Brexit - Post Match Reaction

Actually Guided, I thought that the majority of people in Shirley (cannot comment) for Eastern Southampton were Russians? That is people who live outside of The EU.

We have more Polish inhabitants than any other city outside London. Most recent figures show that there are now 25,000 Poles living in the city. With a population of around 240,000, that means more than one in ten is Polish.

Thank you, where I live is about 40 years behind the rest of Portugal. It’s actually starting to be spoilt by the arrival of young Germans, Dutch, Italian and French who are fed of of living in their own countries overrun with migrants. They have come to try their hand at surf hostels and are therefore changing the area and not for the best.

I was offered a freebie place on this event this year in return for a couple of articles but had to decline as it clashed with my classes GCSE exams. I was gutted as it's a great way to see a country. http://www.rideacrossportugal.com/en/home

Shirley is a sh !thole, as is Millbrook, Thornhill, Woolston and Sholing. As Britain, unlike Portugal, is a net contributor to the EU, the citizens of Shirley, Millbrook, Thornhill, Woolston and Sholing haven't seen the benefits of the EU, in terms of money and investment, unlike much of southern Europe. It is mainly for this reason that they and people like them across the country, voted to exit the EU, much to the surprise of the out of touch London political elite. They also expected that, having provided an answer to the question asked at the referendum, the political elite, would be able to work out a mechanism to get them the f*** out of the EU, with the minimum of damage. Apparently they were wrong. Now the political elite in London and the EU are treating them like idiots. They are making a BIG mistake.

Mixing apples and pears dinlow. So what if the UK is a net contributor? That's irrelevant at a regional level where poorer regions -historically Cornwall and West Wales- may get more out of the EU than they put in thanks to the structural funds they've received. Redistribution happens both across EU member statesand within member states.

#londonlargesse

Can’t argue with any of that

I had heard that Woolston was being given a facelift? Never having lived over that area I don’t know it.

If I change my vote to Leave does that mean I can help prevent Portugal Saint from ever coming back to the UK or posting on this UK-based website?

If I change my vote to Leave does that mean I can help prevent Portugal Saint from ever coming back from the UK or posting on this UK-based website?

What I find hilarious is the fact that the media have been crying about the possibility of JLR reducing their investment in the UK, post Brexit, when 4 years before the referendum, the EU lent Ford £150m to move the transit factory from Eastleigh to Turkey, with the loss of 4,000 jobs.

Turkey? Isn't that outside the EU?

No wonder we voted to get out...

Southampton, in my opinion has never employed decent architects. After it was heavily bombed over the years, architects have not been able to make a decent mark on the area as they have for example and dare I say in Portsmouth around the shopping area by the water (name escapes me). Southampton had their chances when they put up a similar area around the marina but it was so small it was something of nothing. The top area where Tyrell’s used to be is just a vast expanse of nothing. Outside of West Quay where it was bustling in Above Bar also looks grubby and littered with rubbish and down market shops. It’s a shame as Southampton had many opportunities to get things right but councillors, architects etc have failed miserably.

What I find hilarious is the fact that the media have been crying about the possibility of JLR reducing their investment in the UK, post Brexit, when 4 years before the referendum, the EU lent Ford £150m to move the transit factory from Eastleigh to Turkey, with the loss of 4,000 jobs.

 

Turkey? Isn't that outside the EU?

 

No wonder we voted to get out...

#fakenews

Can’t argue with any of that

Add lordswood, lordshill, Shirley warren, most of portswood, townhill, Merryoak, swaythling.

Thank you for your opinion on Portugal being a minor EU country. Exactly the reason a lot of Portuguese would like to leave. They survived before and would survive again. Also, you obviously do not realise that Portugal are the UKs oldest ally. With the marriage of Catherine de Braganza and Charles 1 bringing great wealth to the UK through her dowry. So yes, minor now but still in existence even though there are pompous Brits who know better and sneer as you do INIT, how very multi culty.

