When do we stop being a "selling club"?

We've seen the news that Van Dijk is leaving and that Bertrand might leave. While neither of these transfers would be unexpected, they would still come as a bit of a blow to this Saints' fan's morale: it's disheartening to have to lose our best players each year.

So my question is: is there a longer term plan that would see us stop being a selling club? Or is this it - is this state of affairs the best we can hope for and will the club continue to be run in this manner for the foreseeable future?

Before someone out there says "every club, aside from Real, Barca and Bayern, is a selling club", let me clarify: by "selling club", I simply mean that when one of our players has a stand out season he is invariably sold, either that summer or (at best) the following summer.

What do you think?

When we have every player who is ****e

Never going to happen.

About the time we can offer the biggest wages in Europe and CL football every season....could be a while yet

We have the only billioniare owner who wants to make money out of a football club

Bloody good business model if you ask me. Buy quality cheap and sell on for massive profits! As long as it continues and we continue to buy quality, I am happy! More concerned that we play an entertaining style to showcase the talent.

When you have Utd selling Ronaldo, who at the time where the biggest club in the world we have no chance

Bloody good business model if you ask me. Buy quality cheap and sell on for massive profits! As long as it continues and we continue to buy quality, I am happy! More concerned that we play an entertaining style to showcase the talent.

Except last year already offered enough evidence that our luck is running thin when playing that particular game.

I think the answer is something to do with us being able to attract good players because they know we won't stand in the way of a move to a top club.

So the fact we sell our good players is exactly the reason we have those players in the first place.

It's pretty gutting of course, but I'm not sure how worthwhile it is for a club of our size to turn down £60m. Maybe if we felt we were one season away from breaking into the top 4, and even though it's not inconceivable, on the balance of what we've seen this season does it look like we're going to achieve that next campaign? And perhaps more saliently, does it look possible to our current players?

Instead what I ask of the club is that we dig our heels in a bit, get the best deal (whether money or re the club we sell to), preferably force the player to issue a transfer request, have deals for replacements sorted early and re-invest all the transfer money. Losing our best players feels inevitable, but how it is managed makes the difference between a steady improvement or steady decline.

I think the answer is something to do with us being able to attract good players because they know we won't stand in the way of a move to a top club.

 

So the fact we sell our good players is exactly the reason we have those players in the first place.

 

It's pretty gutting of course, but I'm not sure how worthwhile it is for a club of our size to turn down £60m. Maybe if we felt we were one season away from breaking into the top 4, and even though it's not inconceivable, on the balance of what we've seen this season does it look like we're going to achieve that next campaign? And perhaps more saliently, does it look possible to our current players?

 

Instead what I ask of the club is that we dig our heels in a bit, get the best deal (whether money or re the club we sell to), preferably force the player to issue a transfer request, have deals for replacements sorted early and re-invest all the transfer money. Losing our best players feels inevitable, but how it is managed makes the difference between a steady improvement or steady decline.

Thanks for that thoughtful reply. You're probably right about the likes of Van Dijk signing on the assumption or verbal agreement that they can leave if a good enough offer comes in; that probably plays a part in us attracting players of his caliber.

However, I am not suggesting that we can stop being a "selling club" overnight so that none of our players would leave. I'm just wondering when - if ever - we can stem the tide and slow down the departures (and/or extend our top players stay in the club from 2 to 3 or 4 years)?

We will always be a selling club (but then every club bar Madrid and Barcelona is a selling club realistically). It would, however, be nice if we stopped turning over 2-3 or more of our best players every single year. I could live with say one major outgoing each summer but the constant exodus and rebuild is getting tiresome. Everton manage to limit/manage the flow of their sales, why can't we?

I read article yesterday bout Monaco, and how they sold their best players, invested in youth, and then won league. We should do that. French League title is less gd than Prem Title, but I still wouldn't turn it down.

