Saints 0 Watford 2 - Match & Meltdown

Watford. At home. And we play like a timid away side. I'm not a critical poster generally but that was utter crap. Biggest disappointment, of many, was that we didn't compete. Where are the winners in that side?

That was the biggest disappointment. It wasn't like Watford peppered the goal with shot after shot, it was our own problems that cost us. And on paper, at least, we should at the very least be able to match teams like that.

I know we have not played it but it looks like we should play a 3-5-2, Berty and Cedric look like our only threats out wide but they have been reluctant to bomb forward this season,I would like to see

Forster

Stephens VVD Hoedt

Cedric Lemina Davis Romeu Berty

Austin. Gabbi

I reckon we would do well with that

Well yes it was but we have simply replaced Puel with like for like.

No we haven't. Like him or loath him, Puels side played with a style. They were coached properly, there was a pattern to the play even if you didn't like the particular pattern. Puel sent his side out to play in a certain way & they played that way. Today was just a mess, no pattern, no structure. It was as if the manager picked the positions and players just went out and played in them. There was absolutely no coherent pattern at all. Shocking

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I know we have not played it but it looks like we should play a 3-5-2, Berty and Cedric look like our only threats out wide but they have been reluctant to bomb forward this season,I would like to see

 

Forster

Stephens VVD Hoedt

Cedric Lemina Davis Romeu Berty

Austin. Gabbi

 

I reckon we would do well with that

Anything as long as we have 2 up front.

The midfield was terrible today and created nothing. The long ball up to Shane Long (as we often played up Koeman) was effective. Gabbi and Long up front for me and a lot of our problems will go away.

1 up front seems to be the latest fashion but until we get a target man, it needs to go. Use the players we have correctly ffs!

No we haven't. Like him or loath him, Puels side played with a style. They were coached properly, there was a pattern to the play even if you didn't like the particular pattern. Puel sent his side out to play in a certain way & they played that way. Today was just a mess, no pattern, no structure. It was as if the manager picked the positions and players just went out and played in them. There was absolutely no coherent pattern at all. Shocking

 

 

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Spot on

Agree with a lot of what's been said.

Whole thing was awful. My daughter wanted to go home after about 30 minutes.

Players look like they think if they keep doing the same tippy tippy football in a lethargic fashion somehow magically we'll make a breakthrough. We must be so easy to come and play against.

Forster looks like he has the agility of a sloth crossed with a rhino filled with Botox. Too many lightweight players doing nothing in midfield.

..but MP is starting to look like a bit a tactical dunce. I know JWP divides opinion, but don't think anyone would play him in that 'position'.. even more against a team that are really physical.

Someone on here earlier suggested 442 with McQueen adding some physicality on the left, which isn't a bad shout..

Gabbi is crying out for a partner, his movement in the first half was pretty good, going inside right/inside left.. and teh ball just goes out to the wing... and then teh winger turns back and plays back to defence.

Only minor positive I could grab was Cedric put in a decent shift and Hoedt look pretty decent to me.. (maybe we shoudl have sold VVD and spent the money on a creative player with some strength.

Would be a mistake to say that Watford simply overpowered us, though the difference in strength and pace was significant. Chalobah looked a vastly more accomplished footballer than anyone in our side, while Richarlison and Carillo both showed better touch and movement (especially movement) than any of our attacking players. They looked a better organised, stronger team, but their best individuals also put ours in the shade today.

 

Lemina will add dynamism to the midfield, but we'll still be a comparatively slow, weak side even when he starts.

Since you've mentioned Richarlison, it reminded me that I had forgotten to mention what a diving f*cking cheat he is. How many free kicks did he con the ref into awarding him for going down at the merest contact? He reminded me of our number 11.

Missed the match, and after the reaction on here, avoided the highlights. Pretty happy about both.

Worrying result, I'm not sure we've had two consecutive home performances like that for quite a while now? Certainly not happened often in the post-administration era, if at all.

 

Not sure we're quite at 04/05 season levels yet, but it is beginning to have that sort of feel to it already. Hopefully though we can turn the corner and the goals will begin to flow.

 

Ironically that year we also won our second league game 3-2 v Blackburn - took the lead, cocked it up and won the game with a last min penalty...sound familiar?

And sacked a decent manager and replaced him with a clown.

