The New Formation Thread : The Puel 4-4-2 Diamond

One of the better aspects of Koeman was his ability to coach the players into different successful systems, albeit sometimes after a bit of a delay. Any single-formation system will need to be easily adaptable for the match-by-match issues presenting, and if we stick with just one formation rigidly I give it a month before opposing coaches are taking it apart due to the predictability just like Howe did at Dean Court last season.

We need a couple of systems with a few tweaks, but it's understandable that the manager wants to get the main one right first. It's on him if they're unprepared (just like it was on Koeman that we got rolled over by Everton early on last season despite that being down to a depleted squad in key positions at the time).

Where's Puel said they're not ready/not adapting, etc?

Can't stand the diamond formation personally. Always ends up too narrow, and not that difficult to negate.

Even a bog standard 4-4-2 is better.

Having said that, I haven't seen any of the friendlies, or even highlights. Just got back from holiday, so will just see what happens.

Puel is saying that the team won't be ready for the new season. He wants the fans to be patient while the players bed into the new system that they obviously are struggling with. Finish sixth, qualify for Europe, bring in a new manager that immediately introduces a new system that the players have to fit into not a system that fits the players. that sounds daft to me. Use the tried and tested system that all the players have been suited to and as appropriate introduce the diamond as an alternative until the players are comfortable and if it is then more successful use it.

 

He won't get patience, the fans are looking for continuation. If we struggle with results in our first two home games he will be in trouble.

Has there been any threads/discussion on the probable starting 11 in the new 4-4-2 diamond?

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Has there been any threads/discussion on the probable starting 11 in the new 4-4-2 diamond?

I'd be guessing

------------Forster

Cedric Fonte Van Dijk Bertrand/Martina/McQueen/Pied

---------------Romeu

Ward-Prowse-----------Clasie

---------------Davis----------

----------Long-----Redmond

Bones of contention for me are

> Fonte/Cedric returning without pre-season (or we're a LOT weaker at CB)

> Bertrand seems to be injured and McQueen might be ok or might not, the coach may not know Martina in theory can play left back (but apparently so can Pied)

> Romeu or Hojbjerg (or maybe Clasie?) for DM

> God only knows which other midfield combination, I've put Clasie in, in case we need to protect the left back - but think Tadic should start, and I'm not sure Davis gets the nod either but I'd pick him. Unless we play one of Tadic/Redmond/Hojbjerg/Davis in the hole or wide, which opens up Austin to start. But Ward-Prowse is probably our strongest academy product, and he's been decent pre-season...

> Two from Long, Redmond or Austin up top (though split wide).

I'd be guessing

 

------------Forster

Cedric Fonte Van Dijk Bertrand/Martina/McQueen/Pied

---------------Romeu

Ward-Prowse-----------Clasie

---------------Davis----------

----------Long-----Redmond

 

Bones of contention for me are

 

> Fonte/Cedric returning without pre-season (or we're a LOT weaker at CB)

> Bertrand seems to be injured and McQueen might be ok or might not, the coach may not know Martina in theory can play left back (but apparently so can Pied)

> Romeu or Hojbjerg (or maybe Clasie?) for DM

> God only knows which other midfield combination, I've put Clasie in, in case we need to protect the left back - but think Tadic should start, and I'm not sure Davis gets the nod either but I'd pick him. Unless we play one of Tadic/Redmond/Hojbjerg/Davis in the hole or wide, which opens up Austin to start. But Ward-Prowse is probably our strongest academy product, and he's been decent pre-season...

> Two from Long, Redmond or Austin up top (though split wide).

Agree with ur back 4 ...in a bit of a mess due to the Euros.

