Brexit - Post Match Reaction

Leaving the EU is a major constitutional change. The original vote should have required a 60:40 majority tbf

Maybe, but that wasn’t the point he made.

Don’t forget it was a remainer PM and a remainer parliament that didn’t do this.

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Leaving the EU is a major constitutional change. The original vote should have required a 60:40 majority tbf

Serves old Cameron and the remain lot right for being so cocky. That was half the problem.

Ruth Davidson has surprisingly strong backing to be the new Tory leader. I can see it being between her and Rees-Mogg with the main issue being leave or remain

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/09/leave-voting-conservative-party-members-are-starti/?utm_source=website_article&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=tory_members_july_2018

Ruth Davidson has surprisingly strong backing to be the new Tory leader. I can see it being between her and Rees-Mogg with the main issue being leave or remain

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/09/leave-voting-conservative-party-members-are-starti/?utm_source=website_article&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=tory_members_july_2018

I’d have said the main issue is her not not being in Westminster.

The Tory party isn’t labour, there’s absolutely zero chance of JRG doing a corbyn and being on the ballot put to members.

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I’d have said the main issue is her not not being in Westminster.

Depends when May goes. Davidson could easily get to Westminster in a by-election before then

They would just get a safe seat MP to resign with a promise of a peerage and put her in that seat

She's pregnant and has also stated she won't go to Westminster before next Scottish elections , she's not going anywhere in time to stand as leader

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Good tweet from Robert Harris:

The day after a British woman is murdered on British soil by agents of a foreign power, Boris Johnson, the Churchillian upholder of British sovereignty, has apparently gone missing to ponder the only thing that interests him: his career

Liam Fox can't be far behind, surely? Can't see Gove leaving after his sucking up job on yesterday's morning politics shows.

Woody Johnson says trade deal with the US is ‘up in the air’ following Chequers compromise. ‘I would say that the bilateral agreement, whether we have one or not, is totally up in the air at this point’.

Carl Bildt

@carlbildt

Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself.

Carl Bildt

@carlbildt

Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself.

Hard to argue with that. I mean even those who ardent remainers must agree that this fudge is even worse than a hard brexit. How can it possibly be acceptable for a country to be forced to follow laws set by a third party with no influence on those laws?

Simple answer, its not.

Doesnt mean its not absolute ****e, but it is slightly slightly slightly more practical ****e.

Sod all of this lot though, no matter the outcome this fight is going to span a generation with varying degrees of ferocity, it wont simply end once we leave the EU, this country is sharply divided through the middle for the long term.

Someone should congratulate David Cameron, because that is his legacy.

Hard to argue with that. I mean even those who ardent remainers must agree that this fudge is even worse than a hard brexit. How can it possibly be acceptable for a country to be forced to follow laws set by a third party with no influence on those laws?

Spot on. The problem is that compromise is impossible. In most areas of policy you can make concessions and bring two sides together, but this is one area where the middle ground satisfies nobody. I’d rather stay in than vote for Mays turd , and I’m sure there’s Remainers who’d rather leave than vote for Mays turd.

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Simple answer, its not.

 

Doesnt mean its not absolute ****e, but it is slightly slightly slightly more practical ****e.

 

Sod all of this lot though, no matter the outcome this fight is going to span a generation with varying degrees of ferocity, it wont simply end once we leave the EU, this country is sharply divided through the middle for the long term.

 

Someone should congratulate David Cameron, because that is his legacy.

Good tweet from Robert Harris:

"The day after a British woman is murdered on British soil by agents of a foreign power, Boris Johnson, the Churchillian upholder of British sovereignty, has apparently gone missing to ponder the only thing that interests him: his career "

The last 3 years have only ever been about BoJo's aspiration to be leader of the Conservative party. Look at how strongly he was in favour of remaining in the EU, until he mde his opportunist and selfish volte face.

Can't agree with that I'm afraid. I'd rather live in a poorer country governed by ourselves than be dictated to by a third party with no input. Might as well live in a dictatorship if that's the attitude

Let's be clear:

1. The common rulebook for goods would touch only a small part of policy. The UK government, as it did in the EU, will determine the vast majority of issues that citizens care most about. Talk about dictatorship is sloppy hyperbole.

2. Under the Chequers compromise, the government reserves the sovereign right to veto or depart from any regulation it deems unacceptable. Whether the EU accepts this is another matter.