How much longer do I have read about the Tadic/Redmond/Ward-Prowse/Boufal conundrum? They are ALL hopeless. Davis just about gets a let-off, but I still don't think he is good enough any longer for an aspiring Premier League team. Long provided the only threat today, everything's relative of course. Austin did about as much as Gabbiadini, ie zero. Poor Manolo - this is an international standard footballer, what must he be thinking? It is all very well banging on about the need for better players, but they ain't coming, the squad is all Pellegrino has. So ditch the formation which doesn't suit the personnel available - why copy Puel's much-derided mistakes? If you can't score, you can't win; if you can't score and can't keep clean sheets regularly, you are going to get relegated - you cannae change the laws of mathematics.

I too sense a deep discord in the ranks. Bertrand seemed to give up after 60 minutes, Redmond gave the manager a mouthful (and should be dropped as a consequence of that alone, never mind for his useless performance). Romeu had a stinker and terminators are not supposed to have feelings, so things must be bad.

Is Hoedt Stephens' big brother? They look quite similar and both clearly know how to play football, but both seem to suffer the same whiff of brain-f@rt. Forster...

Cedric came out smelling, if not of roses, at least not of horse. He was outstanding in defence today and added something to his inevitable price-tag, he continues to improve from an already high level.

And Watford? Big, strong, fit, organised and playing for each other. They didn't weave our pretty midfield and back to the keeper patterns, but they are not paid for macramé. What they did was play direct, aggressive and successful football, some of their stuff was genuinely good to watch, helped in no small part by a schoolboy opposition.

Give it time? Give it a rest! Effectively this rut is more than 6 months old and is only getting deeper; formation needs to change, non-performers need to be dropped. Someone please at least give the team a semblance of a plan, for today I saw none.

I assume that comment is a send up....he touched the ball once in the first half before being substituted.

You really do have an agenda against the boy, don't you. He was not the worst player on the pitch, and had more than one touch, Davis was far worse. I'd love to know how he has wronged you.

You really do have an agenda against the boy, don't you. He was not the worst player on the pitch, and had more than one touch, Davis was far worse. I'd love to know how he has wronged you.

How are you getting on over in Perth Ginge? No, I like the lad from what you cam make of interviews and the like. It's all about performance on the pitch for me. Did you see the game yesterday? If you did, you would have seen he was completely out of the game, and literally, only had one or two touches. Davis wasn't great either, but he was much more involved. JWP really was a passenger yesterday, and needed replacing - you don't agree?

I thought it took a deflection.

Nope no deflection, I was right in line of sight of it. Forster was snoozing defence was clustered in a lump, matey took a swing at the ball at what was pretty much half an open goal.

Quite honestly if you could apply a soundtrack to today's game, Saints played with Acker Bilk Stranger on the Shore as their backing track all game, Watfords soundtrack was pure Ron Godwin, first half 633 Squadron, second half Battle of Britain theme!! (Spotify it kids)

Someone needs to break Tadic in training so that Pellegino has absolutely zero chance if using him as an option, him falling over in the box holding his knee was fûçkîñg pathetic.

Redmond needs to be given similar treatment, he takes no fecker on, bottles it and passes backwards then moans at everyone on the pitch, second half plenty of options in the box and the fool just stops.

The only players who seeming put in a shift were Stephens, Wesley, Cedric, Bertrand, and Davis who put in a mega shift in the internationals over the past week yet still plays a full 90 mins armed with his broom and fire extinguisher. Today's game was crying out for Lemina who was pulled off on 60 mins (?) midweek to replace JWP (who as much as I like him was a fish up a tree today) slide Davo further up towards the front.

Listening to Solent and the Pellegrino interview, last year the "interesting possibilities" drove you up the wall, but he held his hand up to the deficiencies and failings, Pellegrino just made you think......... What??????!!!!!!!!!!!!

The day was summed up nicely by Mrs JBS when we got home and she asked for a G&T without the usual instruction for me not to use too much gin.

Honestly think the club are taking the **** when they post those midweek videos of shooting practice

You support your team through thick and thin.

UP THE SAINTS

As I said on another thread, that was as poor a performance of aimless long ball football as I have seen since Branfoot days. Only the away defeat to Midget Land gets close.