1 out of Romeu/Classie

2 out of ward prowse/hojbjerg/tadic

davis at the top of the diamond

Long plus 1 out of redmond/austin/jrod

I still think we should have gone for Idrissa :-(

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I'd be guessing

 

------------Forster

Cedric Fonte Van Dijk Bertrand/Martina/McQueen/Pied

---------------Romeu

Ward-Prowse-----------Clasie

---------------Davis----------

----------Long-----Redmond

 

Bones of contention for me are

 

> Fonte/Cedric returning without pre-season (or we're a LOT weaker at CB)

> Bertrand seems to be injured and McQueen might be ok or might not, the coach may not know Martina in theory can play left back (but apparently so can Pied)

> Romeu or Hojbjerg (or maybe Clasie?) for DM

> God only knows which other midfield combination, I've put Clasie in, in case we need to protect the left back - but think Tadic should start, and I'm not sure Davis gets the nod either but I'd pick him. Unless we play one of Tadic/Redmond/Hojbjerg/Davis in the hole or wide, which opens up Austin to start. But Ward-Prowse is probably our strongest academy product, and he's been decent pre-season...

> Two from Long, Redmond or Austin up top (though split wide).

I have no concerns over Fonte and Cedric stepping straight into the team, they played in the Euros for most of the summer.

There's too much focus on the front two -for instance, whether Austin can play in such a system but that misses the real problem IMO.

Crucial to a diamond are the two outside central midfielders - the so-called 'shuttlers' in the system. Presumably that's Clasie and JWP who'll play in front of Romeu at the base of the diamond.

The amount of running required for the position is substantial -not only to fan wide from inside and provide width but also to protect the fullbacks. In effect, they have to be pure athletes. That's what allows the front men to occupy more central positions where they can be most dangerous.

And yet I can't think of any two players in our squad who least merit the description 'athletic' than JWP and Clasie, whatever other qualities they might bring. If they can't provide the energy and mobility, it puts pressure on the runs and positions that the front two can take up.

Tadic will play and Hojbjerg surely?.Otherwise it looks a bit of a boring team to me with hardly any creativity.

We've got plenty of options, Højbjerg and Romeu have already played in the same side, and I think they're my preferred selections but it's nice that we have plenty of alternatives in that area and I don't think there's really any tight or wrong at this stage.

There's too much focus on the front two -for instance, whether Austin can play in such a system but that misses the real problem IMO.

 

Crucial to a diamond are the two outside central midfielders - the so-called 'shuttlers' in the system. Presumably that's Clasie and JWP who'll play in front of Romeu at the base of the diamond.

 

The amount of running required for the position is substantial -not only to fan wide from inside and provide width but also to protect the fullbacks. In effect, they have to be pure athletes. That's what allows the front men to occupy more central positions where they can be most dangerous.

 

And yet I can't think of any two players in our squad who least merit the description 'athletic' than JWP and Clasie, whatever other qualities they might bring. If they can't provide the energy and mobility, it puts pressure on the runs and positions that the front two can take up.

I agree and it's why I think Romeu might be better for one of these positions rather than at the base (which would surely suit Clasie/Hojbjerg more) as he always seems to bring energy

Watching today, and on weds night, this formation is 442 diamond but slightly different to how it's usually played cos the two 'front men' as it were, are playing so far apart. They are virtually playing in the wide positions of last seasons 3, except they don't have a front man ahead of them. The furthest man forward today was often the head of the diamond man; JWP, Davis, whomever.

At times it's like 433 with a midfield triangle, but the middle front man is JWP, with the other forwards playing wider than the width of the 18 yard box! At times a full back had the ball wide, and Jrod and Austin were so far apart with NO-ONE in the middle, between the CBs.

An awful lot is going to depend on who else we get in, cos at the moment, I don't think we have the personnel for this formation. We're gonna need a very good no.10 I think.

I'm only basing this on what I've seen this week and a lot can change but this looks like how we're going to set up.

If it doesn't work, I can see players losing faith in it. Whether Puel has the nous to change it to the tried and trusted 4231 remains to be seen.

Watching today, and on weds night, this formation is 442 diamond but slightly different to how it's usually played cos the two 'front men' as it were, are playing so far apart. They are virtually playing in the wide positions of last seasons 3, except they don't have a front man ahead of them. The furthest man forward today was often the head of the diamond man; JWP, Davis, whomever.

