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Venezuela's New Dawn


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So let's get this straight. You're offering up as evidence that Maduro is a legitimate political leader an election that was declared invalid by Venezuela's own national assembly, condemned by the Lima Group of Latin American countries (who particularly attacked the imprisonment and torture of Maduro's electoral opponents), the EU (which called the whole electoral process 'fraudulent') and the UN (which said that the 'minimal conditions for free and fair elections ' were not met).

 

The only countries prepared to back the result were North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Cuba and some smaller Caribbean-island recipients of cheap Venezuelan oil.

 

So THAT's the result you want to hang your hat on, on the same day that huge demonstrations in Caracas were met by riot police who put down their batons and walked away - unprepared to break the heads of people whose lives have been severely damaged by the Maduro's family's rampant kleptocracy and violence.

 

Real man of the people aren't you.

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So let's get this straight. You're offering up as evidence that Maduro is a legitimate political leader an election that was declared invalid by Venezuela's own national assembly, condemned by the Lima Group of Latin American countries (who particularly attacked the imprisonment and torture of Maduro's electoral opponents), the EU (which called the whole electoral process 'fraudulent') and the UN (which said that the 'minimal conditions for free and fair elections ' were not met).

 

The only countries prepared to back the result were North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Cuba and some smaller Caribbean-island recipients of cheap Venezuelan oil.

 

So THAT's the result you want to hang your hat on, on the same day that huge demonstrations in Caracas were met by riot police who put down their batons and walked away - unprepared to break the heads of people whose lives have been severely damaged by the Maduro's family's rampant kleptocracy and violence.

 

Real man of the people aren't you.

Brilliant post Verbal
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So let's get this straight. You're offering up as evidence that Maduro is a legitimate political leader an election that was declared invalid by Venezuela's own national assembly, condemned by the Lima Group of Latin American countries (who particularly attacked the imprisonment and torture of Maduro's electoral opponents), the EU (which called the whole electoral process 'fraudulent') and the UN (which said that the 'minimal conditions for free and fair elections ' were not met).

 

The only countries prepared to back the result were North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Cuba and some smaller Caribbean-island recipients of cheap Venezuelan oil.

 

So THAT's the result you want to hang your hat on, on the same day that huge demonstrations in Caracas were met by riot police who put down their batons and walked away - unprepared to break the heads of people whose lives have been severely damaged by the Maduro's family's rampant kleptocracy and violence.

 

Real man of the people aren't you.

 

You've conveniently missed out the rather large countries of China and Turkey also recognising the electoral process. Which make this "coalition of the willing" rather larger than the one backing Bush's nightmarish invasion of Iraq which no doubt you were fully behind. Just a coincidence that Venezuela has even more oil than Iraq obviously nothing to do with why Trump is so keen to enact "regime change."

You've obviously no problem with hundreds of thousands more people dying in some bloody civil conflict. What a man of the people.

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You've conveniently missed out the rather large countries of China and Turkey also recognising the electoral process. Which make this "coalition of the willing" rather larger than the one backing Bush's nightmarish invasion of Iraq which no doubt you were fully behind. Just a coincidence that Venezuela has even more oil than Iraq obviously nothing to do with why Trump is so keen to enact "regime change."

You've obviously no problem with hundreds of thousands more people dying in some bloody civil conflict. What a man of the people.

Interesting but not surprising that when you have millions fleeing a country, many dying and hundreds of thousands being unable to feed themselves or receive basic medical attention, jonnyboy is on the side of the regime that propogates it. Using the same logic presumably you'd also be on the side of Kim Jong Un if anyone attempted regime change there too?
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You've conveniently missed out the rather large countries of China and Turkey also recognising the electoral process. Which make this "coalition of the willing" rather larger than the one backing Bush's nightmarish invasion of Iraq which no doubt you were fully behind. Just a coincidence that Venezuela has even more oil than Iraq obviously nothing to do with why Trump is so keen to enact "regime change."

You've obviously no problem with hundreds of thousands more people dying in some bloody civil conflict. What a man of the people.

 

Fair do's. China and Turkey. #goldstandard

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Interesting but not surprising that when you have millions fleeing a country, many dying and hundreds of thousands being unable to feed themselves or receive basic medical attention, jonnyboy is on the side of the regime that propogates it. Using the same logic presumably you'd also be on the side of Kim Jong Un if anyone attempted regime change there too?

 

Millions, lol.

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Millions, lol.
That's your response? No denial that any of that stuff is actually happening then?

 

Around 2.3 million Venezuelans have left the country over the past few years. That’s about 7 percent of the country’s population.