 

I had no idea Hammonds still existed, when I was sat on the bus it was all shuttered up, even the signage could not be seen.

Where did I say Portugal was minor? I said nothing of the sort. I have made no comment what so ever on Portugal.

Where did I say Portugal was minor? I said nothing of the sort. I have made no comment what so ever on Portugal.

Thank you for your opinion on Portugal being a minor EU country. Exactly the reason a lot of Portuguese would like to leave. They survived before and would survive again. Also, you obviously do not realise that Portugal are the UKs oldest ally. With the marriage of Catherine de Braganza and Charles 1 bringing great wealth to the UK through her dowry. So yes, minor now but still in existence even though there are pompous Brits who know better and sneer as you do INIT, how very multi culty.

 

I had no idea Hammonds still existed, when I was sat on the bus it was all shuttered up, even the signage could not be seen.

Oooh history I love a bit of history couple of points though it was Charles the second that married Catherine his father Charles the first was married to a French princess.

Also the dowry was mostly Tangier and a big drain on English resources for no real gain (I'm sure someone on this thread can jump on that analogy) before the English where driven out 20 years latter by angry Berbers who wanted their city back ( I'm sure someone can make an analogy)

In return Portugal got English military aid on land and at sea to help fight the Spanish so probably did better out of the deal than the English ( oops there's another a cheap analogy for the taking).

I stand corrected...buctootim made the comment.

What I find hilarious is the fact that the media have been crying about the possibility of JLR reducing their investment in the UK, post Brexit, when 4 years before the referendum, the EU lent Ford £150m to move the transit factory from Eastleigh to Turkey, with the loss of 4,000 jobs.

 

Turkey? Isn't that outside the EU?

 

No wonder we voted to get out...

Something about one thing. Something about something completely different.

Q. E. Jihadi D.!!

Southampton, in my opinion has never employed decent architects. After it was heavily bombed over the years, architects have not been able to make a decent mark on the area as they have for example and dare I say in Portsmouth around the shopping area by the water (name escapes me). Southampton had their chances when they put up a similar area around the marina but it was so small it was something of nothing. The top area where Tyrell’s used to be is just a vast expanse of nothing. Outside of West Quay where it was bustling in Above Bar also looks grubby and littered with rubbish and down market shops. It’s a shame as Southampton had many opportunities to get things right but councillors, architects etc have failed miserably.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/16229746.Westquay_wins_two_international_architecture_awards/

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/16229746.Westquay_wins_two_international_architecture_awards/

This development and that surrounding it, together with the Harbour Hotel at Ocean Village, have transformed Southampton, IMHO and are reasons to visit the city. A walk from West Quay, along the old walls to the Jetty restaurant, via the pubs along the way, is a great way to spend a day and offers as much as anything in London.

What I find hilarious is the fact that the media have been crying about the possibility of JLR reducing their investment in the UK, post Brexit, when 4 years before the referendum, the EU lent Ford £150m to move the transit factory from Eastleigh to Turkey, with the loss of 4,000 jobs.

 

Turkey? Isn't that outside the EU?

 

No wonder we voted to get out...

Supposing this is true as presented for a second (and reality is way more complex of course)

If we leave the EU, how would it prevent this from happening in the future? What additional incentive does the EU have (as a result of Brexit) to not loan to third party countries? How will UK's influence on these kinds of decisions change?

Supposing this is true as presented for a second (and reality is way more complex of course)

 

If we leave the EU, how would it prevent this from happening in the future? What additional incentive does the EU have (as a result of Brexit) to not loan to third party countries? How will UK's influence on these kinds of decisions change?

For a slightly different perspective. And yes the the world is more complex.

https://mobile.twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/895966891684048897?lang=en

Supposing this is true as presented for a second (and reality is way more complex of course)

 

If we leave the EU, how would it prevent this from happening in the future? What additional incentive does the EU have (as a result of Brexit) to not loan to third party countries? How will UK's influence on these kinds of decisions change?