 

At times it's like 433 with a midfield triangle, but the middle front man is JWP, with the other forwards playing wider than the width of the 18 yard box! At times a full back had the ball wide, and Jrod and Austin were so far apart with NO-ONE in the middle, between the CBs.

 

An awful lot is going to depend on who else we get in, cos at the moment, I don't think we have the personnel for this formation. We're gonna need a very good no.10 I think.

 

I'm only basing this on what I've seen this week and a lot can change but this looks like how we're going to set up.

 

If it doesn't work, I can see players losing faith in it. Whether Puel has the nous to change it to the tried and trusted 4231 remains to be seen.

Haven't seen anything more than highlights from pre-season, but if this is the case, we'll definitely need to invest in a new attacking midfielder. Neither Davis nor JWP are finishers.

Watching today, and on weds night, this formation is 442 diamond but slightly different to how it's usually played cos the two 'front men' as it were, are playing so far apart. They are virtually playing in the wide positions of last seasons 3, except they don't have a front man ahead of them. The furthest man forward today was often the head of the diamond man; JWP, Davis, whomever.

 

At times it's like 433 with a midfield triangle, but the middle front man is JWP, with the other forwards playing wider than the width of the 18 yard box! At times a full back had the ball wide, and Jrod and Austin were so far apart with NO-ONE in the middle, between the CBs.

 

An awful lot is going to depend on who else we get in, cos at the moment, I don't think we have the personnel for this formation. We're gonna need a very good no.10 I think.

I'm only basing this on what I've seen this week and a lot can change but this looks like how we're going to set up.

 

If it doesn't work, I can see players losing faith in it. Whether Puel has the nous to change it to the tried and trusted 4231 remains to be seen.

Agree with this. Of the matches I've seen so far, the team looks unbalanced in attack and Austin does not look suited to the left/right attacking position - he's just not mobile enough and struggles to get into threatening goal scoring positions. One chance in the AB match today which looked good, but one chance is not enough. Having said that, it was just friendly and perhaps they were not busting a gut to move around. JWP is so frustrating in the advanced position - almost every pass he made went backwards thus nullifying any threat. Still hoping we'll sign another class attacking option.

Lacking creativity. Supply seems to only come from full backs which was poor today. What happens when full backs are being pegged back by opposition attackers?

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After reading the comments about today's match, what player would suit our no 10 system if you could bring someone in?

Not very encouraged by some of today's comments.

I don't think it's just about the no 10. The strikers need to fit the system too. I'm not sure they do.

mate who was there said we look good in possession. Clearly want to have the ball but wished people would actually shoot and pretty blunt up top???

is that accurate at all?

mate who was there said we look good in possession. Clearly want to have the ball but wished people would actually shoot and pretty blunt up top???

 

 

is that accurate at all?

was he describing the majority of the first 20 games of last season.....

mate who was there said we look good in possession. Clearly want to have the ball but wished people would actually shoot and pretty blunt up top???

 

 

is that accurate at all?

Yes good and comfortable me and mate even commented we look better than them in possession ball control etc

We always tried extra pass summed by Virgil marauding run he should have blasted it but squared it losing possession

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Our front line consisted of long and Redmond out wide and Davis in the middle, much like the 3 in the 4231 of last season. The difference of course is that they don't have a target man ahead of them.

Hoijberg was absolutely outstanding as one of the two midfielders in the first half and effective as the defensive midfielder in the second. Some terrific runs into the box which we have needed. Romeu holding, Hoijberg on the right and one from Clasie, Davis and JWP. Davis had a decent first half paired with Hoijberg but was anonymous in the second as the 10.

Redmond looks useful and quick, Long was as usual, Austin looked decent but JRod needs games. Van Dyjk was outstanding. Pied looked ok but no better than Martina who didn't figure. Cedric gave us good width but floated crosses mostly caught by the keeper. Targett had a good game.

Virgil marauding run

Seeing that today made me think how VvD would excel in a Yaya Toure box-to-box kinda role. He's almost untouchable when he breaks forward and it looks so effortless. (And, yep, he should have blasted it when he got into the box rather than trying to lay it off.)