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-special-how-monaco-became-unlikely-champions

I read article yesterday bout Monaco, and how they sold their best players, invested in youth, and then won league. We should do that. French League title is less gd than Prem Title, but I still wouldn't turn it down.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-special-how-monaco-became-unlikely-champions

Monaco, Athletico Madrid & Dortmund are models we should be following and look to copy. Both top clubs, who sale to the elite for ridiculous money.

At the end of the day, we just need to accept where we are in the food chain. With the money coming into the PL, I don't see why we cannot compete with these type of clubs in 5 - 10 years time.

Monaco & Dortmund are models we should be following and look to copy. Both top clubs, who sale to the elite for ridiculous money.

 

At the end of the day, we just need to accept where we are in the food chain. With the money coming into the PL, I don't see why we cannot compete with these type of clubs in 5 - 10 years time.

One of the reason Tuchel fell out with Dortmund was because he was upset about their best players being sold and being replaced with talented youth rather than ready made replacements. So if we are to follow that model we need a manager who buys into it. It certainly never felt like Koeman really did.

Prediction: We will always sell players.

That is all.

One of the reason Tuchel fell out with Dortmund was because he was upset about their best players being sold and being replaced with talented youth rather than ready made replacements. So if we are to follow that model we need a manager who buys into it. It certainly never felt like Koeman really did.

Of course this is the case, the board need to sound out someone who is willing to stick around and build something. They tried this with Puel, it just hasn't worked for one reason or another. I think pretty much everyone would have accepted this season, had the football been a bit better.

I agree Koeman was only ever interested in the here and now, as I believe he is at Everton. You'd be a fool to think he's not got an eye on a Job at one of the elite clubs.

Tuchel is a difficult one, I suspect it will be explained to him what his remit is and what the boards plans are and he will accept / decline the job on that basis. If we can attract Tuchel, it will be a big name to steady the ship in a time of uncertainty (similar to when Koeman took over). If Tuchel signs, it will be for 2/3 years max until a bigger job comes along. However, if he is as successful as Koeman, then we would be in a very very good place to build as we were last summer.

We'd then need someone similar to Poch (I honestly believe he would have stayed and would still be here if Cortese hadn't gone, but that's a separate argument, and i'm not saying I wanted him to stay...), who would have had us in the CL by now, IMO.

It doesn't help having an owner that doesn't want to be here and I'm not sure the Chinese bunch are the answer either. All we can do is hope that someone of Kat's ilk (very much hands off and leaves the football business to the football people), but with a load more money, comes in and takes over.

1) have players no one wants

2) offer the wages of £100k+

3) dreamland if the Premier League introduced say a wage cap of £50k a week maximum.

Monaco, Athletico Madrid & Dortmund are models we should be following and look to copy. Both top clubs, who sale to the elite for ridiculous money.

 

At the end of the day, we just need to accept where we are in the food chain. With the money coming into the PL, I don't see why we cannot compete with these type of clubs in 5 - 10 years time.

We cannot follow their models given that there are 6 clubs way bigger than us in our league. These teams can mop up talent from the snaller clubs in their leagues, granted maybe Monaco is an exception but again only PSG is a contender in their league these past couple seasons (given relatively poor failings of Marseille and Lyon)

To try and emulate them we'd have to buy players like Sigurdsson, Keane and other players from clubs below us (exactly what Liverpool and Spurs do)... (And then sell them onto the elites further as Dortmund do across the world).

Not really a 'when' but more a 'how'

the whole time our business model is to buy young/unproven and make a

profit, coupled with no champions league football we will be in this position

There are loads of rumours of players leaving but they are only rumours nobody has left, the transfer window is not open and none of our players can have been approached officially.

If Saints say "No" then nobody will leave. Allowing key players to move on before future ownership issues are settled would be a folly of huge proportions by any owner. Would you be happy to buy a house if the owner sold the kitchen behind your back during final negotiations?

Let's keep some perspective on this and see what happens in July, for now let's all take President Putin's advice " Don't worry, be happy!"

