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Thread: 1st team and u23's gash

  1. #1

    Default 1st team and u23's gash

    Think it's time the owners/chairman/Reed whoever, needs to take a serious look at our club and the way it's going forward right now.

    Is it the formations?
    The coaching staff?
    Problem scoring goals at any level?

    IMHO we should be contacting top ex premiership pro's and getting them on board to work with Pellegrino and offloading some of the rubbish we are currently employing.

  2. #2

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    Yep let's not reserve venting our anger just for the first team, let's give some of the youth lads a taste of what's to come as well.

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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Yep let's not reserve venting our anger just for the first team, let's give some of the youth lads a taste of what's to come as well.

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
    That's not what he's suggesting is it you moron.

    The OP has a point. Something behind the scenes needs to change as the common denominator is the coaching staff

  4. #4

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    Youth teams get beaten sometimes, too many factors, players at different levels of maturity/experience. Younger age groups are more important.

    What's worrying here is that McCarthy, VVD and Bednarek started and from the highlights look to have been pretty poor. We've got too many keeper signings wrong, McCarthy has never offered good competition, usually injured and not a very good keeper anyway. Bednarek just seems a bizarre signing. Sign a low quality 5th choice CB rather than an attacker??

  5. #5

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    Worst case scenario: We are Sunderland from last season (without Defoe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by adriansfc View Post
    Youth teams get beaten sometimes, too many factors, players at different levels of maturity/experience. Younger age groups are more important.

    What's worrying here is that McCarthy, VVD and Bednarek started and from the highlights look to have been pretty poor. We've got too many keeper signings wrong, McvCarthy has never offered good competition, usually injured and not a very good keeper anyway. Bednarek just seems a bizarre signing. Sign a low quality 5th choice CB rather than an attacker??
    A factor in that could be Dave Watson once saying that he would stay as long as Fraser was still with us............ very cosy comfy slippers!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    Worst case scenario: We are Sunderland from last season (without Defoe).
    The way we stumbled around on Saturday that thought cantered through my mind.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    Worst case scenario: We are Sunderland from last season (without Defoe).
    Heresy. We finished sixth once, so we're now incapable of being relegated ever again.

  9. #9

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    Where is PEH???

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Show me the mané View Post
    That's not what he's suggesting is it you moron.

    The OP has a point. Something behind the scenes needs to change as the common denominator is the coaching staff
    Youth teams are there to learn, they are apprentices, they will make mistakes and lose matches. The coaching staff are not the common denominator. The teams have different coaching staff and are at different stages of their footballing development and learning. Results at any youth level are not the be all and end all, its performance and progression that are important.

    Yes there are problems with the first team at the moment but it's a bit simplistic to point purely at the coaching staff, and stupid to cite the youth in such a negative post. Moron.

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  11. #11

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    The Academy's been going downhill, months before relegation from the PL2. Been thinking about it for a while now. Too many defeats across the board and lack of goals from U18 to first team level. Something needs to change.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Bates View Post
    The Academy's been going downhill, months before relegation from the PL2. Been thinking about it for a while now. Too many defeats across the board and lack of goals from U18 to first team level. Something needs to change.
    In regards to defeats, not so much first team but certainly lack of goals.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    Worst case scenario: We are Sunderland from last season (without Defoe).
    Having seen Sunderland this season, that would be very worrying, they look like a side that could go again this year.

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    Academy has taken a nose dive since Jaidi took over !

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by simo View Post
    Academy has taken a nose dive since Jaidi took over !
    How do you go from an African representive (a job created by the club) to the youth coach?
    It's like someone high up is looking after his very own people.

  16. #16

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    The Under 23's have won 2 league games in the past YEAR, and one of those was against Reading a few weeks back who had mainly under 18's on the pitch.

    The games they are losing are convincing defeats too. I'm sure Les Reed thinks Hunter/Jaidi etc are great guys and good coaches blah blah blah but surely at some point he needs to sit down with them and ask 'what the hell is going on'?

    After Saturday, same with the first team too.

    At least with Cortese, as much of a bastard that he was, he didn't accept sub-standard performances on a regular basis. He created an 'on-edge' atmosphere but if you weren't good enough, you were out. Too many players appear to be 'comfortable' at the moment.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Youth teams are there to learn, they are apprentices, they will make mistakes and lose matches. The coaching staff are not the common denominator. The teams have different coaching staff and are at different stages of their footballing development and learning. Results at any youth level are not the be all and end all, its performance and progression that are important.