My point is that the incentive for global car manufacturers to either invest in the UK, the EU or countries outside the EU has very little to do with Brexit and everything to do with the demands of their shareholders. The UK government has little influence over where businesses invest apart from tax and other financial incentives. I doubt tariffs are a significant factor, otherwise Ford would not have invested in Turkey.

So...

• Turkey is being considered for EU membership
  
• Ford granted a cheap loan to expand Turkish plant from the EIB
  
• Eastleigh Transit Plant closed
  
• Production moved to Turkey, which benefits from lower overheads (i.e. cheap capital costs via low interest loans)
  

Not that complex, was it, unless you want to muddy the waters to hide the truth...?

Further proof for the gullible fools on this thread, about exactly how the EIB is used to bribe or punish foreign governments, here.

In addition to this massive total, the country could lose out on an additional £3billion (€3.5billion) in European Investment Bank loans which have been earmarked for Turkey but are yet to be formally assigned.

Accession funding, also known as bribes...

Think of the cheap loans the UK could get if we had a hard Brexit and then talked about rejoining the EU. We wouldn't even have to worry too much about our human rights record.

My point is that the incentive for global car manufacturers to either invest in the UK, the EU or countries outside the EU has very little to do with Brexit and everything to do with the demands of their shareholders. The UK government has little influence over where businesses invest apart from tax and other financial incentives. I doubt tariffs are a significant factor, otherwise Ford would not have invested in Turkey.

You do realise per EU for dummies that Turkey is part of the customs union which grants its automotive sector tariff-free access to the EU?

Your basic ignorance is staggering JJ

You do realise per EU for dummies that Turkey is part of the customs union which grants its automotive sector tariff-free access to the EU?

 

Your basic ignorance is staggering JJ

F**k facts.

You do realise per EU for dummies that Turkey is part of the customs union which grants its automotive sector tariff-free access to the EU?

Your dedication to trolling me has completely overwhelmed any capability for you to engage in rational debate. I knew Turkey was in the customs union. I'll walk you through the argument. Please try and read my post again, this time without posting an insult at the end of each sentence.

My point is that the incentive for global car manufacturers to either invest in the UK, the EU or countries outside the EU has very little to do with Brexit and everything to do with the demands of their shareholders

I doubt tariffs are a significant factor, otherwise Ford would not have invested in Turkey.

As there were no tariffs in either the UK or Turkey, at the time Ford decided to invest in Turkey, they weren't a factor for Ford pulling out of Eastleigh, nor are a significant factor for the other global car manufacturers, even in the case of Turkey, if they are imposed, the next time they violate human rights. What are significant factors are cheap money, grants, tax breaks, etc. when the investment is made. You obviously think the level of tariffs is a significant factor. Then rather than insulting me, pal, why don't you explain your reasoning?

If you promise to behave, I'll keep you off ignore. Any repeat of your past behaviour will mean you're straight back to the naughty corner. You have been warned. Verbal stays there because he's a total nutter and is beyond help. You obviously have self respect issues you are trying to overcome by demonstrating a deluded sense of intellectual superiority on a forum, by denigrating others. I may be able to help you, if you are willing to learn.

One final question for you to ponder. What was the incentive for the EIB to provide a US van manufacturer cheap money, to expand a plant in Turkey? I'm sure the Ford workers who lost their jobs in Southampton would love to understand...

For those ex-Ford workers in any doubt, here's what the EIB is:

The European Investment Bank (EIB) is the European Union's nonprofit long-term lending institution established in 1958 under the Treaty of Rome. As a "policy-driven bank" whose shareholders are the member states of the EU, the EIB uses its financing operations to bring about European integration and social cohesion.

...and its mission is:

...to make a difference to the future of Europe and its partners by supporting sound investments which further EU policy goals.