We cannot follow their models given that there are 6 clubs way bigger than us in our league. These teams can mop up talent from the snaller clubs in their leagues, granted maybe Monaco is an exception but again only PSG is a contender in their league these past couple seasons (given relatively poor failings of Marseille and Lyon)

 

To try and emulate them we'd have to buy players like Sigurdsson, Keane and other players from clubs below us (exactly what Liverpool and Spurs do)... (And then sell them onto the elites further as Dortmund do across the world).

Throughout the 90's and early 00's Tottenham were in a similar position to us. Obviously they are lucky to have more history and a London base, however it hasn't stopped them now becoming one of the best teams in the PL.

It is a slow process, you need to operate as we currently are, break into the EL consistently, move up a level, then push for the CL. I would say it will be between us, Everton and West Ham (if they can sort themselves out) as to who is the next club to challenge the top 6.. Looking likely to be Everton, at the moment.

As for recruitment, you don't necessarily need to look to take players from other PL clubs. The PL has such a massive pull due to the money on offer, we can battle it out with European clubs, bigger than us, for European players.

France currently has a massive pool of talent and I'd love for us to take advantage of that. It comes down to having an exceptional recruitment team...

We stop being a selling club when a wage cap that we can afford is put in place. TBH it would be to the benefit to all of football, but the big clubs would never agree to it, nor do I think the PL would. Of course the wage cap would have to be either for the whole of UEFA if not FIFA.

We've seen the news that Van Dijk is leaving and that Bertrand might leave. While neither of these transfers would be unexpected, they would still come as a bit of a blow to this Saints' fan's morale: it's disheartening to have to lose our best players each year.

 

So my question is: is there a longer term plan that would see us stop being a selling club? Or is this it - is this state of affairs the best we can hope for and will the club continue to be run in this manner for the foreseeable future?

 

Before someone out there says "every club, aside from Real, Barca and Bayern, is a selling club", let me clarify: by "selling club", I simply mean that when one of our players has a stand out season he is invariably sold, either that summer or (at best) the following summer.

What do you think?

Well that's the main reason you sell your best players, when they are coming off a very decent season and so you sell at maximum, or at least should do.

When Kruger stated a few weeks ago that we have never been in a stronger position in terms of contract lengths he was telling the football world that if you want our players then you need to pay top dollar. We will always sell but over the next 3-5 years if we do not see that slow down to no more than one (top player) each season then the business model is not placing football results at the top of the objectives. The model we have had since Leibherr bought the club has allowed us to get to this point. On the pitch we have had a small set-back (but that was inevitable at some point) so this summer is going to be the most pivotal in recent times.

I'd be disappointed if VVD goes this summer (especially if less than £70m, and to Liverpool at any cost really, as hes too good for them; which means he is better than us but we have him!) but I expect 4-5 departures as the squad needs some freshening up, particularly if we replace Puel too.

In a club of our size and ambition we need our best players to be the spine of the team, GK, CBs, CMs, Striker(s), this is where we need our best players. If our best players are our full-backs and our wingers then we will not be a top 6 side. For this reason I would not be too concerned if Bertrand, Soares, Tadic, JRod and Long were all to leave. I should think we could get between £70-80m for that lot meaning we could sign a decent CB - Samedo seems the chosen one for c.£15m. - a DM for £15-20m, an AM for £15-20m, and a ST for c.£20m. That would be roughly an even net spend, plus wage differences, easily manageable. This is the art of football management, buying and selling to make the overall whole better.

It is also hypocritical to criticise the club for selling, because if clubs did not sell then we could not buy - it is the world we live in. The generation that is currently in their 20s (our predominant age group) is an age group where moving jobs every 2-3 years is normal in every day life and why should footballers be much different? Of course, as emotional fans we want longer commitment but it works the other way, as we would never get some in the first place.

Many will not like it but we all need to accept this way forward as it is the business model and will likely continue to be so even if we are bought by new owners - we might just see players of a slightly higher calibre but I'm not convinced by that, I think the investment from any potential new owner will be for ground infrastructure as much as the squad.