    Yes there are problems with the first team at the moment but it's a bit simplistic to point purely at the coaching staff, and stupid to cite the youth in such a negative post. Moron.

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
    This was not a 'youth' match..... !
    The soft peddling approach preached by some on here is the approach which is steadily getting us into a right mess...
    The 'everything is fine' phylosophy will and is putting us in danger of a dangerous slide.
    Everything is 'Evidently' not fine and dandy.....
    We have a dodgy keeper and and even more dodgy understudy who is in any case mostly injured, we seem to have a conceited thought in the club that we are good - we are no where near good and the direction of travel is South.....
    Our recruitment has been poor for a while now. Our reserves are nowhere near good enough to be near the first team and losing to a very average Champioship club reserve team only just coming out of a financial crisis...
    We are far too relaxed about the whole thing born out by the lethargic lack of effort and enterprise from the first team.
    Someone needs a rocket up their arse!

  18. #18

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    We are a club in freefall. There is no other way to dress it up.

    For whatever reason, the board have taken their eyes off the ball. I stll think pimping our best players out 3 summers in a row combined with giving very long contracts that do little to motivate high performance, has killed us.

    I also do not think we have the right personalities and experience in the right positions any more.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Bates View Post
    The Academy's been going downhill, months before relegation from the PL2. Been thinking about it for a while now. Too many defeats across the board and lack of goals from U18 to first team level. Something needs to change.
    I agree, watch a lot of our u23 games and we've been getting progressively worse for a while. Slight difference this year is we've opted to send a number of players out on loan, plus injuries to Hesketh and Sims. It's not just the fact we are losing on a regular basis, we're getting some proper beatings from teams that just look quicker, more physical and hungrier than us - something that is very similar to the first team.

  20. Default

    Its all been to comfortable IMHO. Targets and ambitions appear to have been weighted towards financial rather than performance driven and player and staff recruitment at all levels has been poor for a while.

    Club needs a decent shake up at all levels - do the new owners have ambitions? Or will they simply continue to milk the club for personal gains?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alpine_saint View Post
    We are a club in freefall. There is no other way to dress it up.

    For whatever reason, the board have taken their eyes off the ball. I stll think pimping our best players out 3 summers in a row combined with giving very long contracts that do little to motivate high performance, has killed us.

    I also do not think we have the right personalities and experience in the right positions any more.
    I warned of complacency setting in but I was lambasted by the posters wearing their rose tinted glasses! Well, we are on a downturn and it looks pretty steep. More worrying is that we have new owners who are imo here for the premier league and may well lack the patience to rebuild if we get relegated. Markus saved this club and there aren't many like him around.

  22. #22

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    Is this serious thread? Genuine question. I smiled at the first few contributions thinking it was a joke but it just went on a bit too long. Apologies if I'm missing some sort of inside joke.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mowgli View Post
    Is this serious thread? Genuine question. I smiled at the first few contributions thinking it was a joke but it just went on a bit too long. Apologies if I'm missing some sort of inside joke.
    Sadly it is mate, some people are falling over themselves in their excitement to post about how terrible we are... Why do some relish our failings so much

  24. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    Sadly it is mate, some people are falling over themselves in their excitement to post about how terrible we are... Why do some relish our failings so much
    Why do some blindly ignore them?.

  25. #25

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    The meltdown predicted when Cortese / half the first team left has finally come around, and that has to sit at the door of Les Reed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    The meltdown predicted when Cortese / half the first team left has finally come around, and that has to sit at the door of Les Reed.

    Lol there is no time limit on predictions then? If you predict a football team will, at some unspecifed stage in the future, not be as good as they once were you are pretty much guaranteed to be spot on...

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Lol there is no time limit on predictions then? If you predict a football team will, at some unspecifed stage in the future, not be as good as they once were you are pretty much guaranteed to be spot on...
    No, but we got very very lucky with the appointment of Koeman. It doesn't seem like that will happen again.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Billy View Post
    Why do some blindly ignore them?.
    No one is ignoring them at all, just not feeling the need to post with such glee about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    No one is ignoring them at all, just not feeling the need to post with such glee about it
    No one is gleeful, this situation sucks. It's just your bias that sees glee.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    No, but we got very very lucky with the appointment of Koeman. It doesn't seem like that will happen again.
    Is there anything positive with the club where we didn't get 'very, very lucky?' Perhaps now, when things are not so bright we've just got very, very unlucky?
    Last edited by Micky; 12-09-2017 at 09:48 AM.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Lol there is no time limit on predictions then? If you predict a football team will, at some unspecifed stage in the future, not be as good as they once were you are pretty much guaranteed to be spot on...
    This is the Christmas, Easter and Birthday that the dinlows on this forum have been waiting for for so very, very long. Let them enjoy it.