Turkey has been making out like a bandit outside cheap of EIB loans, as well. €3 billion to keep migrants out of Schengen, for a start. The Russian Federation did quite well out to the bank in 2013:

The European Investment Bank (EIB) is providing two loans to Russian subsidiary banks of leading EU banking groups to support projects promoted by small and medium-sized enterprises and mid-cap companies in the Russian Federation, namely EUR 100 million with UniCredit Bank and EUR 40 million with Raiffeisen Bank

That all stopped the following year when Russia invaded Crimea Still, it hasn't stopping that well-known opportunistic ex-communist Merkel jumping into bed with Putin over Nord Stream 2.

Trump has her number. Pity May hasn't....

For those ex-Ford workers in any doubt, here's what the EIB is:

 

 

...and its mission is:

 

Turkey has been making out like a bandit outside cheap of EIB loans, as well. €3 billion to keep migrants out of Schengen, for a start. The Russian Federation did quite well out to the bank in 2013:

 

That all stopped the following year when Russia invaded Crimea Still, it hasn't stopping that well-known opportunistic ex-communist Merkel jumping into bed with Putin over Nord Stream 2.

 

Trump has her number. Pity May hasn't....

The EIB loan made no real difference to the Southampton plant. The writing had been on the wall for it since Ford opened the Turkish plant to make transits in 2002. It was business decision by Ford which doomed it, not the EIB - although I agree the loan shouldnt have been made.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

The EIB loan made no real difference to the Southampton plant. The writing had been on the wall for it since Ford opened the Turkish plant to make transits in 2002. It was business decision by Ford which doomed it, not the EIB - although I agree the loan shouldnt have been made.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

Interesting account of events that seems plausible.

https://mobile.twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/895966891684048897?lang=en

Interesting account of events that seems plausible.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/895966891684048897?lang=en

Yep sounds well based and credible. I've no reason to doubt it and seen no evidence to contradict it.

Interesting account of events that seems plausible.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/895966891684048897?lang=en

Well spotted. Steve Analyst is on my radar but I hadn't seen that. He's an extraordinarily well-informed American business and trade analyst - one of those damned experts.

And it goes to show how the truth is usually the thing that those gullible enough to believe conspiracy theories deny: complex.

Yep sounds well based and credible. I've no reason to doubt it and seen no evidence to contradict it.

Or, you take the time to read the EU Commissions answer to Daniel Hannan on this specific topic. I'll highlight the parts that may help.

Question from Daniel Hannan (ECR)

 

Subject: EIB loan to Ford in Turkey

 

Ford has announced its intention to close its last UK assembly plant, in Swaythling, Southampton, with the loss of 1 400 jobs. Production of Ford’s Transit Van will switch from Swaythling to Turkey, having been based in Southampton — the company’s last UK vehicle assembly plant — for 40 years. It has emerged that the European Investment Bank (EIB) has loaned Ford GBP 80 million to invest in its Turkish plant, as part of its moves to prepare the country’s economy for possible European Union membership. Has the Commission considered that certain EIB loans may have a negative impact on firms registered within the EU, especially where the EIB’s very favourable loans could offer an unfair advantage to non-EU firms?

Answer given by Mr Rehn on behalf of the Commission:

 

The main objective of the EIB is to support growth and jobs in the EU through long-term, sustainable and economically sound investment in infrastructure, private sector companies and small businesses, including in the automotive sector where EIB has financed several projects over the last number of years notably to promote cleaner transport solutions. At the same time, an objective of EIB activity outside the Union, in particular in Pre-Accession countries, is the promotion of local private sector development. This applies to both EIB own risk activities, under which the EIB loan to Ford in Turkey was carried out, and EIB activities under the external mandate, as provided for in Decision No 1080/2011/EU of the Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 granting an EU guarantee to the EIB against losses under loans and loan guarantees for projects outside the Union.

What part of...objective..., EIB Loan to..., Ford..., Pre-accession Country..., Turkey..., you guys don't understand is beyond me. Still, let's all rely on Twitter for the answer, shall we, although anything Ford say regarding cheap EIB loans, should be rejected, out of hand. They're hardly likely to say we moved to Turkey and closed Swaythling because the EU bribed us to.