Buy, sell, buy, sell, this is what football is all about, this is part of the excitement. If we don't sell we don't buy. Unfortunately we have to hope that those in charge can create a culture within the club where players stay for 3-4-5 years more often than just 2-3. Longer contracts should help with that so we will see this summer the reality.

Bloody good business model if you ask me. Buy quality cheap and sell on for massive profits! As long as it continues and we continue to buy quality, I am happy! More concerned that we play an entertaining style to showcase the talent.

There are very few 'businesses' that have a model of letting their best people leave every year! That is not a 'business model' That is a plan to fail or at best stand still which always equals eventual decline.....

It's no use being conceited about the partial luck we have enjoyed this year. This is not a sustainable low risk business strategy, apart from the fact that that this is a results driven business. It is amazing how many business 'experts' there are in here who like to uligise about the club as a business and how successful it is as a business. Us fans are not ruddy directors or share holders, we are fans who have different aspirations beginning and ending with success and that is our role - not profit and loss!

Short answer, when we build and more importantly fill a 65,000 capacity stadium or persuade Bill Gates living in Woolston is the ideal place to raise a family.

There are very few 'businesses' that have a model of letting their best people leave every year! That is not a 'business model' That is a plan to fail or at best stand still which always equals eventual decline.....

It's no use being conceited about the partial luck we have enjoyed this year. This is not a sustainable low risk business strategy, apart from the fact that that this is a results driven business. It is amazing how many business 'experts' there are in here who like to uligise about the club as a business and how successful it is as a business. Us fans are not ruddy directors or share holders, we are fans who have different aspirations beginning and ending with success and that is our role - not profit and loss!

This is true but in most business the best people will still change roles even if they stay in the company. Footballers cant get "promoted" or "take on a new challenge/role/project" without moving clubs.

Thanks for that thoughtful reply. You're probably right about the likes of Van Dijk signing on the assumption or verbal agreement that they can leave if a good enough offer comes in; that probably plays a part in us attracting players of his caliber.

 

However, I am not suggesting that we can stop being a "selling club" overnight so that none of our players would leave. I'm just wondering when - if ever - we can stem the tide and slow down the departures (and/or extend our top players stay in the club from 2 to 3 or 4 years)?

The difficulty is that 2-3 years is a reasonable period of service for our good players who want to, and could be competing for honours. It means there are always 2 or 3 players coming up to that length of service, and unless there is good reason to think that 'one more year' will result in us in cracking Champions League, why would they be happy to stay?

Then it's a vicious circle, because we keep losing the players, so we keep taking a step backwards and we never reach that point of being "one step away". If VVD & Bertrand go this summer, then who next year? Romeu, Cedric, Gabbiadini?

I think therefore the only way to slow down or stop the yearly exodus is for the replacement signings to hit the ground running and ultimately improve the team. It's unlikely that, for example, Semedo will be better than Van Dijk, but Semedo, Sakho and Sigurdsson just might be (not saying we'd get them all, but as an example).

Last summer we had the likes of Redmond, Boufal and Hojbjerg come in. Still reason to think they might come good but they certainly didn't have the immediate impact needed to feel like we made progress.

 

It is a slow process, you need to operate as we currently are, break into the EL consistently, move up a level, then push for the CL. I would say it will be between us, Everton and West Ham (if they can sort themselves out) as to who is the next club to challenge the top 6.. Looking likely to be Everton, at the moment.

 

Once a player makes it he won't want to play here, it's a pipe dream to think we can move up a level, just look at how tiny our ground is for starters, it's all about perception and we don't have a big history and we built a new ground which is still small by modern day standards. We blood players for others sadly.

Short answer, when we build and more importantly fill a 65,000 capacity stadium or persuade Bill Gates living in Woolston is the ideal place to raise a family.

Even then, look at the vultures circling Alexis Sanchez and the Emirates holds 60k. Arsenal missing out on top 4 makes them vulnerable.