 

We have sacked a manager who produces some boring but usually undefeated displays at home, and some hood displays away, took us to Wembley without conceding a goal and finished eight. We all understand why, some will agree and others like me disagree.

 

However what is clear is that this manager has made an awful start. We have won once in five games, stoppage time penalty against ten men, been outplayed by Wolves Reserves, outclassed by ten men in the second half against Wet Spam, outclassed in first half by Udders and outclassed throughout by Watford today.

 

MP is being paid big bucks, we paid compensation to poor Puel, and MP has days and days now of no midweek football to distract from his coaching skills. Massive uplift is expected on last season with a dozen or so fewer matches to navigate.

 

Only if you were not at the five games so far can you be unconcerned. We are yet to play anyone who finished above us last season. Unless there is huge change we will be in a relegation battle. I hope he turns it around, and he has a fully fit squad to do so with. But the early signs are very worrying. I could see what Puel was doing, not always popular but it was clear. This season so far is all over the shop

Decent managers sacked unfairly and replaced by disasters. History repeating itself?

Nicholl -> Br*nf**t

Luggy -> Wigley

Claude -> MP?

Pellegrino on borrowed time and under serious pressure now to show he has the ability to bring anything new to the team to reverse the regression under Puel. His failure to change the system and play at least 2 up front is the first worry. The second is that the players seem to have even less idea of how to play in Claude's system than they did last year. Because it IS still Claude's system. Pellegrino needs to change it - at the moment he is showing signs of being as stubborn as Puel. Good luck with that.

Pellegrino on borrowed time and under serious pressure now to show he has the ability to bring anything new to the team to reverse the regression under Puel. His failure to change the system and play at least 2 up front is the first worry. The second is that the players seem to have even less idea of how to play in Claude's system than they did last year. Because it IS still Claude's system. Pellegrino needs to change it - at the moment he is showing signs of being as stubborn as Puel. Good luck with that.

is it claude's system or is it the system claude was given?

Pellegrino on borrowed time and under serious pressure now to show he has the ability to bring anything new to the team to reverse the regression under Puel. His failure to change the system and play at least 2 up front is the first worry. The second is that the players seem to have even less idea of how to play in Claude's system than they did last year. Because it IS still Claude's system. Pellegrino needs to change it - at the moment he is showing signs of being as stubborn as Puel. Good luck with that.

Claude's system was the 4-4-2 diamond that people complained about and wanted him to revert, and interestingly people are now suggesting that same 4-4-2.

is it claude's system or is it the system claude was given?

Very good question.

Time for Les to go.

Pellegrino on borrowed time and under serious pressure now to show he has the ability to bring anything new to the team to reverse the regression under Puel. His failure to change the system and play at least 2 up front is the first worry. The second is that the players seem to have even less idea of how to play in Claude's system than they did last year. Because it IS still Claude's system. Pellegrino needs to change it - at the moment he is showing signs of being as stubborn as Puel. Good luck with that.

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is it claude's system or is it the system claude was given?

Its called the 'Southampton way.'

Huff, Puff and score **** all.

Can't wait for the September goals of the month competition where they will probably end up with some under 18's tap ins or even funnier some goals scored in training.

He tried 2 up top at the end of the match yesterday and again it was awful. Long and Austin are clearly not the answer to any of our problems - what shocks me is that we did nothing about this over the summer.

 

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Can't wait for the September goals of the month competition where they will probably end up with some under 18's tap ins or even funnier some goals scored in training.

Hahaha.

Marco Silva was there for the taking....

Watford were far more organised, we were a mess. There seemed to be some vague plan to get the ball forward quickly but often the passes were aimless, or hit to an isolated Gabbi who would have little chance to do anything with the ball.

I thought our best period of the game was just after half time when Tadic came on and we finally got some possession but this didn't last long, they scored again and we never looked like getting close to scoring.

Tadic's dive for a penalty in front of us was embarrassing. Rolling around holding his knee then getting up and limping for 30 seconds didn't fool anyone.

Its called the 'Southampton way.'

Huff, Puff and score **** all.

 

Can't wait for the September goals of the month competition where they will probably end up with some under 18's tap ins or even funnier some goals scored in training.

That cheered me up after yesterday's debacle.

Early days but already MP looks like Puel MkII.