Agree with this. Of the matches I've seen so far, the team looks unbalanced in attack and Austin does not look suited to the left/right attacking position - he's just not mobile enough and struggles to get into threatening goal scoring positions. One chance in the AB match today which looked good, but one chance is not enough. Having said that, it was just friendly and perhaps they were not busting a gut to move around. JWP is so frustrating in the advanced position - almost every pass he made went backwards thus nullifying any threat. Still hoping we'll sign another class attacking option.

I saw Ward-Prowse making far more attacking passes against Groningen, he didn't do that so much today though. I don't really have a problem with it provided we're leading. Austin is fine in the split striker position and if either Van Dijk or Rodriguez had played the right pass he'd have scored.

Seeing that today made me think how VvD would excel in a Yaya Toure box-to-box kinda role. He's almost untouchable when he breaks forward and it looks so effortless. (And, yep, he should have blasted it when he got into the box rather than trying to lay it off.)

No, he should have laid it off, but done it properly instead of terribly. But that's why he's a centre back.

Hoijberg was absolutely outstanding as one of the two midfielders in the first half and effective as the defensive midfielder in the second. Some terrific runs into the box which we have needed.

Said it after the Espanyol game and today confirmed it for me; he's going to be an incredible player.

No, he should have laid it off, but done it properly instead of terribly. But that's why he's a centre back.

Yep. He should have squared it before the defender moved towards him. There was a split second where he clearly thought "I'm going to smash this but I really should pass it" and when he did try and lay it to Long the defender got in a block.

The only thing which bothers me is that we still seem content with three proven forwards, even though we're playing two up top. Putting Redmond there may pay dividends but I still think a little more depth is needed.

What bothers me is that the strikers are playing so far apart, wider than the 18 yd box. Who's getting in between the CBs?

Austin is wasted out there.

What bothers me is that the strikers are playing so far apart, wider than the 18 yd box. Who's getting in between the CBs?

 

Austin is wasted out there.

Seen similar comments from various people, does seem a strange system to play. Will wait and see before i criticise but I'm not convinced from what I have seen (very little!)

Goals and creativity seem to be the main worry.

Seen similar comments from various people, does seem a strange system to play. Will wait and see before i criticise but I'm not convinced from what I have seen (very little!)

 

Goals and creativity seem to be the main worry.

Seems to be a very common theme.

Can't wait till sat. See if this comes off

Am i the only one who likes the new formation?

Can anyone comment on the pressing of the oppo's full backs....who is doing this? From what I've read, it seems to be the strikers who press the full backs which leaves us in almost a 4-6-0 formation when we don't have the ball? Also, when we win the ball back, do we turn straight back into the diamond with the two back up top, or are they playing really far apart?

I would assume, that for this to work, we need the three most forward players to be very close together or we'll just become isolated and picked off.

Can anyone comment on the pressing of the oppo's full backs....who is doing this? From what I've read, it seems to be the strikers who press the full backs which leaves us in almost a 4-6-0 formation when we don't have the ball? Also, when we win the ball back, do we turn straight back into the diamond with the two back up top, or are they playing really far apart?

 

I would assume, that for this to work, we need the three most forward players to be very close together or we'll just become isolated and picked off.

The strikers (in theory), it seems to work because if a CB has the ball he doesn't even try to pass to the FB if he's marked. Not sure it works if the FBs are pushed a long way forward because there's no way Redmond is confident tracking that far back to his own goal (Long's probably used to it by now having played glorified left mid for us for a while).

The interesting thing is how far forward the player in the hole/creative role behind the front two seems to play. It's a level front 3 with the point of the diamond player as far up the pitch as both strikers. Our use of diagonal from left back/left CB position to set Cedric off up the wing was interesting too, all the other players were marked up as "immediate threats", leaving Cedric unmarked with half a pitch empty in front of him.

Interesting to note the use of both Romeu and Hojbjerg as sole DM at different times yesterday. Romeu didn't have his best game for passing and also got caught in possession a bit.

Presumably the MNF brigade will cover the Friday night Utd game. Now that Neville is returning will be interesting to see his opinion.