Everyone pointed to Leicester last summer and said they kept all of their key players - but look at Mahrez now. Key is to not lose 4-5 in one or two windows and to get back to recruiting well like 2014 and 2015 - last 2 windows bar Gabi and Redmond have been shockers.

Once a player makes it he won't want to play here, it's a pipe dream to think we can move up a level, just look at how tiny our ground is for starters, it's all about perception and we don't have a big history and we built a new ground which is still small by modern day standards. We blood players for others sadly.

But we can grow whilst doing that, last year was the regression because we picked the wrong manager for our brand and squad but that's being put right it seems. It's about Saints doing well - loved Europe last season bar the Prague and HBS horrors - and we got there by re-investing well. Let's make last season a blip - we still got the TV money for 8th with only 46 points and a much weaker starting XI. Get the right manager in and people will starting feeling more positive.

Every club is a selling club, I'd imagine if someone big enough comes in with enough money then the likes of Harry Kane and Deli Ali will go, they are losing Walker to a club that finished below them.

Man Utd lost Ronaldo and they are one of biggest clubs in the world, Juventus lost Pogba and they were just in the Champions League final, have won titles for years and yet he moved to a club that finished 6th and 5th over the last two years.

We just have to make sure the deal does the best for the club if these players want to go and the club has obviously avoided the player running the contract down like with Wanyama to ensure full value.

IMO we should have got more for Mane, but we got good deals for Morgan, Lallana, Shaw and Lovren and many of our sales haven't worked out amazingly for the buying club or the player.

i also reckon we must be stretching it on wage budget, I'd reckon we don't need to sell for transfer funds but their can't be a huge amount of room in the wage budget.

We probably need to off load Jay Rod, Clasie and Long I reckon to make room for some new players. As I reckon all 3 of those players will be paid in the 40-60k bracket easily.

Ralph said that the last few summers we had to sell to balance the books. If selling bros is now a choice rather than a necessity, then that's progress I suppose. Unless it's more lies of course, cos even when we apparently needed the money, they told us The Opposite, for perfectly understandable reason.

There are very few 'businesses' that have a model of letting their best people leave every year! That is not a 'business model' That is a plan to fail or at best stand still which always equals eventual decline.....

It's no use being conceited about the partial luck we have enjoyed this year. This is not a sustainable low risk business strategy, apart from the fact that that this is a results driven business. It is amazing how many business 'experts' there are in here who like to uligise about the club as a business and how successful it is as a business. Us fans are not ruddy directors or share holders, we are fans who have different aspirations beginning and ending with success and that is our role - not profit and loss!

You should look at them not as people, but as a product.

Best people would be Manager, DoF, Finance director etc.

Players are the comodity, so as a business model it is a good one, I agree, but not for us that hate to see the Souped up BMW 7 series replaced with a 1 series every year.

You should look at them not as people, but as a product.

Best people would be Manager, DoF, Finance director etc.

Players are the comodity, so as a business model it is a good one, I agree, but not for us that hate to see the Souped up BMW 7 series replaced with a 1 series every year.

I beg to differ. The 'product' is results and entertainment not the players. Players are assets with which you need in order to produce the product.... The business model if you are a share holder is to buy and sell assets and make money. As fans we pay money for results and entertainment. Our model is not concerned with the way our team make money but how they perform.

There are very few 'businesses' that have a model of letting their best people leave every year! That is not a 'business model' That is a plan to fail or at best stand still which always equals eventual decline.....

It's no use being conceited about the partial luck we have enjoyed this year. This is not a sustainable low risk business strategy, apart from the fact that that this is a results driven business. It is amazing how many business 'experts' there are in here who like to uligise about the club as a business and how successful it is as a business. Us fans are not ruddy directors or share holders, we are fans who have different aspirations beginning and ending with success and that is our role - not profit and loss!