Can't just blame the manager though, a lot of our players aren't half as good as they think they are. Bertrand, Cedric, Tadic for example seem to think they are too good for us, well it's about time they started showing it on the pitch as right now they look bang average. Several players need dropping and a change of formation also needed.

No we haven't. Like him or loath him, Puels side played with a style. They were coached properly, there was a pattern to the play even if you didn't like the particular pattern. Puel sent his side out to play in a certain way & they played that way. Today was just a mess, no pattern, no structure. It was as if the manager picked the positions and players just went out and played in them. There was absolutely no coherent pattern at all. Shocking

 

 

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Agree completely with this, unfortunately Puels style just didn't suit the PL. Build up play was far to slow and predictable. Unless you've got exceptional creative players, PL sides will stick 2 banks for 4 and hit you on the counter.

For me, if you're a team of our size/ability you either have to pres high and counter quickly I.e poch, or sit deeper have good orginaisation and counter with pace I.e Koeman (and Leicester when then won the league)

Marco Silva was there for the taking....

The worse thing is that we spoke to him, then dismissed him. You've got to ask why. Was he not happy with only being a 'coach' and relying on the black box? Did he not want to play the way Les see's us? I don't know, but early days would suggest it was a mistake.

Agree completely with this, unfortunately Puels style just didn't suit the PL. Build up play was far to slow and predictable. Unless you've got exceptional creative players, PL sides will stick 2 banks for 4 and hit you on the counter.

 

For me, if you're a team of our size/ability you either have to pres high and counter quickly I.e poch, or sit deeper have good orginaisation and counter with pace I.e Koeman (and Leicester when then won the league)

Wasn't this something Pellegrino was meant to bring in ?

The worse thing is that we spoke to him, then dismissed him. You've got to ask why. Was he not happy with only being a 'coach' and relying on the black box? Did he not want to play the way Les see's us? I don't know, but early days would suggest it was a mistake.

I wasn't convinced he was the answer, but on yesterday's showing he certainly had a team set up, and players knowing their role and performing efficiently as a team. Compared to our shambles.

The worse thing is that we spoke to him, then dismissed him. You've got to ask why. Was he not happy with only being a 'coach' and relying on the black box? Did he not want to play the way Les see's us? I don't know, but early days would suggest it was a mistake.

If we had swapped managers and kept the same teams yesterday Watford would still have won they were bigger, stronger and faster all over the pitch our team has become incredibly small and light weight teams just bully us.

Wasn't this something Pellegrino was meant to bring in ?

It was suggested but there has never been any evidence of us doing so.

Braced myself today to watch Motd , well usual defensive faults allowing long range shots plus Forster with his unconvincing dives , seems he doesn't think he can save it so better put a show of trying to.

Meanwhile Spurs walked through Everton's "defence" inc Martina and Morgan as though it wasn't there ! Spurs could of had a several more as well .

Bournemouth 0 points after 4 games , imagine if that were us !!

Yesterday was an utter turd of a performance, the worst I've seen for years, even compared to last season. Reminded me of the days of the hapless Wigley.

From the first minute Watford were allowed to take the initiative.

Too may issues to address throughout the team - Forster (not sure you could blame him for the goals, but whenever its on target there's a high probability of conceding. Seeing him dive is like timber being felled). Betrand looks a shadow of himself. Midfield - no bite, Gabbiadini is isolated seemingly playing the match in a parallel universe from any creative player. Redmond - sh!t again, Tadic and Boufal - nothing more to add over what has been written by many on here. JWP - the enigma continues.

Seeing the Keegan era shirts is wonderful, but it does build expectations as I am expecting to see the commitment of Nick Holmes and David Armstrong, not to mention the guile of and skill of Ball etc. When Redmond gets on the ball, my old mind reverts to looks like Danny Wallace.... but Redmond isn't a fraction of the player Danny Wallace was, never mind Rodney.

Atmosphere again poor, although difficult after such a dire performance.Noticed dozens of Chinese students spending much of the game filming it and taking selfies. hope at least one of them can tell Nelly on Facebook, Twitter or wherever that "this is sh!t".

Braced myself today to watch Motd , well usual defensive faults allowing long range shots plus Forster with his unconvincing dives , seems he doesn't think he can save it so better put a show of trying to.