3. Even if there is no formal agreement, governments will always be under strong economic pressure to follow the preferences and regulations of more powerful players - whether it is big business or other governments. Is that any less of a dictatorship to use your words?

Simple answer, its not.

 

Doesnt mean its not absolute ****e, but it is slightly slightly slightly more practical ****e.

 

Sod all of this lot though, no matter the outcome this fight is going to span a generation with varying degrees of ferocity, it wont simply end once we leave the EU, this country is sharply divided through the middle for the long term.

 

Someone should congratulate David Cameron, because that is his legacy.

Agree, Cameron is the biggest **** up of the lot. Call for a refurendum on Brexit, then campaign against it saying it will cause Armageddon. Then jump ship like a rat because he can’t face dealing with the consequences.

The last 3 years have only ever been about BoJo's aspiration to be leader of the Conservative party. Look at how strongly he was in favour of remaining in the EU, until he mde his opportunist and selfish volte face.

you make out that other top level politicians are any different

you make out that other top level politicians are any different

Bojo is a class apart pal.

Look at how strongly he was in favour of remaining in the EU, until he mde his opportunist and selfish volte face.

Not that strongly.

He was torn between grudging acceptance/better-out-than-in equivocation and his ultimate Brexit position. He's never been Nick Clegg.

Bojo is a class apart pal.

nothing like a jezz music fest to cement your place in a system you have rigged. Nothing like that at all

nothing like a jezz music fest to cement your place in a system you have rigged. Nothing like that at all

Correct. Nothing like it at all pal.

you make out that other top level politicians are any different

Not many are so egotistical that they would willingly screw over an entire nation. Cameron made a severe misjudgement when trying to preserve his own position, and was ultimately shafted by BoJo's own self-interest.

Jeremy Hunt foreign secretary.

I like it when they pronounce it "****".

Some of those are deliberate!

Some of those are deliberate!

That ginger bird definitely meant it. Jury's out on Harriet Harman.

Maybe, but that wasn’t the point he made.

 

Don’t forget it was a remainer PM and a remainer parliament that didn’t do this.

 

 

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And all this mess just because Miliband ate a bacon sarnie with an odd face.

And all this mess just because Miliband ate a bacon sarnie with an odd face.

Or, all this because the no-hoper miliband brother shafted his great-white-hope sibling for the leadership.

Or, all this because the no-hoper miliband brother shafted his great-white-hope sibling for the leadership.

He would've done a much better job than Cameron. The media savaged him from day one because he wasn't the establishment's choice.

Or, all this because the no-hoper miliband brother shafted his great-white-hope sibling for the leadership.

Yep. The whole of the past 8 years would have been different

Yep. The whole of the past 8 years would have been different

My theory holds slightly more water than jonny's bacon sandwich one. Imho, Ed was never going to be electable while David easily could have been. And I somehow can't envisage David Miliband countenancing an in/out referendum on the EU had he rocked up in downing street.

All pointless speculation now, obviously.

David Cameron offered the referendum to shore up the right of his party. He didn't believe he would win an overall majority and therefore didn't expect to have to go through with it. The great miscalculation was the Conservatives saw UKIP taking their votes, not realising they were taking an equal if not greater share of Labour votes. A complex issue boiled down to a binary answer. Certainly some knew what they were voting for - many, many didn't. Apathy among those under 30, coupled with a disenchantment with main stream politics means we are now left with an almighty mess. Unsurprisingly the EU aren't keen to make it easy.

Finally I really hope (although don't expect) that we can stop using the monikers 'Remoaners' or 'Jihadists' etc; it immediately closes down the debate if you start with name calling. As others have said, democracy is an ongoing process - not just a 'one-off' event.

David Cameron offered the referendum to shore up the right of his party. He didn't believe he would win an overall majority and therefore didn't expect to have to go through with it. The great miscalculation was the Conservatives saw UKIP taking their votes, not realising they were taking an equal if not greater share of Labour votes. A complex issue boiled down to a binary answer. Certainly some knew what they were voting for - many, many didn't. Apathy among those under 30, coupled with a disenchantment with main stream politics means we are now left with an almighty mess. Unsurprisingly the EU aren't keen to make it easy.

 

Finally I really hope (although don't expect) that we can stop using the monikers 'Remoaners' or 'Jihadists' etc; it immediately closes down the debate if you start with name calling. As others have said, democracy is an ongoing process - not just a 'one-off' event.