So if you're a good employee and accept a job somewhere else, your firm would refuse to let you leave? And if they did refuse, you would continue to work there without any negative effect on your morale? What about if your firm was due compensation if you left?

The fact that players are employees but can also be bought and sold makes football a very unusual 'business', and the way you have tried to draw parallels to every day business doesn't really work. thorpie the sinner also adds "as long as we continue to buy quality" as a caveat - this is the key point. Reinvest well and the model can be successful and sustainable. Recruit badly and we're in trouble.

Players only stay with a club for less money if they have a personal attachment to it or if they're really inspired by the manager. Even then it's probably very rare in the prem league.

One area i think we could be better is hovering up the top young talent from the championship, we don't seem to do that very often.

Look at Spurs, Ali, Rose, Walker, Bale before that that is some top talent recruited from the lower leagues, we haven't really done much of that since Clyne.

I was kind of sad we didn't pick up players like Lewis Cook and Lookman.

Its not who we sell that is weakening us but who we buy. We are slow, ponderous and indecisive when buying players in the summer transfer market. We often get out muscled by even modest opposition and leave everything to the last minute.

There are three clubs in the world who are not "selling clubs". Bayern, Barca, Real.

Everyone else can be poached - watch Hazard go to Real this summer.

Tricky one, I suspect it will be when we get an owner who really has shedloads of money and doesn't think twice about pouring vast amounts of it into the club for no return .

Tricky one, I suspect it will be when we get an owner who really has shedloads of money and doesn't think twice about pouring vast amounts of it into the club for no return .

Is that allowed under FFP?

There is a food chain in football not sure anyone disputes that, and if we lost 1 top player every other summer like Leicester did last (Kante) and this (likely Mahrez) there would probably be few disputes.

Think the issue is selling 3-4 EVERY summer plus the fetish Les seems to have with Liverpool transfers

no other top club sells 3+ of its best player every single year

none, unless they are in the financial shyt

Is that allowed under FFP?

Of course, you've just got to be a bit devious about it. Last time I looked Emirates Airways put more into Citeh than they actually make in a year. You buy a club, you get your best mate or cousin to the 15th degree to give you a whacking great sponsorship deal and you sort it out with him in some Caiman Islands account afterwards; It really isn't that complex. Take PSG, owned by the Qatari Royal Family and sponsored by Qatari Airways or The Tourist Board or whatever.

If she really wanted to do it in style Ms Liebherr could persuade her uncles and aunts to sponsor the club and give us 20 times whatever Virgin do. It's a separate entity and would pass the FFP tests with flying colours.

Short answer, when we build and more importantly fill a 65,000 capacity stadium or persuade Bill Gates living in Woolston is the ideal place to raise a family.

Works for me.

Never as we are not one of the worlds elite and that will never change. I hate the fact we get done every summer but some of that is due to players contracts winding down others because as a club we choose to. Not great but it's not going to change - either accept it or go elsewhere seems to be the choice - I know which one I choose.

The whole premise of this thread is flawed since the opening post is inaccurate. There is no news that Van Dijk is leaving. The stories in the press are fake news. If there have been any approaches to him they would be illegal and should result in sanctions against any club breaking the rules. If fake stories have been planted to unsettle players, that is also illegal. It will be interesting to see the Premier League have the balls to act against the club named by Radio Solent.

no other top club sells 3+ of its best player every single year

 

none, unless they are in the financial shyt

Perhaps we should get in crap players and not improve them then we wont sell them

Short answer, when we build and more importantly fill a 65,000 capacity stadium or persuade Bill Gates living in Woolston is the ideal place to raise a family.

Gates would be more than welcome in Woolston, and I would be happy to have a pint with him in my local.

But if he started giving it the big one about Windows 10 and Microsoft Edge, I would f*cking end him.

'Oi, Gates Nooooo'.

Perhaps we should get in crap players and not improve them then we wont sell them

or, we could just not sell 2 of the 3?

Just refuse to sell VvD, it is world cup year. He is hardly going to sulk and go on strike/give up is he