According to the U.N.,*there has been a 900 percent increase*in Venezuelan nationals living abroad in South America.

 

Colombia has received the largest number of Venezuelans. This year,*the Colombian government estimated*that there were 870,093 Venezuelans in the country, over 45,000 of whom have expired visas or entered without authorization.

 

 

So yes millions is accurate although even if it were hundreds of thousands the point would be the same. c4baa665df7ce1703a43095f0501494a.jpg

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That's your response? No denial that any of that stuff is actually happening then?

 

Around 2.3 million Venezuelans have left the country over the past few years. That’s about 7 percent of the country’s population.

According to the U.N.,*there has been a 900 percent increase*in Venezuelan nationals living abroad in South America.

 

Colombia has received the largest number of Venezuelans. This year,*the Colombian government estimated*that there were 870,093 Venezuelans in the country, over 45,000 of whom have expired visas or entered without authorization.

 

 

So yes millions is accurate although even if it were hundreds of thousands the point would be the same. c4baa665df7ce1703a43095f0501494a.jpg

 

Time for regime change in Poland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37183733

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-demographics-poland/poland-counts-the-cost-of-losing-millions-of-its-workers-idUKKCN0JJ0KT20141205

Edited by Jonnyboy
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The fact you think that's in any way comparable means you are either incredibly thick, a troll or simply want to trot anything out to avoid facing up to the horrifying consequences of far left governments.
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The fact you think that's in any way comparable means you are either incredibly thick, a troll or simply want to trot anything out to avoid facing up to the horrifying consequences of far left governments.

 

Go back to insulting Dianne Abbott, it suits you better than faking concern for economic Venezuelan migrants.

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Go back to insulting Dianne Abbott, it suits you better than faking concern for economic Venezuelan migrants.
I'll assume that's the third option then. The radical left are incapable of any sort of criticism of one of their own. You must clearly prefer the communist utopia of North Korea to those indulgent capitalist pigs in the south. Who cares if Kim has labour camps the size of California as long as he's signed up to bash the fash right?
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Given the responses above to the initial post. Is Venezuela (still) a model society to look up to?

 

Or those who think not just right wing scaremongering scum?

Why are you talking about the failings of Venezuelan far left policies when America has done something bad? This isn't the place for discussions like this.
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I'll assume that's the third option then. The radical left are incapable of any sort of criticism of one of their own. You must clearly prefer the communist utopia of North Korea to those indulgent capitalist pigs in the south. Who cares if Kim has labour camps the size of California as long as he's signed up to bash the fash right?

 

We're not talking about North Korea, stay on topic, where are the Venezuelan labour camps? The US prison system has plenty I note.

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You've conveniently missed out the rather large countries of China and Turkey also recognising the electoral process.

 

Those bastions of democracy China (currently imprisoning and torturing millions of Muslim Uigurs) and Turkey (currently imprisoning and torturing real and mostly imagined opponents of Erdogan). So that MUST mean the election was totally kosher. So Venezuela's own national assembly was wrong? The Lima Group of Latin American countries was wrong? The EU and the UN were wrong (not to mention Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch)?

 

Which make this "coalition of the willing" rather larger than the one backing Bush's nightmarish invasion of Iraq which no doubt you were fully behind.

 

Oh was I? And yet I found myself on the million-strong march in 2003 against the Iraq war? Your cretinous cultism leads you into this kind of nonsense. Anyone on the left who opposes your idol is by definition a Blairite red Tory.

 

Just a coincidence that Venezuela has even more oil than Iraq obviously nothing to do with why Trump is so keen to enact "regime change."

You've obviously no problem with hundreds of thousands more people dying in some bloody civil conflict. What a man of the people.

 

I have every problem with 'hundreds of thousands more people dying' and I would be wholly opposed to any illegal action by the US to invade Venezuela, regardless of the motive. Again, your cultism blinds you to the possibility that anyone outside the cult could possibly object to the human tragedies of war and conflict. (Unlike you, I've seen the results up close, many times, including in South America, East Timor, the Middle East and South Asia).

 

What I do support is the right of Venezuelans to self-determination in free and fair elections. Why don't you?