Without doubt one of the best posts on this thread.

Finally I really hope (although don't expect) that we can stop using the monikers 'Remoaners' or 'Jihadists' etc; it immediately closes down the debate if you start with name calling. As others have said, democracy is an ongoing process - not just a 'one-off' event.

I really hope we don't. I'm rather fond of being a remoaner - even fonder of being a remoaning traitor. If someone could squeeze in a connection to Soros, Bilderberg or Rothschild, all the better.

And for the umpteenth time, the 'jihadist' label is not an insult but a precise and objective description of a signed-up member of an economic death cult. The venerable Washington Post, which uses the analogous 'Brexit Taliban', describes the essential cult features, and they're all present and incorrect among the jihadists on here; and among their exalted leaders, those characteristics are intellectual dishonesty, incompetence, the complete absence of an actual plan, and the repeated impulse to run away when things get difficult (Farage, Banks, Gove, BoJo - twice! - Leadsom, Davis...and Rees Mogg, the ultimate cowardly charlatan, who won't touch leadership with a bargepole).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/07/09/the-intellectual-dishonesty-of-the-brexit-taliban-is-now-in-full-view/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92b977cc248d

I do actually feel sorry for the jihadists on here. Since the beginning of this thread I've been pointing out that pinning your hopes on the Tory party to deliver Brexit is the definition of foolishness. It was never going to happen without the party, and therefore the government, falling apart.

And the idea that the Tories could just walk away from any deal would wreck not just the political system but the economy too, and May is finally moving somewhere close towards recognising that. The severe warnings from business in the last few months - and Boris's jihadist wail of 'f**k business' - has brought reality sharply into focus.

Brexit is dead. Only the jihadists live on to rage at anyone but themselves for its failure.

I really hope we don't. I'm rather fond of being a remoaner - even fonder of being a remoaning traitor. If someone could squeeze in a connection to Soros, Bilderberg or Rothschild, all the better.

 

And for the umpteenth time, the 'jihadist' label is not an insult but a precise and objective description of a signed-up member of an economic death cult. The venerable Washington Post, which uses the analogous 'Brexit Taliban', describes the essential cult features, and they're all present and incorrect among the jihadists on here; and among their exalted leaders, those characteristics are intellectual dishonesty, incompetence, the complete absence of an actual plan, and the repeated impulse to run away when things get difficult (Farage, Banks, Gove, BoJo - twice! - Leadsom, Davis...and Rees Mogg, the ultimate cowardly charlatan, who won't touch leadership with a bargepole).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/07/09/the-intellectual-dishonesty-of-the-brexit-taliban-is-now-in-full-view/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92b977cc248d

 

I do actually feel sorry for the jihadists on here. Since the beginning of this thread I've been pointing out that pinning your hopes on the Tory party to deliver Brexit is the definition of foolishness. It was never going to happen without the party, and therefore the government, falling apart.

 

And the idea that the Tories could just walk away from any deal would wreck not just the political system but the economy too, and May is finally moving somewhere close towards recognising that. The severe warnings from business in the last few months - and Boris's jihadist wail of 'f**k business' - has brought reality sharply into focus.

 

Brexit is dead. Only the jihadists live on to rage at anyone but themselves for its failure.

Brexit was never really alive.

Whoever was in power would not have let a Hard Brexit happen - it would destroy the incumbant party and would be economic suicide.

We'll end up with a very wish-washy soft Brexit, which will essentially be a £100m fine a week from the EU for allowing the idiotic British public to vote on something so complex.

David Cameron offered the referendum to shore up the right of his party. He didn't believe he would win an overall majority and therefore didn't expect to have to go through with it. The great miscalculation was the Conservatives saw UKIP taking their votes, not realising they were taking an equal if not greater share of Labour votes. A complex issue boiled down to a binary answer. Certainly some knew what they were voting for - many, many didn't. Apathy among those under 30, coupled with a disenchantment with main stream politics means we are now left with an almighty mess. Unsurprisingly the EU aren't keen to make it easy.

 

Finally I really hope (although don't expect) that we can stop using the monikers 'Remoaners' or 'Jihadists' etc; it immediately closes down the debate if you start with name calling. As others have said, democracy is an ongoing process - not just a 'one-off' event.