    I KNEW I WAS RIGHT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT.

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.

    Just the same as, well, no football club on earth, ever.

    Well, this is their moment. Their perfect moment. Let them enjoy it.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    No one is gleeful, this situation sucks. It's just your bias that sees glee.
    I have no bias, i can clearly see that things are not right but don`t feel the need to post the gloom on repeat like some..

    Tell me, why is it that when things are good that these "gleeful" poster do not post anywhere close to the amount they do when the opposite is true?

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    This is the Christmas, Easter and Birthday that the dinlows on this forum have been waiting for for so very, very long. Let them enjoy it.

    I KNEW I WAS RIGHT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT.

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.

    Just the same as, well, no football club on earth, ever.

    Well, this is their moment. Their perfect moment. Let them enjoy it.
    Exactly this. And please don't quote the old ambition thing - we are, and always have been ambitious, however ambition has to be measured in context with what we can afford as a club. Since ML / KL took control of the club we have shown nothing but ambition and life has been very good being a Saints supporter. However it's not quite as simple as progressing in terms of position year on year, football unfortunately does not work like that.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    I have no bias, i can clearly see that things are not right but don`t feel the need to post the gloom on repeat like some..

    Tell me, why is it that when things are good that these "gleeful" poster do not post anywhere close to the amount they do when the opposite is true?
    Probably because there is a lot more to discuss when things aren't right than when they are. A lot more issues of contention and analysis are warranted than if everything is working smoothly. It's pretty obvious.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Exactly this. And please don't quote the old ambition thing - we are, and always have been ambitious, however ambition has to be measured in context with what we can afford as a club. Since ML / KL took control of the club we have shown nothing but ambition and life has been very good being a Saints supporter. However it's not quite as simple as progressing in terms of position year on year, football unfortunately does not work like that.
    The thing that gets me is the idea that nothing is ever actually an achievement, it's just a platform that other achievements must then be delivered against without fail. Sixth to these people was never "brilliant, we've finished sixth" but dismissed as the new normal, the platform and now if we don't better that we've failed.

    There's occasional whines about Leicester on this forum, but I have absolutely no doubt that had we done what Leicester had done, then this forum last season would have been absolute misery about how we had the chance to join the elite but blew it and what a disaster and we didn't invest and push on and etc etc etc.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Probably because there is a lot more to discuss when things aren't right than when they are. A lot more issues of contention and analysis are warranted than if everything is working smoothly. It's pretty obvious.
    You are right but you know as well as i do that quite a few absolutely love it when they can bleat on, i don`t need to name them
    Last edited by ALWAYS_SFC; 12-09-2017 at 10:31 AM.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky View Post
    Is there anything positive with the club where we didn't get 'very, very lucky?' Perhaps now, when things are not so bright we've just got very, very unlucky?
    Nasty Nic put a very good recruitment team in place - That isn't luck I guess.

    Now they're gone, what do we have left? Our business model and success has been on great recruitment. We've not had that for a few years now.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    The thing that gets me is the idea that nothing is ever actually an achievement, it's just a platform that other achievements must then be delivered against without fail. Sixth to these people was never "brilliant, we've finished sixth" but dismissed as the new normal, the platform and now if we don't better that we've failed.

    There's occasional whines about Leicester on this forum, but I have absolutely no doubt that had we done what Leicester had done, then this forum last season would have been absolute misery about how we had the chance to join the elite but blew it and what a disaster and we didn't invest and push on and etc etc etc.
    I think maybe you are right but for me personally if we had won the league I wouldn't really give a toss what we did for quite a few years afterwards.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    This is the Christmas, Easter and Birthday that the dinlows on this forum have been waiting for for so very, very long. Let them enjoy it.

    I KNEW I WAS RIGHT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT.

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.


    Just the same as, well, no football club on earth, ever.

    Well, this is their moment. Their perfect moment. Let them enjoy it.
    I don't think this is the case at all. There's slipping to mid table (acceptable to a degree) then there's slipping into a potential relegation battle and failing to address quite obvious flaws in the squad (attacking / creative midfield).

    We had an excellent chance to really cement ourselves in European football and really confirm ourselves as as the best of the rest, however complacency and arrogance (thinking it doesn't matter if Koeman goes, we're saints, we've got the black box, we can replace anyone) means that that has most likely gone.

    We are further from European football than we were the first season back in the PL.