The strikers (in theory), it seems to work because if a CB has the ball he doesn't even try to pass to the FB if he's marked. Not sure it works if the FBs are pushed a long way forward because there's no way Redmond is confident tracking that far back to his own goal (Long's probably used to it by now having played glorified left mid for us for a while).

 

The interesting thing is how far forward the player in the hole/creative role behind the front two seems to play. It's a level front 3 with the point of the diamond player as far up the pitch as both strikers. Our use of diagonal from left back/left CB position to set Cedric off up the wing was interesting too, all the other players were marked up as "immediate threats", leaving Cedric unmarked with half a pitch empty in front of him.

 

Interesting to note the use of both Romeu and Hojbjerg as sole DM at different times yesterday. Romeu didn't have his best game for passing and also got caught in possession a bit.

Sounds like a player like Mane would be perfect for the diamond point ! Personally I think we lose a lot of Tadic's ability when he's stuck in the middle.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds we are very tidy in possession and solid at the back, I wonder how we will get on when teams defend deep park the bus and negate our pace.

I think we definitely need one more striker maybe two I just can't see J-Rod being the player he was, another number 10 type player is also a must to give us another option.

Unsure if this is new or just a re-mix of old articles:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/68266

Not a fan of the diamond myself - its very easy to defend against it - away teams will sit in and defend deep to negate the pace we have

I'm also not sure it suits our players, far better in the 4-2-3-1 with Hojberg/Romeu as the 2, Tadic, Davis and Redmond as the 3 and Long up top. Plenty of options on the bench there as well

We will see but i can sat being a bore fest of them sitting in and us not being able to break them down ...

Reading the thread all the debate seems to be around our offensive play. It would seem that as we haven't lost a friendly (although we never really played anyone who wanted to win), the defensive side of the system is a bit of an unknown.

My concern would be that we could be overrun as quite a few team play three in the middle.

Presumably the MNF brigade will cover the Friday night Utd game. Now that Neville is returning will be interesting to see his opinion.

Noted plastic Man U fan Rachel Riley is presenting FNF, which means I'll be watching the recording even if Saints get thrashed... http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rachel-riley-scores-new-friday-night-football-presenting-job-sky-sports-1574883

Dodged a bullet there given that James Corden was rumoured to be an option at one point.

Not a fan of the diamond myself - its very easy to defend against it - away teams will sit in and defend deep to negate the pace we have

 

I'm also not sure it suits our players, far better in the 4-2-3-1 with Hojberg/Romeu as the 2, Tadic, Davis and Redmond as the 3 and Long up top. Plenty of options on the bench there as well

 

We will see but i can sat being a bore fest of them sitting in and us not being able to break them down ...

I have to agree I think the players we have really suit the 4-2-3-1 formation. Fingers crossed the diamond works...two up top isn't something you see often in the Prem anymore.

I'm not keen on it myself , I know Leicester won the league with 4 in there but personally I prefer 5 in midfield . If you want to play 2 upfront , then go with a back 3 . A 4-3-3 in possession becoming a 4-5-1 out of it would be my choice . I just worry that a 4-4-2 that has a number 10 and therefore only 1 CDM will leave us wide open imo . If he wants to play a 10 , then I'd want a 4-4-1-1 with 2 CDM's .

http://freshsaints.com/a-tactical-analysis-of-claude-puels-southampton/?

Has anyone who commented after this actually read the analysis? It sounds good but how it plays out is another thing. I have tended in the past to agree with the claim that:

Better players = better likelihood of success

as I think have most.

What I do dislike about it is that our best goal threat can/does become ineffective in it and that JRod needs a run of games at this level. He wasn't great according to many who posted here when he first arrived and had to grow into the team and with 10 mins here and there and playing for the U23s he's just being wasted. If course, some people expect him to suddenly become a revelation after 10 minutes, but ... .

In that case I'd rather just sell him and Austin so that they get game time which they need and we don't have them sitting on the bench as I don't consider that either are or will be particularly good as a substitute and I suspect they'll not be happy about it.