I'd go with that. The truth I think is the majority of the British public (I include myself in that) didn't really understand the complexities of the issues around Brexit. I firmly believe the majority where voting on an issue they didn't really understand.

It didn't help that the whole referendum debate was fought like a general election campaign full of half truths, scare mongering and populist slogans.

I think for an issue like this an independent body with no agenda should have just laid down a rhetoric free, unbiased version of the facts and possible outcomes to try and help people make an informed choice.

Personally from speaking to friends, family and work colleges I know people who would have or would now vote differently had they had a better understanding of what they where voting for.

Thought Ben Goldacre’s leftfield thought experiment which could accommodate even a hard Brexit was interesting, notwithstanding it’s flaws.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1015330216644874240

...the EU for allowing the idiotic British public to vote on something so complex.

 

for allowing the idiotic British public to vote on something so complex.

Alright Hitler, calm down. We do live in a democracy, it's not that complex to Leave the EU, you just leave. Trouble is all these politicians are more worried about there personal gain from the situation than what the majority of the UK voted for. No inbetween, either Leave or Stay. Simples.

Alright Hitler, calm down. We do live in a democracy, it's not that complex to Leave the EU, you just leave. Trouble is all these politicians are more worried about there personal gain from the situation than what the majority of the UK voted for. No inbetween, either Leave or Stay. Simples.

Head’s gone pal.

Alright Hitler, calm down. We do live in a democracy, it's not that complex to Leave the EU, you just leave. Trouble is all these politicians are more worried about there personal gain from the situation than what the majority of the UK voted for. No inbetween, either Leave or Stay. Simples.

Hitler?

That escalated quickly.

Head’s gone pal.

Hitler?

 

That escalated quickly.

Well its baffling to say that people shouldn't be able to vote on something so "complex", something Hitler would've done.

My head has gone, found it very offensive.

Thought Ben Goldacre’s leftfield thought experiment which could accommodate even a hard Brexit was interesting, notwithstanding it’s flaws.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1015330216644874240

A Legxit. I like it.

Well its baffling to say that people shouldn't be able to vote on something so "complex", something Hitler would've done.

 

My head has gone, found it very offensive.

Why? You shouldn't be able to. I don't want any Tom, **** and Barry making decisions on something they clearly have no idea about. The very thought that this was something that should be handed down to the general public is ridiculous.

Even a 'component' Brexit as Shurlock linked above would be better, although to try and articulate the potential knock on effects to the public would be difficult.

Why? You shouldn't be able to. I don't want any Tom, **** and Barry making decisions on something they clearly have no idea about. The very thought that this was something that should be handed down to the general public is ridiculous.

 

Even a 'component' Brexit as Shurlock linked above would be better, although to try and articulate the potential knock on effects to the public would be difficult.

Well long live democracy, and thats the very reason the EU is a horrid organisation. How dare the people that pay the taxes have a say in how the country is run.

Well long live democracy, and thats the very reason the EU is a horrid organisation. How dare the people that pay the taxes have a say in how the country is run.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a say - I'm saying that they shouldn't have been given a Y/N vote on something that isn't simply a Y/N answer. If it was broken down then at least we'd know what people voted for, so that we could try to come to a better way of getting rid of those pesky foreigners - as we all know that was the reason most people voted that way.

I also doubt many Brexiteers pay that much tax anyway (jokes, obvs).

Well long live democracy, and thats the very reason the EU is a horrid organisation. How dare the people that pay the taxes have a say in how the country is run.

So then you are for a people's vote on the brexit deal, right? Rather than leaving it up to MPs.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a say - I'm saying that they shouldn't have been given a Y/N vote on something that isn't simply a Y/N answer. If it was broken down then at least we'd know what people voted for, so that we could try to come to a better way of getting rid of those pesky foreigners - as we all know that was the reason most people voted that way.

 

I also doubt many Brexiteers pay that much tax anyway (jokes, obvs).

To me it is as simple as Y/N. Do you want to be in the EU, Yes or No. Do the benefits outway the negatives, then No don't leave and visa versa.

The after effects are not known and all guess work, no one can read the future (other than that goat on Radio 1).

Aren't most remainers Millionaires/Celebs, so they defo pay as little tax as possible. (jokes, obvs)

The facts are that the Great British public voted to Leave the European Union, and that's what should be happening. Sadly it won't.