    We could have followed the Tottenham's approach (of course they are a bigger club than us, but principle applies). Cement in EL, then build a squad to break into the CL. However it appears we've followed Swansea's.

    This post may come round to bite me on the ass come May, but from what I've seen so far (since about February), there is deep rooted issues at the club and it is going to be a long season.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    No one is ignoring them at all, just not feeling the need to post with such glee about it
    I don't think people post doom and gloom with "glee", that's just your interpretation. I certainly don't but I must admit I am very concerned at present because I don't think it is a case of just a few bad days at the office. The malaise runs deeper than that.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzhugh Fella View Post
    I don't think people post doom and gloom with "glee", that's just your interpretation. I certainly don't but I must admit I am very concerned at present because I don't think it is a case of just a few bad days at the office. The malaise runs deeper than that.
    Some do... see post 36 so i don`t repeat

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    I don't think this is the case at all. There's slipping to mid table (acceptable to a degree) then there's slipping into a potential relegation battle and failing to address quite obvious flaws in the squad (attacking / creative midfield).

    We had an excellent chance to really cement ourselves in European football and really confirm ourselves as as the best of the rest, however complacency and arrogance (thinking it doesn't matter if Koeman goes, we're saints, we've got the black box, we can replace anyone) means that that has most likely gone.

    We are further from European football than we were the first season back in the PL.

    We could have followed the Tottenham's approach (of course they are a bigger club than us, but principle applies). Cement in EL, then build a squad to break into the CL. However it appears we've followed Swansea's.

    This post may come round to bite me on the ass come May, but from what I've seen so far (since about February), there is deep rooted issues at the club and it is going to be a long season.
    This seems to be a fair assessment. Have to admit I'm worried too. The thought even crossed my mind that this club is so used to turmoil and rebuilding after transfer windows that this time the relative stability has plunged the players into a staid 'business as usual' approach without any appetite, and we're consequently getting overrun by other, more enthusiastic and energetic sides. This may also be enhanced by having a manager who may not be quite the kind of personality required, but who knows. They all look a bit complacent, and we may be in trouble against teams like Huddersfield, with their organisation and energy, or even Brighton, who seem to really give it a go. We'll all probably assume we'll win against teams like that, just by turning up. And then get turned over. Personally I'd like to see us resorting more to 'heart' type players like Sims when he recovers, so that at least pure effort and energy might get the crowd behind the team more and more results on the field. I'd drop Forster for being useless, and creating anxiety ahead of him. And I'd keep Gabbiadini on rather than do that knee-jerk substitution, but i'd actually play Long up with him to tire the defenders out and create space for him.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    I don't think this is the case at all. There's slipping to mid table (acceptable to a degree) then there's slipping into a potential relegation battle and failing to address quite obvious flaws in the squad (attacking / creative midfield).
    After 4 games of the seaaon, we are hardly in a position to say we are slipping to relegation any more than we are pushing for a European place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    We had an excellent chance to really cement ourselves in European football and really confirm ourselves as as the best of the rest, however complacency and arrogance (thinking it doesn't matter if Koeman goes, we're saints, we've got the black box, we can replace anyone) means that that has most likely gone.
    I suspect it was proving quite difficult to get players to sign long contracts when the manager was refusing. He's not a bad manager but he had flaws (Academy, favourites)

    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    We are further from European football than we were the first season back in the PL.
    We have 5 more points than after our first 4 games back in the PL

    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    We could have followed the Tottenham's approach (of course they are a bigger club than us, but principle applies). Cement in EL, then build a squad to break into the CL. However it appears we've followed Swansea's.
    We would have done had we been able to keep Poch. But he felt loyalty to Cortese and there's not much we could do about it. Continuity is the key though so throwing the baby out with the bath water after just 4 games is probably not the wisest move

    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    This post may come round to bite me on the ass come May,
    Lets hope so (no offence intended)

  44. #44

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    With the U23s it is simply down to the players not being good enough.

    Its pretty obvious to anyone who has watched them that the following players will never be PL quality: Bakary, Wood, Little, Cook, Barnes. Massive questions on the progress of Slattery who has more potential than those mentioned but isn't showing improvement.

    The first four of those will probably never play regular football above L2 level. Barnes possibly L1.

    They are also hampered by having few forward options with Sims and Hesketh injured and others who almost certainly won't make the grade (Seager and Olomola) out on loan.

    Hopefully in the current U18/16 generation there are some better prospects.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    With the U23s it is simply down to the players not being good enough.

    Its pretty obvious to anyone who has watched them that the following players will never be PL quality: Bakary, Wood, Little, Cook, Barnes. Massive questions on the progress of Slattery who has more potential than those mentioned but isn't showing improvement.