If JRod does go out on loan as someone has said, but said it should be the league below, why that league? It won't develop him: he's past it. He'd need to go to a taxing league abroad (France, Germany) and the chances of that are slim to none.

As a further comment on Austin he has 2 goals so far as has Redmond in 1st team games, but one has played much more and in a system that gives him the ball and plays to his strengths i.e. it allows him to dribble at opponents and the changes of formation (this also includes RK's tenure) do indicate that LR's comment that 'We play 433 throughout the club because it allows the greatest flexibility and possibility to adapt to and change into other systems quickly and easily" made some years ago was rubbish. The only thing that happens is that (at least) the 2 senior teams mirror each other as this is likely to make switching from the lower to the higher far easier for reasons which should be obvious.

It also undermines the comments stating that while the manager may change, other things remain the same. As this is Saintsweb I will (have to) explain that by saying that if we now have a system that relies on quick players up front as opposed to a target man e.g. RL/GP then we do require different personnel which in turn affects both future recruitment and means we are left with players that might be or are 'redundant' and so they remain out of proper contention for the first team and this mirrors the old situation where a manager effectively determined strategy/playing style/recruitment heavily.

Let's see how we do against Man U in the Friday game - I wouldn't read too much into Watford based on what their forums have had to say although the interesting thing to watch out for will be how/if Materazzi changes formation as it seems he likes several and will change this during a game to suit. One of the more interesting ones is 343 with the only constant being that he likes 3 at the back and then splits what happens above that line.

Finally, for those interested (or who watched a lot of French football), what systems are deployed there, how effective are they, how effective were Nice against the different systems, how good were they against the good/better teams, how good against defensive teams and how would they have done had Ben Arfa not had a blinder? The point being that while PSG would do very well were they to play in the PL, they wouldn't walk it like they do in France and if they'd drop off given how Nice =/= PSG if we had brought over last year's team and transported it into the PL how likely is it that it would have fared as well as we did? This does have to ignore the difference in the standard of player somewhat but does include it at least indirectly in that (we assume) overall the standard of player in the PL > that in Ligue 1.

I have to agree I think the players we have really suit the 4-2-3-1 formation. Fingers crossed the diamond works...two up top isn't something you see often in the Prem anymore.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/aug/25/the-question-diamond-tactics-jonathan-wilson

good analysis of the diamond midfield.

Bottom line, it can be incredibly stale/goalless if you are channeling all creativity through one key #10, and that player fails to deliver.

The lack of width is the downside of the diamond midfield, and opposing teams should play wide, pressing our full backs, to ensure that we are limited to 2-3 key people in the middle of the park.

However, premier league doesn't really play with out and out wide wingers very often in a kind of high line of 3/false 9.

CONS for Saints: No experienced #10. No real wingers except Redmond to keep opposition full backs pinned back and allow Bertrand/Cedric to overlap. With Pelle's loss, there are not many people who can hold up the ball to allow our fullbacks to get forward. Only by accident will Cedric get forward, for instance where JWP/whoever else is covering close to the box and Cedric is out wide. If we break on the attack, he will go forward rather than the player further back. The speed through the middle/towards the sides is wasted by and large. The only way we get the most out of Long is if he does the same as against Bilbao; the #10 slots a pass in behind the CB and Long runs onto it (was more of a hoof ball but you get the point). Austin is also wasted except for corners or in the case that the attack builds giving him time to get to the edge of the box. My feeling is we won't get this time very often. We just don't have the quality except in 2-3 attacking players to have solid possession football close to their by-line and then lump it into the box. Yes, Tadic is one of these players.

PROS for Saints: We have now 1.5 very good midfield players to play in front of Romeu. Hojbjerg and Clasie/Davis (only 0.5 because of last seasons showing and consistency, but we could say 1 to be fair). These will be vital for allowing close quarters possession football to be played further up the pitch, and such quality allows us to recover the ball quickly since Romeu, Clasie and Hojbjerg have defensive pedigree. Our fullbacks are very good, are encouraged to get forward and have exceptional defensive cover at CB, with solid cover inside in the midfield (6/8 roles) so that every attack doesn't need to be a huge risk. Since our fullbacks will be the place that teams are most effective to go for - because we play narrow and the midfield is strong - the opposition is likely to put crosses into the box. Pro? We have height in the box to deal with that.

http://freshsaints.com/a-tactical-analysis-of-claude-puels-southampton/?