Meanwhile Spurs walked through Everton's "defence" inc Martina and Morgan as though it wasn't there ! Spurs could of had a several more as well .

Bournemouth 0 points after 4 games , imagine if that were us !!

He goes through the motions, or just stoops slightly outstretching an arm with a facial expression to say ' oh, I couldn't do anything about that...' Every other club seems to find a f^cker who can...

Wasn't this something Pellegrino was meant to bring in ?

Wishful thinking by people who think all Argies are related to Biesla -not to mention Pellegrino rhymes with Pochettino. Hell they even have the same initials.

If anything, Pellegrino seems more like a Poundland Benitez.

He goes through the motions, or just stoops slightly outstretching an arm with a facial expression to say ' oh, I couldn't do anything about that...' Every other club seems to find a f^cker who can...

As for Forster, I watched last night his position setting himself up for any shot. He was only about 4ft from hs goal line when the ball was struck. Surely it should be a case of him to be 5 or 6 feet from his line. This would improve his chance to get to the shots at the extreme of his reach

If we had swapped managers and kept the same teams yesterday Watford would still have won they were bigger, stronger and faster all over the pitch our team has become incredibly small and light weight teams just bully us.

That's all If and buts, but it's something that I don't disagree with.

From what I've seen of Silva, he's a very good manager, who organises teams well and plays at a high tempo. He seemed the natural replacement of Puel, but Les and Co saw otherwise. Personally I think we put all our eggs in the Tuchel basket (that's just speculation on what I've been told.. I.e us talking to both Silva and Tuchel).

Recruitment has been poor for a number of windows now. This summer on paper looked alright, but we failed to address our lack of creativity.

Am I getting old or was the music before Kick off yesterday stupidly loud, couldn't even hear the person next to me to speak

Aside from that worst performance seen in a long time, frustrating rubbish. And Forster ffs

Didn't post last night as was drowning sorrows.

In the cold, sober, light of day.....

Firstly, Watford were good. Stronger than us, sharper than us, better organised than us, more committed than us. They deserved it. And it asks a lot of questions of MP.

On our individual performances:

Forster - hesitant, taking no pressure off the defence, probably should have saved at least the second. He now seems even more reluctant to come for high balls. Time for him to be rested.

I thought the back four all had decent games. Good start for Hoedt, didn't do much wrong. Stephens made some important tackles and interceptions and I wonder if he can convert to DM. Cedric and Bertrand got forward, with little support inside.

Romeu - not his greatest game, but it was hard work for him as Davis looked tired and ineffective and provided little support. Neither of them were close to getting in a block for either goal - in fact JWP was closest to getting in the way of the first. They struggled against a strong midfield to get hold of the ball and retain it, let alone distribute effectively. Hopefully Lemina will improve things - I was hoping he'd come on at half time.

JWP also was largely anonymous. I'm normally prepared to defend him, bit without supply he didn't work to get the ball.

But the huge problems were Boufal and Redmond. They both seem to be playing for their own glory, not the team. Boufal in particular runs into dead ends, doesn't get his head up to look for a pass. His teammates noticeably don't seem able to anticipate what he's going to do, and look like they're not expecting a pass. His one good moment, when he got to the byline was spoilt when he then blindly cut the ball back too deep, behind Gabbiadini. He was also very weak in challenges. When Hoedt headed the ball out just before their second goal, when it dropped, Boufal was brushed out of the way like he didn't exist, then made no effort to recover. And I'm not convinced game time will improve him.

Much of that also applies to Redmond, except that he has less skill. He frequently lost the ball and when the deflected shot fell to him near the end he blasted it into the side netting when Tadic and Gabbiadini were both unmarked six yards out. He just didn't look. He is a very average player who for some reason keeps getting picked.

Gabbiadini looks very dispirited, and I'm not surprised. No service and he's not a natural target man, so that won't work, especially with no movement around him. In his early games he looked sharp, with really good movement pulling defenders all over the place. I'm worried that he now looks slow and disinterested.

Of the subs, Tadic improved things, but he still has awful moments. For example, ignoring a chance to shoot, turning hopeless circles then falling down embarrassingly. Sorry, but I don't think Austin added any threat. Long, on the other hand, immediately brought some energy and a different problem, epitomised by chasing down a lost cause and winning a free kick. I accept his finishing frailty, but he brings pace.