    The first four of those will probably never play regular football above L2 level. Barnes possibly L1.

    They are also hampered by having few forward options with Sims and Hesketh injured and others who almost certainly won't make the grade (Seager and Olomola) out on loan.

    Hopefully in the current U18/16 generation there are some better prospects.
    It's worth remembering that these guys were first recruited 10 years or so ago when we were at our lowest point in the league so a less attractive academy than before or since. It's a bit early to say these guys wont make it because they have already been sifted once or twice. They deserve to be where they are for the work they have put in to date. But I hear that in five years, we have a very strong batch coming through.

    Let's keep ou feet on the ground though. The benchmark is one academy player per year breaking through to the first team. With so many fans demnding big money signings it's not surprisingthat it's harder and harder for academy stars to break through.

  46. Default

    Do you have any ex-pros in mind?

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    I don't think this is the case at all. There's slipping to mid table (acceptable to a degree) then there's slipping into a potential relegation battle and failing to address quite obvious flaws in the squad (attacking / creative midfield).

    We had an excellent chance to really cement ourselves in European football and really confirm ourselves as as the best of the rest, however complacency and arrogance (thinking it doesn't matter if Koeman goes, we're saints, we've got the black box, we can replace anyone) means that that has most likely gone.

    We are further from European football than we were the first season back in the PL.

    We could have followed the Tottenham's approach (of course they are a bigger club than us, but principle applies). Cement in EL, then build a squad to break into the CL. However it appears we've followed Swansea's.

    This post may come round to bite me on the ass come May, but from what I've seen so far (since about February), there is deep rooted issues at the club and it is going to be a long season.
    Your post has proven my post completely, thanks for that.

    I said this:

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.

    And your response that this isn't the case goes on to say that:

    Being mid-table is now apparently "acceptable to a degree" . How generous of you.

    And yeah, we simply needed to cement ourselves as top 5/6/7 forever because we finished sixth once. Of course. Easy.

    Thanks for making my point for me.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    The thing that gets me is the idea that nothing is ever actually an achievement, it's just a platform that other achievements must then be delivered against without fail. Sixth to these people was never "brilliant, we've finished sixth" but dismissed as the new normal, the platform and now if we don't better that we've failed.

    There's occasional whines about Leicester on this forum, but I have absolutely no doubt that had we done what Leicester had done, then this forum last season would have been absolute misery about how we had the chance to join the elite but blew it and what a disaster and we didn't invest and push on and etc etc etc.


    Rather rammed home for me last season when people decided saints getting to a cup final wasn't all that impressive. As saints fans we wait years to get to a final then when we finally get one people start claiming we had an easy run in, other teams didn't try, it's a crap cup and cups are less important than finishing 7th anyway.

  49. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Your post has proven my post completely, thanks for that.

    I said this:

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.

    And your response that this isn't the case goes on to say that:

    Being mid-table is now apparently "acceptable to a degree" . How generous of you.

    And yeah, we simply needed to cement ourselves as top 5/6/7 forever because we finished sixth once. Of course. Easy.

    Thanks for making my point for me.

    Some peoples expectations are fuelled by some of the sound bytes coming from the club over the last few years. Personally I have never been taken in by them and I am happy to see us compete in the top league.

    What does upset me is watching dreadful football week after week with hardly a shot at goal in anger with some players seemingly disinterested. It was not so long ago that we were well regarded for our expansive football. You cannot blame supporters for getting agitated witnessing this week after week.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Your post has proven my post completely, thanks for that.

    I said this:

    These people genuinely think that our football club, once it had finished sixth for the first time in 30 odd years, would never, ever slip below that level ever again and just keep progressing and progressing and progressing without failure, forever.

    And your response that this isn't the case goes on to say that:

    Being mid-table is now apparently "acceptable to a degree" . How generous of you.

    And yeah, we simply needed to cement ourselves as top 5/6/7 forever because we finished sixth once. Of course. Easy.

    Thanks for making my point for me.
    I don't know if you've misunderstood my point or just ignored it, but I'll rephrase it for you.

    A slight drop off for a season is acceptable, dropping dramatically towards (what I think) will be a relegation battle this year isn't.

    Like it or not, ambitions change with success. The club feed our apparent ambition down our throats, so why is it unacceptable to think we should be up there? Especially as we've had a taste of it for the last 2 seasons.

    If you're happy to float around 17th-10th every year then that's up to you. Personally (and I'm sure I'm not alone), I expect more.

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