Has anyone who commented after this actually read the analysis? It sounds good but how it plays out is another thing. I have tended in the past to agree with the claim that:.

I read the analysis, thought it was rather too prescriptive about what happens, as opposed to what might happen, and the weird L twice used in the middle of the DM positional label confused me for ages and (as I'd assumed it was "left") confused the hell out of me until I chose to interpret it as just "DM".

In terms of what it said, lots of words to not say that much about positional hypotheticals, which unfortunately is why you don't get much tactical discussion. The article did underpin the number 10 role and make me wonder who we plan on playing there, it seems key to creativity particularly in this formation, and for the past couple of years when we've had an approximation of the role (though usually behind Pelle as a lone central striker) we've either seen Davis there (not the most nuanced forward passer), Mane (direct running, tended to open space by forcing a defensive reaction, but obviously has left - though Redmond seems similarly effective if less direct) or Tadic (seems best out wide playing crosses in).

So in theory at least, it seems to be a system geared around a type of player we don't actually have (and you can also tell why Ben Arfa would work there, in that formation the strikers do much of his tracking back for him).

My concern for playing this at the weekend was how often Targett was left on his own defending against two attackers (when Bilbao could be bothered to attack). Seems a bit nuts that we've spent 4 years getting players in to suit the clubs way of playing e.g. 4-3-3 and then ditching it. I of course hope to be proved wrong!

What I do dislike about it is that our best goal threat can/does become ineffective in it

Do you mean Austin? The article implied that the front two split with one going to the ball and the other making (more or less) a far post/blind side run, which would - half of the time, unless they decide Long goes for everything - leave Austin in the box for the finish. Of course he has to be on the pitch for that and Redmond/Long seems to currently be the preferred option.

and that JRod needs a run of games at this level. He wasn't great according to many who posted here when he first arrived and had to grow into the team and with 10 mins here and there and playing for the U23s he's just being wasted. If course, some people expect him to suddenly become a revelation after 10 minutes, but ...

It does look like he's being judged on his current contribution not his past, and I can't really complain about that - pretty much any striker should look better over a longer term as they get to know where the ball is going and the release signs, and the midfield gets to appreciate the triggers for when they should play the ball - so it's not just him that would benefit from a run, and I'm not sure if what he gives us is necessarily better than what we've got. It was the same argument for Long over Pelle though, the problem being we can never know what would happen in the opposite situation.

My concern for playing this at the weekend was how often Targett was left on his own defending against two attackers (when Bilbao could be bothered to attack). Seems a bit nuts that we've spent 4 years getting players in to suit the clubs way of playing e.g. 4-3-3 and then ditching it. I of course hope to be proved wrong!

There's not much difference between the "4-3-3" (arguably 4-1-2-2-1) of last season and the "4-4-2" (4-1-2-1-2) of this, at least defensively. Even when Schneiderlin was here he did more forward work than Wanyama as the 2 in the 4-2-3-1, we've always had at least one fixed DM and varying degrees of shuttling defensive-minded players alongside, though Schneiderlin's workrate and positioning meant he was always there to be the second DM as well.

The 3-5-2/5-3-2 we tried last season regularly left Cedric facing two players for exactly the same reason as your concern about the Athletic Bilbao game. All these formations stack the midfield narrow and the space is in front of the wide defenders. Bournemouth's left back (Daniels?) absolutely murdered us there all match long despite making formation changes, because he was bringing the ball from halfway to the edge of the box mostly unchallenged and then Gradel (for one) was able to get the ball in a threatening area and create something - albeit mostly just set pieces on that occasion.

FWIW I have absolutely no idea what Watford are going to do, which is probably one of the most important factors when considering possible weaknesses.