One major problem is that we have Cedric and Bertrand getting forward on the wings, but Redmond and Boufal are mainly trying to occupy that same space, but less effectively. We have zero threat through the middle.

Whether the solution is a change of formation, for example to 3-5-2 or 3-4-3, or a fundamental change in the personnel, what is clear is you can't just keep on doing the same things and hoping that, miraculously, it'll start working.

I'd like to see a front four of Tadic, Davis, Long and Gabbiadini next week, but that will no doubt be ridiculed. But Boufal and Redmond need to know they need to make far more of a team contribution.

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We have a decent team on paper. Something needs to change.

Braced myself today to watch Motd , well usual defensive faults allowing long range shots plus Forster with his unconvincing dives , seems he doesn't think he can save it so better put a show of trying to.

Meanwhile Spurs walked through Everton's "defence" inc Martina and Morgan as though it wasn't there ! Spurs could of had a several more as well .

Bournemouth 0 points after 4 games , imagine if that were us !!

Martina must have some dirt on the Koemans ... it's weird. I like the guy, but come on ... wonder what Everton fans think!

I have never rated our goalkeeping coach, since I watched him go through the motions pre match with our keepers.As I stated at the time, he was more interested in brushing his golden locks off his face than concentrate on the keeper drills.

As for Forster, I watched last night his position setting himself up for any shot. He was only about 4ft from hs goal line when the ball was struck. Surely it should be a case of him to be 5 or 6 feet from his line. This would improve his chance to get to the shots at the extreme of his reach

It must have been you that wrote the summary of the pre-match GK ritual last season drawing attention to Watson's constant preening of his locks.

Most telling thing is probably who Koeman didn't want to take with him, Dave Watson, FF, & JWP. Christ, he even signed Martina again.

Strange how Steklenburg looked an inspired GK last season at the Everton.

We have a decent team on paper. Something needs to change.

I think that is the mistake people fell into last season its a bloody average squad made worse by, on the evidence of the games played so far, of a lack of a discernible style or plan.

I was sat in an Irish bar in Caleta, Fuertaventura watching that utter guff. Everything far too similar to last season. Maybe too early to say but revolution may have been needed in the summer not evolution. MoPe needs to get it right quick. Too many dropped points from easier games means we'll scrabbling around for points against tougher teams later in the season.

Get VVD back and play

McCarthy

Yoshida VVD Hoedt

Cedric Lemina Romeu Bertrand

Tadic

Long Gabbiadini

or something to that effect. Yes that means 5 defenders on the pitch but we get to see Cedric and Ryan as proper wing backs.

I'm off the United game in a couple of weeks. We'll get ripped to shreds if we play like that.

I have never rated our goalkeeping coach, since I watched him go through the motions pre match with our keepers.As I stated at the time, he was more interested in brushing his golden locks off his face than concentrate on the keeper drills.

As for Forster, I watched last night his position setting himself up for any shot. He was only about 4ft from hs goal line when the ball was struck. Surely it should be a case of him to be 5 or 6 feet from his line. This would improve his chance to get to the shots at the extreme of his reach

Is it just me or does he never even make it to the posts? He seems to just fall to the side rather than push off towards the bottom corners. It's not even a case of him not making it in time because he doesn't even make the distance to stop it if its aimed in the bottom corner. I just don't get it...

Martina must have some dirt on the Koemans ... it's weird. I like the guy, but come on ... wonder what Everton fans think!

I heard one on 606 last night who was absolutely slating him. I chuckled because everything he said was true.

Well, I went for free yesterday. It was almost as turgid as the wolves game. In fact, it was probably on par with it. We have no creative threat whatsoever. We have no height. Every goal kick was aimed for Bertrand, which was then almost every time lost, handing the ball back to Watford.

Having Redmond/ Boufoul on the pitch should mean we have some attacking intent. Yet going forward we are utterly clueless. We have no idea how to break teams down and have no plan B. Watford aren't world beaters, but they had a plan and they executed it perfectly.

I think Davis should be dropped, Lemina should have played and think MP really needs to consider a formation change - Give Gabba some support up top, to go 90 mins without a shot on target in the top flight of professional football is in my view a disgrace.