Luckily, after we have left the EU, all UK companies have to do, is for the UK government to ask to be let back into the EU and wait for cheap loans from the EIB. House a few thousand migrants on the financially challenged IoW, with rubber boats bound for France at the ready and the EU will probably give us a few billion to keep them there. Enough money to keep the caulkheads happy and they will get their cars cleaned for cheap, into the bargain.

Or, you take the time to read the EU Commissions answer to Daniel Hannan on this specific topic. I'll highlight the parts that may help.

 

 

 

 

 

What part of...objective..., EIB Loan to..., Ford..., Pre-accession Country..., Turkey..., you guys don't understand is beyond me. Still, let's all rely on Twitter for the answer, shall we, although anything Ford say regarding cheap EIB loans, should be rejected, out of hand. They're hardly likely to say we moved to Turkey and closed Swaythling because the EU bribed us to.

 

Luckily, after we have left the EU, all UK companies have to do, is for the UK government to ask to be let back into the EU and wait for cheap loans from the EIB. House a few thousand migrants on the financially challenged IoW, with rubber boats bound for France at the ready and the EU will probably give us a few billion to keep them there. Enough money to keep the caulkheads happy and they will get their cars cleaned for cheap, into the bargain.

It was a loan for CO2 emissions. Here is the Commission’s original response to Hannan’s question pal dealing specifically with Ford Otosan.

Joint answer given by Mr Rehn on behalf of the Commission

Written questions :E-010134/12 , P-010070/12 , P-010100/12

 

The EIB is strongly committed to supporting growth and jobs in the EU through long-term, sustainable and economically sound investment in infrastructure, private sector companies and small businesses. It also operates outside the EU in line with the EU’s external policies, in support of long-term investment in order to foster local economic development.

 

In particular, the investment in the Ford Otosan production line will not result in a capacity increase but aims at upgrading technology and accelerating the promoter's compliance with forthcoming EU legislation on CO2 emissions. The EIB loan is carried out at the own risk of the Bank and does not benefit from an EU budget guarantee.

 

Ford confirmed that the EIB’s loan supporting investment in Turkey was by no means linked to the decision taken by the company to close either the Genk or the Southampton plants which was taken after signature of the EIB loan to Ford Otosan.

 

The EIB undertakes a rigorous technical, economic, environmental and social assessment of all projects under appraisal for possible finance and monitors how its loans are used to ensure that they comply with the scope outlined in the original application. The detailed assessment for the EIB loan to Ford in Turkey took place in 2011, leading to the EIB Board’s approval in March 2012 and signature of the loan agreement with Ford in July 2012.

It was a loan for CO2 emissions.

I'm afraid you're back on ignore for being a total muppet, pal. CO2 emissions...

Yes it was a loan to help Ford Otosan upgrade reduce CO2 emissions and upgrade technology rather than expand capacity - are you claiming the EU Commission is lying pal? What in the statement do you dispute?

Ford Otosan:

€190 million loan agreement signed with EIB in 2012

8-year loan with 2-years grace period

€100 million in Q3 at 2.06%

€90 million in Q4 at 1.47%

€100 million loan agreement signed with EIB in December 2015

The loan was utilized in the first quarter of 2016

6-year loan at 0.87%

31 % of their vans are exported to the UK, 18% to Germany, 8% to France, 6% to Spain, 7% to Italy and 3% to Belgium.

€290 million to reduce CO2 emissions....

Jesus, was Osborne barking mad when he approved these loans? Slap a 25% tariff on vans from Turkey when we get out of the EU, on the basis of illegal state aid.

