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eJXnVpcNDwA


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Juncker’s sciatica playing up again today. God what would the #metoo SJW’s make if Trump behaved with birds like this.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eJXnVpcNDwA


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    Go and ogle over Federica Mogherini big fella.

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