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We're not talking about North Korea, stay on topic, where are the Venezuelan labour camps? The US prison system has plenty I note.
There's children dying of hunger, the average weight of a Venezuelan has fallen by twenty pounds, currency in world of warcraft is worth more than the Venezuelan currency, there have been numerous extrajudicial killings of hundreds, law and order has pretty much broken down, the ruling class have grotesque displays of wealth whilst their citizens die from preventable diseases but that's entirely irrelevant because America has its own failings. Just listen to yourself.
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Those bastions of democracy China (currently imprisoning and torturing millions of Muslim Uigurs) and Turkey (currently imprisoning and torturing real and mostly imagined opponents of Erdogan). So that MUST mean the election was totally kosher. So Venezuela's own national assembly was wrong? The Lima Group of Latin American countries was wrong? The EU and the UN were wrong (not to mention Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch)?

 

 

 

Oh was I? And yet I found myself on the million-strong march in 2003 against the Iraq war? Your cretinous cultism leads you into this kind of nonsense. Anyone on the left who opposes your idol is by definition a Blairite red Tory.

 

 

 

I have every problem with 'hundreds of thousands more people dying' and I would be wholly opposed to any illegal action by the US to invade Venezuela, regardless of the motive. Again, your cultism blinds you to the possibility that anyone outside the cult could possibly object to the human tragedies of war and conflict. (Unlike you, I've seen the results up close, many times, including in South America, East Timor, the Middle East and South Asia).

 

What I do support is the right of Venezuelans to self-determination in free and fair elections. Why don't you?

 

I certainly do and so does JC. Having some non elected stooge declare himself the new president only serves to antagonise and destabilise. I hope everybody on here can agree on that.

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Additionally, do you see a pattern between the economic policies pursued by the likes of Hungary, North Korea, Cuba, Romania, Venezuela and the abject poverty and corruption in their countries whilst they were enacting these systems?

 

You mean the fact they have all been subjected to crippling international economic sanctions designed to de-stabilise their governments?

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You mean the fact they have all been subjected to crippling international economic sanctions designed to de-stabilise their governments?

 

Oh yes that's definitely the only common link! :lol: Those poor innocent North Korean and Venezuelan leaderships. If only they hadn't been sanctioned by those evil Capitalist they'd be busy enjoying the fruits of their communist utopias by now.

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Oh yes that's definitely the only common link! :lol: Those poor innocent North Korean and Venezuelan leaderships. If only they hadn't been sanctioned by those evil Capitalist they'd be busy enjoying the fruits of their communist utopias by now.

 

I made no such claim, and I'm not going to try and claim that those regimes would have been completely successful without foreign interference either.

 

But if you think the current situation in Venezuela is 100% the fault of the Maduro regime and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the US cannot stand the fact there is an oil-rich country almost on its doorstep, operating under a socialist government, then you're living in a dreamworld.

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I made no such claim, and I'm not going to try and claim that those regimes would have been completely successful without foreign interference either.

 

But if you think the current situation in Venezuela is 100% the fault of the Maduro regime and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the US cannot stand the fact there is an oil-rich country almost on its doorstep, operating under a socialist government, then you're living in a dreamworld.

 

That would probably be Obama’s fault then, wouldn’t it?

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I made no such claim, and I'm not going to try and claim that those regimes would have been completely successful without foreign interference either.

 

But if you think the current situation in Venezuela is 100% the fault of the Maduro regime and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the US cannot stand the fact there is an oil-rich country almost on its doorstep, operating under a socialist government, then you're living in a dreamworld.

And I didn't say that did I so you're literally inventing things I said. What I asked jonnyboy is if he thought maduro has done anything wrong and if he can see a common link between economic ruination and communism considering how literally every country that tries it ends up killing their citizens abd destroying their economy. Why you jumped to me supposedly saying it was 100% Maduro I have no idea.

 

My answers quite simply are that 1) Maduro bears quite a lot of responsibility for the mess and 2) communist regimes have an almost perfect record of failure. It doesn't work.

Edited by hypochondriac
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You mean the fact they have all been subjected to crippling international economic sanctions designed to de-stabilise their governments?

 

What 'crippling economic sanctions' are these exactly?

 

If you mean the US oil embargo, that's been in place for all of a week - as Andrew Neil, in skewering Ken Livingston, has pointed out.

 

Other than that there are sanctions against a tiny handful of top Venezuelan officials identified as mass looters of the country's wealth. Other than that, what?

 

How do these sanctions against individuals account for inflation of 1.7million percent and an utterly devastated economy, in which the Maduro regime has reduced the minimum sage from $350 a month to $7 a month?

 

And put yourself in Venezuelans' shoes for a few moments - can you imagine surviving this (courtesy of the excellent Alex Crawford)?

 

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  • 2 months later...

Thought provoking, as in, "What kind of cretin believes everything they read online"

Trump Has Murdered Over 40,000 Venezuelans With Sanctions

What was worse than this was the US faking the moon landing...

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