Happily, Ford Otosan was able to maintain their dividend payments, "during the heavy capex period" of 2012-2015, as follows:

[TABLE=width: 500]

[TR]

[TD]Year[/TD]

[TD]2012[/TD]

[TD]2013[/TD]

[TD]2014[/TD]

[TD]2015[/TD]

[TD]2016[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Dividend (US$ mn, gross)[/TD]

[TD]325[/TD]

[TD]166[/TD]

[TD]79[/TD]

[TD]146[/TD]

[TD]226[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

With Ford US owning 41%, by my reckoning, Ford US earned just over $386 million in dividends over this period, gross. Let's take away the 15% tax they would have paid on that figure, without any other deductions, which comes to around $58 million and they are left with a net figure of $328 million. With prime borrowing rates of 4.5% in the US at the time Ford Otosan took out their $100 million loan in 2015, their interest savings over borrowing the money in the US were $27 million (@ 4.5% x 6 years). (who would bother to pay the capital off early?) minus $5.22 million (@ 0.87% over 6 years) making $21.78 million.

Corporation tax in the UK is 20%, so Ford saved 5% over taking a dividends, rather than profits in the UK. Summing it all up, I reckon the EU Turkish deal to Ford US was worth about $19 million in tax savings and around $9 million in interest savings on the capital invested. So, EU tax payers wrote a cheque for around $28 million, payable to a US car manufacturer, to invest in a non-EU country, at the expense of Southampton jobs.

Of course, I could be wrong and the Ford may have signed the deal to reduce CO2 emissions, not for $28 million in tax free cash.

As I posted earlier:

The incentive for global car manufacturers to either invest in the UK, the EU or countries outside the EU has very little to do with Brexit and everything to do with the demands of their shareholders.

Yes it was a loan to help Ford Otosan upgrade reduce CO2 emissions and upgrade technology rather than expand capacity - are you claiming the EU Commission is lying pal? What in the statement do you dispute?

...

Juncker steamed up at NATO summit. What sort of person looks at such an important event as an opportunity to get lashed. Shameful.

http:// https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJC64B7evBs

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

They must have insisted on that Photoshopped pic as part of the exclusive.

As just posted inTrump thread

What a cnt.

- humiliates his host after she pulls out all stops

- suggests Boris, who has done more to undermine her than anyone else, should be PM

- patronises her by “telling” her how to do Brexit

- throws hand grenade under her new Brexit plans

Feel sorry for May. Just a bully and knows she is weak.

They must have insisted on that Photoshopped pic as part of the exclusive.

 

 

As just posted inTrump thread

 

What a cnt.

 

- humiliates his host after she pulls out all stops

- suggests Boris, who has done more to undermine her than anyone else, should be PM

- patronises her by “telling” her how to do Brexit

- throws hand grenade under her new Brexit plans

 

Feel sorry for May. Just a bully and knows she is weak.

If she can’t stand the heat.

At least he was sober.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If she can’t stand the heat.

 

At least he was sober.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Translation for the non-crapulent: 'She's just a chick.' Oddly being told by our representative for the 1950s to get out of the kitchen.

Seems the jihadists don't have a problem when its Trump or the Russians meddling in the UK's internal politics.

Juncker steamed up at NATO summit. What sort of person looks at such an important event as an opportunity to get lashed. Shameful.

 

 

http:// https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJC64B7evBs

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am sure he will get punished at the ballot box for that. I see the BBC are all over this story.

I am sure he will get punished at the ballot box for that. I see the BBC are all over this story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44812352

Good lad. Glad your trust in the BBC's impartiality runs so high.

Juncker steamed up at NATO summit. What sort of person looks at such an important event as an opportunity to get lashed. Shameful.

 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJC64B7evBs

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44812352

 

Good lad. Glad your trust in the BBC's impartiality runs so high.

Apologies I did not see it hidden away in those pages.

Seems the jihadists don't have a problem when its Trump or the Russians meddling in the UK's internal politics.

But isn't Donald merely acting in our best interests ?

Apologies I did not see it hidden away in those pages.

Literally the first result when you google Jean Claude Juncker. But hey it's scandalous that Trump's threat to NATO, a charged visit to the UK, the publication of a critical white paper are all considered more newsworthy pal.

Literally the first result when you google Jean Claude Juncker. But hey it's scandalous that Trump's threat to NATO, a charged visit to the UK, the publication of a critical white paper are all considered more newsworthy pal.